Listen Check DCs

[Jowgen]

I have a player who has decided to optimize Listen via Keen Eared Scout. He's invested considerably to get his Listen Modifier up, and I want to make sure that he gets his due, but not to a silly level.

So what I am looking for is a list of a) situational listen modifiers other than those from the DMG and Rules Compendium, and b) examples of listen check DCs given anywhere.

Ideally I'd also like to be able to extrapolate concrete Listen check DCs for certain things; including but not limited to: a copper coin falling onto the road, a dagger being drawn, a door unlocking, an arrow whizzing through the air, a humanoid breathing, and last but not least, the sound of a heart beating inside someone's chest. Any advice on how to go about this would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Calimehter]

I have a player who has decided to optimize Listen via Keen Eared Scout. He's invested considerably to get his Listen Modifier up, and I want to make sure that he gets his due, but not to a silly level.

So what I am looking for is a list of a) situational listen modifiers other than those from the DMG and Rules Compendium, and b) examples of listen check DCs given anywhere.

Ideally I'd also like to be able to extrapolate concrete Listen check DCs for certain things; including but not limited to: a copper coin falling onto the road, a dagger being drawn, a door unlocking, an arrow whizzing through the air, a humanoid breathing, and last but not least, the sound of a heart beating inside someone's chest. Any advice on how to go about this would be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

Being in the woods doubles the distance penalty (-2 every 10 feet). I could have sworn that there were some rules covering the noise from crowds somewhere, but I can't recall where off the top of my head.

Hearing breathing and/or heartbeats at all seems a bit drastic, given that no amount of Move Silently will oppose that (since the target might not be moving at all). That seems like something that would fall under a listen-boosting feat like Hear the Unseen rather than just a big Listen modifier. The rules for Hear the Unseen sure seem to describe that sort of situation quite well, esp. since the feat doesn't require your opponent to be moving in order to hear them.

Drawing a dagger is nominally a move action, so you could argue that its just a Move Silently (or maybe Sleight of Hand) check opposing the Listen check. It makes sense that some folks would be better at keeping it quiet than others.

A metallic coin hitting a hard surface after a fall would seem to me to be about as noisy as a person in metal armor walking slow and trying not to make any noise, so a DC of 5 would apply per the Listen rules. Even if you assume that it isn't any louder than a standard boot footfall, the DC would only be 10. Likewise an arrow is pretty close to people whispering, which is a DC of 15 to hear per the listen rules. None of these targets are very hard to hit for an optimized Listen check, but really, if they are happening 10 feet away, they shouldn't be hard.

[Coidzor]

Jowgen: There's probably a number of examples in Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Frostburn, Sandstorm, and Stormwrack, maybe Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel, too. If you haven't looked at the Epic Spot and Listen skills, well, I link the d20srd.org versions to Calimehter below here. Races of Destiny and Races of Stone would be the next places to check. Probably Races of the Wild, too.

There's some discussion on the general subject of example skill uses here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?243417-3-5-List-of-skill-uses-outside-of-the-SRD).

Races of Stone has, from checking some notes I have here, the ability to estimate distances underground using a DC 25 listen check around page 130 if you want to get the full details for yourself. Something about eavesdropping on people in public/crowds/festivals/riots is in Races of Destiny, I believe, around page 150. Which should also give you a convenient source of modifiers for whether you hear something like an arrow being shot before the body falls or the screaming starts.


Hearing breathing and/or heartbeats at all seems a bit drastic, given that no amount of Move Silently will oppose that (since the target might not be moving at all). That seems like something that would fall under a listen-boosting feat like Hear the Unseen rather than just a big Listen modifier. The rules for Hear the Unseen sure seem to describe that sort of situation quite well, esp. since the feat doesn't require your opponent to be moving in order to hear them.

Well, that's the question, is it an Epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot) usage of the skill? A skill trick? Part of a feat? A weak feat on its own? A high-level but not into Epics usage of the skill?

You can tell that there's an invisible creature around with a 20+ spot check in most cases.
A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) The Epic rules delineate things a bit more specifically. If you can tell there's an invisible creature there and then even figure out what square they're in, they can hear something as quiet as a heartbeat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot)

In the end, it's probably simpler to use use the same rules as an invisible creature and let the unseen creature roll a move silently vs. the listener's listen. If the listener beats them by 20 then they know exactly what square the unseen creature is in. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#listen)

If I had to simulate someone who was untrained in stealth but staying completely still I'd adhoc it somewhere in the DC 30-40 range, similar to Epic Spot's spotting the invisible, +10 for narrowing it down to a smaller area, +20 for pinpointing them. That or treat them as taking 20 on a move silently if I wanted to be quicker and dirtier.

[Jowgen]

Thank you for the input, everyone :smallsmile:


Hearing breathing and/or heartbeats at all seems a bit drastic, given that no amount of Move Silently will oppose that (since the target might not be moving at all). That seems like something that would fall under a listen-boosting feat like Hear the Unseen rather than just a big Listen modifier. The rules for Hear the Unseen sure seem to describe that sort of situation quite well, esp. since the feat doesn't require your opponent to be moving in order to hear them.

