Aboleth's Conundrum - Dms advice.

[Nibbens]

First, a brief clarifying of PFs Illusion disbelief rules.

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Okay, so let's say for example that you have a group of PCs traveling into an Aboleth's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/aboleth) lair. From what we know of the creature, they use illusions to devastating effects - in particular would be their lair, where they can upkeep the Illusory Walls permanently, Programmed image is permanent until triggered, and then it lasts for 16 minutes, and Mirage Arcana to quite literally terraform his lair exactly the way he wants it to look for 32 hours per day in a single casting, Veil can create any servant the aboleth has to look like multiple Cthulhus for all he cares for 16 hours per day and to top it all of he can do all of this at will.

So, that means that when your heroes enter an Aboleths Lair, everything they see is false and made to be exactly what the Aboleth wants them to see.

Now, here comes my problem - If you have four PCs (it only gets worse with five and six man parties) this means you have every surface interacted with a differing times by differing people with everyone making separate will saves. Character X doesn't believe illusion A but believes illusion B and C. Character Y doesn't believe Illusion B, but believes A and C. And so on and so forth.

This can get easily out of hand and the amount of dice rolls could potentially destroy your flow of game - not to mention keeping track of who is believeing and disbelieving what and the Bam! Combat happens - with more illusions...

So, yeah... I guess my question is how do DMs handle the barrage of illusions (such as utilized by a Aboleth) without letting it bog down the game to a crawl? Or, are there any DMs out there who've successfully ran an Aboleths Lair without making your PCs hate you (for disrupting gameplay - not necessarily making them miserable... because thats what illusions do).

[Strormer]

I've never tried, but what I would do is treat everything as real until a PC meaningfully tests it, at which point they would get a save, or until they enter combat where they would be dealing with effects more directly. Even if the party were to realize that almost everything is certainly an illusion, I'd just tell them that the layers upon layers of illusions mean they can't really trust their senses, and give a bonus to disbelief rolls.

[Segev]

There shouldn't be THAT many illusions that are separate effects in any given scene. Mirage Arcana is a single illusion over the whole area. So is Veil. If you want, you can make them have to save/detect again every time they change rooms, but for simplicity's sake, if the Veil is penetrated for one creature, it should be for all, at least by that PC's perceptions.

The number of illusory walls is, of course, numerous, and they're individual, but that's not so much of an issue. I don't think you have to disbelieve an illusory wall to successfully walk through it. Certainly not to be pushed through it.

Your players might hate you...but handle it with most of the rolls being done on your side of the screen, and you should be able to keep the flow going.

[atemu1234]

There shouldn't be THAT many illusions that are separate effects in any given scene. Mirage Arcana is a single illusion over the whole area. So is Veil. If you want, you can make them have to save/detect again every time they change rooms, but for simplicity's sake, if the Veil is penetrated for one creature, it should be for all, at least by that PC's perceptions.

The number of illusory walls is, of course, numerous, and they're individual, but that's not so much of an issue. I don't think you have to disbelieve an illusory wall to successfully walk through it. Certainly not to be pushed through it.

Your players might hate you...but handle it with most of the rolls being done on your side of the screen, and you should be able to keep the flow going.

Random Dice Generators are also useful.

[Coidzor]

First, a brief clarifying of PFs Illusion disbelief rules.

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Okay, so let's say for example that you have a group of PCs traveling into an Aboleth's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/aboleth) lair. From what we know of the creature, they use illusions to devastating effects - in particular would be their lair, where they can upkeep the Illusory Walls permanently, Programmed image is permanent until triggered, and then it lasts for 16 minutes, and Mirage Arcana to quite literally terraform his lair exactly the way he wants it to look for 32 hours per day in a single casting, Veil can create any servant the aboleth has to look like multiple Cthulhus for all he cares for 16 hours per day and to top it all of he can do all of this at will.

So, that means that when your heroes enter an Aboleths Lair, everything they see is false and made to be exactly what the Aboleth wants them to see.

Now, here comes my problem - If you have four PCs (it only gets worse with five and six man parties) this means you have every surface interacted with a differing times by differing people with everyone making separate will saves. Character X doesn't believe illusion A but believes illusion B and C. Character Y doesn't believe Illusion B, but believes A and C. And so on and so forth.

This can get easily out of hand and the amount of dice rolls could potentially destroy your flow of game - not to mention keeping track of who is believeing and disbelieving what and the Bam! Combat happens - with more illusions...

So, yeah... I guess my question is how do DMs handle the barrage of illusions (such as utilized by a Aboleth) without letting it bog down the game to a crawl? Or, are there any DMs out there who've successfully ran an Aboleths Lair without making your PCs hate you (for disrupting gameplay - not necessarily making them miserable... because thats what illusions do).

A smart illusionist, and an Aboleth had better be smart, well, then again, the PCs are supposed to be able to conceivably win, sorr. Lost my train of thought. Where was I? Oh, yes, a smart illusionist uses his illusion economically, so that creatures are not getting constant will saves to disbelieve their illusions and know that there's a metric ****ton of illusions around to test thoroughly.

It's also, as you've noticed, a lot easier on DMs.

[Grek]

Time Pressure. If the PCs don't have time to stop and interact with every little thing, they won't. They'll just guess and try not to walk into walls. You can accomplish this by having reinforcements on their way, having the PCs water breathing source be time limited, or by having the Aboleth be doing something that needs prompt thwarting.

[Duke of URRL]

The enemy illusionist can be lots of fun.

With lots of illusions, I find it best to keep a little card for each character, and note each illusion for that character.

And this is the fun part: Mirage Arcana is a glamor, not a figment or phantasm. So, going by the book, if a character makes their save they know what they see/feel/smell/hear is false....but they don't see through it. So they might see a floor covered in sharp spikes, but know it is false....but they can't see the real floor covered in acid.