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Nicktacular
2015-03-07, 05:33 AM
I was reading about scrolls and it said that they could be bought at different cl as long as the cl is the minimum necessary to cast the spell. So my question is, where does it say the minimum cl for spells?

daremetoidareyo
2015-03-07, 05:38 AM
easy stuff. It is the minimum level needed to cast the spell. So for a scroll of fireball, the minimum caster level is level 5, the level at which a wizard has access to third level spells. But you can pay more to scribe a scroll of fireball at level 15. There is some arbitrage that can be done with domain wizards, as some domains have spells one level early (but usually a level late...).

Madhava
2015-03-07, 05:58 AM
Player's Handbook, pp 27-55. The charts that say 'spells per day' at the top.

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 07:36 AM
actually there is a huge debate about this.

RAW there is no minimum caster level ever stated for casting spells (this is backed up a lot by the ways of getting spells early very easily and by rules. and also the way it is never stated, only that one exists but never defined EVER)

RAI it would be the minimum level that the class who created it (which cannot be defined as its a scroll so that's useless anyway) can achieve casting the spell. the above example of the arcane scroll of fireball is a great example of this.

to change the example above, how about a warmage with versatile spellcaster? being able to cast a caster level 4 fireball. and then write a caster level 4 scroll of fireball as a level 4 character.
and that is with only the cheap plastic cheese that you find in crappy burgers. not real cheese at all.

edit - the minimum caster level does exist but is never defined, so it is safe to say that depending on your type of game it is 1+ or more for any spell

Jormengand
2015-03-07, 08:17 AM
For simplicity, it's probably best to use the lowest possible level of the class that made it.

Then buy cheap scrolls made by ur priests.

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 08:28 AM
For simplicity, it's probably best to use the lowest possible level of the class that made it.

Then buy cheap scrolls made by ur priests.

or a rune scarred berserker.... or a blighter (yes they actually have a use)... or an apostle of peace.......

Chronos
2015-03-07, 09:14 AM
The only known rule on the subject is that Fireball has a minimum caster level of 5, that being the example used in the text. Any other ruling relies on circular reasoning (you can't cast Haste at a caster level lower than 5, because 5 is the minimum caster level for Haste, and it's the minimum caster level because you can't cast it at a lower level than that).

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 09:49 AM
The only known rule on the subject is that Fireball has a minimum caster level of 5, that being the example used in the text. Any other ruling relies on circular reasoning (you can't cast Haste at a caster level lower than 5, because 5 is the minimum caster level for Haste, and it's the minimum caster level because you can't cast it at a lower level than that).

i have already disproved the one RAW instance though, so again it would be specific trumps general. so only people who have the minimum point of CL5 when they can cast fireball have that restriction.....

Sewercop
2015-03-07, 12:16 PM
There was a thread on gleemax that did this. Took all the modifiers to caster levels and such that reduced caster level to prove you could cast 9th lvl with caster level 1.

I got it bookmarked on a different computer, unsure if it has gotten wiped yet. But yeah , never specified. Just proven that you can cast spells with lower caster level.

Troacctid
2015-03-07, 01:27 PM
to change the example above, how about a warmage with versatile spellcaster? being able to cast a caster level 4 fireball. and then write a caster level 4 scroll of fireball as a level 4 character.
and that is with only the cheap plastic cheese that you find in crappy burgers. not real cheese at all.

That's a bad example since Versatile Spellcaster doesn't work that way on a Warmage. (You only know spells on your list of a level you actually have access to.) A better example would be a Sublime Chord casting 4th level Wizard spells at CL 2.

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 01:36 PM
That's a bad example since Versatile Spellcaster doesn't work that way on a Warmage. (You only know spells on your list of a level you actually have access to.) A better example would be a Sublime Chord casting 4th level Wizard spells at CL 2.

i would argue to the max that i have access to the spell level as i have the potential to gain a slot of that level. otherwise what defines access? also fine ill take heighten spell.

yes the sublime chord is another good example.

jaydubs
2015-03-07, 02:57 PM
easy stuff. It is the minimum level needed to cast the spell. So for a scroll of fireball, the minimum caster level is level 5, the level at which a wizard has access to third level spells. But you can pay more to scribe a scroll of fireball at level 15.


Player's Handbook, pp 27-55. The charts that say 'spells per day' at the top.

