D&D 3.5 core only druid build.

[BrotherSilence]

i need help making a very powerful druid. I've heard druids are one of the most powerful classes in the game especially when built well. the problem is i have no experience with them. our DM uses the very basic books ( MM,DMG ,PHB ) we do not use anything beyond that ( ex: PHB 2 or any SRD) and i myself cannot take any Monster Feats, but of course my companion would be able to. this druid would be 8th lvl and have the following stats ( arranged as desired) 20,18,16,16,16,10. so yeah we are a very high powered campaign because we typically fight Monsters that would be classified challenging and high for a standard party. so i would love help on building a powerful druid that will prove to be an asset to the party. along with feat suggestions,stat placing, and all the standard stuff like that i would also greatly appreciate spell suggestions and general tips/tricks for playing them.

Thank you,

[Zaq]

Core-only, eh? Well, the first three feats you want are going to be Spell Focus: Conjuration (prereq), Augment Summoning (Druids make very good summoners), and Natural Spell (one of the very best feats for any Druid). After that, there are no must-have feats—metamagic is okay, but not great without reducers (which don't really exist in Core-only), and nothing else stands out as must-have. Maybe Improved Initiative, since going first never hurts, and maybe some crafting feats, if you want to go down that road (though by no means is that going to be the only way to be useful, so don't feel bad if you feel like crafting is too much work).

For your stats, WIS should always be your highest stat—you're a full caster, after all, so you want your casting stat to be as high as you can make it. Your STR and DEX aren't critically important, since you replace those when you Wild Shape, but it's good to have a high CON, since that doesn't change when you WS. If you prefer to WS after combat starts (rather than walking around in tiger form—or whatever form—all day), DEX will be useful for initiative, but it's still not critical. Beyond WIS and CON, just do whatever you like—INT is always nice for skill points, CHA is useful for a couple class skills and for Wild Empathy, but really, nothing is going to be more important than WIS and CON.

With some good feats and some good stats, everything else relies on your chosen spells and chosen Wild Shape forms, really. And since you can choose those every day, there's not one universal correct answer for what's going to work.

[Troacctid]

I've heard druids are one of the most powerful classes in the game especially when built well.

I don't know about "especially when built well"; the vast majority of a Druid's power comes from the class features that they just get by default. The build itself actually matters very little in comparison. You could be a Druid 20 with Toughness, Toughness, Natural Spell, Toughness, Toughness, Toughness, and Toughness as your feats, and you'd still kick more ass than just about any of the other classes in the Player's Handbook.

How you play a Druid is going to be much more important than how you build it. What spells you pick, how you use them, when and how you wildshape, and so on.

The only really important thing is to take Natural Spell.

[Blackhawk748]

Well the 20 goes into Wisdom, and everything else is secondary, id say stick the 18 in Int for skills as you'll be a Bear (or some other animal) most of the time. Really the only feat a Druid will ever need is Natural Spell, as it lets you cast as an animal, other than that its all about spell selection. Good spells are: Entangle, Summon Natures Ally line, Produce Flame (for when your a tiger and need flaming claws), Barksksin is ok, Heat Metal if your fighting idiots in metal armor, Magic Fang, etc etc. Honestly Druids excel at BFC and Buffing, generally themselves or their companion.

Edit: Double Ninja'd

[eggynack]

How you play a Druid is going to be much more important than how you build it. What spells you pick, how you use them, when and how you wildshape, and so on.
Pretty much this. Other unmentioned feats are extend spell, craft wondrous items, and improved initiative, but as was noted, it's all strictly secondary. On that note, I'll list some of the daily build stuff. For the animal companion, either brown bear or maybe giant crocodile are solid, and for wild shape forms, you're probably going to want to mostly be a dire bat, especially if you're focused a bit more on magic, but polar bear is a reasonable combat form.

The big deal, however, is spells. For fourths, you'll probably want dispel magic, freedom of movement, and maybe spike stones. Good summons are unicorn, giant crocodile, and brown bear. For thirds, you have a lot of great options including sleet storm, stone shape, greater magic fang, call lightning, plant growth, and even wind wall, with lion as the main summons. Seconds are pretty limited, and include fog cloud, gust of wind, summon swarm, and maybe barkskin, with hippogriff as the main summons. Firsts are mostly entangle, with obscuring mist and faerie fire as solid support, and wolf as a good summons. Finally, for zeroth's, you'll want a mix of detect magic, cure minor wounds, and create water.

[madtinker]

I'm curious eggynack; besides getting water from create water, why do you recommend having this particular spell prepared?

[eggynack]

I'm curious eggynack; besides getting water from create water, why do you recommend having this particular spell prepared?
Lotsa arbitrary utility. You can put out fires, or make a floor slippery, or reveal invisible foes, or make a pool for scrying, hell, even prevent dehydration. It's all the arbitrary utility that can be provided by a bunch of water, which is significantly greater than the arbitrary utility that can be provided by just about any other spell on the druid list of 0th's. Moreover, it provides arbitrary utility that you just don't tend to get from other druid 0th's.

[madtinker]

Lotsa arbitrary utility. You can put out fires, or make a floor slippery, or reveal invisible foes, or make a pool for scrying, hell, even prevent dehydration. It's all the arbitrary utility that can be provided by a bunch of water, which is significantly greater than the arbitrary utility that can be provided by just about any other spell on the druid list of 0th's. Moreover, it provides arbitrary utility that you just don't tend to get from other druid 0th's.

...Those are all great ideas. Thanks!

[Telonius]

Do not underestimate Create Water.

Have you ever dumped an aquarium onto a textbook?

Imagine the look on the wizard's face when it happens to his spellbook. Or his scrolls.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Do not underestimate Create Water.

Have you ever dumped an aquarium onto a textbook?

