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kemmotar
2015-03-05, 06:06 PM
Several years ago I discovered the joy of PbP to fulfill my RPGing needs when a RL group was not forthcoming. The problem I faced was one that all must come to terms with when joining PbP games. Too many people applying for the good games, campaigns that look interesting but turn out bad, DMs or players that flake or just plain not finding something a campaign you're interested in.

That got me to thinking about an on demand good quality DM to run a campaign you and your friends are interested in. That brings us to the pay to play PbP model, well frankly, it would be more of a hybrid that I'm considering, but we'll get to that. The reason I'm posting is to try and develop this idea, gauge interest of the community, get feedback and finally how much one would be willing to pay for such a service.

So first things first, though it is my idea, it is centred around a friend of mine who is an amazing storyteller, has been DMing for years, reads like a fiend and has probably forgotten more about the settings he knows than I will ever know.

My first thought was that this could also allow new players or veteran players interested in trying a new setting to be introduced to it in a way that combines both storytelling about the setting and learning the rules. This would be done in an initial skype "meeting" between the DM and players where they would be introduced to the world and create characters (if necessary).

Another weakness of PbP is long monologues or descriptions that would've been that much more awe or fear inspiring (as the case may be) if only you could hear them to provide tone of voice. That can be solved by having important plotpoints or descriptions being recorded and sent to the players. Maps or images could also be transmitted to players to further flesh out the experience.

Campaign selection format:
Single players could create threads on the site to find other players willing to play a certain campaign, e.g. an evil party in D&D, or Vampire the dark ages, or whatever strikes their fancy. Once a group has been created (either by single players finding one another or a premade party of friends) they would contact the DM team with the idea, then characters would be created, with DM assistance and introduction if required (I'd say a small charge for that would be added). The campaign would then start with a number of guaranteed story posts, these would be separate from administration posts (e.g. skill challenged, battles, non-story social interactions) so the story can progress without it being bogged down by battle.

My initial idea with regards to payment would be a scaling monthly format that is then divided per player. The payments would increase after a certain amount of players (perhaps standard party of 4 people).

These are the very early stages, so I will throw the ball to you guys. There are two questions:
1) what would you like to see
2) how much would you pay for it

Also, if anyone knows of any similar attempts or professional DMs I'd appreciate a link. Thanks for any input guys.

Solaris
2015-03-05, 06:30 PM
I can already do all of that over Skype and Roll20 and not have to pay a single red cent for it. In fact, that's what I do after having determined that PbPers are, by and large, a disgustingly unreliable lot.

Mr Beer
2015-03-05, 06:33 PM
2) how much would you pay for it

I would pay $0

Kid Jake
2015-03-05, 06:41 PM
I'm what you could call a professional DM. I run customized sessions for groups with very niche interests or who just want a DM available on their schedule (for a modest fee) and I've gotta say that there really isn't enough of a market to support a site like that. Especially not devoted to PbP which can die due to a hundred different reasons that the DM has no control over.

Grinner
2015-03-05, 07:53 PM
Especially not devoted to PbP which can die due to a hundred different reasons that the DM has no control over.

Players dropping out is a problem, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. There's an idea in psychology that people tend to value things they pay for more than things they don't. Or maybe the cost of entry attracts only serious players...Either way, I can't recall the name of the phenomenon. Still, it stands that if there were some cost associated with playing, you'd see less dropouts.

Personally, even when PbP works as intended, it still progresses at a glacial pace. I haven't got the patience for that.

I did have success with a chat-based game once, though circumstances forced me to drop it.

JRutterbush
2015-03-05, 07:55 PM
Absolutely not. Even ignoring the part where I prefer my games to be just fun among friends, I've tried play-by-post gaming... and there are constant drop-outs (DM's and players alike), the pace is glacially slow (either that or wildly erratic, especially with freeform games), the organization is generally not very good, and there are very few systems that run well in a play-by-post format. Those problems might be okay to deal with when it's free, but there is no chance I'd actually pay for anything like that. It'd be like paying for a car that only makes it out of the driveway 5% of the time.

Sure, it might be that this one game just so happens to work out okay... but why would I risk actual money on such a low chance of success?

Sorry if I come across a little harsh. I'm not flat-out against paying for a game, but the idea of paying for a game run by someone whose playstyle and personality I know nothing about (no offense, but you claiming that your friend is a great DM doesn't mean anything here... you're not exactly an unbiased source), using a format that I already know is rife with issues, is just not something that appeals to me in the slightest.

Rallicus
2015-03-05, 08:32 PM
No.

I wouldn't pay someone to DM a real game I'm interested in in the first place, let alone one done through the worst possible medium for tabletop.

That aside, the only way I could see this warranted is if the DM provided something beyond the scope of regular PbP games. Separate threads for slow, mechanics-based aspects? Maps? Vocaroo recordings? No... none of these things come remotely close to justifying a monthly scaling fee.

How could it be justified? By having a portion of that DM's paycheck going towards things that enhance the game. Well-produced character art drawn by commission. Gifts to the players, like painted miniatures of their characters. Things like that.

Also, the idea of paying the DM to meet on Skype to simply discuss the game's direction is absolutely ludicrous.