Keep in mind that this is the answer you need for most games. The later discussion, while probably technically correct, will usually fall into the "if the DM wants to let you" territory.

Feel free to ask. But in my experience, many DMs (myself included) would nix the request.

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 03:00 PM
Keep in mind that this is the answer you need for most games. The later discussion, while probably technically correct, will usually fall into the "if the DM wants to let you" territory.

Feel free to ask. But in my experience, many DMs (myself included) would nix the request.

so as a DM you would completely ban the feat versatile spellcaster? and ur priest? and sublime chord and any of the other classes that have been mentioned which are standard prestige classes that so happen to cast spells at a lower caster level naturally? you would only allow wizards clerics and sorcerers in your whole setting as spellcasters with the occasional druid?

i never want to play in one of your settings....

most things being stated (except the lvl 1 for everything cheese) were natural occurrences that break the mould that the players handbook sets without even using mild chedder.

Ephemeral_Being
2015-03-07, 03:09 PM
so as a DM you would completely ban the feat versatile spellcaster? and ur priest? and sublime chord and any of the other classes that have been mentioned which are standard prestige classes that so happen to cast spells at a lower caster level naturally? you would only allow wizards clerics and sorcerers in your whole setting as spellcasters with the occasional druid?

i never want to play in one of your settings....

It's actually pretty realistic. The percentage of Ur-Priests and Sublime Chords in the world is going to be DRASTICALLY less than that of Sorcerers and Clerics. The majority of scrolls and wands would be crafted by the more common classes. If you wanted to buy a scroll from an Ur-Priest, I would ask you to explain how you found one, and convinced them to sell you a scroll. They aren't exactly a dime-a-dozen, especially in a world where not worshiping a god consigns you to an eternity of torment in the Abyss.

I mean, if the campaign was centered around them? Or your character WAS one? Absolutely. But in most settings, you're not going to find an Ur-Priest in your friendly neighborhood magic shop. You're going to find a Wizard.

jaydubs
2015-03-07, 03:15 PM
so as a DM you would completely ban the feat versatile spellcaster? and ur priest? and sublime chord and any of the other classes that have been mentioned which are standard prestige classes that so happen to cast spells at a lower caster level naturally? you would only allow wizards clerics and sorcerers in your whole setting as spellcasters with the occasional druid?

most things being stated (except the lvl 1 for everything cheese) were natural occurrences that break the mould that the players handbook sets without even using mild chedder.

My simple answer would be - there aren't enough NPCs in the world capable of making those types of scrolls for you to find them on the open market. If you as a PC have the ability to craft that (without any cheese), alright. But they aren't readily available for you to just buy.


i never want to play in one of your settings....

That's cool. It's pretty clear we're comfortable with different levels of optimization. If you ever applied for one of my games, we'd probably figure that out the first time we talked about intended characters. And then hopefully we'd both realize it wouldn't work out, and you'd look for another DM, and I'd look for another player.

I'm not one of the "optimization is bad, you're having badwrongfun" guys. But it's something I don't want to deal with beyond a certain level, as a DM. And I'm not going to feel bad about my own personal preference, either.

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 03:23 PM
i am comfortable with all levels of optimisation. i love playing low op.

another point is i understand that you will never find an ur priest who wants to sit in and make cheap scrolls. what i was saying was that to those who were saying the lowest caster levels acceptable were the wiz/cleric ones were wrong and i was answering your point about "DM fiat only" to allow things which are pretty clearly intended was a very strong ban hammer. essentially saying that if i wanted to play an ur priest i would not get its benifits because i would need to ask my DM to fiat getting spells early at a lower caster level.

i love my low-mid op games with no huge amounts of the BAN hammer.


It's actually pretty realistic. The percentage of Ur-Priests and Sublime Chords in the world is going to be DRASTICALLY less than that of Sorcerers and Clerics. The majority of scrolls and wands would be crafted by the more common classes. If you wanted to buy a scroll from an Ur-Priest, I would ask you to explain how you found one, and convinced them to sell you a scroll. They aren't exactly a dime-a-dozen, especially in a world where not worshiping a god consigns you to an eternity of torment in the Abyss.

