Converted Cleric

[ZenBear]

As the DM how would you rule a Cleric switching deities? Say a cleric of Shar being converted to Selune for example. Neither deity shares a domain with the other, so does the cleric change domains? How do armor and weapon proficiencies work then?

[calebrus]

As the DM how would you rule a Cleric switching deities? Say a cleric of Shar being converted to Selune for example. Neither deity shares a domain with the other, so does the cleric change domains? How do armor and weapon proficiencies work then?

Simple.
Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't.
A Cleric devotes his or her life to his or her god.
Letting them switch is the functional equivalent of a Catholic Bishop just deciding one day that he's Jewish all of a sudden.

[themaque]

Switching deities isn't like switching deodorants. It's a MAJOR life change. Where once you ate, breathed, and slept with but one desire, now it changes?

That's a big decision that PROBABLY doesn't come on lightly. Considering many/most of the bonuses are divinely granted I would probably just have them changed over as long as the New god was cool with him/her as a worshiper.

Skills and Proficiencies, that would probably remains the same, as the player PROBABLY has the skills from some other source. (background or feat) but It would be a real case by case basis. and again, what brought about this momumental change.

[themaque]

Simple.
Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't.
A Cleric devotes his or her life to his or her god.
Letting them switch is the functional equivalent of a Catholic Bishop just deciding one day that he's Jewish all of a sudden.

What about The Cyrinishad? There are reasons and ways for this to happen, although as in my previous statement, they should be extreme and not treated lightly.

EDIT: I see you said "under normal circumstances" and I agree. but what would happen under UNUSUAL circumstances, like my given example?

[calebrus]

Priests that leave the clergy don't all of a sudden join a different clergy. Normal folks sometimes do that, but priests do not. If a priest leaves the service, he simply leaves the service. Maybe some *years* down the road he may join another, but that's not happening tomorrow.
There would have to be an *extremely* compelling reason for me to allow it at the table.

[Mr.Moron]

All the magic stuff would swap out and any of the mundane stuff (Profs etc..), they'd keep the old stuff and get the new stuff. As others have said there is probably significant RP overhead around this kind of conversion, a few extras profs and whatnot are probably a fitting reward.

[burninatortrog]

I'd have the cleric lose the old domain features (including armor and weapon proficiencies) and give them a quest to earn the 1st-level features of their new domain. Then another quest to earn 2nd-level features, etc.

[dancrilis]

Priests that leave the clergy don't all of a sudden join a different clergy. Normal folks sometimes do that, but priests do not. If a priest leaves the service, he simply leaves the service. Maybe some *years* down the road he may join another, but that's not happening tomorrow.
There would have to be an *extremely* compelling reason for me to allow it at the table.

The most likely ones to memory for changing Deity would be deity death/personality change/rebirth and another taking on the worshippers, Bane -> Cyric -> Iyachtu Xvim -> Bane (in the case of Fzoul Chembryl and many others).

Also Lliira took over from Waukeen to memory.

I kindof view there being two schools of worship in DnD
1: Faithful worship - where you are loyal to the deity in the same way that people are loyal to religions in real life.
2. Goal based worship - where you are loyal to the deity in the same way that some people are loyal to companies in real life.

A Cleric could be either - after all Gods want the most competent Clerics and of that is a goal driven one fine.

In game I would see how it is handled as depending on how the change occurs - but I would basically say keep your old powers don't get new ones - you act as a pseudo Ur-Priest for a while - and maybe trade out abilities over time (assuming you don't become a new sect for the new deity).

[calebrus]

The most likely ones to memory for changing Deity would be deity death/personality change/rebirth and another taking on the worshippers, Bane -> Cyric -> Iyachtu Xvim -> Bane (in the case of Fzoul Chembryl and many others).

Also Lliira took over from Waukeen to memory.

There is no comparison between:
Bane -> Cyric -> Iyachtu Xvim -> Bane
or:
Lliira took over from Waukeen
and:
Cleric of Shar > Cleric of Selune.

You're right, those you listed are not without reason. And those you listed would not need to change domains (and likely alignments as well) because of it either.
Apples and oranges.
The former is a changing of the guard, so to speak. The latter, and the one we're dealing with, is a fundamental change in every single thing that a person believes, including morality. The two are incomparable.

We're not talking about changing from Presbyterian to Methodist.
We're talking about a Catholic Bishop suddenly deciding that he's Jewish all of a sudden one day.

