Raptoran Dive Attack Question

[talon12100]

I am starting a new campaign with some friends and i decided to roll up a Raptoran. I couldn't Find out too much about the dive attack though. Would it be possible to use a full-attack as part of the dive, or would i only be able to get one attack with both of my weapons (assuming im dual-wielding)?

[thecrimsondawn]

Gonna quote what I found

"A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line. "

As per a charge, you would get one attack with a bonus with your primary creature weapon of choice (assuming you ever have more then one that is a primary).
Your secondary attacks dont ever happen unless you full attack, but you would get more then one roll should have have say - 2 claws as a primary attack.

[OldTrees1]

Dragonborn and Raptorians are privileged with a superior form of Dive Attack that allows them to use weapons are part of the Dive Attack (unlike other fliers which only get to use claw or talon attacks). A Dive Attack works like a charge and grants as many attacks as a charge would(normally 1). If you have Pounce(say from Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1) then you may make a full attack at the end of your dive.

[TalkGibberish]

What they said^

But there is also the Exotic Weapon "Footspike" in the same book. Those allow you to attack with both during a dive attack, even without pounce.

[rgrekejin]

Dragonborn and Raptorians are privileged with a superior form of Dive Attack that allows them to use weapons are part of the Dive Attack (unlike other fliers which only get to use claw or talon attacks). A Dive Attack works like a charge and grants as many attacks as a charge would(normally 1). If you have Pounce(say from Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1) then you may make a full attack at the end of your dive.

What he said. You only get one attack if you're charging, unless you have the Pounce ability or something like it, in which case you can make a full attack on a charge. If you really want to be able to spam attacks out of Raptoran charge, take Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce, and then take the Raptoran-only Stormtalon Prestige Class, which grants you a natural secondary attack with your foot talons. It's unclear whether you get one attack per talon or use if you have to use both talons to make a single attack, though. Check with your DM.

[Flickerdart]

What they said^

But there is also the Exotic Weapon "Footspike" in the same book. Those allow you to attack with both during a dive attack, even without pounce.
If you're a barbarian who doesn't want to use Spirit Lion Totem for some reason (maybe you took a different totem?), you can also pick up the Snow Tiger Berserker feat, which lets you pounce with light weapons.

[Curmudgeon]

A Dive Attack works like a charge
That's correct.

and grants as many attacks as a charge would(normally 1). If you have Pounce(say from Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1) then you may make a full attack at the end of your dive.
That's not correct. Dive attack works like a Charge, but it isn't one. Modifications specific to Charge don't do anything to dive attack because it only works like one.

[rgrekejin]

Dive attack works like a Charge, but it isn't one. Modifications specific to Charge don't do anything to dive attack because it only works like one.

I disagree. In the Rules Compendium, Dive is described in the "Charge" section, under the heading "Flying while Charging". As the heading is presumably intended to provide an accurate description of the section contents, this seems to indicate that a Dive is a specialized type of charge that is only available to flyers, not that a Dive and a Charge are separate entities.

[Curmudgeon]

I disagree. In the Rules Compendium, Dive is described in the "Charge" section, under the heading "Flying while Charging". As the heading is presumably intended to provide an accurate description of the section contents, this seems to indicate that a Dive is a specialized type of charge that is only available to flyers, not that a Dive and a Charge are separate entities.
Rules Compendium is in a very weird place in the rules hierarchy. It made up a bunch of new rules and granted itself ultimate rules precedence despite every other WotC source saying it couldn't do that. But RC also limited itself to precedence over pre-existing sources. When WotC later published the Premium 3.5 books including errata, every new rule introduced by RC was backed out, and a few changes not present in the original books + errata were introduced. So clearly RC has very dubious authority.

That aside, you'll note that in the RC dive attack coverage they insist that it's limited to talon/claw attacks. So maybe Charge modifications apply to most dive attacks, but clearly not to Raptoran weapon dive attacks.

[rgrekejin]

Rules Compendium is in a very weird place in the rules hierarchy. It made up a bunch of new rules and granted itself ultimate rules precedence despite every other WotC source saying it couldn't do that. But RC also limited itself to precedence over pre-existing sources. When WotC later published the Premium 3.5 books including errata, every new rule introduced by RC was backed out, and a few changes not present in the original books + errata were introduced. So clearly RC has very dubious authority.

That aside, you'll note that in the RC dive attack coverage they insist that it's limited to talon/claw attacks. So maybe Charge modifications apply to most dive attacks, but clearly not to Raptoran weapon dive attacks.

Well, maybe, but I would argue that this is a case of the specific superseding the general. I mean, the regular description of Dive says that it's limited to claw or talon - that restriction isn't new to the RC. But per the RC, Diving is a type of charge, and per RotW, Raptorans can use a piercing weapon while Diving (even though it is otherwise forbidden). Since a Dive is a type of Charge, any feats that modify a Charge for a Raptoran should also modify Dive, even when they're using a piercing weapon.