I mean, if the campaign was centered around them? Or your character WAS one? Absolutely. But in most settings, you're not going to find an Ur-Priest in your friendly neighborhood magic shop. You're going to find a Wizard.

the point i was saying was not that they would be common but that it is fully within the rules for such things to exist. and not (see above for ban hammer rant on non wiz/cleric)

Flickerdart
2015-03-07, 03:31 PM
another point is i understand that you will never find an ur priest who wants to sit in and make cheap scrolls.
Never is a very long time. What if a PC ur-priest wants to make scrolls? Or an ur-priest gains basic understanding of economics and corners the market with cheap scrolls? What about divine crusaders? Apostles of peace? Sublime chords? Nar demonbinders? None of them, in your world, will ever consider sitting down and thinking "hm, I bet I could take advantage of the fact that I can craft cheap scrolls of powerful spells"?

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 03:35 PM
Never is a very long time. What if a PC ur-priest wants to make scrolls? Or an ur-priest gains basic understanding of economics and corners the market with cheap scrolls? What about divine crusaders? Apostles of peace? Sublime chords? Nar demonbinders? None of them, in your world, will ever consider sitting down and thinking "hm, I bet I could take advantage of the fact that I can craft cheap scrolls of powerful spells"?

probably, but my setting is hugely expansive. so finding the 5-6 people who might in the (hurts my head) amount of people across all planes is improbable. so thats a better word.

Inevitability
2015-03-07, 03:48 PM
Then buy cheap scrolls made by ur priests.

Ur priests? Pfff, commoners, that's where it's at.

Human commoner 1 with Magical Training and a Faustian Pact, combined with Arcane Disciple (miracle) can already cast most spells at caster level 1. Heck, depending on how you read it, his caster level may even be 0!

Flickerdart
2015-03-07, 03:55 PM
probably, but my setting is hugely expansive. so finding the 5-6 people who might in the (hurts my head) amount of people across all planes is improbable. so thats a better word.
Because a businessman doesn't advertise his services?

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 04:05 PM
Because a businessman doesn't advertise his services?

probably in the surrounding 100 miles or so.... but what about the other ummmm large area....

Flickerdart
2015-03-07, 04:38 PM
probably in the surrounding 100 miles or so.... but what about the other ummmm large area....
100 miles? We're talking about people who can cross planar boundaries with a thought.

Necroticplague
2015-03-07, 04:51 PM
The kind of places where you would most be able to sell these goods (planar metropoli, like Sigil and the city of brass) also tend to be the kind of places where both A:adventurers want to go to stock up anyway and B: word can travel pretty fast. And the kind of tricks that lead you to be able to do this also tend to give you the ability to access said places with ease (if you went the level 1 wish method, you can bring yourself anywhere once per day).

BrokenChord
2015-03-07, 05:10 PM
Never is a very long time. What if a PC ur-priest wants to make scrolls? Or an ur-priest gains basic understanding of economics and corners the market with cheap scrolls? What about divine crusaders? Apostles of peace? Sublime chords? Nar demonbinders? None of them, in your world, will ever consider sitting down and thinking "hm, I bet I could take advantage of the fact that I can craft cheap scrolls of powerful spells"?

If you see classes as sets of defined mechanics and remove the usual roleplaying restrictions tied to them, sure.

But in my games, classes like Ur-Priest and Apostles of Peace and Nar Demonbinders (and probably Sublime Chords, though that's arguable) pretty much have fluff restrictions that put people who take them into "would not settle down and break the economy" mindsets. Ur-Priests and Nar Demonbinders by any sensibility will always have bigger plans, and Apostles of Peace can have equally-sized plans but they'd probably be opposed to putting so many other people out of business.

sideswipe
2015-03-07, 05:47 PM
If you see classes as sets of defined mechanics and remove the usual roleplaying restrictions tied to them, sure.

But in my games, classes like Ur-Priest and Apostles of Peace and Nar Demonbinders (and probably Sublime Chords, though that's arguable) pretty much have fluff restrictions that put people who take them into "would not settle down and break the economy" mindsets. Ur-Priests and Nar Demonbinders by any sensibility will always have bigger plans, and Apostles of Peace can have equally-sized plans but they'd probably be opposed to putting so many other people out of business.

that too :smallcool:

Flickerdart
2015-03-07, 06:44 PM
If you see classes as sets of defined mechanics and remove the usual roleplaying restrictions tied to them, sure.

