Is there even a reason to play as Sorcerers any more?

[13ones]

So with Arcanist out as a core class [as in not a 3pp] is there even any reason to take a sorcerer? Like I love the sorcerer thematically but as a class I feel as if it is almost entirely out-classed by the Arcanist in every way possible. Am I accurate?

[Pex]

More spells per day.

Preference of bloodline powers.

Some people don't want to be bothered to think about changing spells each day and will just pick the ones they want to cast most often anyway.

If human alternative favored class bonus is used your character will have a lot of spells known for enough versatility.

[Doc_Maynot]

Wis Based Arcane Casting (Arcanists can't take wildblooded bloodlines, IIRC)
And for better prestigeing (Spellbook users don't gain new spells known from advancement from PrCs)

[Raven777]

The style. The flair. The pizzazz. The moxy. Being the universe's favorite child.

[grarrrg]

Sorcerers are still Single Stat dependent, whereas a fair number of Arcanist Exploits run off of CHA.


Arcanists can't take wildblooded bloodlines

^ This ^ matters for a few of the better Wildbloodlines.


They also have a wider variety of 'book support', in that it's a Core-book class and has been out longer. Sorcerer's are that much more likely to get "splat-love". And for those 3.P players out there, the Arcanist has NO support outside of PF books.

[Jack_Simth]

So with Arcanist out as a core class [as in not a 3pp] is there even any reason to take a sorcerer? Like I love the sorcerer thematically but as a class I feel as if it is almost entirely out-classed by the Arcanist in every way possible. Am I accurate?
Mostly. There's still some Sorcerer-specific multiclass stuff due to the specific casting ability score. The Arcanist is slightly more MAD than is the Sorcerer (Int/Con/Cha/Dex vs. Cha/Con/Dex). There's a small number of Sorcerer-specific tricks that the Arcanist can't readily duplicate. Due to the bloodline spells, the Sorcerer has a slightly larger number of spells available at any given moment than does the Arcanist.

Plus of course the stuff others have mentioned.

[Blackhawk748]

I think the better question is, "Is there a reason to play a Wizard anymore?" Im sure there are several, (being SAD comes to mind) but the Arcanist seems better at a casual glance.

At the OP, pretty much mirroring what everyone else said. First thing i thought of was more spells and fun bloodlines. I dont play a lot of PF so thats virtually all i got, besides the hilarious fact that they PrC better than spellbook casters. I always laugh when i remember that.

[Psyren]

I think the better question is, "Is there a reason to play a Wizard anymore?" Im sure there are several, (being SAD comes to mind) but the Arcanist seems better at a casual glance.

Exploiter Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/exploiter-wizard)

(also arcane discoveries)

[Blackhawk748]

Exploiter Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/exploiter-wizard)

(also arcane discoveries)

I figured there was a reason :smalltongue:, i just didnt know it because i dont play Wizards

[Psyren]

I figured there was a reason :smalltongue:, i just didnt know it because i dont play Wizards

The amusing part is that the Exploiter Wizard can use one of the exploits to get back the familiar they gave up :smalltongue:

But actually, the main reason is that wizards still get access to the next level of arcane spells before both of the others do.

[Kurald Galain]

I think the better question is, "Is there a reason to play a Wizard anymore?" Im sure there are several, (being SAD comes to mind) but the Arcanist seems better at a casual glance.

The main reason why the wizard is better is that he gets all spells a level earlier. That means that 50% of the sessions, he'll be casting higher level spells than the arcanist, and this is a big deal. This also means that the exploiter wizard archetype is arguably better than an actual arcanist.

Aside from that, the wizard's bonded item feature is a big mark in favor of versatility, although the arcanist can apparently grab one too via sorcerer bloodlines.

[Spore]

Also you can't possibly prepare any possible situation ever. I know a decent wizard has almost always some tricks up his sleeve, but the sorcerer more often than not has the more fitting answer on his block. That being said, I wouldn't play any spontaneous casters without the human/half-elf favored class option of more spells.

[atemu1234]

Also you can't possibly prepare any possible situation ever. I know a decent wizard has almost always some tricks up his sleeve, but the sorcerer more often than not has the more fitting answer on his block. That being said, I wouldn't play any spontaneous casters without the human/half-elf favored class option of more spells.