Kid Jake
2015-03-05, 08:53 PM
Players dropping out is a problem, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. There's an idea in psychology that people tend to value things they pay for more than things they don't. Or maybe the cost of entry attracts only serious players...Either way, I can't recall the name of the phenomenon. Still, it stands that if there were some cost associated with playing, you'd see less dropouts.

Personally, even when PbP works as intended, it still progresses at a glacial pace. I haven't got the patience for that.

I did have success with a chat-based game once, though circumstances forced me to drop it.

You'd think paying for a game would give them incentive to actually play, but one of my first customers was a group of five or so friends who wanted a Serenity PbP; they kept paying me for like 3 months and I think two players actually responded in that entire time. The game never went anywhere and I honestly felt bad for taking their money.

It might have a lower dropout rate than your run of the mill PbP, but when it does fall apart it's gonna feel like you really got cheated.

Studoku
2015-03-05, 10:22 PM
Am I missing something or is this just a slightly more organised version of the PbP boards here?

kemmotar
2015-03-06, 05:25 AM
Players dropping out is a problem, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. There's an idea in psychology that people tend to value things they pay for more than things they don't. Or maybe the cost of entry attracts only serious players...Either way, I can't recall the name of the phenomenon. Still, it stands that if there were some cost associated with playing, you'd see less dropouts.

Actually, this is what I was thinking when considering dropping out or glacial slow progress. First, because you're paying you wouldn't drop out or allow the game to lapse and secondly, because you're paying you'd consider whether or not to play in the first place more seriously.

Now, about the "scaling" fee I mentioned, that was more about the number of players, not runtime. Running a game for a party of 10 is very different from running a game for a party of 5 or less. That said, a standard party is usually up to 5 people so that wouldn't come into play 95% of the time. Also, the skype meeting wouldn't be just to discuss direction, but to help players new to a setting or roleplaying in general understand the world, get a good chunk of introductory storytelling out of the way, creating characters (where needed) and understand how role playing games. Generally, giving players the support they need to start out. Not saying that will always be necessary, but some may need it and it may also give new players the support they need to try out a new setting.


Absolutely not. Even ignoring the part where I prefer my games to be just fun among friends, I've tried play-by-post gaming... and there are constant drop-outs (DM's and players alike), the pace is glacially slow (either that or wildly erratic, especially with freeform games), the organization is generally not very good, and there are very few systems that run well in a play-by-post format. Those problems might be okay to deal with when it's free, but there is no chance I'd actually pay for anything like that. It'd be like paying for a car that only makes it out of the driveway 5% of the time.

That would be precisely the point, having a DM that keeps the pace going along and doesnt flake storywise or just plain stops posting, a well thought format and administrators that take an active role in keeping the progress going at a modest pace. The problem with many PbPs is that you have people working at cross purposes: the DM plays the story but also wants to give players the chance to develop their characters and whatever they want to do. Some players want to advance the story at certain points because they're interested, others want to try alternate routes while still others want to do something silly. The current PbP format forces the game into a glacial pace as PbP games usually progress to a few posts per day per member, thus the DM logs in to find 3 different directions that rarely progress smoothly.


Sorry if I come across a little harsh. I'm not flat-out against paying for a game, but the idea of paying for a game run by someone whose playstyle and personality I know nothing about (no offense, but you claiming that your friend is a great DM doesn't mean anything here... you're not exactly an unbiased source), using a format that I already know is rife with issues, is just not something that appeals to me in the slightest.

I'll stipulate to that, I'm hardly unbiased, but I've had experience with many different DMs. But for now, let's say that is more a matter of establishing it in the future. For now, let's just agree in theory he's a good DM, or the plan would crash and fail pretty fast anyway. Plus, the point of this is constructive criticism.

For those saying, I can do that over skype, yes you could. You could also gather around a table with your friends, eat pizza, drink and play. But skype is the solution to not being able to do precisely that for a number of reasons. PbP is to skype what skype is to actual tabletop playing. So, for someone who doesnt have the time for skype sessions or perhaps doesn't have the time to start looking up games, finding a game he likes, working up a character only to not get in, meaning he has to repeat the process until he does find a game, which has no guarantee it will actually start, get off the ground, or progress in any way and last for more than a week.

So the way I see it, paying a small fee (e.g. $5 a month per person) to play a PbP game with someone who has a good idea what they're doing and is a good storyteller (yes, I know, you don't know me or the DM, I'm not asking you to pay right now, let's stipulate to his quality as a DM), that has a format designed to deal with many of the problems that plague PbP, of which you are informed upfront so you know what you're going into and a small team of people to run it smoothly isn't such a bad idea for someone who doesn't have the time to try out 10 different PbPs that don't work out after weeks of glacial posting. Plus, taking the time to make a PbP as immersive as possible for a medium that generally lacks is something few PbP DMs will do.

As such, this isn't so much aimed at the mainstream players, but those who don't have the time to go into a trial and error process of PbPs that flake and fail.

TheOneHawk
2015-03-06, 05:55 AM
If I could be outright guaranteed a really good game, yes I would pay for it.

Segev
2015-03-06, 10:12 AM
I think such a thing would have to be more rigidly formalized in order to meet the obligations to those who've paid who have expectations of continual progression (rather than glacial progression), and would risk drop-outs as a result (not that it's not a problem anyway).

