How strong is a DK in D&D?

[Dectilon]

Should the characters on the wall be worried? Or is the death knight more like an extended annoyance?

[Threeshades]

Should the characters on the wall be worried? Or is the death knight more like an extended annoyance?

As far as I know a Death knight can be quite a pain in the ass.

They got some pretty mean abilities. A touch attack dealing 1d8 + Charisma bonus (+1 CON-Damage for each successful touch) and a pretty mean natural armour bonus of +5 and a damage reduction of 15/+1 and spell resistance 20 (+1 for each level above 10th)

So V is going to have a hard time against him.

[The Corinthian]

It's a template, +2 CR IIRC, so that depends on the power of the base creature. Saliently it's completely immune to turning and has a nasty "Abyssal Blast" area attack. I think it might also have a fear aura of some kind, but I'm not sure. I don't think Xykon managed to get his hands on any very powerful base creatures, so I'd expect that it would take down the giant soldiers and clerics if V and the captain weren't there. I expect V to be able to handle it with no great trouble.

[Darkxarth]

I'm going to be honest, when I saw the title I thought this thread was going to be about trying to stat Donkey Kong in D&D. :redface: :amused: :tongue:

Unfortunately, never actually having heard of one of these 'Death Knights' I can't give a very good estimate of its in-game D&D power, but I'm sure you'll get plenty of people, in addition to those who've already posted, who will know.

What I do want to add is that I think that V is going to have his or her hands full fighting this Death Knight. Sure, Rich could let V destroy the Death Knight in a matter of moments, but where's the story value in that? Besides, this way there are more chances to make jokes at V's (or the Death Knight's) expense if their battle is drawn out. Of course, I could be wrong and V could slaughter this dude in an instant, and then wander off to destroy more Hobbos or Ghouls/Ghasts or help Roy fight Xykon.

[Fighteer]

V could slaughter the death knight with a single disintegrate spell... if he (she) overcame its spell resistance and fortitude saving throw, and if the death knight didn't win initiative and blow him (her) away with a single blast. At its minimum possible level of power, it has over twice his (her) hit points and significantly better defenses. If it should manage to get into melee with V, he (she) is screwed.

[Setra]

V could slaughter the death knight with a single disintegrate spell... if he (she) overcame its spell resistance and fortitude saving throw, and if the death knight didn't win initiative and blow him (her) away with a single blast. At its minimum possible level of power, it has over twice his (her) hit points and significantly better defenses. If it should manage to get into melee with V, he (she) is screwed.
But V has the power of... PLOT!

[NeonRonin]

It really does depend on the level of the dead human who became the Death Knight. Nasty inherent powers aside, if it was a high level fighter while living then the defenders could be in for a really nasty fight. Now the template doesn't SAY it has to be a high level character when making a DK, but usually they are.

According to the MM2, the template adds +3 to the CR, which isn't surprising given the Damage Reduction of 15/+1, the Fear aura and Turning immunity. Also if the base warrior was 10th level or higher, he gets Spell Resistance of 20 + 1 for each level beyond 10th(meaning the DK gets at least a default Spell Resist of 20 anyway).

They can be banished with a Holy Word spell, though... where's Durkon when you need him?

[Fighteer]

But V has the power of... PLOT!
Ask yourself this - when has the plot ever favored the PCs, except as far as we know that they won't all die just yet?

V's had a pretty good run lately, but the death knight is kind of the ultimate anti-caster undead, specifically designed to crush him (her) into the ground and trample on him (her). Durkon is the only one who stands a real chance at defeating it.

[Threeshades]

Ask yourself this - when has the plot ever favored the PCs, except as far as we know that they won't all die just yet?

V's had a pretty good run lately, but the death knight is kind of the ultimate anti-caster undead, specifically designed to crush him (her) into the ground and trample on him (her). Durkon is the only one who stands a real chance at defeating it.

Roy could stand a chance too (his +5 sword should ignore the damage reduction, and it has been stated that it does some extra damage against undead)

[Fighteer]

Roy could stand a chance too (his +5 sword should ignore the damage reduction, and it has been stated that it does some extra damage against undead)
I don't suppose I need to point out that Roy's otherwise occupied at the moment...

[Threeshades]

I don't suppose I need to point out that Roy's otherwise occupied at the moment...

phh... details

[pendell]

Pooh. I say V gets rid of him in one strip.

And why is that?

Because V will use his/her ULTIMATE WEAPON.

Not "Time Stop"

Not "Wish"

Not "Disintegrate".

No, V's ultimate weapon is not magical in nature at all ... V will use his/her 18+ intelligence.

Recall that battle against ZZ'dtri. V was in a lot of trouble. None of his/her spells had the slightest effect on ZZ'dtri. In the last few panels, he/she was out of quarters and about to be spell-slammed and sliced and diced with scimitars. Yet V still won ... by using his/her wits.