Imagine the look on the wizard's face when it happens to his spellbook. Or his scrolls.

Are we getting into a Cantrip/Orison war? Please tell me we're getting into a Cantrip/Orison war.

I counter your Create Water with my Prestigitation to safely press the water from the pages and restore the book to usable condition, foul enemy apprentice!

[eggynack]

Are we getting into a Cantrip/Orison war? Please tell me we're getting into a Cantrip/Orison war.

I counter your Create Water with my Prestigitation to safely press the water from the pages and restore the book to usable condition, foul enemy apprentice!
Cure minor wounds is pretty sweet, what with the relatively free stabilization thing, but beyond that I have no doubt that cantrips are better. There's just so much ridiculous utility there, particularly with prestidigitation, but also with some other spells of note. Create water isn't on the same level as prestidigitation, but I think it's the option that comes closest to approximating that kinda flexibility. The difference between the two spells demonstrates what I think is the divide between arcane and divine magic, or particularly between druids and wizards.

Druids are ultimately firmly rooted in the practical. Druids boost their AC, and they become big, and they get more attacks, and they cart around things that do the same. When they want to get somewhere far away, they usually get there by going really fast. In other words, they exist on the same general axis as more mundane classes, except they approach it in a much better way, and can do a massive number of other things. This is as create water, which has tons of utility, but not much you couldn't equally access by carting around a bucket of water everywhere you go, no matter how inefficient that would be.

By contrast, wizards tend to transcend the things done by mundane classes. They don't care about AC, and instead persist greater mirror image. They don't care about size, and instead kill their opponents with a ridiculous save or die. They don't care about distance, but instead just teleport. Druids have approximations of all of those things, but on some fundamental level, druid optimization still cares about those practicalities. By the same token, wizards have prestidigitation, which does stuff that's just about impossible without magic. Sure, some of it is somewhat practical, but underlying that is the other. And, to some extent, transcending is going to sometimes be intrinsically more powerful than doing the same thing better, which is what makes prestidigitation more powerful.

[Deophaun]

I don't know about "especially when built well"; the vast majority of a Druid's power comes from the class features that they just get by default. The build itself actually matters very little in comparison. You could be a Druid 20 with Toughness, Toughness, Natural Spell, Toughness, Toughness, Toughness, and Toughness as your feats, and you'd still kick more ass than just about any of the other classes in the Player's Handbook.
Conversely, I've seen hyper-optimized Planar Shepherds fall flat on their face because the player had absolutely no idea what they were doing. Druid is one of those classes where the player outweighs absolutely everything else.

Lotsa arbitrary utility. You can put out fires, or make a floor slippery, or reveal invisible foes, or make a pool for scrying...
Scrying requires a natural pool of water. If you create it, by definition it can't be natural.

[deuxhero]

But you're a druid!

[Blackhawk748]

Have your animal companion dig a hole and let the water flow into the hole by itself, natural!

[Hiro Quester]

Forest Gnome druid gets prestidigitation as a 1/day SLA, and create water as 0level spell. Best of both. Plus forest animal language.

As far as a core game goes, druid is about as powerful as you can get, with many ways to change up your character. You can change animal companion, prepare any druid spell, wildshape differently, etc. Great versatility and options.

But that means, as has been pointed out, the player using those options well makes a big difference.

I'd second the recommendation for augment summoning. The instant boost to your summons is very worth it. I'm playing a druid in a core game right now, antagonized over other options before deciding this was best.

Higher level feats, it would be nice to be able to take multiattack. But no monster feat, eh? Companion spellbond is great if you share buffs with AC. But I think thats PHB2.

Extend spell is a solid option, then, for buff spells (on you and AC, or on party tank). At higher levels quicken spell can be useful for buffs, too.

[eggynack]

Scrying requires a natural pool of water. If you create it, by definition it can't be natural.
Really depends on how you define natural. If the hole is already there, and you drop a create water into it, then there's really not much to separate it from any other pool of water, which is a thing supported by the fact that the spell produces a thing alike to rainwater. This is especially true because, as deuxhero noted, druidic magic is fundamentally rooted in the natural.

[elvengunner69]

You have many, many options for animal companion but Dire Wolf isn't a bad choice. Decent attack (+10 or 11 I think) and can trip. Always fun to knock bad guys on their arse. Depending on your party I tend to try and play more like a controller because you steal some thunder from the melee characters once you start turning into things like Dire Lions (Pounce, Charge, with some nice buffs can be pretty sweet). Summoning an animal army in combat can be a lot of fun though as well as casting some decent damage spells. And if your party is missing something the Druid can pretty much step in take that role.

[Doctor Awkward]

i need help making a very powerful druid. I've heard druids are one of the most powerful classes in the game especially when built well.

Okey pokey.

Stuck in core, human is certainly the most practical choice for race.
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 16.
Druid 20 progression.
Level 1 feat: Spell Focus (conjuration) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellFocus), Human Bonus: Augment Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#augmentSummoning)
Level 3: Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell)
Level 6: Natural Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell)
Level 9: Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) (Bite or claw, depends on your preferred wild shapes)
Level 12: Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell)
Level 15: Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack)
Level 18: *Doesn't matter, pick whatever you want.*

Human + 3 Int mod + 4 skills per level = 8 skills at max ranks
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Diplomacy, and Knowledge (nature) are the only ones worth keeping maxed out.
You need to be able to hit DC 20 Handle Animal checks to make the most of your animal companion. Probably 10 or so ranks in there if your DM lets you Take 10, or more if not.
Other than that I would take Balance cross-class until you get 5 ranks in it (10 skill points total), so that you are not flat-footed when balancing. With that high an Intelligence score, I'd try to get at least one or two more points in each other knowledge skill. Any leftover skill points throw into Use Magic Device.


the problem is i have no experience with them.

