[Path of War] Veiled Moon and Stealth Checks

[Sacrieur]

In a few Veiled Moon maneuvers it says to make a stealth check against an opposing perception check. In specific, Phantom Penumbra, which permits:

"Make a Stealth check opposing the attackers Perception check, if successful, teleport up to 20-ft. away and leave behind 1d6 major images."

It's a counter ability, which is leaving me very confused. CRB clearly states you can't use Stealth if you're being observed. So then how does this maneuver work? Is there something I'm missing about the ethereal plane and Veiled Moon maneuvers that allows you to use this while an opponent is swinging a sword at you? It seems like it should be explicitly listed somewhere that this is or is not possible.

[charcoalninja]

In a few Veiled Moon maneuvers it says to make a stealth check against an opposing perception check. In specific, Phantom Penumbra, which permits:

"Make a Stealth check opposing the attackers Perception check, if successful, teleport up to 20-ft. away and leave behind 1d6 major images."

It's a counter ability, which is leaving me very confused. CRB clearly states you can't use Stealth if you're being observed. So then how does this maneuver work? Is there something I'm missing about the ethereal plane and Veiled Moon maneuvers that allows you to use this while an opponent is swinging a sword at you? It seems like it should be explicitly listed somewhere that this is or is not possible.

Specific beats general. So this power is an exception to the CRB rule of being observed. Essentially this power is allowing you to pull a DBZ style teleport away leaving an image behind to fool your foes. So basically if you succeed the check your target has lost track of you enough that they cannot determine which of the aparant 1d6+1 yous before them are the real one.

[PlatinumVixen]

Path Of War (and Initiator in general) skill checks really shouldn't be considered to function like the skills normally do in any case; that way lies madness. As already said, Specific Beats General, and any Skill Checks made for PoW maneuvers do exactly what they say they do in the maneuver itself, nothing more, nothing less.

[Sacrieur]

Specific beats general.

Is there a rule for this?

If not it's just fiat. Maybe they want you to take Hellcat Stealth.



So this power is an exception to the CRB rule of being observed. Essentially this power is allowing you to pull a DBZ style teleport away leaving an image behind to fool your foes. So basically if you succeed the check your target has lost track of you enough that they cannot determine which of the aparant 1d6+1 yous before them are the real one.

You fade into the ethereal plane, presumably. The maneuver isn't very big on the details.



Path Of War (and Initiator in general) skill checks really shouldn't be considered to function like the skills normally do in any case; that way lies madness. As already said, Specific Beats General, and any Skill Checks made for PoW maneuvers do exactly what they say they do in the maneuver itself, nothing more, nothing less.

I prefer consistency. If you allow stealth to be used in this manner, then you also have to allow acrobatics to be used in this manner, even if the initiator, for some reason, are unable to use acrobatics skill by some ability or something.

The problem is that the maneuver isn't very clear. It says you can use a stealth check to get away and use the maneuver as a counter, even explicitly overriding it in the case you're targeting by a spell with a reflex save or some effect, but it mentions nothing about it otherwise if it's an attack. Did Dreamscarred overlook this? They may have. But I will only apply a house rule consistently to all similar circumstances.

It's the only way to keep things fair for all the players.

What I really want to know is if I'm overlooking something, rather than what to do in such a circumstance. Is there a rule to apply here? Something about the ethereal plane? I looked up quite a bit about all of this and have turned up empty handed. If I go back to my players with a house rule, I want to have the confidence to say, "this is how it works and it isn't mentioned in the rules anywhere".

[PlatinumVixen]

The thing is you are not making a normal Stealth check as per the usual rules. You are making a roll using your bonus for Stealth to do something else. It's just the way the Initiators work. It's the same reason why the one Golden Lion ability that uses Diplomacy to stop an attack doesn't take a full minute of combat to work. It's just a game mechanic. Initiators use the points invested into Skills for rolls on certain abilities, they do not actually make those normal checks with all of the usual effects.

