Bard optimization

[Warior4356]

So I am in a roleplay heavy game and I need help building a bard.

I asked about the typical build 2 SC and virtuoso 9 along with bard 9. However the DM ruled that SC requires to be advanced to get the casting. So I am torn either go bard 9 virtuoso 10 bard 1 or the same thing with sublime chord.

With the books he uses I can use the virtuoso from 3 or 3.5 if that matters. I want to make something good but not broken.

Thanks in advance for your help. Any and all input is appreciated.

EDIT:Sheet link
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=98539

[Troacctid]

If you cannot advance Sublime Chord casting with a prestige class (which is not how the rules work, but I can't really blame your DM for wanting to nerf Sublime Chord's interaction with prestige classes, since it is an overpowered class to begin with and the interaction with prestige classes violates the spirit of the class while also giving it a huge boost in power that it really does not need), then you should just max out Sublime Chord. Nothing you could possibly get from Virtuoso is better than the high-level spells you get from Sublime Chord. It's not even a remotely close comparison.

Look at the class features of Virtuoso. Then look at the list of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells that are available to Wizards and Sorcerers. Go ahead, browse some of your options for spells known. I'll wait. Now compare them, side by side, to what you'd get from that other class that is not Sublime Chord. Once you do the legwork, it should be blindingly obvious which option is superior. Like that 10th level Virtuoso ability? True Seeing? Guess what? Sublime Chord gets that too--at 3rd level. Or the 9th level Virtuoso ability, Dominate Person? Sublime Chords get it at 1st level.

[Warior4356]

Alright thank you. What about feats/skills? I am at first level and have an int bonus of plus two so 32 points. For roleplay reason a point is in sense motive, perform string, and perform singing. I am non human so I have 1 feat to take I took melodic casting, but I am open to change that.

Or anything else or building a bard really. Thanks again for your detailed response. :smallsmile:

EDIT:Put a link to the sheet in the OP

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Even if you can't use another prestige class to advance Sublime Chord casting, it's worth taking over any of the alternatives. You can't start taking it until your 11th level, since you need its prerequisites before you start taking it, so it's just a matter of figuring out what those first ten levels will be. It really depends on what you want the character to do.

My recommendation would be a Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, (Savage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) ) Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration and Melodic Casting starting out. Pick up Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), whether with a flaw or at 3rd, and trade Gather Information for Handle Animal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) if possible. Trade Hypnotism for Healing Hymn in CC, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2, trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song in CM, and trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart in ECS. If you're good/exalted you can take Words of Creation and an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4). That runestaff can be an Elvencraft (Composite) Longbow from Races of the Wild, which can be used as both a staff and a longbow. You'll need to buy masterwork three times for that, but it should also be able to hold three wand chambers from Dungeonscape.

You'll want eight levels of Bard, but more than that is a bit of a waste. For those last two levels prior to Sublime Chord, it sort of depends on your alignment. If you're not good aligned you should dip a single level of Mindbender. A single level of Dragon Devotee in Races of the Dragon gives you +2 Cha and +1 natural armor. A single level of Sorcerer with the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level can switch your Dragonfire Inspiration to sonic damage, which is even better if you cast Creaking Cacophony, and you can use wands of Sorcerer spells such as Wings of Cover. Per the Rules Compendium spell completion and spell trigger items take the same action to activate as the casting time of the spell being used. In any case you may want to take one or both dips before your eighth Bard level.

Make it a priority to get a Badge of Valor in MIC as early as possible, which adds +1 to your Inspire Courage, or +1d6 to your Dragonfire Inspiration. Also pick up the spell Inspirational Boost in SC for another +1 or +1d6 to Inspire Courage. Keep in mind that your Wild Cohort and ranged weapon attacks benefit from your Inspire Courage as well. Your spells should include Glitterdust and Haste, with a nice mix of social spells and situational spells, but I would avoid additional combat spells until you hit Sublime Chord. You can pick up a few of the Raiment of the Four set in MIC for access to Magic Missile and Fireball. Eternal Wands in MIC are usable by anyone who can cast arcane spells, regardless of what spell it contains.

[Warior4356]

Even if you can't use another prestige class to advance Sublime Chord casting, it's worth taking over any of the alternatives. You can't start taking it until your 11th level, since you need its prerequisites before you start taking it, so it's just a matter of figuring out what those first ten levels will be. It really depends on what you want the character to do.