Oh...

Oh.

Well that's different. Simply having an effective character never guarantees you success. You also need to know how to use it.
There are three things that make up the trifecta of power that is Druid.

The first one is spells. The druid has a massive of spells that provide excellent utility, potent offense, and truly spectacular effects at higher levels. Earthquake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) can level entire cities, Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) can generate tornadoes and hurricanes. The fact that they can spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally makes them potent summoners. You need to familiarize yourself with the druid spell list to know what makes a spell good, and when to cast it.

The second of the trifecta is Animal Companion. In core a riding dog or wolf is the best choice for level 1 in terms of combat ability. As you gain levels it's generally best to swap them out for something else on the list, as the benefits gained by stronger animals are better than what the druid provides lower level ones. Now the advantage of sticking with the same animal is, of course, you get to select its feats, but at level 7 a tiger is likely going to be far more effective than your wolf will no matter how many extra hit dice and feats you give it.

The third of the trifecta is Wild Shape. This ability is so broken that entire guides have been written around it. It requires you to familiarize yourself with the Monster Manual so you can learn what provides the best bonuses for what you want to do. Pick an eagle to fly and keep out of reach of enemies, pick a crocodile or a leopard to fight alongside your melee allies. Turn into a dog to wander around town and spy on your enemies.

I highly recommend doing internet searches for "Druid Handbook" to try and learn exactly why druids are the most powerful core class in D&D.


our DM uses the very basic books ( MM,DMG ,PHB ) we do not use anything beyond that ( ex: PHB 2 or any SRD).
Well that's silly.

The SRD is core. It is exactly what is found in the PHB, DMG, and MM other than copyrighted material.

Yes, it also has material from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (which really should be core anyway. It's far more balanced than the PHB) and Unearthed Arcana. But those things are very obviously and clearly marked under the headings of "Psionics" and "Variants."


and i myself cannot take any Monster Feats
I wouldn't even mention this if it wasn't something that seriously grinds my gears. I see this sort of nonsensical knee-jerk house-ruling applied to druids all the time. Like this is what makes druids broken. The fact that they can make themselves more like one of those pathetic grunts that wades into melee combat, risks death every single encounter, and that your party will slaughter dozens of over the course of your careers.
I mean, yeah, it will make a druid less interesting because he has fewer options he'll want to use. But being slightly weaker in melee combat isn't going to change the fact that a druid adventuring with a fighter, a ranger, and a rogue is more powerful than the entire rest of the party combined.

Whatever.

Take the build above, swap your Strength and Dexterity scores, and take Power Attack instead of Improved Natural Attack, and Maximize Spell instead of Multiattack. Then cast Stoneskin on yourself, Wild Shape into a hummingbird and spend an entire encounter raining Maximized Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) down on top of your enemies' heads from 200 feet in the air, and then ask your DM if he still thinks Improved Natural Attack (claw) is overpowered.


In all seriousness, my best advice is to read the handbooks, and beyond that, relax.
The more you play druids the more experience you will get in using them. Picked bad spells today? No biggie, throw for Summon Nature's Ally and pick different ones tomorrow. If you suck at melee, Wild Shape into something that doesn't. The only required feat you have is Natural Spell at level 6. No other feat really matters, and beyond that it's nigh-on impossible to make a druid unplayable.

[eggynack]

Take the build above, swap your Strength and Dexterity scores, and take Power Attack instead of Improved Natural Attack.
I would stay away from power attack. You don't get double BAB spent, which is the main thing that makes the feat advantageous. To demonstrate, let's look at an 8th level druid wild shape'd into a polar bear. For such a character, looking at a single claw, the damage against an AC of 20 would only increase by .03, and anything above that wouldn't feature any increase at all. Dropping down to, say, 13, would only get a boost of 2.26, which is nice but nothing special. Meanwhile, assuming the same 13 AC and optimal -4 power attack assignment, the bite attack ends up only dealing an extra .2 damage. So, even at the best sorts of ranges, and with optimal assignment which can in no way be assumed, you're still maxing out at something like weapon specialization, or likely significantly below it, which is by no means a good feat. Instead, maybe improved initiative. That feat is sweet business.

[Doctor Awkward]

I thought bite attacks did give double Power Attack returns?

Eh, maybe they don't and I'm remembering it wrong. Oh well.
Improved Initiative is always good. Do that instead.

[nyjastul69]

Okey pokey.

Stuck in core, human is certainly the most practical choice for race.
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 16.
Druid 20 progression.
Level 1 feat: Spell Focus (conjuration) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellFocus), Human Bonus: Augment Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#augmentSummoning)
Level 3: Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell)
Level 6: Natural Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell)
Level 9: Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) (Bite or claw, depends on your preferred wild shapes)
Level 12: Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell)
Level 15: Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack)
Level 18: *Doesn't matter, pick whatever you want.*

Human + 3 Int mod + 4 skills per level = 8 skills at max ranks
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Diplomacy, and Knowledge (nature) are the only ones worth keeping maxed out.
You need to be able to hit DC 20 Handle Animal checks to make the most of your animal companion. Probably 10 or so ranks in there if your DM lets you Take 10, or more if not.
Other than that I would take Balance cross-class until you get 5 ranks in it (10 skill points total), so that you are not flat-footed when balancing. With that high an Intelligence score, I'd try to get at least one or two more points in each other knowledge skill. Any leftover skill points throw into Use Magic Device.



Oh...

Oh.

Well that's different. Simply having an effective character never guarantees you success. You also need to know how to use it.
There are three things that make up the trifecta of power that is Druid.

