Starting with no class

[ReD_Exorcist]

A Player of mine wants to play as a Goliath with a level 1 adjustment. They are all starting at level 1 though, making it so if he plays the Goliath he well have no class. How do I determine stuff like starting gold, hp and feats?

[bjoern]

Well the easiest thing to do is just have him have 1 level in a class and don't let him levelup until level 3. (The +1 LA)

Alternatively, he can have no class.
No skill points , no class skills, no feats , no proficiencies, no BAB, no saves, no starting gold.

And 1 HP so he isn't dead.


Option 1 works better I think.

[Necroticplague]

You could simply start him at first level, then calculate all the XP he gets as if he was 2nd level. Everyone else will catch up soon enough, since he gets less XP for being higher level.

[Zweisteine]

You could simply start him at first level, then calculate all the XP he gets as if he was 2nd level. Everyone else will catch up soon enough, since he gets less XP for being higher level.
This.

This is exactly what the rules say to do in such a situation.

Also, consider allowing LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), which reduces your LA for a small amount of experience.

[BilltheCynic]

I would give him a savage progression. Basically, you strip off most of the race's best features at level 1 but you let the players 'level up' their race until they get everything.

For example, suppose your player wanted to play a goliath barbarian. You would take the goliath, change the stats to +2 str, -2 dex, then strip off all other racial traits except Powerful Build. The player has the stats of a 1st level barbarian, but is playing as a much weaker race. When the player gets to level 2, instead of becoming a level 2 barbarian he becomes a level 1 Barbarian/1 goliath. His goliath 'level' does not add any hit die, save bonuses, or BAB, but it gains the rest of the goliath's racial traits, in this case +2 str and +2 con, mountain movement, acclimated, and +2 sense motive. This allows the player to achieve the same ECL without being overpowered at the beginning.

Additionally, I would count this 'goliath level' as basically leveling LA and allow for LA buyoff. Most racial traits don't scale all that well and the character ends up being significantly weaker than an LA 0 character in the long run. LA buyoff helps to smooth this out.

For more on savage progression, check out Savage Species.

[urokia]

For example, suppose your player wanted to play a goliath barbarian. You would take the goliath, change the stats to +2 str, -2 dex, then strip off all other racial traits except Powerful Build.

I would recommend powerful build being one of the things stripped off. Powerful build is one of the most powerful things about being a goliath other than the barbarian substitution levels. I can't think of any race with 0 LA that has powerful build.

[zergling.exe]

I would recommend powerful build being one of the things stripped off. Powerful build is one of the most powerful things about being a goliath other than the barbarian substitution levels. I can't think of any race with 0 LA that has powerful build.

And probably one of the main reasons to pick goliath in the first place. They may end up arguing that they don't want to take the level adjustment if you give them powerful build right out of the gate. Give acclimated instead, and when they 'level up' give them powerful build and describe it as them finally having the right proportion to make use of bigger weapons.

[Troacctid]

Another option is to use the variant from page 190 of Player's Guide to Faerun. It essentially gives you a negative level, which you get rid of and replace with the standard level adjustment the first time you would level up. So at level 1 you're a Goliath with one class level, but you get -1 to just about everything you do, and at level 2, you're still a Goliath with one class level, but you no longer have the penalty.

[OldTrees1]

Yet another option is:

To give the Goliath 1 level in Monsterous Humanoid(see Monster Manuel for details) that is replaced with a class level when the party reaches level 2 instead of leveling.


But I would go with letting the Goliath be ECL 2 until the party reaches 3rd level.

[atemu1234]

Another option is to use the variant from page 190 of Player's Guide to Faerun. It essentially gives you a negative level, which you get rid of and replace with the standard level adjustment the first time you would level up. So at level 1 you're a Goliath with one class level, but you get -1 to just about everything you do, and at level 2, you're still a Goliath with one class level, but you no longer have the penalty.

I'd go with this one, to be honest.