Something like a fixed update schedule, with either a fixed number of posts allowed and a "use-it-or-lose-it" regarding the actions you can take before the next official update, or a more Play-by-eMail approach wherein the players use the OOC board to talk to each other and email their "move" for the update to the GM by a specified time, after which the GM actually writes the official post for the update period.

One of the biggest problems in play-by-post of any sort is combat, because of all the fine-grained interaction that must occur between parties involved in it, with decisions made at every step. Even managing a single round of combat per update period would be difficult.

Imagine a M-W-F update cycle (like many of the more active webcomics), wherein a whole round of combat is achieved in one update. Not only is that merely two days between updates to fully detail your own action and react to the actions of others in a format wherein it's hard to coordinate times to discuss anything (so back-and-forth will be monstrous), but you'll have most combats take at least a week, possibly a month.

All for, if we use D&D timescales, 72 seconds (yes, 1 minute, 12 seconds) of in-game time to pass!

So back to the glacial pace even with a rather vigorous update schedule. Now, this may not be as bad as it sounds, because (refering to web comics again) time compression can have similarly short periods pass in real time over much longer periods. The Grrl Power webcomic recently took months to go through what was probably only a couple of minutes of real time, with a massive battle.



Clever working with the system and a dedication on the GM's part to keeping on top of it could help.

Requiring everybody to submit their actions for the round and then trying to compile and resolve it, himself, with minimal check-back if he thinks something about their actions would have to change based on the environment changing might work. A solid web site with powerful tools for tracking and automating mechanical adjustments could also help.

But ultimately, this would be a lot of work and would thus require a fairly high cost of admission...which likely would not be seen as "worth it" by enough players to sustain it.


If I were to try to run a "professional GM" situation, I'd have an RL "RPG Club" that was run like an old-fashioned Gentleman's Club (not the modern "euphamism for a nudie bar" kind, but the kind that conjures images of wealthy british men in smoking jackets discussing their latest safaris where they hunted lions and elephants and made bets about flying around the world in a hot air balloon). Membership would entitle you to entry into the clubhouse and a few other perks, possibly including a "game entry fee" stipend.

Professional GMs would be employed by the club, and would advertise the games they wished to run as well as how many slots were available. Club mbmbers would be permitted to bid, using real money or their "entry fee stipend" in any combination, for the seats.

The real money for the club, however, would be made by its sales of concessions. Food and drink would be provided, as it is at any country club or the like, and paid for by the members as they like. Perhaps their stipend could cover some of it. The main purpose for the membership fees would be to help cover overhead and ensure that GMs are paid for. GMs who are in particular demand might get bonuses related to how much their games bring in (as represented by how hotly people bid for seats at their tables).



Even so, I'm not sure such a model would be sustainable. But the "make money on selling food and drink" angle is the biggest part, to me. It's how theaters do it. The membership fees mostly are there to both cover overhead and to help encourage players to view it as a valuable social obligation to maintain.

Rallicus
2015-03-06, 01:12 PM
So according to this layout, the DM would be making $240 a year from a group of 4 players. All he has to do is "work hard" and be committed to the Play by Post.

I could go on a long rant about my opinion concerning "professional DMs" being paid, but what it amounts to is this: if you're being paid for DMing, it should be for some viable reason. Time, transportation, etc. PbP literally has none of these reasons outside of "effort." I don't think a DM should EVER be paid for effort. He should be DMing because he loves to DM, and the results of his effort (the players interacting with his story) should be payment enough.

However, I could totally get behind the idea of an RPG club. I suppose it relates to my only experience in an LGS (I intentionally left out the F; it was far from Friendly) where I was subjected to such things as: homophobic slurs for asking about D&D, tentacle hentai discussion, clogged toilet, terrible odors, and a leather jacket-wearing man streaming hardcore pornography on his phone.

That's not the subject we're on, so I'll go back and say this: If Kid Jake's experience with being paid for running a PbP is any representation of how this will play out, it'll never work.

Segev
2015-03-06, 01:16 PM
I don't agree that GMs shouldn't be paid, nor taht they should only ever do it for the joy of GMing.

One could make the same argument for any profession.

However, I will point out that, rare as GMs can be, there are enough people willing to do it for free, out of love for doing it, that it probably isn't worth all that much, financially speaking, as a service. Certainly not enough to live on.

If it is, people will find a way to make it profitable. A job is worth as much as you can convince people to pay you to do it. No more, no less.

mephnick
2015-03-06, 01:32 PM
First, because you're paying you wouldn't drop out or allow the game to lapse and secondly, because you're paying you'd consider whether or not to play in the first place more seriously.


As someone who plays/organizes for intramural and competitive sports teams year round, I have some bad news for you.

Money has zero effect on commitment. If it did, gyms would be full 24 hours a day.

Winter_Wolf
2015-03-06, 01:37 PM
"Would you Pay to Play PbP?"

No, no I would not.

Knaight
2015-03-06, 01:43 PM
On the question of the thread - no. I wouldn't pay for a Skype game or an actual face to face game either, paying for play by post is downright preposterous.


I don't agree that GMs shouldn't be paid, nor taht they should only ever do it for the joy of GMing.

One could make the same argument for any profession.

GMing is a hobby, not a profession. Some people have managed to make some side money with it, which is between them and the people paying them as far as I'm concerned.