Just by numbers, though, a wizard could and should be better prepared than a sorcerer. It's their shtick.

[Spore]

Another point a player in my group made: A sorcerer's spells are free. They come baked in. As a wizard you can (and you should) always purchase scrolls or knowledge appropriate to your task at hand. If you slack off, your gameplay is hindered.

Example:
A 12th level wizard is expected to be able to terraform a battlefield to give a MAJOR advantage to the friendly defending army. The player however just shrugged and said: "I don't have the spells for that." after I have told the player twice that he just needs "Move Earth" or "Wall of Stone" to buy from the local 20th level wizard (who has to stay neutral but is very friendly towards the group, so the scrolls would cost a maximum of half price).

My oracle sacrificed the first 25.000 years of her afterlife to her god to provide an undead counterforce that saves countless lives and the country from annihilation from the neighboring empire. But the wizard can't be arsed to buy two pesky spells to provide the same benefit.

If you play a wizard, you get a large amount of "homework". Research spells that fit your playstyle and the needs your character will face. Sift through entire books of potential outsider allies to be summoned. Think about tactical advantages. Wizard is basically the class for the P&P player that takes his hobby very serious. :)

[Sgt. Cookie]

Pick a spell. Any spell. From any list. The Sorcerer can cast that spell.

Arcanist can only cast Wiz/Sorc spells.

[Peat]

The slow spell progression looks like a real kick in the teeth for an Arcanist. Yes, you have a massive bundle of tricks to tack on, but I've seen a few people say its notably slower than Wizard or Sorcerer to get going.

[Raven777]

Pick a spell. Any spell. From any list. The Sorcerer can cast that spell.

Arcanist can only cast Wiz/Sorc spells.

Ah... the seldom used "primarily" clause (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer#TOC-Spells)... Is it ever actually used?


A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

[Ravens_cry]

I would say it refers to the bloodline bonus spells, several of which are not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list normally or any arcane caster in some cases, but are arcane spells when the sorcerer casts them. No clue what it referred to in 3.5 though.

[Blackhawk748]

I would say it refers to the bloodline bonus spells, several of which are not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list normally or any arcane caster in some cases, but are arcane spells when the sorcerer casts them. No clue what it referred to in 3.5 though.

Basically it let you "research" spells from other lists.

[Psyren]

Thing is, if 100% of your spells come from a specific list, that is still "primarily" coming from that list. So that clause does not actually guarantee you get anything non-sorcerer. That outcome requires your GM to interpret it favorably.

[Eldonauran]

Ah... the seldom used "primarily" clause (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer#TOC-Spells)... Is it ever actually used?

It's a bit more than just that. See the bolded below.


A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

I've often allowed (and have been allowed) to have my sorcerer(s) learn useful spells they have been exposed to repeatedly. Like barkskin from a druid ally. Call Lightning. Even healing spells.

[Spore]

I've never heard of a sorcerer having other spells than sorcerer/wizard spells. But ... this seems interesting.

[Killer Angel]

It is, indeed. The problem is to find an open minded DM.

[Eldonauran]

Another little tidbit in the Magic section, Arcane Spells, Sorcerers and Bards:


A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list she now knows. With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring.

[Strormer]

As awesome as it sounds, I have a hard time buying that the sorcerer was intended to have access to anything they want, and I wouldn't allow it at my table. It's not like the sorcerer is weak without the option to literally do anything it damn well pleases.

[Psyren]

As previously stated, the sorcerer can have anything but the GM has to approve it. The method of "gaining an understanding through study" is not defined anywhere in the rules, so the GM has to devise a method that will grant this knowledge.

[Eldonauran]

As awesome as it sounds, I have a hard time buying that the sorcerer was intended to have access to anything they want, and I wouldn't allow it at my table. It's not like the sorcerer is weak without the option to literally do anything it damn well pleases.

Oh, definitely. I wouldn't allow a sorcerer to get ANY spell he wanted. Back in 3.5e, sorcerers (and bards, spontaneous arcane casters) were closely tied with dragons as a source for their spellcasting ability. In pathfinder, it is a bit more of an open field, but I think it plays into why they get this particular ability.