My recommendation would be a Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, (Savage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) ) Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration and Melodic Casting starting out. Pick up Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), whether with a flaw or at 3rd, and trade Gather Information for Handle Animal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/2*0070228a) if possible. Trade Hypnotism for Healing Hymn in CC, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2, trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song in CM, and trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart in ECS. If you're good/exalted you can take Words of Creation and an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4). That runestaff can be an Elvencraft (Composite) Longbow from Races of the Wild, which can be used as both a staff and a longbow. You'll need to buy masterwork three times for that, but it should also be able to hold three wand chambers from Dungeonscape.

You'll want eight levels of Bard, but more than that is a bit of a waste. For those last two levels prior to Sublime Chord, it sort of depends on your alignment. If you're not good aligned you should dip a single level of Mindbender. A single level of Dragon Devotee in Races of the Dragon gives you +2 Cha and +1 natural armor. A single level of Sorcerer with the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level can switch your Dragonfire Inspiration to sonic damage, which is even better if you cast Creaking Cacophony, and you can use wands of Sorcerer spells such as Wings of Cover. Per the Rules Compendium spell completion and spell trigger items take the same action to activate as the casting time of the spell being used. In any case you may want to take one or both dips before your eighth Bard level.

Make it a priority to get a Badge of Valor in MIC as early as possible, which adds +1 to your Inspire Courage, or +1d6 to your Dragonfire Inspiration. Also pick up the spell Inspirational Boost in SC for another +1 or +1d6 to Inspire Courage. Keep in mind that your Wild Cohort and ranged weapon attacks benefit from your Inspire Courage as well. Your spells should include Glitterdust and Haste, with a nice mix of social spells and situational spells, but I would avoid additional combat spells until you hit Sublime Chord. You can pick up a few of the Raiment of the Four set in MIC for access to Magic Missile and Fireball. Eternal Wands in MIC are usable by anyone who can cast arcane spells, regardless of what spell it contains.

I need to tread carefully, my dm will figuratively throw a book at me if he smells min maxing. But the rune staff I really like, will look into that. Race cant be changed I am afraid and variants of any sort are out. Dm's rules. Also nothing from eberon, he hates that setting. I think sublime chord is good enough I am not going to take a dip before hand, just take 10 levels of bard. My question is melodic casting a bad feat, or should I try to switch for words of creation? Items are usually okay though. Like I said he is roleplay heavy and dislike optimization. Do I need to think about moving some skills for use magic device? I don't see Anything I could move since I really want those social skills.

[Troacctid]

Melodic Casting is an excellent feat. Words of Creation is great too, but you cannot meet its prerequisites at 1st level--it requires a base Will save of +5 or better, so you won't be able to get it until Bard 6. You'll have to save it for later.

Another feat that I would definitely recommend for a Bard is Obtain Familiar, from Complete Arcane. You can take it starting at 3rd level. It lets you summon a familiar that shares all of your skill ranks. This is effectively a +2 to all your best skills, since it can assist you on your checks. And if you have skills like Sleight of Hand, you can pull off some nice tag-team tricks--you Fascinate the mark while your familiar picks his pocket. Furthermore, you can get a lot of utility out of your familiar's abilities. Bats, for example, have blindsense out to 20 feet, which is superb for spotting out invisible enemies, and quite nice for preventing ambushes. Ravens can speak, which allows them to activate command-word items like wands if you have enough ranks in Use Magic Device--that's potentially a whole extra turn's worth of spellcasting for you to abuse.

Use Magic Device won't be useful at 1st level, though, because you have no magic devices to use. Keep it in mind as an option for later, once you have more money to work with.

Make sure you have 5 ranks in the skills that give you relevant synergy bonuses. In particular, you'll want 5 in Sense Motive, Bluff, and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) for +6 to Diplomacy, and 5 ranks in Knowledge (History) for +2 to Bardic Knowledge.

Dragonfire Inspiration is one of the more powerful routes you can take, but it does do a lot of extra damage, and it might make your DM skittish. Since you're the wrong race for it anyway, I'd probably just stick to regular Inspire Courage, which is still pretty good. Pick up the appropriate magic items Biffoniacus_Furiou mentioned when you get the chance, use Inspirational Boost, and make sure you have a masterwork instrument from Complete Adventurer.

[atemu1234]

I need to tread carefully, my dm will figuratively throw a book at me if he smells min maxing. But the rune staff I really like, will look into that. Race cant be changed I am afraid and variants of any sort are out. Dm's rules. Also nothing from eberon, he hates that setting. I think sublime chord is good enough I am not going to take a dip before hand, just take 10 levels of bard. My question is melodic casting a bad feat, or should I try to switch for words of creation? Items are usually okay though. Like I said he is roleplay heavy and dislike optimization. Do I need to think about moving some skills for use magic device? I don't see Anything I could move since I really want those social skills.