PersonMan
2015-03-06, 01:48 PM
Imagine a M-W-F update cycle (like many of the more active webcomics), wherein a whole round of combat is achieved in one update. Not only is that merely two days between updates to fully detail your own action and react to the actions of others in a format wherein it's hard to coordinate times to discuss anything (so back-and-forth will be monstrous), but you'll have most combats take at least a week, possibly a month.

All for, if we use D&D timescales, 72 seconds (yes, 1 minute, 12 seconds) of in-game time to pass!

So back to the glacial pace even with a rather vigorous update schedule.

Obviously it depends on the people involved, but in many cases an M-W-F update schedule would be slower, especially with people more invested (i.e. more likely to pay money), than you can get with a normal PbP. Anyone with 10-30 minutes of spare time in one block who sticks around can easily plan out a round or more of actions for combat.

Galen
2015-03-06, 01:50 PM
GMing is a hobby, not a profession. Some people have managed to make some side money with it, which is between them and the people paying them as far as I'm concerned.
Coding computer games is a profession, not a hobby. When a programmer writes a quest for Neverwinter Nights, he expects to be paid. When a sysadmin maintains a WoW server, he expects to be paid. People pay for ingame bonuses in Candy Crush, for crying out loud.

To answer the OP, I sense there might be a business model here, I just don't know what it is or how to get there. I personally would pay for D&D if it was ... I don't know, let's say, if it was the adventure of a lifetime. Something really special. Which I can't even quantify at this point. Merely the promise of a "good game" won't do it for me. I've been in enough good games for free. It needs to be amazing.


there are enough people willing to do it for freePerhaps the business model should start with, I dunno, making those people disappear? I jest, of course.

Knaight
2015-03-06, 02:11 PM
Coding computer games is a profession, not a hobby. When a programmer writes a quest for Neverwinter Nights, he expects to be paid. When a sysadmin maintains a WoW server, he expects to be paid. People pay for ingame bonuses in Candy Crush, for crying out loud.

This isn't even remotely similar. Writing and publishing RPGs and RPG stuff is a profession, and is actually comparable to the programming (or art, or any of the other parts in computer game publishing). GMing? That's one of the people who is at the table, playing the game. The programmer writing a quest for Neverwinter Nights is more along the lines of somebody writing and publishing a module, which is then played by some entirely separate group.

Segev
2015-03-06, 03:01 PM
GMing is a hobby, not a profession. Some people have managed to make some side money with it, which is between them and the people paying them as far as I'm concerned.As are business interactions, generally speaking, between customer and providor of custom. As I said, it's worth what you can get people to pay you to do it. Most GMs only demand (and receive) the attendence of their players.


Obviously it depends on the people involved, but in many cases an M-W-F update schedule would be slower, especially with people more invested (i.e. more likely to pay money), than you can get with a normal PbP. Anyone with 10-30 minutes of spare time in one block who sticks around can easily plan out a round or more of actions for combat.

Sure. Though even the most rapid updating PbPs I've seen have died when the momentum flagged. It becomes a self-fulfiling spiral, as everybody's waiting for somebody else to post. Having a regular update schedule - whatever that is and however often - at least gives a "mark" by which to measure it.

The trouble is, you can't know what people will expect to be different nor how they'll behave differently if they're paying for the GMing. All we have to go on is free games for reference.

kaoskonfety
2015-03-06, 03:29 PM
Its an interesting idea... trying to make it fly at all...

Assume you are running several game groups in parallel - likely 2-3 differnt core plots over say 10 games to bring down your workload/offer a unified product

Some nominal charge per player/day or month - maybe the Patron website billing model

I'd assume you are looking to live off of this so lets ramen it up at up to $2000 a month income target with the understanding it will dip below this from time to time...

10 games, 4 players a game

You'd be looking at the range of $50 a player per month of play. At $5 a month (far more likely your average) you are looking at $200 aprox income and that is far closer to what you might expect people to pay. How much time would running 10 play by post games take? I"m going with "alot" but it would get easier over time (as you develop content, filler descriptions and some standardization). and also harder - branching player expectation and play etc...

You can also bring the cost per head down doing more games - not sure where we have transformed this from a light income sourse/serious hobby to a full time job, these things each take some doing.

I'm seeing where it might get happening - but you'd have an uphill battle and would need to build up over time - maybe alot of time. And this is before I get into hosting costs and other expenses. I think I could be done though.

For all the people saying "no I would never pay" - what if it was The Giant polling for interest for a game he was setting up (profits to charity perhaps)?, or Gygax (were he still around)? Vin Diesel? Even without the celebrity draw - does $5 a month for a reliable and well organized mon-wed-fri play by post sound unreasonable? I pay $8 a month for netflix a barely use, some more for internet access I cannot pretend is not primarily an entertainment expense, some more TV, phone apps... I can't be the only one?

My actual in person gaming ALSO costs money - gas, take out and when I'm hosting of course the dishes (disposable or having to wash them, pots, pans, beer, wine, lasagina).

For my part I'd not pay - I've tried PbP a few times and I do not like it.

I might pay to read an archive of a few good play by post games though - or at least put up with advertising while I browse - its just another kind of web comic at that point, really.