The first one is spells. The druid has a massive of spells that provide excellent utility, potent offense, and truly spectacular effects at higher levels. Earthquake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) can level entire cities, Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) can generate tornadoes and hurricanes. The fact that they can spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally makes them potent summoners. You need to familiarize yourself with the druid spell list to know what makes a spell good, and when to cast it.

The second of the trifecta is Animal Companion. In core a riding dog or wolf is the best choice for level 1 in terms of combat ability. As you gain levels it's generally best to swap them out for something else on the list, as the benefits gained by stronger animals are better than what the druid provides lower level ones. Now the advantage of sticking with the same animal is, of course, you get to select its feats, but at level 7 a tiger is likely going to be far more effective than your wolf will no matter how many extra hit dice and feats you give it.

The third of the trifecta is Wild Shape. This ability is so broken that entire guides have been written around it. It requires you to familiarize yourself with the Monster Manual so you can learn what provides the best bonuses for what you want to do. Pick an eagle to fly and keep out of reach of enemies, pick a crocodile or a leopard to fight alongside your melee allies. Turn into a dog to wander around town and spy on your enemies.

I highly recommend doing internet searches for "Druid Handbook" to try and learn exactly why druids are the most powerful core class in D&D.


Well that's silly.

The SRD is core. It is exactly what is found in the PHB, DMG, and MM other than copyrighted material.

Yes, it also has material from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (which really should be core anyway. It's far more balanced than the PHB) and Unearthed Arcana. But those things are very obviously and clearly marked under the headings of "Psionics" and "Variants."


I wouldn't even mention this if it wasn't something that seriously grinds my gears. I see this sort of nonsensical knee-jerk house-ruling applied to druids all the time. Like this is what makes druids broken. The fact that they can make themselves more like one of those pathetic grunts that wades into melee combat, risks death every single encounter, and that your party will slaughter dozens of over the course of your careers.
I mean, yeah, it will make a druid less interesting because he has fewer options he'll want to use. But being slightly weaker in melee combat isn't going to change the fact that a druid adventuring with a fighter, a ranger, and a rogue is more powerful than the entire rest of the party combined.

Whatever.

Take the build above, swap your Strength and Dexterity scores, and take Power Attack instead of Improved Natural Attack, and Maximize Spell instead of Multiattack. Then cast Stoneskin on yourself, Wild Shape into a hummingbird and spend an entire encounter raining Maximized Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) down on top of your enemies' heads from 200 feet in the air, and then ask your DM if he still thinks Improved Natural Attack (claw) is overpowered.


In all seriousness, my best advice is to read the handbooks, and beyond that, relax.
The more you play druids the more experience you will get in using them. Picked bad spells today? No biggie, throw for Summon Nature's Ally and pick different ones tomorrow. If you suck at melee, Wild Shape into something that doesn't. The only required feat you have is Natural Spell at level 6. No other feat really matters, and beyond that it's nigh-on impossible to make a druid unplayable.

The bolded part of your quote is not correct. The core rules are the PH, DMG and MM. These books include things that are not in the SRD. The SRD includes things that are not in those books. The SRD is not core.

[eggynack]

I thought bite attacks did give double Power Attack returns?

Eh, maybe they don't and I'm remembering it wrong. Oh well.
Well, if they do, then I don't know what the source is. Would definitely make the feat a bit more viable, though my suspicion is that it wouldn't be massively so, because I don't think bites tend to make up the bulk of weapon damage on most good combat forms. The big gain in value would likely be as an animal companion feat, because then riding dog is a good option.

[Seharvepernfan]

If the natural weapon in question gets str x1.5 damage, then it should get double the PA bonus.

[Flickerdart]

If the natural weapon in question gets str x1.5 damage, then it should get double the PA bonus.
What makes you say that?

[Seharvepernfan]

What makes you say that?

It just makes sense. If you get double the power attack bonus when using a weapon in which you get x1.5 str to damage, then it should be the same with a natural weapon. I wouldn't say it's unbalanced, because typically a monster only gets x1.5 to damage if that attack is it's only weapon, right?

[Doctor Awkward]

If the natural weapon in question gets str x1.5 damage, then it should get double the PA bonus.

This might be what I was thinking, but there is no rule that says that.

It is an analogous thought, given that Two-Handed Weapons give you 1.5 Str bonus to damage, like bite does. But the specific wording on Power Attack only applies to Two-Handed Weapons, and there's nothing in the description of natural attacks that says otherwise.


The bolded part of your quote is not correct. The core rules are the PH, DMG and MM. These books include things that are not in the SRD. The SRD includes things that are not in those books. The SRD is not core.

*facepalm*

I don't know which is harder for me to believe: that you quoted my entire post and bolded that line to point this out instead of just quoting that line, or the fact that you somehow missed the very next line directly below what you wrapped bold tags around where I said exactly what you said.

It's irrelevant in either case, since the reason I made that statement was to point out that not considering the SRD as a valid reference for core only games because it contains some easily distinguishable non-core material is fallacious.

[Flickerdart]

If you get double the power attack bonus when using a weapon in which you get x1.5 str to damage
That's not what the rule is. You get double PA when you attack with either a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. The 1.5 STR to damage rule is separate and unrelated (even if the trigger condition is the same).

[eggynack]

It's irrelevant in either case, since the reason I made that statement was to point out that not considering the SRD as a valid reference for core only games because it contains some easily distinguishable non-core material is fallacious.
The OP wasn't likely saying that they do that. It is more likely that they're merely excluding things that are outside of core and within the SRD. This is backed up by the fact that the OP said that they're not using anything beyond that, rather than giving a different reason based on the notion of the SRD as an invalid reference material. In any case, in the future, you may want to go with, "The SRD contains core," instead of "The SRD is core." The former statement is accurate, or at least mostly accurate (the SRD is missing some stuff from core, and has at least one inaccuracy that I can recall, so it can't be said to perfectly contain core), while the latter statement is technically inaccurate.