But in my games, classes like Ur-Priest and Apostles of Peace and Nar Demonbinders (and probably Sublime Chords, though that's arguable) pretty much have fluff restrictions that put people who take them into "would not settle down and break the economy" mindsets. Ur-Priests and Nar Demonbinders by any sensibility will always have bigger plans, and Apostles of Peace can have equally-sized plans but they'd probably be opposed to putting so many other people out of business.
"Take over the planar magic economy" isn't a big enough plan for you?

Necroticplague
2015-03-07, 06:59 PM
"Take over thean entire section of the planar magic economy" isn't a big enough plan for you?

Fixed that for you, these kind of shenanigans only really help with things that use spell level and CL in their price formula (mostly wands, potions, and maybe staves).

Flickerdart
2015-03-07, 07:06 PM
Fixed that for you, these kind of shenanigans only really help with things that use spell level and CL in their price formula (mostly wands, potions, and maybe staves).
Those are the only ones that matter. 50 year old magic armor is as good as one that you made yesterday, so that market will be oversaturated and full of people buying second-hand models or buying once and continuing to use it. Scrolls and wands on the other hand are not a done deal - they came for the discount today, and they'll come tomorrow, and they day after that.

BrokenChord
2015-03-07, 07:47 PM
"Take over the planar magic economy" isn't a big enough plan for you?

Uh... No, not really. Though I suspect that has more to do with my definition of grandiose differing from that of most people.

I mean, take Ur-Priest. You're stealing power from gods and have 9ths earlier than most everybody else sans shenanigans, plus, y'know, required Evil alignment. Why sit around making a mostly honest living in the form of scrolls when you can conquer planes? (Or at least rule kingdoms, for those who haven't come quite that far yet.)

Thrice Dead Cat
2015-03-07, 07:51 PM
Wait, so under-cutting everyone else's profits is honest now?

BrokenChord
2015-03-07, 07:55 PM
Wait, so under-cutting everyone else's profits is honest now?

I said mostly honest, not totally honest. You're still putting in effort and selling things to customers for fair prices (they're just lower fair prices, because the CL is lower; lower price for lower quality, y'know?).

Necroticplague
2015-03-08, 08:51 AM
Uh... No, not really. Though I suspect that has more to do with my definition of grandiose differing from that of most people.

I mean, take Ur-Priest. You're stealing power from gods and have 9ths earlier than most everybody else sans shenanigans, plus, y'know, required Evil alignment. Why sit around making a mostly honest living in the form of scrolls when you can conquer planes? (Or at least rule kingdoms, for those who haven't come quite that far yet.)

Because both of those things require funds. Kingdoms need armed forces of some kind to be rules, planes need large armies of exotic creatures to be conquered. Even if you plan on abusing calling spells to get your army instead, you still need to pay the resultant fiends (and if you plan on paying them in souls, you need money for either material components for trap the soul, or thinuam weapons). Selling consumable at a lower cost both gets you these funds, while also allowing you to weaken the resources of who might be your greatest competition (other casters, especially clerics).

Also, on the topic of lower CL=lower quality, this isn't really that true. Most of the spells you want in a wand or a scroll are pretty CL independent, like resurrection magics or healing spells.

Thrice Dead Cat
2015-03-08, 10:51 AM
Because both of those things require funds. Kingdoms need armed forces of some kind to be rules, planes need large armies of exotic creatures to be conquered. Even if you plan on abusing calling spells to get your army instead, you still need to pay the resultant fiends (and if you plan on paying them in souls, you need money for either material components for trap the soul, or thinuam weapons). Selling consumable at a lower cost both gets you these funds, while also allowing you to weaken the resources of who might be your greatest competition (other casters, especially clerics).

Also, on the topic of lower CL=lower quality, this isn't really that true. Most of the spells you want in a wand or a scroll are pretty CL independent, like resurrection magics or healing spells.

In short:

What You Make

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/1/1b/Ur-Priest.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090330164951


What You Play
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/recettear/images/f/ff/Capitalism,_ho!.png/revision/latest?cb=20141226002900

General Sajaru
2015-03-08, 11:34 AM
Also, on the topic of lower CL=lower quality, this isn't really that true. Most of the spells you want in a wand or a scroll are pretty CL independent, like resurrection magics or healing spells.

I think this could go either way; especially at low levels (when cost is most important) you're going to rely upon the wand or scroll maker's CL. At higher levels, paying a little more doesn't really matter.