KillianHawkeye
2015-03-06, 03:35 PM
People pay for ingame bonuses in Candy Crush, for crying out loud.

Yeah, this is probably the main money-making market for a scheme like this. People with addict mentalities who'll pay large amounts of money on "free" entertainment like Farmville or the like. Although personally, I question whether or not those type of people have the intellect or mental patience for a complex, slow-paced game such as D&D or most other non-freeform RPG systems. The addict hook almost always involves an instant payoff of some kind.

Galen
2015-03-06, 03:41 PM
So, maybe the game is free, but hey, here's a magic mart with a nice sword+1 ... remember that monster that was immune to nonmagical weapons? Your character doesn't have 3,000 gp? That's okay, the storekeep also accepts US dollars.

KillianHawkeye
2015-03-06, 03:45 PM
So, maybe the game is free, but hey, here's a magic mart with a nice sword+1 ... remember that monster that was immune to nonmagical weapons? Your character doesn't have 3,000 gp? That's okay, the storekeep also accepts US dollars.

LOL, now we're talking! :smallamused:

kemmotar
2015-03-06, 03:56 PM
To answer the OP, I sense there might be a business model here, I just don't know what it is or how to get there. I personally would pay for D&D if it was ... I don't know, let's say, if it was the adventure of a lifetime. Something really special. Which I can't even quantify at this point. Merely the promise of a "good game" won't do it for me. I've been in enough good games for free. It needs to be amazing.

The business model I'd be considering is appealing to players who have the desire to play RPGs but not the time to do so traditionally, this also opens up the opportunity for such players to expand into other settings. Ofc there are GMs out there who do it for free, the same could be said of the "oldest profession" which I will avoid going into so as not to become vulgar. The point is, plenty of GMs out there will do it for free, but usually they do so for friends and satellite groups (i.e. friends of friends and so on and so forth, we can also put the majority of of those who do so via skype in the same general category.

PbP is potentially a different subset of people, I've seen plenty of games playtesting settings, houserules or campaigns for RL groups. These are the games most prone, I would venture to say, to failure. The GM isn't 100% into it and let's face it, why would he be, he's running a game for complete strangers and doesn't get 1/10 of the satisfaction he would get from seeing jaws drop at the plot twist or the chatter after a good session. I'm not ofc trying to speak for every GM, i'm just making gross generalisations. Thus we have a subset of people who are frustrated because PbPs have the tendency to die 90% of the time and usually before they actually get into the story and are rife with problems, and a different subset of people who go to PbPs to run campaigns but without the usual motivations and attached satisfaction.

That's why a GM for a PbP should/can be paid, if he's doing it for none of the usual reasons and with none of the motivations. Plus, this creates the opportunity for a more organised setting where players can apply for games without competing with 20 other people for 4 slots. Creating a character and backstory takes time and it should, not getting into a game will always be disappointing as you put in X amount of time and energy into it, only to be disappointed by better backstories, party composition, personal preference or because your character doesn't fit the story that well. Finding the right game and making a character can take time, a process some may not have the time to repeat until they find a game and then again a couple of weeks later when the game flames out. Paying, say $5 a month (or less, I don't know) isn't that bad for a structured campaign built around players or at least at the players' suggestion.

As to the $240 a year just for someone GMing, it's not just that, if it were just that then yes, why would you pay. The fee is intended to cover, aside from the GMs time, the time of other involved in administering the game, the creation of the website, server space, time investment before hand to find a format that works for PbPs, campaign and associated material (pictures, recordings, bla bla).



I'm seeing where it might get happening - but you'd have an uphill battle and would need to build up over time - maybe alot of time. And this is before I get into hosting costs and other expenses. I think I could be done though.
.

If you assume only one person, then yes, but a light hobby from a small number of people would significantly reduce the work load and allow for different writing styles and playstyles, e.g. having assigned roles in certain campaigns to give more variety and speed up the action in certain scenes without DM input. This would also improve the speed at which the games goes, especially for battles, which is a problem. This isn't meant to be a main income, but more of a side income turning a hobby into something more useful with some added commitment.

As for those saying, DMing is a hobby and you shouldn't be paid for that, go tell that to football players. All of it started as a hobby, a way to exercise or however you want to see it and ended up being a multimullion profession and multibillion enterprise.

Jacob.Tyr
2015-03-06, 04:39 PM
I could see the draw to a website that had professional paid DM's and was advertiser supported. I follow multiple threads on multiple subforums of multiple forums each day while working 60 hours a week, I could reasonably see myself running a half-dozen games at once in PbP.

Maybe every time you want to post you have to watch a 2 minute advertisement, and you can pay to remove/reduce ads. But I don't think it'd be easy to draw people in to a pay to play model without first drawing them in to your site/game and having a way to make money off of that.

Rallicus
2015-03-06, 05:17 PM
The debate of what constitutes a profession/job could go on forever. I'm one who believes that DMing should be something you do because you enjoy it, not because you get paid for it. Catering to a group by running a game that they want to play but that you don't defeats the purpose; now it's a job, and your DMing becomes work.

Of course, if you end up enjoying it then you get the best of both worlds. Getting paid for doing what you love and having fun while doing it is a rare thing, and more power to that DM if they pull it off.