Specific Trumps General has been a standard rule for D&D for a while now and it continues into Pathfinder, but I don't personally have a link on me right at the moment.

As for the reason they can do it, it is pretty much entirely "Veiled Moon-using Initiators can tap into supernatural teleportation powers and the ethereal plane." If you're looking for a detailed explanation, it's...Pretty much 'this is a magic ability for them'. You might as well ask what property allows a Wizard to teleport in this particular instance. There's also the fact that anyone using Veiled Moon can't just spam these Stealth checks; they have to recover maneuvers after if they're in combat, or wait what amounts to a full minute out of combat if the DM allows them to use them out of combat.

If you aren't comfortable with that, there's a very real possibility that Path of War just isn't right for your campaign, and that's fine.

[Sacrieur]

The thing is you are not making a normal Stealth check as per the usual rules. You are making a roll using your bonus for Stealth to do something else. It's just the way the Initiators work. It's the same reason why the one Golden Lion ability that uses Diplomacy to stop an attack doesn't take a full minute of combat to work. It's just a game mechanic. Initiators use the points invested into Skills for rolls on certain abilities, they do not actually make those normal checks with all of the usual effects.

Probably, but it doesn't say that so I really shouldn't assume. And it has the initiating time listed quite clearly on each maneuver or stance. Because of the explicit mention, diplomacy wouldn't have to take what it says it normally takes.



Specific Trumps General has been a standard rule for D&D for a while now and it continues into Pathfinder, but I don't personally have a link on me right at the moment.

I've searched for this myself, but couldn't find anything.



As for the reason they can do it, it is pretty much entirely "Veiled Moon-using Initiators can tap into supernatural teleportation powers and the ethereal plane." If you're looking for a detailed explanation, it's...Pretty much 'this is a magic ability for them'. You might as well ask what property allows a Wizard to teleport in this particular instance. There's also the fact that anyone using Veiled Moon can't just spam these Stealth checks; they have to recover maneuvers after if they're in combat, or wait what amounts to a full minute out of combat if the DM allows them to use them out of combat.

Not what I'm really asking for here, I'm just wondering if there's something about phasing into the ethereal plane causes concealment and thus allows for a stealth check. But I believe it says you do this after a successful check.



If you aren't comfortable with that, there's a very real possibility that Path of War just isn't right for your campaign, and that's fine.

PoW is the best thing to happen to martial classes since well, ToB. I'm not going to give it up just because it has a few rule problems.

[Elricaltovilla]

Specific does indeed trump general, that's the entire basis of the D20 system. All of those feats, spells, class abilities and items that allow you to do something you couldn't do before are examples of specific trumps general. Take Combat Reflexes for example:



Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Special: The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use her opportunist ability more than once per round.


The entire reason that it has that "normal" section is because it is a specific exception to the normal rules of the game (only one attack of opportunity per round, no attacks of opportunity while flat-footed).

Using a maneuver is like using a spell. Any action taken as part of the spell is a specific use of that skill/ability/weapon/etc. that is different from the normal rules, and the maneuver spells out exactly what happens and how you go about achieving that result. I think I have a quote here for you, from one of the PoW:E writers (me) that applies. It was originally meant to explain how you can use skill check maneuvers while raging, but it still applies in this instance.



"Skill checks used by maneuvers are an alternative means of skill usage that does not fit within the strictures of skill usage in other parts of the game, the maneuver itself determines the timeframe of the action taken, while the skill check itself is merely a useful shorthand for determining the relative success and expertise of the initiator. Much like how Samurai would practice calligraphy in order to improve their hand movements for use with a sword, an initiator may develop skill in Diplomacy, Craft, Spellcraft or other seemingly disconnected skills in order to improve his combat efficacy in surprising ways."