[Seharvepernfan]

That's not what the rule is.

The logic is the same, and it is an entirely reasonable interpretation.

[nyjastul69]

This might be what I was thinking, but there is no rule that says that.

It is an analogous thought, given that Two-Handed Weapons give you 1.5 Str bonus to damage, like bite does. But the specific wording on Power Attack only applies to Two-Handed Weapons, and there's nothing in the description of natural attacks that says otherwise.



*facepalm*

I don't know which is harder for me to believe: that you quoted my entire post and bolded that line to point this out instead of just quoting that line, or the fact that you somehow missed the very next line directly below what you wrapped bold tags around where I said exactly what you said.

It's irrelevant in either case, since the reason I made that statement was to point out that not considering the SRD as a valid reference for core only games because it contains some easily distinguishable non-core material is fallacious.

It was the easiest way to do it from my phone. I read what came after the part I bolded. That bit wasn't really relevant. The SRD without epic, psionic, divine and the variants still isn't core. The 'core rules' as presented in the SRD are not the core rules.

The SRD does not contain anything that WotC deemed as IP, character advancement rules, WBL, etc. It was these elements that I was referring to.

[eggynack]

The logic is the same, and it is an entirely reasonable interpretation.
Not really, especially as applies to the latter part where it's somehow a valid reading. Power attack triggers on a specific basis, and 1.5x damage is very much not that basis. You're really just employing a logical fallacy here. In particular, while you can say that if something is a two handed weapon, then it deals 1.5x damage, that in no way implies that if something deals 1.5x damage then it is a two handed weapon. Similarly, it does not imply that the weapon should be treated as a two handed weapon for other unstated purposes. If you can find something that explicitly states that power attack and natural attacks have some favorable combinations, then that's great, but in the absence of such a citation, there's nothing reasonable about this interpretation.

[Eloel]

It was the easiest way to do it from my phone. I read what came after the part I bolded. That bit wasn't really relevant. The SRD without epic, psionic, divine and the variants still isn't core. The 'core rules' as presented in the SRD are not the core rules.


The core rules as presented in the SRD, actually, ARE the core rules. They're just not all of it.

[Troacctid]

The logic is the same, and it is an entirely reasonable interpretation.

Well, it's a pretty reasonable interpretation if you're playing Pathfinder, at least. It doesn't work in 3.5.

[nyjastul69]

The core rules as presented in the SRD, actually, ARE the core rules. They're just not all of it.

So we are in agreement. The SRD is not the core rules.

[Eloel]

So we are in agreement. The SRD is not the core rules.

The SRD is the core rules.
The SRD is not all of the core rules.

[nyjastul69]

The SRD is the core rules.
The SRD is not all of the core rules.

The SRD is the amount of core rules other companies are allowed to use when creating a d20 product. The core rules are the PH, DMG and MM. You are simply incorrect.

Edit: I'd rather not derail this thread any further. Any future discussion should probably be it's own thread or discussed through PM.

[Eloel]

The SRD is the amount of core rules other companies are allowed to use when creating a d20 product. The core rules are the PH, DMG and MM. You are simply incorrect.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subset)should be a good read for you.

[Doctor Awkward]

The word 'irrelevant' suddenly seems remarkably insufficient.

[eggynack]

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subset)should be a good read for you.
Not really. Neither the SRD nor the core books is a subset of the other.


The word 'irrelevant' suddenly seems remarkably insufficient.
Well, yeah. Irrelevant tends to be the word of the day when you rile up an arbitrary semantic fight. But, y'know, if the OP wants more druid stuff, this thread is here for him to ask questions in. We haven't really covered all the theoretically possible druid ground, even as applies to core, but doing that without help seeker guidance would take a prohibitively long amount of time. Druids are complicated.

[Eloel]

Not really. Neither the SRD nor the core books is a subset of the other.



We're specifically talking about the "core rules" part of SRD (it is clearly distinguished here (www.d20srd.org)if you'd like)

[Deophaun]

We're specifically talking about the "core rules" part of SRD (it is clearly distinguished here (www.d20srd.org)if you'd like)
So... a subset of the SRD is a subset of the core rules, then?

That's not a very useful statement.

And actually, you're still wrong, as d20srd is the SRD with errata incorporated. WOTC never designated the errata documents as part of the SRD.

[Auron3991]

If your DM let's you pull it, leadership with squirrels

On a more realistic note, natural spell is really the only thing you need to be above average in most games. I would highly suggest getting augmented summoning simply so your spontaneous casts are always useful. Improved Initiative is another one I'd recommend if only so monsters don't get two moves in a row if they get the drop on you.

As far as tactics go, wild shape is your friend here. Any stationary enemy is great to hit with Call Lightning from underground as a badger. Or you could dive bomb targets as a peregrine falcon with that spell that turns rocks into magical weapons. The sky's the limit here (quite literally if you use the later).

[Hiro Quester]

The SRD is the amount of core rules other companies are allowed to use when creating a d20 product. The core rules are the PH, DMG and MM. You are simply incorrect.

Edit: I'd rather not derail this thread any further. Any future discussion should probably be it's own thread or discussed through PM.

This. Can we please take the SRD/core discussion elsewhere We all know what OP meant, and understand the differences between core and SRD; the only thing left in that discussion is ego (and the meaning of "is" in the phrase "SRD is Core").

Can we get back to druid advice?

[nyjastul69]

I apologize for my part in derailing the thread, and by 'my part,' I mean starting it. On to to Druid stuff.