As to the $240 a year just for someone GMing, it's not just that, if it were just that then yes, why would you pay. The fee is intended to cover, aside from the GMs time, the time of other involved in administering the game, the creation of the website, server space, time investment before hand to find a format that works for PbPs, campaign and associated material (pictures, recordings, bla bla).

Pointless. You shouldn't have to pay for a website when there's plenty of free options available (not to insult OOTS forums, but Mythweavers has a ton of useful features for PbP such as subforums, private messages in posts, extensive dicerollers, character sheets for handfuls of systems, etc etc etc).

Also, your notion of PbP failures falling on a DM who isn't invested is -- quite frankly -- insulting. I've been running a VTM PbP for close to a year now. Am I the minority? I don't know. What I do know is that players are just as much to blame as a DM for a PbP falling through; the very nature of the medium is too laid back, and without a rigid posting schedule people are bound to flake. DM and players both.

I think the ultimate consensus of this forum is "no" for what you've proposed. That shouldn't stop you from trying, however.

Just don't be surprised if nobody is interested.

ngilop
2015-03-06, 05:31 PM
NO, I would never pay any amount of money to play a PbP.

especially when I am paying for not a custom experience


especially when the DM is not the best DM ever to have existed in the milky way galaxy

especially when the simple fact that other sites (such as http://rpol.net/) do it better.


especially when the DM and any other players cannot gurantee me the game will last (can anybody give me with certaiant that a freak accident WILL NOT happen in 20 seconds and a plane crashes into their house?)


I cn actually list 49 more reasons why I personallywould never pay for something that I have never had o pay for at all in any way shape or form ( and I mean not just PbP but face to face and video chat and others) but I do not want to keep beating a dead horse while throwing salt.


so in short No I never ever would.

Milodiah
2015-03-06, 05:52 PM
Making something a subscription-based service doesn't improve the quality of the individuals using said service. If it did, Xbox Live would be full of mature, pleasant adults...

Anxe
2015-03-06, 06:47 PM
I would use this system if there was a penalty to whoever left. The leaver would have to pay everyone else twice as much as they paid. Then I'd join as many campaigns as I could and post minimal amounts in them til someone else left and make hella money.

But actually pay for PbP? If I suggested this to my group they'd laugh.

kemmotar
2015-03-06, 08:31 PM
Also, your notion of PbP failures falling on a DM who isn't invested is -- quite frankly -- insulting. I've been running a VTM PbP for close to a year now. Am I the minority? I don't know. What I do know is that players are just as much to blame as a DM for a PbP falling through; the very nature of the medium is too laid back, and without a rigid posting schedule people are bound to flake. DM and players both.

Why would it be insulting when I explicitly said gross generalisation and I dont speak for every DM? The majority of PbPs fail, that was the concensus of the thread aside from whatever I said, and I ascribed fault to both players and DM. Given that you have been running a VTM game for a close to a year now does make you the minority no matter how you see it. I've joined perhaps 20 PbPs, perhaps more. One ran for a year and a half, perhaps more. The rest of them died within one month or less, one never made it from recruitment to IC (I was always an active participant) and even the one that ran for a year and a half was more a playtest for an RL party (as far as I remember) and did not in fact finish because the DM ended it prematurely for personal reasons.

Whatever the case, seeing as I've actually gotten very little actual feedback, resounding nos and the idea of money for D&D has been treated as the utmost heresy, perhaps this was the wrong place to ask given that players here will generally be more active and as I did say the idea would be aimed at a different demographic. Perhaps the idea won't fly at all and perhaps it will. Many thanks to those who did give feedback, it did give me some potential ideas on how a way forward might look like.

PersonMan
2015-03-07, 03:09 AM
Sure. Though even the most rapid updating PbPs I've seen have died when the momentum flagged. It becomes a self-fulfiling spiral, as everybody's waiting for somebody else to post. Having a regular update schedule - whatever that is and however often - at least gives a "mark" by which to measure it.

The trouble is, you can't know what people will expect to be different nor how they'll behave differently if they're paying for the GMing. All we have to go on is free games for reference.

I think that a system like 'after X time with no player posts, the GM will step in and move things along'. Something similar, though never actually codified, has worked amazingly in games I've been in in the past. After a day or so of no one posting, the GM just grabs the game and shoves it forwards.

blacklight101
2015-03-07, 08:54 AM
I wouldnt pay for it, personally. There are recruitments all the time on free forums like this and it will always be the rare game that survives in this format as is.

The glacial progress as many others have mentioned is a huge issue, that has killed every game i've been in so far. That and player/dm dropouts.

It's the rare game that gets the proper group together and survives this pace, and even then, tabletop rp is so much faster and is still pretty much as' free' as needing to get books for any other game.

Segev
2015-03-09, 08:26 AM
Part of the trouble is that running an RPG session takes at least 3-4 hours, if done IRL. Prep time for the GM is probably another 3-5 hours, though he could conceivably push that down to 1-2 if he's got a lot of experience and can re-use some elements (e.g. prepared modules).

So let's be generous and assume a GM could spend 5ish hours on any given role-playing session.

Games generally start having trouble with too many players if you exceed 7 or so players (and most conventions I've seen will actively split tables of 8 or more into tables of at least 4).

Seven players for 5 hours, assuming a 10 hour work-day (two games per day) would be approximately 50 hour work-weeks (assuming no weekend game sessions).