Keen Eared Scout is considerably more powerful than Hear the Unseen in this regard, going so far as being able to learn a creatures type and subtypes by how they sound. It's pretty crazy, and part of the reason I'm looking to flesh out the mundane-hearing side of things.



Races of Stone has, from checking some notes I have here, the ability to estimate distances underground using a DC 25 listen check around page 130 if you want to get the full details for yourself. Something about eavesdropping on people in public/crowds/festivals/riots is in Races of Destiny, I believe, around page 150. Which should also give you a convenient source of modifiers for whether you hear something like an arrow being shot before the body falls or the screaming starts.

Thank you very much, I've check up on that Races of Stone and Races of Destiny one and they're beautiful addition to my list of modifers, although the Races of Destiny one conflict a bit with the Rules compendium :smallsmile:

[sideswipe]

Hearing breathing and/or heartbeats at all seems a bit drastic,

ummm what? i understand the heartbeats and will not disagree.

but breathing really? have you never heard a person breath in a stressful circumstance? panting etc.
move silently includes breathing and coughing. and its a really easy thing to hear/cover up. so hearing breathing in a quiet environment would be achievable to all but the deaf. seriously sit in a room with no noise and listen to the other person and you will hear breathing.

it is the main way to find invisible and non moving opponents.

i would put it at DC 20 with up to 30 if its a reasonably normal area and 50 if its a noisy area and they are nearby.
a heartbeat would be closer to 80-100.

[Flickerdart]

I'd say that part of what makes someone good at Move Silently is their ability to control their breathing (and since this is a fantasy game, perhaps also even their heartbeat, with meditation and stuff). Many monsters also don't have either one of these things.

[Seharvepernfan]

Pathfinder has some good examples here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception).

[Calimehter]

ummm what? i understand the heartbeats and will not disagree.

but breathing really? have you never heard a person breath in a stressful circumstance? panting etc.
move silently includes breathing and coughing. and its a really easy thing to hear/cover up. so hearing breathing in a quiet environment would be achievable to all but the deaf. seriously sit in a room with no noise and listen to the other person and you will hear breathing.

As Flickerdart already alluded to, we are talking about a high-numbers fantasy setting here. The availability of superhuman hearing via training (class/skillranks/feats) means that superhuman silence (via similar training such as high ranks in Move Silently, etc.) is also available. Comparing the normal breathing of everyday people in real life to the breathing of D&D characters starts to get too close to "guy at the gym" fallacy for my tastes.

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Note to Coidzor: Yeah, I should have remembered that Epic rules would have some mention of achieving that sort of thing through skill ranks alone. Such oversight is what comes from playing lots of E6 and E9 campaigns, I suppose. :smallsigh: I had been browsing through CAdv for other reasons (and thus read the Hear the Unseen feat) mere minutes before reading this thread, so the whole "You need more than *just* skill investment, and here is precedent" idea was stuck in my head when I first replied to the OPs request for rules precedents.

[sideswipe]

As Flickerdart already alluded to, we are talking about a high-numbers fantasy setting here. The availability of superhuman hearing via training (class/skillranks/feats) means that superhuman silence (via similar training such as high ranks in Move Silently, etc.) is also available. Comparing the normal breathing of everyday people in real life to the breathing of D&D characters starts to get too close to "guy at the gym" fallacy for my tastes.

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Note to Coidzor: Yeah, I should have remembered that Epic rules would have some mention of achieving that sort of thing through skill ranks alone. Such oversight is what comes from playing lots of E6 and E9 campaigns, I suppose. :smallsigh: I had been browsing through CAdv for other reasons (and thus read the Hear the Unseen feat) mere minutes before reading this thread, so the whole "You need more than *just* skill investment, and here is precedent" idea was stuck in my head when I first replied to the OPs request for rules precedents.


umm my point was agreeing with yours? i don't see why you posted it.... i was merely saying that hearing breathing and hearing heartbeats are not one and the same just one if more difficult. and again, i was agreeing with the side flickerdart was on. you probably mis read my post.

[Jowgen]

Alright, I've done some book-diving and found a few interesting things that, I think, should get me most of the way to what I'm trying to do.

The "hard" DCs that I've found ("hard" meaning that they're not based on simulated move silent checks) are as follows:

–10 A battle
-5 Tripwire with bells ringing
-5 A waterfall
0 Invisible Creature in Combat
0 People talking
15 People whispering
15 Avalance 1d6 x 500 ft away
15+CR Hear trap going off, get to act in surprise round with trap
25 Deterimine distance to source of Echo within 10%
30 An owl gliding in for a kill

Looking at it, a battle is likely meant to describe things like blades clashing and people screaming; so that is a handy rough value to have. This makes a nice progression with loud-but-not-as-loud things like the waterfall and the clearly audible bells; followed by common indoor noise from conversation and regular non-battle combat. Then there is a bit of a gap (the DCs given for anything in between aren't "hard" DCs), and we get to the level of whispered sounds and the very distant rumble of an avalance. Then there begins a variable range for the tiniest of noises made by trap mechanisms, which vary with the quality of the created trap, which can get quite high like a move silently check, but is far easier to put into context.