[Sacrieur]

Specific does indeed trump general, that's the entire basis of the D20 system. All of those feats, spells, class abilities and items that allow you to do something you couldn't do before are examples of specific trumps general. Take Combat Reflexes for example:



The entire reason that it has that "normal" section is because it is a specific exception to the normal rules of the game (only one attack of opportunity per round, no attacks of opportunity while flat-footed).

Using a maneuver is like using a spell. Any action taken as part of the spell is a specific use of that skill/ability/weapon/etc. that is different from the normal rules, and the maneuver spells out exactly what happens and how you go about achieving that result. I think I have a quote here for you, from one of the PoW:E writers (me) that applies. It was originally meant to explain how you can use skill check maneuvers while raging, but it still applies in this instance.

Thanks a whole lot! This really helps clear up my misunderstandings and make an objective and clear-cut decision on the matter :)

[deuxhero]

This actually extends to such an extend that Barbarians can use maneuvers that require prohibited skill checks.

[AzraelX]

The thing is you are not making a normal Stealth check as per the usual rules.
"The initiator makes a Stealth check opposing the attacker's Perception check."

Sounds like the initiator makes a Stealth check, but I guess you read it differently.


You are making a roll using your bonus for Stealth to do something else.
Making a "Stealth check" is a clearly defined activity. It receives a +40 bonus if you're invisible and immobile. It cannot be performed in bright or normal lighting conditions. It is opposed by a Perception check.


It's the same reason why the one Golden Lion ability that uses Diplomacy to stop an attack doesn't take a full minute of combat to work.
1) "Diplomacy" does not take a full minute of interaction to work. Different uses take different lengths of time; you're probably thinking of using it to change someone's attitude. Making a request of someone can be done in a single round.

2) Even if that wasn't the case, the maneuvers state how long they take. "Specific Trumps General".


they do not actually make those normal checks with all of the usual effects.
Then it should not have been written as "make a skill check" if it didn't mean "make a skill check". If it said in the CRB that "being tied up prevents you from using Acrobatics", then by RAW someone cannot use a maneuver which says "you must succeed at an Acrobatics check" while they are bound from head to toe with rope.


As for the reason they can do it, it is pretty much entirely "Veiled Moon-using Initiators can tap into supernatural teleportation powers and the ethereal plane."
Which is kind of funny, since you need to beat the other person's Perception check with your Stealth check, or the maneuver fails entirely. The maneuver itself involves teleporting and becoming incorporeal, except the Veiled Moon have numerous other abilities where they can teleport and become incorporeal without a Stealth check.

The fact that this maneuver does those same things, except it fails if the opponent's Perception check beats their Stealth check, would suggest to someone that it was intended to be a normal Stealth check. Otherwise, your opponent's Perception check wouldn't make a difference.

I can definitely see why the OP had such concerns, since he is correct by RAW, and facts like the above could certainly make someone believe it's RAI as well. It also doesn't help that most of the Veiled Moon maneuvers are references to shadows/darkness, and even their name suggests they favor concealed/dark conditions. Looking at the definition of "dim light" in the CRB, it even gives the example "outside at night with a moon in the sky".

There's nothing that suggests their Stealth checks are not actually Stealth checks, or that these members of the Veiled Moon can use their stealth abilities equally well under the Obvious Sun, especially when no one else can.


If you're looking for a detailed explanation, it's...Pretty much 'this is a magic ability for them'.
It's actually a supernatural ability.

It should be noted that there are a lot of other supernatural abilities that require skill checks, and they all act as "normal" skill checks (because there are no other kind; the phrase "skill check" is a technical term that means one and only one thing).

As an example: Bard's 1st level supernatural ability "Countersong". This requires a Perform check, and under the section for "Musical Instruments", it specifically says that the Perform skill cannot be used without an appropriate instrument.

Hence, the supernatural ability "Countersong" cannot be used without an appropriate instrument.

It's very straightforward, really.


There's also the fact that anyone using Veiled Moon can't just spam these Stealth checks
Our job as DMs and players shouldn't be to analyze the balance of everything that's already clearly written, just to figure out if the writers actually meant something different than what they wrote. It should come already balanced, since that is the job of the writers.