I think Augment Summoning is a great feat for Druids. I think the prerequisite is almost useless. I'm currently playing a Druid and didn't think the 2 feat cost was worth the 1 feat gain. I chose Companion Spellbond as one of my feats. Sharing spells at 30', instead of 5', is a good choice IMO. I've used the feat in every session(4) I've played thus far. I'll agree with most that Natural Spell at 6th level is all a Druid really wants/needs. There really aren't any other 'must have' Druid feats.

[Hiro Quester]

Companion Spellbond is a great feat. But I f you are using your animal companion as a mount (which you might well do at low levels, with riding dog AC), it's not that needed. You don't have many good buff spells at lower levels, and your AC won't often be far. I'm planning on taking it at 9th.

But it's in PH2, so not allowed for OP.

Augment summoning is pretty good. The druid I'm playing is now 6th level, and summoning a lot. The boost to Str and Con makes them stronger and tougher, which is what you want them for most of the time. And SF conjuration does augment some other conjurationdoes.

If you're interested the discussion we had about whether augment summoning is worth the two feats is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379786-Core-druid-augment-summoning-worth-two-feats) .

About your race:
Human is a good choice for a druid. But Druids are not as feat-starved as other builds, and alternative races will give you other useful things aside from the bonus feat.

For instance, I'm playing a forest gnome Druid. +2 to CON, -2 to strength (with your rolls you could have 20 in Con and Wis!). Plus racial bonuses to hide, listen, etc. a language that enables communication with forest animals, and 1/day SLA
prestidigitation, ghost sound, and dancing lights. Plus gnome flavor.

And the riding dog is perfect size for mount. Train it to trip.

[nyjastul69]

Companion Spellbond is a great feat. But I f you are using your animal companion as a mount (which you might well do at low levels, with riding dog AC), it's not that needed. You don't have many good buff spells at lower levels, and your AC won't often be far. I'm planning on taking it at 9th.

But it's in PH2, so not allowed for OP.

Augment summoning is pretty good. The druid I'm playing is now 6th level, and summoning a lot. The boost to Str and Con makes them stronger and tougher, which is what you want them for most of the time. And SF conjuration does augment some other conjurationdoes.

If you're interested the discussion we had about whether augment summoning is worth the two feats is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379786-Core-druid-augment-summoning-worth-two-feats) .

About your race:
Human is a good choice for a druid. But Druids are not as feat-starved as other builds, and alternative races will give you other useful things aside from the bonus feat.

For instance, I'm playing a forest gnome Druid. +2 to CON, -2 to strength (with your rolls you could have 20 in Con and Wis!). Plus racial bonuses to hide, listen, etc. a language that enables communication with forest animals, and 1/day SLA
prestidigitation, ghost sound, and dancing lights. Plus gnome flavor.

And the riding dog is perfect size for mount. Train it to trip.

Right, the whole core limitation thing. :/ Kinda sad that I actually missed that. Ooops!

Edit: I read the linked thread the first time around. I also just reread it. It goes into the value of Greenbound Summoning and whatnot, but it never addresses the uselessness of SF on a Druid. Exactly what Druid spells that are Conjuration and have a save DC? Between the PH and SC I couldn't find even a handful. Is there a list of Druid spells that actually benefit from SF(Conjuration)?

[eggynack]

Right, the whole core limitation thing. :/ Kinda sad that I actually missed that. Ooops!

Edit: I read the linked thread the first time around. I also just reread it. It goes into the value of Greenbound Summoning and whatnot, but it never addresses the uselessness of SF on a Druid. Exactly what Druid spells that are Conjuration and have a save DC? Between the PH and SC I couldn't find even a handful. Is there a list of Druid spells that actually benefit from SF(Conjuration)?
It's a short list, but it doesn't really matter all that much. Spell focus (conjuration) is pretty much just your standard feat tax. Augment summoning is a feat that's very good when you're book limited, especially because pretty much all of the good summoning feats are setting specific, but when you step outside of such a game, it becomes too expensive and low impact to be seriously worth your time. Even in your companion spellbond having game, augment summoning is still possibly worth it, because if it's basically just that feat and core then druids have enough feats to pick up both augment summoning and companion spellbond.

Really though, when you get into that broader context, the double feating is still really relevant, but it might not even be necessary to disregard the feat. I mean, now we're talking about a world of greenbound summoning, aberration wild shape, initiate feats (I like gatekeeper), the animal companion feats (including spellbond, but also including natural bond and exalted companion), and a solid pile of others. Augment is crazy outclassed, especially by those first two on the list.

You see, augment summoning is quite good for a feat, or even two feats. Even with all books, we're still comparing that +4/+4 to, I dunno, knock-down, or craven, or knowledge devotion. It doesn't really compare all that unfavorably to those feats, even though they're high powered, because we're still hanging out in this strictly numerical range, and not a broken numerical range either. What augment summoning is not quite good for, however, is a druid feat. Druid feats are ridiculous. A single one of them can do things that other classes would just start ditching feats left and right for. Hell, how much would a fighter give for just the crazy dimension door power of exalted wild shape? Probably a lot. It's a whole other scale, and augment summoning doesn't compete all that well.

Edit: I feel like I've rather missed the core question here, at least directly. The reason why the double feating doesn't matter is quite simple. In a core only game, it doesn't matter, because the feat is too good to not take even with a two feat cost. In an all books game, it doesn't matter, because the feat is too bad to take even with a one feat cost. In an in between game, it starts to matter, but on some level the cost is just a thing implicit to discussion. You don't really have to mention the feat tax every time the feat comes up, because it's right there. As a bonus side note, another barrier to augment summoning is the fact that you can get it pretty easily on a half-orc or shifter without actually taking the feat, through substitution levels and moonspeaker levels respectively.

[Blackhawk748]

Hilariously the OP could go the Mounted Combat route and chuck spells from atop their bear, and if things get bad they always have the option of being a bear.