[FightStyles]

The first step is figuring out WHY the player wants the cleric to switch deities.

If the player is disatisfied with his current character and wants to change his domain, then I would allow them to change deity/domain and what not with a couple penalties. I would make them roll up a new character because they in fact appear to want a new character. This should be treated as a death of the previous character, even if the PC doesn't die in-game, but rather goes from a PC to a NPC. This introduces my death penalties which include an xp and possible level drop and equipment and gold based on level.

However, if they are looking to change deites because of RP reasons, then I would sort of allow it. "Sort of" because I would inform the player that he cannot "change" deities but rather let explain why/how he has worshipped the "new" deity all along.

[dancrilis]

.
We're talking about a Catholic Bishop suddenly deciding that he's Jewish all of a sudden one day.
Didn't Bodo (http://www.jewishtreats.org/2011/01/bishop-bodo.html) essentially do that in 838?

Now I am not saying that it is common - but even ignoring real world occurrences of this kind of thing occurring, it might be better to look at it as a lawyer for a major oil company taking a job with a major anti-oil lobby - the basic skills are the same but now you oppose your old colleagues and argue the opposite points.

[themaque]

This happened in 2nd edition.

I was playing a priest of Tymora, my father before me had been a priest of Tymora and I joined in her service. Alas, my character was troubled from the start, Manic -Depressive his highs and lows cycled through his adventures.

then something happened, a villain that the party had encountered before revealed himself to be... my father. He had not died, as I had thought, but had been converted by the very magic book I had mentioned earlier! He did not posses it, but he made it his life's mission to convert me.

As he was the parties villain, the party turned agains me as well. Why did I not tell them? Why was this a secret? My dreams where haunted as he stopped outright fighting us, but making my life hell. I saw how all my accomplishments failed or amounted to nothing. I was forced to question my faith, but with the help of my friends, I was able to overcome... for a while.

It was a period of great stress, I was also at a low swing in my moods. The dreams where never ending and sleep was a luxury I no longer had and we where far from a place I could gain sanctuary in my church. I told the GM "I'm on edge, I'm questioning everything. Jeremy is the only one who has stood by me. I don't know what I would do without him."

The very next thing that happened was Jeremy attacks me. Mostly Verbal and emotionaly, but it was the final straw. I was lost in the wind I had no where to go. What was I to do? then my father was back. Ready to show me what TRUE power and what TRUE loyalty was If I would join him in service.

FR is a magic realm, and Cyric answered my prayers. I forsook my previous vows and entered into service to Cyric. Was I doubtful? Of course, but if no power was granted to me I could easily be lost and return to Tymora.

I lost me levels of Luckbringer and was granted an equal amount dedicated to Cyric.


TL/DR Summary
The point is, Everything we do in these games, is extraordinary. I think it's a fair question and due an answer with the provision, it has to be an extreme case.

No Jacob can't just suddenly decide "Forget this I want Bacon!" then quit being jewish and expect to be made Cardinal, but in a land where gods tread the earth prayers can be answered.

[Drakefall]

I think themaque has the right of it with regards to the reasoning behind a conversion. If a player wants to switch deities for RP reasons and knows its a big deal in and out of character and shan't be doing this willy nilly then I'd be more than happy to make a cool little story arc out of it. It certainly wouldn't be happening very often. Once in a campaign; maybe twice if they want to do a fall form grace followed by a path to redemption thing and it'll make for a cool narrative.

Now then, as far as the mechanical sides of it go I guess I'd let them keep any skills and proficiencies their old domain grants that the new one does not, but otherwise just swap the domains. Sure you might end up with a knowledge or life cleric with heavy armour and martial weapon proficiencies, but hey in that case that could be part of their reward for their little character arc that's going on.

As far a implementation would go, I would definitely talk to the player about the transition and any possible penalties and basically work it so you're both on the same page, have the same expectations, and are both happy. Every player is different here. I know I wouldn't mind my character losing his spellcasting and divine abilities for a session, maybe two, whilst he's converting, and I'd be willing to trust DM's with this. As a DM if I had a player col with such things I would like them to trust me and take their penalties into account and hopefully make their tribulations worth it in the form of cool RP and maybe a mechanically beneficial reward or two for good story material. Because I love me some good story material.

TL;DR?
Keep the mechanical changes simple and streamlined, and, most importantly, talk to your player and work things so you're both on same page and happy with said page.