A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.
Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)

I'd allow a sorcerer to learn spells outside the wiz/sorc list but it depends highly on role play and investment. The character needs to have experienced the spell, identified it with spellcraft, researched it himself (or with the 'dusty old wizard that knows more about spell theory them himself) or have another really good reason to want that particular spell, perhaps he came to religion a bit later and doesn't want to multi-class. I'd allow him to start taking a few cleric spells (knowledge granted to him by his deity, or w/e), and even swap out known ones as he levels up.

I figure the developers wrote that option into the mechanics of the sorcerer (and even threw the bard a bone in the magic section) for a good reason. Why not take advantage of it if it will enhance the game?

[Elder_Basilisk]

Just by numbers, though, a wizard could and should be better prepared than a sorcerer. It's their shtick.

It depends on what you assume about preparation. If you assume advance warning and an ability to tailor their spell list to the situation, then the wizard should be better prepared than a sorcerer. On the other hand, if you assume that the wizard does not have advance warning of the day's challenges beyond maybe, "there be some monsters over there" or "today is a non-combat day" then that is not the case. In those cases, the wizard will be choosing daily spells with roughly the same criteria as a sorcerer choosing spells known: one set of spells that are generally expected to be useful. However, the wizard has to pick the number of spells to prepare (for example, two fireballs, one lightning bolt, and one haste) and when those are out, they're out. On the other hand, a sorceror can cast five haste spells or five fireballs if the situation warrants it.

Wizards have greater strategic flexibility. Give a wizard a day and he can do what you want him to do. Sorcerers have greater tactical flexibility. If you don't know what you need one day in advance, tactical flexibility is what will leave a sorcerer better prepared to deal with the day's challenges.

[Spore]

I guess it's intended to reward good roleplaying. Either that or it is trying to make spell research rules relevant. I could entirely see giving an sorcerer "Calm Animal" because he is very good with animals.

[Ravens_cry]

I've never heard of a sorcerer having other spells than sorcerer/wizard spells. But ... this seems interesting.

It didn't get very far, but a friend tried running what he called 'blue mage' campaign, where magic was acquired by being exposed to spells. You saw a spell go off, you made the spellcraft check, you got the spell.

[Psyren]

It didn't get very far, but a friend tried running what he called 'blue mage' campaign, where magic was acquired by being exposed to spells. You saw a spell go off, you made the spellcraft check, you got the spell.

So he was playing a Sha'ir? :smalltongue:

[Spore]

It didn't get very far, but a friend tried running what he called 'blue mage' campaign, where magic was acquired by being exposed to spells. You saw a spell go off, you made the spellcraft check, you got the spell.

That's a poor idea because if the checks get optimized suddenly all players have the exact same options and spells. Well done, you have a party of 6 clone casters now. Now enact Pamphlet 66 and kill all Paladins in the realm.

[Zanos]

Having played an Arcanist a bit, the class is extremely strong but there are a couple of downsides and misconceptions.

1. Arcanists don't really care about Charisma. The exploits that are based on it are mostly crap and there's no reason to take them. The Pseudo Arcane School and Bloodline Exploits can be good, but that's about it.
2. Arcanists suffer a lot in to day to day versatility since a large number of the spells that you're going to want to cast are cast once. Wizards don't usually prepare more than one cast of mage armor, but if you've prepared it you're stuck with it for the rest of the day. This is true for a lot of hour/level buffs or just spells that aren't really spammable, like most battlefield control. Quick Study helps offset this but will eat into your total daily castings.
3. Having the spell slots of a Wizard with no bonuses from school specialization and needing to eat slots to fuel your exploits means you're likely to run out of spell slots more quickly.
4. The spells prepared table isn't really the same as a Sorcerer, as any Sorcerer worth their salt probably is human and has a decent bloodline, and is therefore looking at (Table+3) spells known for each level other than their highest, and (Table+1) for their highest. On any given round, a Sorcerer actually has more options than an Arcanist.
5. The hokey preparation/spontaneous mechanic means that higher casting stat doesn't increase your versatility.
6. Being half a spell level behind does really hurt.

The Arcanist is still Tier 1 obviously, but it's basically Wizard with training wheels for people who can't reliably predict how often they'll need certain spells. The best use I've found so far is putting every situationol out of combat spell in your spellbook and then using Quick Study to grab it to solve basically every non-combat problem.