What's the optimization level of the group? Because if it's in line with the group, then there shouldn't be an issue. If it's not, then let us know.

[Warior4356]

The group is on the low end of optimization, I am going to be the primary arcane Spell caster. As a bard. We have a paladin, a sorc who is multiclassing monk, a barbarian (very new player), a rogue, and possible a cleric but thats a dm pc and might leave after the first adventure. Honestly as long as it avoids the stuff the dm hate, as long as it is optimization not Min-Maxing, it should be okay. I like the idea of the rune staff, but I had a question as it takes spell slots to use, and I am a spontaneous caster and need to know the spell to get it in the staff, what do I gain from having it?

Also Troacctid, I wanted to take more skill ranks to buff diplomacy, but I need a lot of skills to get sublime chord. I don't know what I could move to get the synergy bonuses unless maybe after I get profession astrologer I could lay a few down? My sheet is in the OP, what would you move to make room if anything? I would not like to give up sense motive if I can help it, it really helps in social situations in my opinion.

As an update I have to decide on my stuff for first level by the end of tomorrow, as our next session is Saturday.

[Bronk]

If you want more diplomacy, I'd ditch 'Profession Astrologer' or at most take 1 rank if you really want it for some in game reason. You could let someone else do the listening, and stick with just singing as your perform skill.

You could also switch intelligence (15) with Wisdom (16) for extra skills.

If you aren't strapped for feats, you could also take Nymph's Kiss at level 1, which gives you +1 skill rank per level, +2 to all charisma related checks (like diplomacy, bluff, SM, perform, etc.) and a few other things.

[Warior4356]

If you want more diplomacy, I'd ditch 'Profession Astrologer' or at most take 1 rank if you really want it for some in game reason. You could let someone else do the listening, and stick with just singing as your perform skill.

You could also switch intelligence (15) with Wisdom (16) for extra skills.

If you aren't strapped for feats, you could also take Nymph's Kiss at level 1, which gives you +1 skill rank per level, +2 to all charisma related checks (like diplomacy, bluff, SM, perform, etc.) and a few other things.

I will look at nymphs kiss, not sure what the gm's stance on that will be though. Also he is a bit of a stickler about alignment, so as I dont often act good, keeping it might be hard. I cant drop the second perform as it is for a roleplay reason. Astrology and listen are for the prestige class sublime chord, and I can't change my stats at this point either.

[Troacctid]

You have 8 skill points per level and Sublime Chord only demands that you keep two skills maxed, plus Perform, which you were maxing anyway. You should have enough points left over to fit an extra 5 here or there. Remember, you have 10 levels to meet those requirements. That's only 48/104 skill points spoken for. Plenty of wiggle room.

[Flickerdart]

Remember that you only need 7th level bard casting to get into Sublime Chord, and having better bard casting than that doesn't really benefit you at all. So feel free to jump around a bit in the first 10 levels, as long as the classes you're hitting have Arcana, and Listen as class skills. Bard 8 is still decent because of Inspire Courage +2 if you're into that sort of thing, though, but levels 9 and 10 do nothing for you.

[Warior4356]

Well diplomacy should be maxed, as well as buff and is sense motive worth maxing or just take 5 ranks? What about spellcraft? 6 ranks or max it?

[Warior4356]

Remember that you only need 7th level bard casting to get into Sublime Chord, and having better bard casting than that doesn't really benefit you at all. So feel free to jump around a bit in the first 10 levels, as long as the classes you're hitting have Arcana, and Listen as class skills. Bard 8 is still decent because of Inspire Courage +2 if you're into that sort of thing, though, but levels 9 and 10 do nothing for you.

What about inspire greatness? Also dipping into prestige classes/ classes I want to avoid if I can help it. My GM is very anti min/max.

[Flickerdart]

What about inspire greatness? Also dipping into prestige classes/ classes I want to avoid if I can help it. My GM is very anti min/max.
Inspire Greatness sucks. Courage is the only song you'll ever want to use, basically.

There are a bunch of 3-level PrCs (like Squire of Legend, Ruathar, or Human Paragon) if your DM is a buzzkill. So you can go Bard 7/PrC 3/Sublime Chord 10.

[Warior4356]

Again unless I get a big benefit and it does not sound min/maxy I am not going to take more than one prestige class.

Right now I am the most concerned about skills and proper allocation

[danzibr]

Oh man.

So I was in a party once. Low optimization except for me. I optimized IC and went into SC. I was giving +absurd amounts to hit and damage, and fire damage on top of that. And had battlefield control with all the nifty Wiz/Sorc spells. In all seriousness, you might find yourself far too powerful for your group.