I admit that I haven't looked at the Premium reissue books - you may well be right on that count. But I've got to think that even if a Dive isn't a charge by strict RAW, it's pretty obvious that it's intended to be one.

[OldTrees1]

Rules Compendium is in a very weird place in the rules hierarchy. It made up a bunch of new rules and granted itself ultimate rules precedence despite every other WotC source saying it couldn't do that. But RC also limited itself to precedence over pre-existing sources. When WotC later published the Premium 3.5 books including errata, every new rule introduced by RC was backed out, and a few changes not present in the original books + errata were introduced. So clearly RC has very dubious authority.

That aside, you'll note that in the RC dive attack coverage they insist that it's limited to talon/claw attacks. So maybe Charge modifications apply to most dive attacks, but clearly not to Raptoran weapon dive attacks.

1) There are no rules outside of RC for how much Dive Attack is like a Charge. Therefore RC is the only relevant source for how much Dive Attack is like a Charge. (Answer: Dive Attack is a type of Charge)

2) There are 2 sources of Dive Attack. There is the general ability all flying creatures get(a general rule) and there is the specific ability Dragonborn and Raptorians get(a specific rule). Since specific is the exception to the general, Dragonborn and Raptorians benefit from their version.

3) Since there is no conflict between 1 & 2, neither of them overrides the other. Thus both 1 & 2 apply in the case of a Dragonborn or Raptorian.

[Curmudgeon]

1) There are no rules outside of RC for how much Dive Attack is like a Charge.
Well, that's clearly not true. From Monster Manual, page 312:
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. Whereas we have this from page 68 of Races of the Wild:
A raptoran with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the raptoran must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A raptoran can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage. You'll notice that Raptoran dive attacks work somewhat less like a Charge than normal dive attacks, which work just like a Charge.

[Flickerdart]

We see the entire extent of both - "like a charge except" and then a list of the ways it's not like a charge. There is no magical "charge" quality bestowed upon it by saying "just like" instead of "like" because both sentences are saying "this works like a charge works, except for the following ways in which it works differently."

[rgrekejin]

*snip*

Again, I would direct you to the Rules Compendium, where the "Flying while Charging" heading is used to describe Diving.

Additionally, the RotW feat Diving Charge has the following table description:
"Gain extra damage while diving to attack while flying"

And in the descriptive text, it says that the feat applies when charging while flying.

Unless you assume that the table and header are in error, it would appear that the terms "diving" and "charging while flying" are interchangeable, and a dive is a type of charge.

[Flickerdart]

Again, I would direct you to the Rules Compendium, where the "Flying while Charging" heading is used to describe Diving.

Additionally, the RotW feat Diving Charge has the following table description:
"Gain extra damage while diving to attack while flying"

And in the descriptive text, it says that the feat applies when charging while flying.

Unless you assume that the table and header are in error, it would appear that the terms "diving" and "charging while flying" are interchangeable, and a dive is a type of charge.
I think you meant to quote Curmudgeon and missed.

[rgrekejin]

I think you meant to quote Curmudgeon and missed.

Indeed I did. My apologies. I will amend.

On topic: searching around the internet, I've found references to a "Rules of the Game" article from the old Wizards website in which it was explicitly stated that a dive attack was a type of charge, but as all the links are dead and I cannot find a copy of it saved anywhere, take it with a grain of salt.

...in fact, I'd suggest you take it with a grain of salt even if I could find a link, as those articles were notoriously sketchy.

[nyjastul69]

Indeed I did. My apologies. I will amend.

On topic: searching around the internet, I've found references to a "Rules of the Game" article from the old Wizards website in which it was explicitly stated that a dive attack was a type of charge, but as all the links are dead and I cannot find a copy of it saved anywhere, take it with a grain of salt.

...in fact, I'd suggest you take it with a grain of salt even if I could find a link, as those articles were notoriously sketchy.

The RotG articles can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg).

[OldTrees1]

Well, that's clearly not true. From Monster Manual, page 312: Whereas we have this from page 68 of Races of the Wild: You'll notice that Raptoran dive attacks work somewhat less like a Charge than normal dive attacks, which work just like a Charge.
That did not address my point.

Monster Manuel, Races of the Wild, Races of Dragon and the Rules Compendium all mention that Dive Attacks and Charges have a relation. Only the Rules Compendium defines the relation. Since the relation is defined once and only defined once, then that definition is the relevant definition of the relation.

If you really are trying to finagle something over the word "just", then I will remind you that the language in question is English. There is no conflict between "like X" and "just like X" just as there is no conflict between "That gem's color was red" and "That gem's color was ruby(a shade of red)".

[rgrekejin]

Huh. Here's the relevant "Rule of the Game" article:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a

Here's the relevant quote:

"Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage."

I'm, um... somewhat skeptical all of that's right.