[3.5] What happens if I give a black pudding Fast Healing?

[Mr Adventurer]

I mean, what happens when it splits? Do the two new puddings heal up to the original's total hit points, or is half that value their hit point maximum?

[gooddragon1]

I mean, what happens when it splits? Do the two new puddings heal up to the original's total hit points, or is half that value their hit point maximum?

If a DM wanted to they could say that it does. The intent seems to be that the split ones maximum HP is half.

[goto124]

Unlimited black pudding?

Unlimited food! *om nom nom*

Let's start a Black Pudding Shop! We'll make millions!

[weckar]

You'd probably figure out the mystery of BP reproduction.

[BWR]

In most cases I would rule it that fast healing only heals them up to their new maximum of half the original's total. However, like all new puddings they would slowly grow to to full size.
There may be some super pudding that could quickly grow full-sized puddings by budding.

[atemu1234]

In most cases I would rule it that fast healing only heals them up to their new maximum of half the original's total. However, like all new puddings they would slowly grow to to full size.
There may be some super pudding that could quickly grow full-sized puddings by budding.

There's actually a template for that in Advanced Bestiary. Mitotic, I think. Or something. It's been a while.

[Necroticplague]

I mean, what happens when it splits? Do the two new puddings heal up to the original's total hit points, or is half that value their hit point maximum?

They'd heal up to full after a little bit. Splitting says they have half the hit points, but that they are otherwise identical. This would include the max hit points.

[Psyren]

They'd heal up to full after a little bit. Splitting says they have half the hit points, but that they are otherwise identical. This would include the max hit points.

This is the answer. It basically means you have to damage/kill them fast or you run the risk of doubling or quadrupling the encounter strength; this should be factored into their CR as a favorable condition at a minimum.

[Mr Adventurer]

Aha! Thanks Np and Psyren, that makes sense.

The reason I ask is that I've been thinking about creating a 'world devourer' monster that can get released from containment and threaten everything, and I was wondering about starting with a black pudding, advancing it to maximum HD (that's 30 BTW), and adding the Paragon template. Add in a bit of fluff that specifies, similarly to the stuff on Swarms, that each creature tries to stay contiguous with the others, and there's a nice The Blob style monster.

Possibly I'll look at other templates too, to shore up any other weaknesses.

Edit to add: by my count, the CR of such a thing would be 27 (7 base + 5 for new Ooze HD + 15 for the Paragon template), but that seems a bit high. Possibly CR 28 once bumped for size increase!

[Psyren]

Off the top of my head, a not-so-obvious weakness would be vile damage - the ooze(s)' fast healing wouldn't work, allowing an enterprising evildoer (or a neutral character willing to go the distance) a way of taking it/them out for good.

[Mr Adventurer]

Further thought: are oozes spawned from Split part of the main creature, or are they new creatures for CR, EL, and XP purposes?

[Psyren]

Further thought: are oozes spawned from Split part of the main creature, or are they new creatures for CR, EL, and XP purposes?

I would not consider them to change the CR of the encounter under normal circumstances - that ability (Split) is already factored into the ooze's CR.

However, if you add a synergistic ability to the ooze (like fast healing, which will work on both of the "children") then you would at that point impact the encounter's CR.

[Necroticplague]

Further thought: are oozes spawned from Split part of the main creature, or are they new creatures for CR, EL, and XP purposes?

This sounds firmly in DM's call territory. By default, though, the ability to summon reinforcements mid-fight is already incorporated into something's CR (in this case, that of the black pudding). In this case, it might be worse a bump or two up, since the fast healing and splitting combination count as favorable circumstances.

[Mr Adventurer]

I've started building this thing. It has Dex, Wis, and Cha 16! Not having feats is a big disappointment though.

It has no way to effectively use two of the three SLAs from Paragon, and given its role I'm going to give it the Gelatinous Cube's Engulf ability to make up for it.

I'll post it once it's done.

[Bad Wolf]

Your players will hate you forever.

[gooddragon1]

Your players will hate you forever.

If you've ever played the exile/avernum series and run into a doomguard, that's pretty much what they are.

[atemu1234]

Your players will hate you forever.

Nah, this isn't the worst thing I've seen for things like this.

I once pitted a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon against a party. It ended with tears. Delicious, delicious tears.

[Bad Wolf]

Nah, this isn't the worst thing I've seen for things like this.

I once pitted a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon against a party. It ended with tears. Delicious, delicious tears.

Played intelligently with good spells?

[goto124]

DM, the black pudding looks delicious! Can I eat it? Please?

[Crake]

Add the fiendish template, and it will have an int of 3, giving it feats and skillpoints.

[Mr Adventurer]

Add the fiendish template, and it will have an int of 3, giving it feats and skillpoints.

Yeah, or Sentry Ooze from Dungeonscape gives Int 2 as well. I feel like an Intelligence score is not appropriate for this thing though... Though I could live with Int 2, the combo of Sentry plus Paragon would be Int 17!

(There's also basically nothing that Fiendish gives that Paragon doesn't already have better, too.)

[atemu1234]

Played intelligently with good spells?