How balanced it would be for Veiled Moon disciples to spam Stealth checks isn't relevant to this thread anyways.

As an aside, I think you meant to say "can't just spam these checks that have their Stealth modifier applied".


If you aren't comfortable with that, there's a very real possibility that Path of War just isn't right for your campaign, and that's fine.
Yes, because he doesn't like the fact that three maneuvers from a single discipline don't work as intended by RAW, he should completely drop the entirety of it, because it is clearly not right for his campaign.

I'd really like to know the logic that got you from "he doesn't like this obscure unintended detail that accounts for less than 0.01% of Path of War's content" to "Path of War just isn't right for him". That just seems like a really poor attempt at being patronizing.


The entire reason that it has that "normal" section is because it is a specific exception to the normal rules of the game
And something equivalent to this section is what's missing from Path of War. A skill check is a specific thing that works a specific way. If you're changing the way skill checks work, you need to write that somewhere.

It would have been as simple as adding a line like this to the relevant section: "For the purposes of performing a maneuver, you are always capable of performing a skill check." That informs the reader that the skill checks are being handled differently than usual; specific trumps general.

I'm more interested in what else does or doesn't apply to this new kind of check. As mentioned earlier, invisibility grants +40 to all Stealth checks. Does it also grant +40 to these Stealth-based maneuver checks?

If not, then the previously suggested sentence still wouldn't be accurate, and it'd have been more appropriate to just define a "maneuver check" as a check that has the key skill modifier applied to it.


Using a maneuver is like using a spell.
You may have intended it that way, but by RAW it definitely is not. The maneuvers he's talking about are not spell-like abilities, they are supernatural abilities; it states that very clearly. These are two different and distinct types of abilities that are both thoroughly defined.

A good example was mentioned earlier: the Bard's "Countersong" ability, which is also a supernatural ability. It requires a Perform check. In the section for Musical Instruments, it is stated you cannot use Perform without an appropriate instrument. Therefore, you cannot use "Countersong" without an appropriate instrument.

Here's another example: the Veiled Moon's "Phantom Penumbra" ability, which is also a supernatural ability. It requires a Stealth check. In the section for Vision and Lighting, it is stated you cannot use Stealth while in bright or normal light. Therefore, you cannot use "Phantom Penumbra" while in bright or normal light.

That's how it's written. Anyone would be factually incorrect to say it means anything else by RAW.

The only reason there's even a question here is because of the contrast between RAW and RAI. I had already assumed that the maneuvers could be used in bright/normal light, because the PoW classes don't have any reliable methods to create concealment for themselves, especially alongside a Counter maneuver. I would expect there to be some obvious ways, optional or otherwise, for them to generate concealment for themselves if it was required to use some of their maneuvers.


Any action taken as part of the spell is a specific use of that skill/ability/weapon/etc. that is different from the normal rules
This is a bad example, since spells don't work this way. I can't think of any spells that state you need to make an additional skill check, let alone spells that then fizzle if you fail the check.

Regardless, unless otherwise stated, spells absolutely obey the normal rules. They do not say "Stealth check" when they actually mean "a different check that applies the Stealth modifier"; a Stealth check is a very specific kind of check. No one needs to guess what a spell (or anything else) means when it says that.


Skill checks used by maneuvers are an alternative means of skill usage that does not fit within the strictures of skill usage in other parts of the game, the maneuver itself determines the timeframe of the action taken, while the skill check itself is merely a useful shorthand for determining the relative success and expertise of the initiator.
If you ever do another printing, adding something to this effect would certainly go a long way in bringing the RAW in line with the RAI. The confirmation of RAI is really appreciated either way, so thanks!

[PlatinumVixen]

Yeah sorry about that, didn't intend to be patronizing. I was just trying to explain it while half asleep when I probably shouldn't have. Glad one of the PoW:E developers explained it instead.