[prufock]

One more option: make him a commoner for level 1. Base attack is +0, all saves are +0, he gets no class features, 2 HP (average of 1d4, since he's using NPC rules), 2+int skill points from a weak skill list, no armor proficiency, and only 1 simple weapon proficiency. When the party gains level 2, he replaces his level of commoner with a level of a PC class.

[KillianHawkeye]

Alternatively, don't allow your players to bring a level 2 character to a level 1 game?

[Riculf]

Alternatively, don't allow your players to bring a level 2 character to a level 1 game?

Personally, I'd avoid this option :smallbiggrin:
In my experience people want to play the game they want. If you can accommodate it then everyone can be happy (although that doesn't always happen either) :smallwink:

[Andezzar]

Also, consider allowing LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), which reduces your LA for a small amount of experience.This won't happen until ECL 4 though.

[TheCrowing1432]

Uh....

Thats not how level adjustment works.

You're thinking of Racial Hit Dice, which Goliaths dont have.

Goliaths ALWAYS have a class level in something.

LA +1 Means that on the experience point table for encounters, he is considered a level 2 character for the purposes of determining how much experience he is eligible for solving the encounter.

He still needs 1000 experience points to level up from 1 to 2, though his LA will make his progression slower then other characters.

[Curmudgeon]

You're thinking of Racial Hit Dice, which Goliaths dont have.
Well, that makes no sense at all. Every character has some number of racial hit dice (usually 1) before their first class level; that's how they exist. Many playable races (mostly Humanoids) swap a single hit die for their first class level, and aren't allowed to retain racial HD once they select a class. But that racial HD is definitely there to be swapped.

[TheCrowing1432]

Well, that makes no sense at all. Every character has some number of racial hit dice (usually 1) before their first class level; that's how they exist. Many playable races (mostly Humanoids) swap a single hit die for their first class level, and aren't allowed to retain racial HD once they select a class. But that racial HD is definitely there to be swapped.

Thats incorrect.

Most NPC's have NPC Class levels and NPC hit dice. Even the ordinary people walking down the street have class hit dice, in commoner, expert, or warrior, depending on what they are.

Hell, even Racial Hit Dice could be seen as taking class levels, because you're technically taking levels in "Monster"

But Goliaths dont have Racial Hit Dice as they were meant to be a playable race from the getgo, so Goliaths either have NPC Class levels, or PC levels.

You cant have a Goliath with levels in just "Goliath"

Now if it were a Minotaur or a Gnoll on the other hand who actually DO have racial hit dice, you need to continue their advancement in their monster classes before you can take levels in player classes.

[Curmudgeon]

But Goliaths dont have Racial Hit Dice as they were meant to be a playable race from the getgo, so Goliaths either have NPC Class levels, or PC levels.

You cant have a Goliath with levels in just "Goliath"
Where's the rule which says so? Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids. The rules for that type say:
A monstrous humanoid has the following features.

8-sided Hit Dice.

What that type doesn't have is a rule like the following:
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws. 1 HD Humanoid creatures can't retain that racial hit die when they take a class level (the swap isn't optional), but I don't know of a rule preventing Monstrous Humanoids from keeping their racial HD. If you can cite a source which backs up your claim, I'd be happy to know about it.

[Troacctid]

The notion that all creatures must start with at least 1 racial hit die is something that is not supported in the rules as far as I can tell (unless you can point to a source for it). Many creatures have fractional hit dice, or only have hit dice from class levels. By RAW, you only have the hit dice appropriate to your race, as listed in your monster entry. How many racial hit dice are listed for Goliaths? The answer is, they don't have a monster entry, so there is no listing. The rules don't tell you how many racial hit dice to add, so you default to the character creation rules from the Player's Handbook, which say to take a class level at 1st level. (And indeed, that is what the sample Goliath NPCs do.)

[Curmudgeon]

TBy RAW, you only have the hit dice appropriate to your race, as listed in your monster entry. How many racial hit dice are listed for Goliaths? The answer is, they don't have a monster entry, so there is no listing.
Humans also have no monster entry. However, we know that every 1 HD Humanoid must follow the rule that they exchange their 1 HD of Humanoid for their first class level. Thus we can back-compute that Humans had 1 racial HD before choosing a class level because they ended up with class levels and no racial HD left over.