The DC 25 for estimating echo distance is quite interesting, in that this represents a step into the fantasy-logic realm. Calculating the distances related to an echo requires knowledge of the actual speed of sound, which isn't really something your average adventurer (if anyone) is expected to know. As such, making this listen check likely represents a kind of hard-learned/intutive understanding of reverbration that I'm uncertain to be actually achieveable by real people.

Oddly enough though, it is the Owl example straight out of the PHB that is giving me the most to work with here. Owls only have a +17 to move silently, so if this were one of the "average character taking 10" examples, it should be DC 27, or "and owl gliding 30 ft away" or something to that effect. As such, it would appear that this DC is meant to actually reflect the level of noise that an actual gliding owl makes. That is an actual measureable real life level of noise that one could put in relation to other really silent things.

My google-fu on how much noise a gliding owl really makes is failing me at the moment, would anyone happen to have a number on hand? :smallconfused:

[PsiX]

My google-fu on how much noise a gliding owl really makes is failing me at the moment, would anyone happen to have a number on hand? :smallconfused:

Well, if I'm reading the graphs at the tops of pages 3 and for on this (http://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/INTERNOISE2014/papers/p26.pdf) PDF right (which might be an overassumption), it looks as if owls tend to average out to at or below around 20 decibels in flight.

These (http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm) two (http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-level-chart.html) sites both agree that that's around or under the volume of whispering, or the rustling of leaves. The first site also implies that it's quieter than the ambient noise in a 'quiet, rural area' (at 30 decibels).

Which implies to me that if an owl is gliding through an area with both trees and wind, they're likely to be no louder in flight than the ambient sounds of nature around them, if not noticeably (unnoticeably?) quieter.

[Crake]

The DC 25 for estimating echo distance is quite interesting, in that this represents a step into the fantasy-logic realm. Calculating the distances related to an echo requires knowledge of the actual speed of sound, which isn't really something your average adventurer (if anyone) is expected to know. As such, making this listen check likely represents a kind of hard-learned/intutive understanding of reverbration that I'm uncertain to be actually achieveable by real people.:

Actually, people have had a general idea of the speed of sound for a decent while, it's relatively easy to determine, stand x distance apart, make signal for sound, count how long sound takes to arrive. Now, being reasonable, they wouldn't be able to calculate it's speed to any accurate degree, but a general idea of the speed would be easily attainable, and when you take that into account, plus human error, that gets you the 10% deviation. Maybe put in some kind of knowledge check with a low DC, but above 10 (to make it require you be trained), say DC12 knowledge geography? That way it's not common knowledge, but people like rangers and the like will be able to determine it.

I would particularly like to know though, where you got the DC15+CR listen check for traps?

[Jowgen]

Well, if I'm reading the graphs at the tops of pages 3 and for on this PDF right (which might be an overassumption), it looks as if owls tend to average out to at or below around 20 decibels in flight.

These two sites both agree that that's around or under the volume of whispering, or the rustling of leaves. The first site also implies that it's quieter than the ambient noise in a 'quiet, rural area' (at 30 decibels).

Which implies to me that if an owl is gliding through an area with both trees and wind, they're likely to be no louder in flight than the ambient sounds of nature around them, if not noticeably (unnoticeably?) quieter.

Thank you for the links. There is a minor problem in that the noise charts are in dba (decibles adjusted for frequency in regards to human hearing) while the owl chart has decibles and frequency seperate, which I do not know how to combine into dba.


I would particularly like to know though, where you got the DC15+CR listen check for traps?

Page 121 Dungeonscape. The chart there gives different means to make traps deadlier, and one of them makes sprung traps "stealthy", which grants the trap a surprise round to do it's thing, unless people make the DC 15+CR spot or liten check.

[Crake]

Page 121 Dungeonscape. The chart there gives different means to make traps deadlier, and one of them makes sprung traps "stealthy", which grants the trap a surprise round to do it's thing, unless people make the DC 15+CR spot or liten check.

Huh, I've always had traps spring against foes flat footed like it was a surprise round anway, have I been doing it wrong?

[Jowgen]

Huh, I've always had traps spring against foes flat footed like it was a surprise round anway, have I been doing it wrong?

Well, Dungeonscape kinda did a re-vamp on trap rules, with the whole "encounter trap" concept, changes to trap CRs and DCs... it's all rather blurry to me tbh, but my guess would you be you ran them like DMG says but Dungeonscape disagrees? *shrug*

[Allanimal]

Thank you for the links. There is a minor problem in that the noise charts are in dba (decibles adjusted for frequency in regards to human hearing) while the owl chart has decibles and frequency seperate, which I do not know how to combine into dba.

There is a chart here (http://personal.cityu.edu.hk/~bsapplec/single.htm) that you can look up a frequency and find the number to add to the dBA value to get the dB value.
Specifically: Table 4 Sound Level Conversion Chart from Flat Response to A, B and C Weightings