Let's examine some price points.

If it cost $5/player per session and 7 players in each session, that would be $70/day, or $350/week. That's $18,200/year, assuming no weeks off, ever. No sick days. Good luck even convincing players to show up every single week; there will be times they don't want to (e.g. Christmas, birthdays, that new movie coming out). Let's again be fairly generous and cut that by 10% for players skipping or the GM's own time off: $16,380/year.

Up that to $10/player per session, and you double it to $32,760/year. This is a reasonable living salary.

Notably, however, comparable events might include M:tG and FNM. The most I've seen charged for Magic tournements wherein you're not explicitly buying cards (e.g. sealed and draft formats) is the $5/player mark. I imagine it would be tough to push that to $10/player.


Then factor in things like the difficulty of getting players for morning or late evening sessions on weekdays, and...

...well, that's why we're really talking about PbP.

I figure that you could probably spend 5 hours/week on a given PbP game, if you can spend 5 hours/week on a given RL game. You actually could get away with charging weekly regardless of specific activity on a specific day at a specific time, so we could safely up it to $18,200/year for $5/person per week, assuming 7-person games and 50-hour work-weeks.

Note that that's $20/month, and you're now competing with MMORPGs, which typically charge closer to $12-$15/month.

And, of course, there are web hosting fees associated with the traffic.

You'd probably do better having some sort of sponsors-related ARG that you run in addition, where players in your games can go on "quests" which take them to sponsors' web sites and earn them in-game perks. But such crass commercialism would probably be a turn-off to many gamers.


In short, the amount of work that goes into it would be difficult to make sustainable given the number of customers who could be served at a time and the likely willingness to pay compared to what other diversions cost.

Knaight
2015-03-10, 12:31 PM
Part of the trouble is that running an RPG session takes at least 3-4 hours, if done IRL. Prep time for the GM is probably another 3-5 hours, though he could conceivably push that down to 1-2 if he's got a lot of experience and can re-use some elements (e.g. prepared modules).

This is questionable. 2-3 hours for a session is entirely possible, and prep time is highly system dependent. Rules heavy systems being run by preparation heavy GMs might hit the 3-5 hour range, rules light systems run by improv heavy GMs are generally in the 5-15 minute range, if that.

Segev
2015-03-10, 12:49 PM
This is questionable. 2-3 hours for a session is entirely possible, and prep time is highly system dependent. Rules heavy systems being run by preparation heavy GMs might hit the 3-5 hour range, rules light systems run by improv heavy GMs are generally in the 5-15 minute range, if that.

Alright. let's call it 2:15 per 7 subscribers.

Make it 9 hour days for easy math.

That's a 44-hour work week, and getting 4(games/day)x7(subscribers/game)x5(days/week) in that time. 140 subscribers.

If you charge $5/week per subscriber, you're looking at $700/week for a 44-hour work week. That's $36,400/year. Livable, certainly. Even comfortable for a single guy.

$10/week would be $1400/week. Could raise a family on $72,800/year easily.

Of course, that requires 140 people who love your games so much that they'll pay $10/week/game they're in to have you GM for them.

Knaight
2015-03-10, 12:55 PM
I'm not calling it a viable business model (particularly as there's a time cost in marketing and scheduling that isn't being counted at all, and while PbP mitigates the second one it likely makes the first worse), just questioning the per-session numbers a bit.

Kid Jake
2015-03-10, 01:14 PM
I'm not calling it a viable business model (particularly as there's a time cost in marketing and scheduling that isn't being counted at all, and while PbP mitigates the second one it likely makes the first worse), just questioning the per-session numbers a bit.

Yeah, the marketing costs really needs to be considered with something like this because this needs ridiculous amounts of exposure for what little profit there is to be had. For every $20 I bring in I've probably already dropped at least $5 of it in advertising on the off-chance I reach a new customer...and that's for a $5, 4 hour session to be played day or night at their convenience with as few or as many people as they want to join them. Tips are where I actually make money and it usually takes several sessions before they start showing up.

It really doesn't help that the only places you could guarantee finding your client base are also the kinds of sites that already give it away for free.

Flickerdart
2015-03-10, 01:15 PM
Of course, that requires 140 people who love your games so much that they'll pay $10/week/game they're in to have you GM for them.
And good luck getting that, OP. $10/week is $520 a year, and I can't think of anyone who's drop a cool half thou for the privilege of playing in a medium that's vastly inferior to a free in-person game.

Knaight
2015-03-10, 01:18 PM
Yeah, the marketing costs really needs to be considered with something like this because this needs ridiculous amounts of exposure for what little profit there is to be had. For every $20 I bring in I've probably already dropped at least $5 of it in advertising on the off-chance I reach a new customer...and that's for a $5, 4 hour session to be played day or night at their convenience with as few or as many people as they want to join them. Tips are where I actually make money and it usually takes several sessions before they start showing up.

The costs are part of it, but marketing is also labor intensive. It will eat time, and time spent marketing is time spent not getting paid. This just isn't feasible as a business model. At best it's feasible as some small amount of money on the side, and even there I wouldn't be optimistic.

Kid Jake
2015-03-10, 01:31 PM
The costs are part of it, but marketing is also labor intensive. It will eat time, and time spent marketing is time spent not getting paid. This just isn't feasible as a business model. At best it's feasible as some small amount of money on the side, and even there I wouldn't be optimistic.