[Gnaeus]

There is no comparison between:
Bane -> Cyric -> Iyachtu Xvim -> Bane
or:
Lliira took over from Waukeen
and:
Cleric of Sune > Cleric of Selune.

You're right, those you listed are not without reason. And those you listed would not need to change domains (and likely alignments as well) because of it either.
Apples and oranges.
The former is a changing of the guard, so to speak. The latter, and the one we're dealing with, is a fundamental change in every single thing that a person believes, including morality. The two are incomparable.

We're not talking about changing from Presbyterian to Methodist.
We're talking about a Catholic Bishop suddenly deciding that he's Jewish all of a sudden one day.

Well, there are several issues there.

1. Unlike real world examples, there isn't usually a belief issue at stake. Yes, your cleric may follow god A, but it doesn't mean that you don't believe god B exists or that his followers are all deluded or following a demon or something. You just decided to follow someone else. A farmer following a god of nature who watched his kingdom overrun by invading armies might suddenly see the benefit to following a god of war. That doesn't mean that he has a totally different personality, he just saw something else as more necessary to his life right then. In some regions, it might actually be common (like followers of the god of youth or drunkenness tending to leave the church and follow the god of wisdom later in life).

2. In D&D, there are actually lots of reasons why a cleric might wake up in the morning a totally different person. Helm of Alignment Change. Lycanthropy, undead conversion, or other type change. The horrors of Great Cthulhu whispering madness into your ear until you realize that your parishioners will all really be better off after you have horribly dismembered them. Reincarnation. Wish. Divine Intervention.

[calebrus]

@^
Which is why I left the door open as long as there was an *extremely* compelling reason.
But it isn't something that's done lightly, and even in the rare case that it does happen, they aren't going to completely change their belief structure.

Your farmer hasn't devoted his life to this ideal. He's not a priest.
It would take an extremely significant event for a priest to make that change.

[Gritmonger]

Multiclass Cleric and Cleric. Done. Nobody that unfaithful will ever always have an appeal to a deity answered once a week.

[Gnaeus]

@^
Which is why I left the door open as long as there was an *extremely* compelling reason.
But it isn't something that's done lightly, and even in the rare case that it does happen, they aren't going to completely change their belief structure.

Your farmer hasn't devoted his life to this ideal. He's not a priest.
It would take an extremely significant event for a priest to make that change.

It might not. A local village priest might follow a god of growing things, because that was what was important for his peaceful village. A societal shift towards trade or war might be all it took.

In a pantheon, it might not need a change of belief structure AT ALL. The change between serving (for example) one elven deity, to another allied elven deity, could very well change nothing other than who you prayed to. And since you might very likely have been praying to both allied gods to begin with, it could just be the difference between 50 prayers to god X and 10 to god Y in the morning, to 50 prayers to god Y and 10 to god X.

If it is following a medieval model, it might be less personal than that. King Fred used to be a follower of Most Holy Bob, as were the people of his kingdom. After his conversion to the Divine Steve, most of his kingdom's clergy become Stevists overnight (except for the most committed Bobbies, who Fred puts to the torch). Happened dozens of times in the real world.

You are making a problem, where historically, and within the pantheons of D&D, there is not necessarily an issue. If a player wants to convert, there are lots of good reasons. This is a question better answered with mechanical suggestions than %&#*!!!

[calebrus]

In a pantheon, it might not need a change of belief structure AT ALL. The change between serving (for example) one elven deity, to another allied elven deity, could very well change nothing other than who you prayed to. And since you might very likely have been praying to both allied gods to begin with, it could just be the difference between 50 prayers to god X and 10 to god Y in the morning, to 50 prayers to god Y and 10 to god X.

Once again, that's not what we're talking about here.
Read the OP.
Shar > Selune
We're not having an abstract discussion about what might be, like changing gods within an elven pantheon. We're having a discussion about what is. The example given was Shar > Selune.
Two diametrically opposed goddesses. They are quite literally enemy forces.
This is not something that will simply *happen* without a major event.

Shar is neutral evil, and her clerics are all evil (worshippers can be neutral, but will generally never be good).
Selune is chaotic good, and her clerics are all good (worshippers can be neutral, but will generally never be evil).
They are literally enemies of one another. (http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/deities.htm)
Their clerics don't just wake up and decide that they're on the other team. This is an HUGE undertaking.

[Daishain]

Depends on the differences between the deities, and the changes that go on for the cleric themselves.