[Hiro Quester]

Inspire greatness is pretty good. I used to cast it all the time when I played a bard. The bonuses are okay, but the front line will thank you for the temp hit points.

Esp if you learn harmonize spell (2level bard spell, 10 min/level) enables you to start bardic music as a move action. Could craft a continuous item of Harmonize,even.

With that plus melodic casting, you can sing IC and cast Haste in round 1, then play inspire greatness and cast another spell in round 2. Get the horn that's part of the regalia of the hero in MIC (also badge of valor) to use when you play IG to add an extra 50 hp on top for your main Tank.

However, you should contrast that with what you might get with a dip in a different prc for levels 9 and 10. Two levels in swiftblade if you gish. Or war weaver for buffing. Or even battledancer for CHA to AC.

However another point for Bard 10 is more 3rd and 4th level spells. There are some great 4th level spells to choose from.. Sirine's grace is a must: boost to CHA and DEX, plus CHA to AC, plus free movement in water and water breathing.

[Warior4356]

Well as much as I like the sound of battledancer, what about multiclass xp penalties? Also warweaver sounds alittle cheesy, I think I will just stick with Bard 10, Sublime Chord 10. Now if I am going that route should I change my skill allocation? Also is sense motive worthy of maxing? or should I just take 5 ranks? Additionally UMD? worth making if I am going sublime chord? Also what about the feat versatile performer, for getting String and wind instruments. For various magic instruments. Right now the feats I am looking at are, Melodic casting, or nymphs kiss at 1st I am not sure if the gm will allow nymphs kiss but moving on. at third I am thinking either versatile performer or an ancestral relic?

EDIT: As my Gm is rather stringent about alignemnts, I am not going to touch the stuff from Book of exalted deeds. So as a elf, (yes I know its suboptimal, but its set in stone). I get 7 feats, My list so far is ( in no specific order):
1. Melodic Casting
2. Leadership
3. Versatile Spellcaster
4. Lingering Song
5. Versatile Performer
6. Dragonsong (maybe)
7. Jack of All Trades (maybe) or Obtain Familiar (again maybe)

[Hiro Quester]

If you need to choose between Sense Motive and UMD I would UMD. You spell selection is limited, so loading up on wands and scrolls for useful spells norton your list offers you more versatility. There are plenty of useful 2 and 3 level spells on the wizard or cleric list you might benefit from. I used a wand of Heroics a lot to get a bonus fighter feat for certain situations.

I never found versatile performer that appealing. Put most of your perform ranks in sing which you can do while hands hold other things, and a few ranks in other instruments.

And versatile spellcaster seems meh. If you choose spells well, it's unlikely you'll feel okay about depleting one level to cast an extra spell of higher level. Extend spell to burn a higher level spell for double duration might be mechanically more efficient. Esp at higher levels when 24 hour duration spells are available.

Unless you want to use snowflake wardance feat, for awesome melee. Then ranks in dance matter to the duration.

Leadership is possibly the most broken feat in 3.5. So you should run that part of the plan by your DM. That can be too much.

Your weapon should be an echoblade. I never cared for the harmonizing part much. With lingering song you don't need it.

[Troacctid]

I would personally choose Sense Motive over UMD. In order for UMD to be good, you have to invest a lot of money and a lot of thought into it...and then most of your work ends up going out the window once you hit 11th level and add all the Sorcerer/Wizard spells to your class spell list anyway. Bards aren't Rogues--they don't need a UMD check for every single wand. On the other hand, Sense Motive is a vital skill if you want to be the party face. When you're doing Diplomacy, it's very important to know whether the other guy is on the level.

[Hiro Quester]

I would personally choose Sense Motive over UMD. In order for UMD to be good, you have to invest a lot of money and a lot of thought into it...and then most of your work ends up going out the window once you hit 11th level and add all the Sorcerer/Wizard spells to your class spell list anyway. Bards aren't Rogues--they don't need a UMD check for every single wand. On the other hand, Sense Motive is a vital skill if you want to be the party face. When you're doing Diplomacy, it's very important to know whether the other guy is on the level.

Sense motive is important. But Diplomacy and bluff are more important as the face. I had the latter maxed and 5 ranks in SM, and played a somewhat effective face.

And as I played it (and as our DM interpreted it) you don't get all the Sorcerer/wizard spells on your list. Just the ones over level 4. So all the good wand spells still need UMD checks. And for

[Warior4356]

Okay I am going to only take 5 ranks in sense motive and max umd.