[137beth]

The logic is the same, and it is an entirely reasonable interpretation.

It might be RAI, but it definitely isn't RAW.

Anyways, for a core only druid, I'd go with the following feats:
1. SF: Conjuration
3. Augment Summoning
6. Natural Spell
9. If someone else in your party has taken CWI, take Extend Spell. Otherwise, take CWI
12. Extend Spell (if you hadn't already taken it), otherwise Quicken Spell or another magic item creation feat.

For magic item creation feats after CWI, I usually go with either rings or Craft Rod for the metamagic rods. A lot of forumites will disagree with me on that one, though.
And, as others have said, Natural Spell is the only build choice that really matters for a druid.

[Flickerdart]

It might be RAI, but it definitely isn't RAW.
There's no evidence to suggest that the people writing the rules intended it to work this way, so it's not even RAI.

[vlad801]

While it’s a little late, here is my druid build.

Challenges:
I am designing this character to be taken from 1st level through to Epic, I specify this because a character created at higher levels would have a different feat selection that what I outlining. Also, if you have read over the Druid spell list, you would have noticed something, apart from Flamestrike at 4th level and Firestorm at 7th, there aren’t any “Boom, here I am” spells. A 13th level Druid could unleash devastation in a 13d6 firestorm, or, could summon a Tyrannosaurus that can swallow 2 medium sized casters that it digests them until they use the right weapon to deal 25 pts of damage to their stomach so they can get out (the hole auto-closes after 1 person escapes) and then the Tyrannosaurus tries to eat them again. Both are effective ways for using a seventh level spell but one of them has the whole party laughing during the combat! Or better yet, eat a caster and run away!!

Archetype:
Archer/General (commanding summons) aiming at being a Dragon shifter
Using spells to summon allies and shaping the terrain (literally sometimes) while keeping up ranged attack apart from that. Buffs and supporting heals, but really, until you can cast summon monster 2 for a crocodile which will stick around for 3 rounds, you gotta figure out something to do.. And even then, that is your trump card, so, semi-decent archer for a bit of DPS.

9th level:
8 druid 1 fighter human.
Oh yeah, I’m splashing fighter! Not ranger, I would have to take the second level way too early to get rapid shot. I’ll be taking the second level of fighter around 18 or 19th level.
Why the levels of fighter? ARCHER FOR THE DMG. :P But seriously, wild-shaping kicks in at 5th level, but most of the option are for hand to hand combat. Sure it’s FUN to be a bear in the front line, but d8 hit points doesn’t lend for survivability, plus trying to cast in hand to hand? Meh, not so good until epic Improved Combat Casting. So I went the Archer/General, supporting from the back line, dealing ranged damage and commanding the troops. So why fighter, I needed the feats, duh! Which brings me to the downside of this build.. When going Epic level, and Dragon wild shaping, my archer feats will be useless, but being a dragon is not always viable in some situations, so it’s good to be effective no matter what.
Iit might be possible to shave off the 2 feats and go pure druid as an elf for archer, or halfling thrower, but I can only shave off one feat (precise shot), so meh, may as well be good at it,(hrm guess I could throw Scribe Scroll,, but it’s just so awesome!)… Anyway, how likely is it that I play through to epic? NEVER TO DATE!

Feats:
Given feats for any druid (that you must take): Spell focus (conj), Augment Summons and Nature Spell. (Just for reference if when you make your own build.
Low-level feats: Point-blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Spell Focus (conj), Augment Spell. Scribe Spell (yes, that’s right I said it!)
High level Feats (building towards dragon wild shaping caster): Nature Spell, Quicken Spell, Power Attack, Cleave (optional)
Mid level feats: There are a few options here. Precise Shot for those ranged attacks(but at high levels won’t help during my Dragon form caster, so, hrm), Combat Casting (useful for when I am casting in melee range and great builder for the epic feat Improved Combat Casting), Improved Initiative (you know, this feat is for the sneak attacking IMO I think the math comes out at 1 per battle you get a 20% bonus, or is it like starting battle 75% quicker, I dunno, something like that) Toughness (CLASSIC feat, always handy but seldom taken)
So here is what I came up with
Human: Point-blank Shot
1st level: Spell Focus (conj)
2nd level (Fighter): Rapid shot
3rd level Augment Summon
6th level : Scribe Spell
9th: Precise Shot
12th:Natural Spell
15th: Combat Casting
18th: Quicken Spell
19th (fighter 2nd bonus): Wing-Over or Power Attack, need to read up on how power attack would go with the natural weapons of a dragon.

Epic feats are all about wild shape, and automatic quicken.

(I didn’t manage to fit cleave in, dammit! If I was creating this character at high level (15th or above) the ranged feats would be switched out for stuff like multi attack )

Scribe Scroll: This is the SUPER UBER FEAT THAT MAKES ALL MY CASTER STAND OVER ALL OTHERS! Any aux spell that the DC doesn’t matter about (as well as a pew spare summon scrolls) (though it does cost a little). For summon spells the only real difference is the duration and if someone tries to dispel the summons, and I have all the spells in my list (if I burn the money) available for casting! It may be worth while seeing if the party can set up a deal with the local magic shop (usually good after just saving the town from the last big bad guy), and selling brand new scrolls at 70% off. I roll played getting this price once… So much fun!! The store owner said no, so that night, I went back to the inn and invited everyone out for an all day picnic, my treat! We had the picnic just across the road from aforementioned magic shop that said no, and without the party having prior knowledge, I started hawking my scrolls at 70%! There was a small security issue which the party grunt felt with between beers, but I got my price!!! All depending on the DM, but at the time, mine was loving it :P. Though I think I was playing a wizard at the time.