We aren't talking about a theology shift here, every cleric accepts the existence and ideology of every major deity.

Therefore, a conversion is as easy or simple as the event needed to change the cleric's loyalty.

A perceived betrayal might do it, but then the most likely destination is to a deity that the cleric thinks better portrays their ideals.

The cleric changing enough in demeanor would also do it. As the original deity withdraws support, the cleric will be forced to seek another.

[DireSickFish]

Followers of Eilistraee are actively trying to convert followers of Lolth and are two opposed deities. Priests of Tempus can fall to the way of Gargos if they let there lust for blood overwhelm there lust for battle. It's a common story telling mechanisim to have a struggle and change of faith in a story. I'm very surprised at the number of responses that boil down to "That's crazy no one would do that!".

I would allow changing of faith when I am DMing and if that requires a change in Domain it would be tricky to handle. First off I would most likely give them a time of depowerment to show that this is not an easy change or something to be taken lightly. A session with no spells or domain abilities, just swinging a mace would be difficult. Then I'd give them the new domain abilities and give them full spellcasting back after a time I thought they'd proven there faith. Only a session or two ideally. I wouldn't give them new weapon or armor proficiencies and let them keep the ones that they had, as those seem more in line with training that the church would give you.

[calebrus]

First off I would most likely give them a time of depowerment to show that this is not an easy change or something to be taken lightly. A session with no spells or domain abilities, just swinging a mace would be difficult. Then I'd give them the new domain abilities and give them full spellcasting back after a time I thought they'd proven there faith. Only a session or two ideally. I wouldn't give them new weapon or armor proficiencies and let them keep the ones that they had, as those seem more in line with training that the church would give you.

This all sounds perfectly reasonable, if a significant event changing ideology has occurred (and been RP'd) in game.

[Shining Wrath]

You could treat the event as a sort of multi-class.

For features listed on the Table "The Cleric", PHB page 57, progress the character as having Cleric level equal to their ECL.

For features listed under the new domain, they start over at level 1. Features listed under the old domain stop progressing; DM ruling as to whether it is an alignment violation to use them. Using Death Domain spells or features when your new Domain is Life might not work so well with your new bestest deity.

[Gnaeus]

You could treat the event as a sort of multi-class.

For features listed on the Table "The Cleric", PHB page 57, progress the character as having Cleric level equal to their ECL.

For features listed under the new domain, they start over at level 1. Features listed under the old domain stop progressing; DM ruling as to whether it is an alignment violation to use them. Using Death Domain spells or features when your new Domain is Life might not work so well with your new bestest deity.

I think your problem there is that the domain powers are pretty heavily frontloaded. They get stuff at 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 17 (with most of the best stuff at 1 and 8). A cleric who went to level 9 in life, then converted to light, would be more powerful than a cleric who stayed with one deity beginning on level 10 and for the rest of the game. I don't think you should punish conversions, but I don't think you should reward them this way either.

[Gritmonger]

I think your problem there is that the domain powers are pretty heavily frontloaded. They get stuff at 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 17 (with most of the best stuff at 1 and 8). A cleric who went to level 9 in life, then converted to light, would be more powerful than a cleric who stayed with one deity beginning on level 10 and for the rest of the game. I don't think you should punish conversions, but I don't think you should reward them this way either.

I think you could swing it, if you ran it instead as a true multi-class - they would be capped on spell level for instance, and would never get spells to fill the 6th through 9th level slots.

[rollingForInit]

I'd allow it rarely, perhaps once during an entire adventuring career. With some RP it could make for fantastic character development.

Mechanically it would depend on what the player wanted. Would he like a new domain? Then I'd do what's been suggested by people here. Retain proficiencies, but get the rest from the new domain. But if the player wanted to keep the abilities? Say that the Cleric had the Trickery domain from Shar, converts to Selûne ... who's to say that there isn't a sect of Selûne that acts as spies for the main temple, and the clerics of this sect are blessed with powers from the Trickery domain. I see no reason why a Deity would be limited to just those domains specified in the PHB (that are even listed as suggested domains).

D&D is a game of fantastical, exceptional characters. If there's anyone in the world that goes from being a priest of Shar to a priest of Selûne, redeeming him or herself completely, who else would it be, other than a PC? Makes perfect sense that it'd happen to a PC, imo.

