Chain Spell + Empower Spell

[bigm264]

So if I have a chain spell and empower spell does empower spell increase the number of targets from chain spell?
empower spell states "all variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half." so does the number of targets count as a numeric effect? I'm assuming it works because empower spell also says "affects half again as many targets"

[Red Fel]

So if I have a chain spell and empower spell does empower spell increase the number of targets from chain spell?
empower spell states "all variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half." so does the number of targets count as a numeric effect? I'm assuming it works because empower spell also says "affects half again as many targets"

Chain Spell allows a single-target spell to target a primary target, plus a number of secondary targets up to your caster level. The number of targets is not a "variable, numeric effect" in that it isn't variable. You don't roll 1d20 to determine your caster level, it's a stat, like Str, AC, or Comeliness. It can be augmented, via feats or other treachery, but even augmented it retains a specific value, not a variable one. You can choose to target fewer targets than your maximum; that's also not a variable effect, that's an "I want to hit that guy" effect.

Short version? Chain Spell doesn't work that way.

[bigm264]

oh ok. thank you <3

[Necroticplague]

I simultaneously disagree and agree with Fen. I disagree on that Chain Spell's target is variable: a variable equivalent to another thing is still a variable. Your caster level is still a variable, because its not a fixed level.

However, chain spell and empower spell still don't interact like that, but for a different reason:Empower says that it increases the numeric effects of the spell. Chain spell does not modify the effect of a spell, it modifies the target line of a spell. Thus, it's a variable, numeric, target; while empower improves variable, numeric, effects.

[KillianHawkeye]

I simultaneously disagree and agree with Fen. I disagree on that Chain Spell's target is variable: a variable equivalent to another thing is still a variable. Your caster level is still a variable, because its not a fixed level.

That is not what variable means in this context (i.e., "random", not "subject to change"), but the rest of your post is correct. Also, I feel like we just had a thread about this a few days ago?

[Zaq]

In the aggregate, I agree with what's being said here. CL (and thus the number of Chainable targets) isn't a "variable, numeric effect," so Chain doesn't work with Empower that way. No disagreement.

But let's get a little bit messy and play Devil's Advocate for a second. What if you're a Wild Mage, and you therefore don't know what your CL is before you cast the spell? There's a die roll involved with a Wild Mage's CL.

I think the sanest response to that is that Wild Magic isn't a "variable, numeric effect" of the spell, so it probably wouldn't work. But it's interesting to think about. A permissive GM just might let that slip through, though he or she would be opening up a very messy can of worms in the process.

[KillianHawkeye]

But let's get a little bit messy and play Devil's Advocate for a second. What if you're a Wild Mage, and you therefore don't know what your CL is before you cast the spell? There's a die roll involved with a Wild Mage's CL.

I think the sanest response to that is that Wild Magic isn't a "variable, numeric effect" of the spell, so it probably wouldn't work. But it's interesting to think about. A permissive GM just might let that slip through, though he or she would be opening up a very messy can of worms in the process.

Okay, you've identified a case where CL actually is a variable number. I think psionics has a version of this as well. Having an actually variable CL still won't let you use Empower Spell to get more targets with anything that specifies a number of targets based on caster level though, because as Necroticplague said above, targets are targets and effects are effects.

Empower Spell also won't increase a spell's range or your roll to penetrate spell resistance, or anything else based on CL that isn't an effect of the spell, nor any non-numeric effect of a spell even if it requires a random roll on a table (such as teleport or reincarnate.)