I predict a similar outcome. When V beats the DK, it will have less to do with a raw force-on-force mechanical battle as it will V applying what he/she has intelligently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Threeshades]

Pooh. I say V gets rid of him in one strip.

And why is that?

Because V will use his/her ULTIMATE WEAPON.

Not "Time Stop"

Not "Wish"

Not "Disintegrate".

No, V's ultimate weapon is not magical in nature at all ... V will use his/her 18+ intelligence.

Recall that battle against ZZ'dtri. V was in a lot of trouble. None of his/her spells had the slightest effect on ZZ'dtri. In the last few panels, he/she was out of quarters and about to be spell-slammed and sliced and diced with scimitars. Yet V still won ... by using his/her wits.

I predict a similar outcome. When V beats the DK, it will have less to do with a raw force-on-force mechanical battle as it will V applying what he/she has intelligently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Unfortunately the death knight isnt a copyright violation so he has to come up with something really good.

[jindra34]

V could always bring up the limit on undead HD by one caster, rules refernce has post effects in OOTS... Hope redcloak was too ambitious

[Fighteer]

The limit on undead only applies to the animate dead spell. Undead created with create undead or create greater undead are not automatically controlled by the caster and may either be dominated with rebuke checks or convinced to obey voluntarily.

From Redcloak's dialogue with the Eye of Fear and Flame, it's clear that the undead is voluntarily obeying him, even though it may be out of fear of being rebuked.

All other considerations aside, there are plenty of nameless NPC hobgoblin casters to help animate and control the army of undead, and a good DM never gets simple HD limits get in the way when he wants to throw an unstoppable army at the PCs.

[Threeshades]

Yup, what the DM says is always right and the DM can say Xykon and redcloak dont have any limit of controllable undead.

And anyway i dont think the Death Knight really is controlled, it's more like hired or something.

[No_constraints]

Since the knight is quite powerful I'd say he'd die in one strip. It would be funny if the DK (donkey kong :smalltongue: ) showed a lot of ultra cool moves took out a few of the powered up soldiers, then just fell in a hole that happened to be there and die.

Rich would probably do this if he were to look at this forum because he does the opposite. The general outlook here is that V is screwed, so this will probably happen.

But I thought of it so it won't happen as long as he looks here. :smallsigh:

[FreakyM]

..Or rather, having the time of his unlife, what with near-unlimited minions to be sacrificed, and some serious bloodshed to look forward to: in his words: "LET THE REAPING BEGIN!".

Tl,Dr: hes in it for the sake of pure fun.

[Fighteer]

Since the knight is quite powerful I'd say he'd die in one strip. It would be funny if the DK (donkey kong :smalltongue: ) showed a lot of ultra cool moves took out a few of the powered up soldiers, then just fell in a hole that happened to be there and die.

Rich would probably do this if he were to look at this forum because he does the opposite. The general outlook here is that V is screwed, so this will probably happen.

But I thought of it so it won't happen as long as he looks here. :smallsigh:
I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. Whether Rich reads the forums or not, he doesn't reject plot ideas just because someone thought of them. If a lot of people go nuts anticipating something (like the GLG's stray arrow in #435), he may throw something in to poke fun at them, or he may have intended to do it all along. We just don't know, and he's not going to tell us until the book comes out that contains his commentary on these strips. :smallamused:

[brian c]

As far as I know a Death knight can be quite a pain in the ass.

They got some pretty mean abilities. A touch attack dealing 1d8 + Charisma bonus (+1 CON-Damage for each successful touch) and a pretty mean natural armour bonus of +5 and a damage reduction of 15/+1 and spell resistance 20 (+1 for each level above 10th)

So V is going to have a hard time against him.

Just a note: these stats are 3.0, Monster Manual 2 was never updated to 3.5. DR X/+1 doesn't exist anymore, it's just X/magic.

Hm... as Brian P (nice name by the way) mentioned, V could use his intelligence and think of something unconventional to win the battle; how about V saying that the Death Knight is not 3.5 updated and it poofs out of existence? I don't think this is going to happen, but just a thought.

[Elliot Kane]

I've yet to see a DK in any game that wasn't a formidable challenge for a group, never mind for a solitary spell caster. They're one of the top end undead threats. As this one is being followed by a small army of ghouls, I'd say the breach will fall - and quickly.

The loss of his horse is no more than a minor inconvenience, and I strongly doubt that the captain has killed him with one hit.

[Knight13]

Those guys are lucky that that isn't a Dragonlance Death Knight. Lord Soth could slaughter the entire city by himself, just because no one could stop him.