[Xetheral]

Once again, that's not what we're talking about here.
Read the OP.
Shar > Selune
We're not having an abstract discussion about what might be, like changing gods within an elven pantheon. We're having a discussion about what is. The example given was Shar > Selune.
Two diametrically opposed goddesses. They are quite literally enemy forces.
This is not something that will simply *happen* without a major event.

Shar is neutral evil, and her clerics are all evil (worshippers can be neutral, but will generally never be good).
Selune is chaotic good, and her clerics are all good (worshippers can be neutral, but will generally never be evil).
They are literally enemies of one another. (http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/deities.htm)
Their clerics don't just wake up and decide that they're on the other team. This is an HUGE undertaking.

In some ways I feel switching from one god to an enemy god is more likely than switching between gods in a pantheon. This is partially because there are fewer circumstances where one must switch (i.e. goals are more likely compatible) and also because a cleric of an enemy is a far more valuable convert. For example, in the cold war, spies mostly defected to the other side, not to an ally (with a few exceptions).

In an old (3.5) campaign, I had a cleric in the party choose to use a lethal spell on a dominated PC. As a result, his god revoked access to offensive magic indefinitely. At the same time, that god's enemy, seeing an opportunity, stepped in and gave the cleric (secret) spontaneous access to the destruction domain, but the cleric knew that drawing on that power was an evil act.

Revoking spells is a risky act for a god precisely because it may inspire backlash from the cleric in the form of defecting to a generously-welcoming (if not exactly trusting) enemy. By contrast an ally won't accept a disgraced cleric--it would be a diplomatic incident.

[ZenBear]

Sorry to dredge up a pretty much dead thread, but I have more to say on the subject. Hope this doesn't count as "necroing" or whatever.

So the idea behind all this is that I'm playing with a story centered on the Dark Moon Heresy, which claims that Shar and Selune are two faces of the same deity. This obviously blurs the lines between loyalties, and so switching allegiance is a distinct possibility.

For example, a Trickery Domain Cleric of Shar who is a member of the Darkcloaks (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shar) would be converted by the end of the story to the worship of Selune when their self-deception of Shar's true intentions on the world is shattered.

Another character is an Acolyte in a temple of Selune who dreams of being a Paladin and trains as a man-at-arms (Fighter 1) but is Called by a divine power -- presumable Selune -- to serve as a Cleric, granted divine power to Command at a desperate moment. However, over the course of the story this character's will is tested by strife and tragedy, and he teeters between the Life giving Selune and the Death dealing Shar as bitterness and morality war in his heart. Taking Fighter 1 means proficiency in heavy armor and martial weapons, so that issue is covered at least.

I want to keep this story as true to the game as possible. Hence my asking the Playground of how you would rule such a thing in-game. I'm surprised that more people weren't shouting "NO!!!" at the top of their figurative lungs. Obviously changing loyalties to a deity that is diametrically opposed to the one you used to worships would take a dramatic catalyst. I never implied otherwise. But seeing as not all Clerics choose their deity (read: Erevis Cale series, previous posters' examples, and the Cleric chapter stating as much) the idea of converting isn't entirely impossible.

[themaque]

Would this conversion be done with just the gods or the church itself.

I'm currently thinking something similar to atonement. a minor sacrifice and ceremony to show your conviction and loyalty to your new master.

If turning to sharn, there are plenty of RP opportunities to do this. If RP'ed and it works I would just swap out one clergy powers for the other.

EDIT: As the OP coming back to the thread with more information for further details, I'm pretty sure you can be forgiven you silly necromancer you. but what do I know.

[ZenBear]

Would this conversion be done with just the gods or the church itself.

I'm currently thinking something similar to atonement. a minor sacrifice and ceremony to show your conviction and loyalty to your new master.

If turning to sharn, there are plenty of RP opportunities to do this. If RP'ed and it works I would just swap out one clergy powers for the other.

EDIT: As the OP coming back to the thread with more information for further details, I'm pretty sure you can be forgiven you silly necromancer you. but what do I know.

In the case of the Fighter/Cleric, just the Goddesses. For the Trickster, it would be abandoning one church hierarchy and joining the other.

For the former, I'm going for a sort of tug-of-war over an opportunely situated agent. With a background in Selune's church he would start on her side and as a good person he would want to stay that way, but the demands of his circumstances and the blurring effect of the Dark Moon Heresy would lead him to Shar's service at times. Possibly throw in a Night Hag invading his dreams trying to corrupt him fully to Shar's embrace.