Tactics playing:
1st level: Twang! Why would I summon a mob that will only stick around for 1 round. Minor crowd control. Mostly heals for spells
2nd : TWANG! TWANG! Rapid shot baby, feel the sting. Maybe we can get a Wand of Cure
3rd Level: Produce fire 1d6+(1 per caster level) ranged touch attack combined with Rapid Shot
4th and 5th: Oh wait, now I can summon crocodiles to grapple with enemy casters! YAY!
6th and above: Wow Produce Fire is a first level spell that is AWESOME for a dedicated ranged attacker to use for quite some time! How fun stuff can I make my summons do? How can I control the battle with Gusts of Wind, or Wall of XXXX (whatever)

With the lack of outright damage spells apparent in the Druid spell list, you are relegated to using summons to flank the enemy (you’ll notice that quite a few have a grappling feature), spells to affect where and how the enemy can approach and supporting heals and buffs. Get to know what creatures you can summon and how they can be used, sometimes this involves hoping the DM doesn’t look at carry weights. A druid is not a master of dealing damage (though there are a few options) they are a master of controlling the battle field.

Animal Companion:
There are a few viable option for this but they mostly amount to good mounts. I am partial to a wolf, as once they advance to 4HD they become large creatures, with HD advancement they can replace a ranger for tracking with scent as their skills advance, and free trip when ever they bite with extra feats and ability points as they gain the extra HD as pecked n the players guide. For small druids dire rats can be cool and quirky as a mounts, or dire bats. Again for both of these, as the HD advance, they can be used as mounts.

Wildshape:
I moved Natural Spell up to 12th level feat, just in case there are aquatic scenario’s, but apart from specific creative uses for wild shape, I don’t see this character using it until it gets to dragon wild shape.

Stats : (32 pt buy)
Str:14
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
If it was a lesser point buy, I would go down to 12 str, then 12 con, as they are not priorities for archers.

Good luck and I hope this helps with your own Druid build, but remember this build is MINE!

[Gnaeus]

I would stay away from power attack. You don't get double BAB spent, which is the main thing that makes the feat advantageous. To demonstrate, let's look at an 8th level druid wild shape'd into a polar bear. For such a character, looking at a single claw, the damage against an AC of 20 would only increase by .03, and anything above that wouldn't feature any increase at all. Dropping down to, say, 13, would only get a boost of 2.26, which is nice but nothing special. Meanwhile, assuming the same 13 AC and optimal -4 power attack assignment, the bite attack ends up only dealing an extra .2 damage. So, even at the best sorts of ranges, and with optimal assignment which can in no way be assumed, you're still maxing out at something like weapon specialization, or likely significantly below it, which is by no means a good feat. Instead, maybe improved initiative. That feat is sweet business.

For the core melee Druid, id much rather spend 2 feats for improved grapple or improved trip. A lot of your forms get free trip or grapple checks, and you get bonuses from being large/huge with amazing strength, and they synergize very well with your pet (pet grapples and you trip, or you grapple and pet full attacks.). Also core games don’t have a lot of the cheap ways to nope grapple like heart of water or abrupt jaunt or benign transposition. And there’s lots of things that have really high ACs but low touch AC that you can lock down with a normal grapple check when your bite/grab with mid BAB wouldn’t hit.

[Hiro Quester]

This thread should not be revived (thread necromancy).

[StreamOfTheSky]

About your race:
Human is a good choice for a druid. But Druids are not as feat-starved as other builds, and alternative races will give you other useful things aside from the bonus feat.

For instance, I'm playing a forest gnome Druid. +2 to CON, -2 to strength (with your rolls you could have 20 in Con and Wis!). Plus racial bonuses to hide, listen, etc. a language that enables communication with forest animals, and 1/day SLA
prestidigitation, ghost sound, and dancing lights. Plus gnome flavor.

And the riding dog is perfect size for mount. Train it to trip.

Agreed with this. It's core, your feat options are limited anyway, so human is less appealing. Forest Gnome is the best core druid race, IMO (well, if you count all books included in the SRD as "core" then I guess it's Water Halfling or possibly a psionic race).
Having ghost sound is quite frankly invaluable as a druid in a core game. Everyone saying, "you'll be a bear all day, so who needs str?" Well, yes.... But w/o splat support, he also has no means to speak as that bear. If he has to change back eveey time there's talking to be done, he may well run out of wild shape uses. Ghost sound gives him a way to communicate while still being a bear (IMO it lets you create speech, but even if not you can set up a communication system w/ its sounds for the party). Having someone else in the party get Telepathic Bond spell later on is even better of course, if possible.

Hmm...what else...? I didn't see Flyby Attack mentioned. I think that's the best feat after Natural Spell. Since Improved Flight feat isn't available, you may even want Hover, since most flying options for Druid are Average or worse maneuverability. If you favor forms w/ lots of 2ndary natural attacks, Multiattack is very worth it, too.
I guess that's the good news regarding feats. As a Druid, you have way more options than most other classes between all the monster feats and metamagic. But still, most of them beyond Natural Spell are just personal preference.

[Eldariel]

For feats, just get Spell Penetration and Greater. You don't have many other major options (Craft Magic Arms & Armor is a big one for +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate and +1 Wild Tower Shield in case you don't get to equip magic items in beast form) and in core, overcoming SR can be hard otherwise and Druid does get some good save-or-dies like Baleful Polymorph and Finger of Death. Not crucial but nice to have. Spell Focus: Transmutation is also not terrible.

Well, with Int this high you might as well go for Improved Trip and combine it with Monk's Belt (crafted via. your Craft Wondrous Items for half price, worn after wildshaping to avoid melding) for iterative UA Strikes to go with secondary natural weapons. With Wild Shape Str-values, tripping is a breeze and it's a powerful condition.