[Setra]

Those guys are lucky that that isn't a Dragonlance Death Knight. Lord Soth could slaughter the entire city by himself, just because no one could stop him.
Lord Soth wouldn't be working for Xykon, either. At least I can't see him doing it. Maybe if Xykon was a girl.

[lord_khaine]

i disagree about the lord soth part, yes he seemed to be an unholy terror in the dragonlance books, but he newer went up against anything really dangerous, like fx a highlv caster, or a group of midlv casters.

[Setra]

i disagree about the lord soth part, yes he seemed to be an unholy terror in the dragonlance books, but he newer went up against anything really dangerous, like fx a highlv caster, or a group of midlv casters.
Didn't Raistlin fear him?

[factotum]

Didn't Raistlin fear him?

Raistlin wasn't a particularly high level caster, at least not until he became a god and all that stuff. :smallsmile:

[Bag_of_Holding]

A death knight can be a pain, armed to the teeth with SR and Turn Immunity, but otherwise it's just a poorly converted (DR x/+1, Goodness Gracious!) critter.

[Threeshades]

Just a note: these stats are 3.0, Monster Manual 2 was never updated to 3.5. DR X/+1 doesn't exist anymore, it's just X/magic.

Hm... as Brian P (nice name by the way) mentioned, V could use his intelligence and think of something unconventional to win the battle; how about V saying that the Death Knight is not 3.5 updated and it poofs out of existence? I don't think this is going to happen, but just a thought.

okay, i didnt know that it was an old edition book.

[Roderick_BR]

I never used one in my games, but I read somewhere that the DK are the fighter/fallen-paladin/blackguard equivalent of the Lich, albeit a bit smaller threat.

[Baalzebub]

I agree with Brian P, V will not win the battle because of his spells, he'll win because of is 18 Int.

[Elliot Kane]

I never used one in my games, but I read somewhere that the DK are the fighter/fallen-paladin/blackguard equivalent of the Lich, albeit a bit smaller threat.

That sounds about right, yes :)

[BenjCano]

Didn't Raistlin fear him?

Other way around, actually. In the first of the Legend books, Kitiara brought Soth along when she went to visit her brother as a not-so-subtle intimidation factor, but Soth flat-out refused to openly oppose Raistlin.

Kitiara was forced to oppose her brother through more indirect means, such as by having Soth attempt to murder Crysania, who was as powerful a cleric as Raistlin was a wizard, as an amusing aside.

[Gitman00]

I'm going to be honest, when I saw the title I thought this thread was going to be about trying to stat Donkey Kong in D&D. :redface: :amused: :tongue:

Hmmm. Well, don't have my sourcebooks or access to the SRD, but here's a start! :smallbiggrin:

Donkey Kong (Dire Ape)
HD 10d8+40
Str 26, Con 19, Dex 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Attack (barrel) +12/+7 Dmg 1d6+8 bludgeoning

[Crispy SpThief]

While its true that the DK has Damage Reduction, its the easiest to overcome type of DR, and I wouldnt be suprised if every warrior on AC's side is armed to the teeth with at least a +1 style weapon.

[evil bob]

The DK may have the upper hand in melee, but we're not factoring in the General, are we?

[Fighteer]

While its true that the DK has Damage Reduction, its the easiest to overcome type of DR, and I wouldnt be suprised if every warrior on AC's side is armed to the teeth with at least a +1 style weapon.
Except that Rich's world seems to be fairly low-magic as far as the casual soldier and adventurer is concerned. There are only two confirmed magic weapons in the entire OotS party, and they are 13th level!

Again, we have absolutely no evidence that any characters except those explicitly stated to have them are equipped with magical weapons or armor.

[Kaerou]

I dont think Haley has a magic bow at the least, since her bow couldnt cut through the sorceresses protection from arrows spell.

The only ones we know are Roys +5 sword, and Elans +3 Rapier.

[paddyfool]

I'd be surprised if the general's weapon isn't magical, especially since the DK seemed to be hurt. Also, I don't think the ghouls will get through right away: the death knight may have cut a small hole in the defences, but there are still several well-buffed high-level fighters backed up by clerics to hold the breach. A few of those clerics using turn undead should at the very least disrupt the ghouls' charge and possibly stop it in its tracks.

As for the threat posed by the death knight himself, V doubtless has some buffs remaining that he can use on the general, and there should be plenty more soldiers, maybe even clerics, in the vicinity to assist. Still, it remains a serious problem for V, although precisely how serious rather depends how high-level this chap was before he karked it: I'm going to assume 10th level hobgoblin fighter or similar (Knight, perhaps?) given the spell resistance and the need for a vaguely appropriate CR.

Oh, and things like "not properly updated to 3.5" I see being annulled by DM's "this is the big battle, I'm not letting you coast it on a minor technicality" fiat. V shouldn't have it too easy.