Goliaths don't have any listing, but we do know two things about them: they don't end up with any fractional HD, and they must follow the Monstrous Humanoid type rules unless they've got an exception built into the rules somewhere.

[Troacctid]

Which support your interpretation if the monstrous humanoid type rules set a generalized minimum number of hit dice, but they don't. And if we back-compute Goliaths the same way we might for humans (using sample NPCs), we would be forced to conclude that Goliaths either have zero RHD or use the same HD exchange rules as humanoids, since the sample Goliaths have only class levels, no RHD.

[Andezzar]

Isn't there a rule saying that the actual rules take precedence over examples created by (supposedly) following the rules? Just look at all the the false monster manual entries. Do those create an exception or even change a rule in general? I think not.

[Troacctid]

Yes, but in this case no general rule exists. (At least not that I'm aware of; if there is one, I'd be interested in a citation.) So all we can do is extrapolate.

(How do we know they don't end up with fractional HD, for example?)

[Thurbane]

Depending on the class he eventually wants to take, maybe have him start as an NPC class, then swap it for a PC class after he levels up.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Depending on the class he eventually wants to take, maybe have him start as an NPC class, then swap it for a PC class after he levels up.

Either this or Commoner regardless of what class they want to eventually play. If the party has say a human Fighter in it, warrior is too close in power and Goliathness is worth significantly more than a 1 Fighter feat.

[EyethatBinds]

This.

This is exactly what the rules say to do in such a situation.

Also, consider allowing LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), which reduces your LA for a small amount of experience.

Well, it would be but levels 1-3 get the same experience for all encounters.

[OldTrees1]

Which support your interpretation if the monstrous humanoid type rules set a generalized minimum number of hit dice, but they don't. And if we back-compute Goliaths the same way we might for humans (using sample NPCs), we would be forced to conclude that Goliaths either have zero RHD or use the same HD exchange rules as humanoids, since the sample Goliaths have only class levels, no RHD.

Since nothing alive can have 0 HD and Goliaths are alive, we should look at the 2nd possibility.

Namely that Goliaths have 1 RHD that they trade in for 1 class level just like all "no RHD" races.

[Andezzar]

Namely that Goliaths have 1 RHD that they trade in for 1 class level just like all "no RHD" races.Please quote that rule. I'm not aware of such a rule for anything but humanoids.

[OldTrees1]

Please quote that rule. I'm not aware of such a rule for anything but humanoids.

Which rule? The no monster stat block has 0HD rule or the example Goliath NPCs do not have RHD rule? Be careful not to infer more than was implied.

[Andezzar]

The rule that Goliaths trade their 1 RHD for a class HD.

[OldTrees1]

The rule that Goliaths trade their 1 RHD for a class HD.

See:
No stat block exists with 0 HD
Example Goliath NPCs do not retain RHD

[Troacctid]

You can have zero racial hit dice without having zero hit dice--it just means your hit dice are derived from your class levels.

So what did you have before you had a class level? The answer is, you didn't exist, or rather, you were a creature without a statblock or character sheet. Races of Stone only provides stats for adult Goliaths; they follow the rules for creating PCs, and the rules say a PC must be at or above the minimum age for adulthood. There is no RAW way to stat an infant Goliath--I mean, unless you want them to spring forth from the womb already medium-sized with powerful build. As far as I know, this is true for infants of almost all races; it's just a gap in the rules. If those rules existed, they would probably explain what happens to the racial HD when the child grows up. But they don't.

[OldTrees1]

You can have zero racial hit dice without having zero hit dice--it just means your hit dice are derived from your class levels.