Yes. Not to mention an epic progression 'brewed for > 20 hit dice for VoP.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Nah, this isn't the worst thing I've seen for things like this.

I once pitted a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon against a party. It ended with tears. Delicious, delicious tears.

Oh yeah? I've got one better: Wyrm Black Dragon/Sorcerer 1/Archmage 4. (Granted, based on the posts of yours I've seen, you probably played your dragon better than I played mine, but hey.)

On-topic, well, I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said. Nice oozey bad guy. Constantly regenerating pudding is making me conceptually hungry though.

[BWR]

Heard during one of my games: "The good news is you're stable at -9 hp. The bad news is you're grappled by an elder black pudding."

[Mr Adventurer]

So here's what I've got:

The horror known only in fragmented ancient recordings as 'the Black Death' is a thing of endless hunger and destruction, serving no will other than its endless need to feed and annihilate. Its form is that of a massive, continuous undulation of black, steaming ooze which flows at terrifying speeds, tendrils lashing out with awful destructive force at all creatures as it reduces them to puddles of dissolved flesh and absorbs them forever.

Black Death blob, CR 28
N Gargantuan Ooze
Init +3; Senses Blind, blindsight 60'; Listen +3, Spot +3
Languages -


AC 32, touch 23, flat-footed 29 (-4 size, +3 Dex, +9 natural, +12 luck, +12 insight)
Hp 1140 (30 HD); fast healing 20; DR 10/epic; split
Immune All mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects); gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight; poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning; critical hits; flanking
Resist Cold 10, Fire 10; SR 53
Fort +36; Ref +23; Will +23


Speed 60', climb 60'
Melee Slam +60 (3d6+37 plus 3d6+20 acid); improved grab
Space 20'; Reach 20'
Base Attack +22; Grapple +76
Attack Options Improved Grab, Constrict 3d6+37 plus 3d6+20 acid, Epic strike
Special Actions Engulf
Spell-like Abilities 3/day - Greater Dispel Magic, Haste (CL 15)


Abilities Str 44, Dex 16, Con 42, Int --, Wis 16, Cha 16
Special Attacks Improved Grab, Engulf, Acid, Constrict, Spell-like abilities
Feats -
Skills Climb +25, Spot +3, Listen +3
Advancement none


Of One Need (Ex) The statistics in this block represent a single "unit" of the Black Death, in game terms. When the Death is released, there are four of these units or blobs. A new blob is created by the Black Death's split ability, below. However, all blobs always attempt to stay contiguous with at least one other blob (in the same way that swarm-subtype creatures do). Blobs that are separated from the whole can act independently, but if there are no other creatures within blindsense range then they return to the mass. As long as blobs are in contact with one another this way, they share sensory information. Blobs can sense one another at greater ranges than their blindsense indicates, and move to reform with each other when separated by up to 600 feet. The blobs all act on the same initiative count.
Acid (Ex) The creature secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly, but does not affect stone. Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage, and the opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed on DC 54 Reflex saves. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a Black Death blob also dissolves immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 54 Reflex save. The save DCs are Constitution-based. The Black Death blob's acidic touch deals 41 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.
Epic strike The blob's natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Constrict (Ex) A Black Death blob deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check. The opponent’s clothing and armor take a -4 penalty on Reflex saves against the acid.
Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a Black Death blob must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.
Engulf (Ex) A Black Death blob can simply mow down Gargantuan or smaller creatures as a standard action, flowing up against them and piling over them. A blob cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The blob merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the blob, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 55 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the blob moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the blob's acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based.
Split (Ex) Slashing and piercing weapons that overcome its Damage Reduction deal no damage to a Black Death blob. Instead the creature splits into two identical blobs, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A blob with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points. The creatures' Fast Healing returns each blob to the normal maximum hit points (1140) in time unless the blob is destroyed.
Skills A Black Death blob has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

Tactics
As soon as it senses creatures, one of the blobs activates its Haste spell-like ability. Blobs always try to stay Hasted when they can sense creatures, but don't 'waste' their uses of the ability if they are already under its effect from another blob.

If they are under a damaging or impeding magical effect, a blob targets itself with a Greater Dispel Magic. As they are mindless, they are not capable of further discernment. However, if one blob is under a negative magical effect and is contiguous with another blob, but cannot use its Greater Dispel Magic for any reason, then the other blob may attempt to do so and target the first.

[thethird]

Pretty cool. I would use the mob template though

[Mr Adventurer]

Pretty cool. I would use the mob template though

Cheers. The Mob template from DMG 2 can only be applied to creatures up to Large size though - this guys starts at Huge for a normal Black Pudding!

[thethird]

Then... use spellwarped (an inherited template) to change it's creature type to aberration and then use dungeonbreed (another inherited template) to reduce it's size to large and then apply mob.

[Necroticplague]

All I can think of is how easy an encounter it is if you simply wait some 150 feet up in the air and plink away with an Energy Bow for a couple hours.

[Mr Adventurer]

Well yes, like the other oozes it only has a very narrow applicability. Obviously. Still it looks scary.