[MReav]

Except that Rich's world seems to be fairly low-magic as far as the casual soldier and adventurer is concerned. There are only two confirmed magic weapons in the entire OotS party, and they are 13th level!

Durkon seems to cast Magic Weapon a lot on his own weapons at least. Also, we know that Nale and thog carry magic weapons.

While its true that the DK has Damage Reduction, its the easiest to overcome type of DR, and I wouldnt be suprised if every warrior on AC's side is armed to the teeth with at least a +1 style weapon.

That I doubt (unless someone cast Chain Magic Weapon). However, the General should be carrying something of value.

[Dr. Jones]

Here's another possibility I just fabricated: Roy somehow loses his sword (Xykon hits his hand or something) and it flies out of frame, and *stab* right in the DK's skull. That'd put a quick end to the DR/SR issue. And it has the added plot twist of leaving Roy without any readily apparent means to defeat Xykon :smalleek:

[the_tick_rules]

i didn't wanna read the whole strip so forgive me is this is a repeat. DK is a template that adds on to someone, it add +3 to CR so the biggest question is how powerful was he when he was a human?

[Copacetic]

Not to disturb the geekness, but rich probally will over throw any rules for the plot-steamengine.

[Iamyourking]

I am not sure why everyone has failed to mention that fact that the Death Knight would have to be CR 16 to be able to resist an average caster level check from Vaarsuvius. Intelligence or not, I would say that V, General Chang, and all of the other soldiers there are going to die unless the Giant pulls some serious Deus Ex Machina out of nowhere. In fact, I would say that the Death Knight is probably the second or third most dangerous person on the evil side (Barring the intervention of the MitD of course.)

[Deuce]

Ok, my prediction:


After the General is down, the DK confronts V, who casts a Lightning Bolt (or some other direct damage spell) which shoots past the DK. The DK laughs that V flat-out missed, V says "no I didn't, I wasn't aiming at you" and steps out of the way as a large chunk of a nearby tower turns the DK to dust.

[SMDVogrin]

Just a note: these stats are 3.0, Monster Manual 2 was never updated to 3.5. DR X/+1 doesn't exist anymore, it's just X/magic.

Hm... as Brian P (nice name by the way) mentioned, V could use his intelligence and think of something unconventional to win the battle; how about V saying that the Death Knight is not 3.5 updated and it poofs out of existence? I don't think this is going to happen, but just a thought.

Pg 31 of the free 3.5 update document: "Death Knight: Undead; 5ft./5ft.; as written; change Sunder to Improved Sunder; LA+5"

V will have to come up with something else, I'm afraid.

[de-trick]

i think v well win why the death knight is a minion and not a magor villon and v probly use control undead or another undead hurtin spell and if there is a save the death knight will roll the worst thing in his non-living life or dead life a natural 1 and the battle will be over

ps v is a pc always win called nicest dm ever not trying to kill pc's like mine try whahaha

:furious: lucas,victor, who ever else dming :furious:

[de-trick]

sorry about my bad spellin make a Decipher Script to read DC 14 sorry

[FujinAkari]

Other way around, actually. In the first of the Legend books, Kitiara brought Soth along when she went to visit her brother as a not-so-subtle intimidation factor, but Soth flat-out refused to openly oppose Raistlin.

Kitiara was forced to oppose her brother through more indirect means, such as by having Soth attempt to murder Crysania, who was as powerful a cleric as Raistlin was a wizard, as an amusing aside.

Ummm... that wasn't because Soth was afraid of Raistlin, but because he didn't want to discourage him. In Raistlin, Soth saw a man with the ambition and ability to actually oppose the Gods, and being Godcursed as he was, Soth had quite a bit of interest in seeing Raistlin attempt it.

Soth didn't seem to be concerned for his own safety, but instead did not want to detur Raistlin from his path, and thus refused to be used for intimidation. Alternately, it might be said that Soth saw the path Kitiara was on, and saw that her life would be lost in a foolish attack against the Tower... which is what Soth actually wanted.

Regardless, I don't remember or believe the explaination that Soth feared Raistlin, then or any time.

[Iamyourking]

Of course, there is also the fact that if this Death Knight is equivalent to Soth in power, he could very easily kill most of the participants in the battle with ease.

As proof: in the Legends series, in the alternate history, Soth kills Kirsah, a presumadely adult bronze dragon with 241 hp, with power word: kill, showing that his power words are presumedly 2.5 times stronger than anyone else's. After that, he kills a high leveled ranger with ease in melee. Needless to say, if this death knight is equal to Soth, he could probably kill the entire OotS just by pointing and saying die. The point is rather moot though, as I am fairly sure that even Xykon would be unable to control such a powerful death knight.