So what did you have before you had a class level? The answer is, you didn't exist, or rather, you were a creature without a statblock or character sheet. Races of Stone only provides stats for adult Goliaths; they follow the rules for creating PCs, and the rules say a PC must be at or above the minimum age for adulthood. There is no RAW way to stat an infant Goliath--I mean, unless you want them to spring forth from the womb already medium-sized with powerful build. As far as I know, this is true for infants of almost all races; it's just a gap in the rules. If those rules existed, they would probably explain what happens to the racial HD when the child grows up. But they don't.

From the Humanoids with Class levels rule we know that Humans had 1 RHD before trading it for 1 Class level (although we can also readily assume that they were unstatted before they had 1 RHD).

[One Step Two]

The rule that Goliaths trade their 1 RHD for a class HD.

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#otherStatisticsforMonsters) says the following: Creatures with Hit Dice 1 or Less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They skills and feats appropriate to a 1st-level character (even if they have a level adjustment)

[TheCrowing1432]

You can have zero racial hit dice without having zero hit dice--it just means your hit dice are derived from your class levels.

So what did you have before you had a class level? The answer is, you didn't exist, or rather, you were a creature without a statblock or character sheet. Races of Stone only provides stats for adult Goliaths; they follow the rules for creating PCs, and the rules say a PC must be at or above the minimum age for adulthood. There is no RAW way to stat an infant Goliath--I mean, unless you want them to spring forth from the womb already medium-sized with powerful build. As far as I know, this is true for infants of almost all races; it's just a gap in the rules. If those rules existed, they would probably explain what happens to the racial HD when the child grows up. But they don't.

I think this is where NPC Classes come in. Infants and Children would simply have class levels in commoner if you had to stat them for some reason.


The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#otherStatisticsforMonsters) says the following: Creatures with Hit Dice 1 or Less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They skills and feats appropriate to a 1st-level character (even if they have a level adjustment)

^Exactly.

[Andezzar]

I think this is where NPC Classes come in. Infants and Children would simply have class levels in commoner if you had to stat them for some reason. AFAIK the rules don't evebn suggest it works like that.

[One Step Two]

I think this is where NPC Classes come in. Infants and Children would simply have class levels in commoner if you had to stat them for some reason.

Some DM's take it further, where pesants or other common NPCs have 0 hit points, because they exist purely to act as scenery, or someone to talk to. If I wanted to make a small hamlet, I wouldn't derive stats for every single one of them. I might assign names and roles to people there, and if he's lucky, the Mayor might have a level in Aristocrat, but they're non-plot critical. Attacking them kills them to highlight that whoever did it is a total monster, because these people are totally defenseless.

[Grek]

Have him start with one level in an NPC class that gets replaced with his real class at level 2.

[General Sajaru]

I'd let him just play the level 1 and penalize his XP. As for gold and such, as a first level character (not ECL), he gets starting gear/gold.

[noparlpf]

A Player of mine wants to play as a Goliath with a level 1 adjustment. They are all starting at level 1 though, making it so if he plays the Goliath he well have no class. How do I determine stuff like starting gold, hp and feats?

If you were running a higher-level game I'd suggest LA buyoff; I calculated XP progression for LA +0, LA +1, and LA +2 and it turns out that using LA buyoff, LA +1 becomes irrelevant at level 12. When doing character creation at level 12 or higher, you can just treat LA +1 races as LA +0. This is based on the standard model of ~13 level-appropriate encounters (encounter level = party level) per level (although as it turns out, a few levels end up taking 12 or 14 encounters). But you're starting at level 1, so ignore that.

I actually converted goliath into a 1 RHD race instead, because I think LA is a dumb system (at higher LA, it's rarely worth the loss of HD and feats, and at high LA and high RHD it's impossible to even use). I just took the base traits for the Monstrous Humanoid type and stuck them on the goliath's racial traits. Let me go dig that up...

Goliath (Medium Monstrous Humanoid)
1d8 HD
BaB +1
Fort +0
Ref +2
Will +2
(2+Int)x4 skill points
Proficient with simple weapons
Proficient with no armor or shields

Racial traits:
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con
30' base land speed
Powerful Build
Mountain Movement
Acclimated
+2 racial bonus to Sense Motive