Oh, I 100% agree. Only reason I do it is out of desperation, definitely not because I view myself as some tabletop maestro looking to get rich; it's basically just amusing virtual panhandling. As a means to earn a living, I think it ranks just below collecting cans off the side of the road in terms of sustainability.

Segev
2015-03-11, 11:31 AM
You would probably have better luck creating some sort of club. This is also hard to do in a purely online sense, because there are already so many special-interest forums where people can go and do...really about anything one can do for social interaction online.

A club has to provide services that justify the costs to the members. There's a reason they tend to still be upper-class things. Not exclusively, of course; the various "Elk's Lodges" and other things that were apparently a bigger deal back in the 50s and 60s count. Heck, Boy Scouts counts.

But you'd need to provide a service beyond merely GMing and web hosting.

If you were doing IRL games, I'd suggest a gaming club that basically runs a cross between a kareoke bar (i.e. lots of private rooms for gaming) and a gaming store (books for sale or borrow to cover a wide variety of gaming interests), with paid hosts and at least a soda bar with a well-stocked selection of snacks. Like a theater, I'd expect to make a lot of the profit off the concessions. Club dues for membership would be to cover overhead like the building and some of the staff.

You'd need to make sure there were ample social lounges, and membership dues would also have to cover any staff GMs who are available to run games.

This...is not a cheap prospect, and would either be an expensive gaming club to be a member of, or would have to be a large and successful one.

Consider what you'd want as your yearly salary if you were a professional GM. Then consider how many hours you can put into working. Determine how many games you could run, personally, in that time.

Now consider that you're only a PART of the costs of overhead.



As a less grand endeavor, if you're willing to do it as a supplementary source of income, you could do one game per night and invite people to your house...and serve dinner. Which people pay you for.

This may still require license fees and such to your local government(s).

Businesses are not easy to start and run.

endur
2015-03-12, 11:47 PM
There have been pay by email and pay by mail games in the past. I don't know if any of those game providers still exist, the market has likely collapsed due to the proliferation of alternatives.

137beth
2015-03-13, 02:21 AM
Everyone else already gave their meaningful, serious answers, and I agree with the tenor of the responses (i.e., "no").
Hence, I will just point out one insignificant thing that bugged me:

Would you Pay to Play PbP?
"Play pbp" means "Play Play by Post".

So, no, I would not Pay to Play Play by Post. I also would not Pay to Play by Post. I'm speaking as someone who does pbp, in spite of its glacial pace. I still wouldn't pay someone just for DMing.

In face-to-face games, if a player wants to use a system/supplement that I don't have access to, I ask them to bring it to me. So, in that sense, someone can 'pay' to play an obscure system by buying the DM a copy of the rules (or lending the player's copy). I don't think I'd want to do that in a pbp setting, because in online play there is a much greater chance of there being a DM who already knows the system in question.

Dimers
2015-03-14, 02:30 PM
PbP is much more attractive to me than face-to-face or Skype due to the slow way I think, giving me more time to make my character come alive and be awesome. I don't enjoy almost any television, don't watch movies, don't spend a great deal of time reading ... basically, gaming is my primary entertainment, and PbP is my primary kind of gaming. I would be willing to pay for high-quality PbP like the kind that is more likely (note I don't say "only likely") to come from someone being compensated for their work, whether because they take it more seriously or because they have more money to deal with non-game problems in their life. Money also helps a PbP by enabling the higher-tier services in some sites, e.g. Roll20 or D&D Insider.

I would not join a game and start paying without seeing some evidence of past success -- reading a previous game's posts, for example. Simple enough to arrange. A rating system could be built to reflect quality of players and GMs alike for different genres and systems, building both community and business as it gets used.

Being rather poor myself, I wouldn't be able to pay much. I can certainly afford $10 a month for something I'd enjoy a lot. It's worth more to me, if it works -- $30 or $40 a month would be more fair for the entertainment value I'd get out of it -- but when I'm living hand-to-mouth already, that's just not feasible for me to pay. Most people have different entertainment preferences than I do (I follow no sports, I never watch TV and my favorite D&D is 4e), so my valuation of the service is not likely to be a good basis for a business, even though $30-per-player-per-month could make it 'a living'.

I've been in several unsuccessful free PbPs, but also one that's been running more than three years.

Faily
2015-03-15, 10:07 AM
Perhaps it's just the community I play with on play-by-post, but the thought of paying for those games sounds absurd.

We have a pretty decently sized L5R pbp-community, with some games reaching up to 20-30-ish active players for the biggest games, handled by 2 to 3 GMs in one game. The games are free, though people may donate through Paypal to keep the hosting-site going and such but it's hardly mandatory, not even for those who wish to run a game. Games last about 2 months or so, then there is usually a break usually a month or more break before the next installment or a new game starts up.

Of course, the reason why people invest their time in this and stick around is because they like playing with the others as well as having fun with the game itself. I don't think demanding pay for the hosting or the GMing would have any positive effect on it, and would most likely drive people away instead.

As a business idea, it sounds pretty bad since people would instead go to those who offer online games for free, and paying for a GM does not even indicate that the GM is good or that the game will be good.