Polymorph and dominate person

[gogogome]

This came up at a recent session and I didn't know how to rule. The player first casted a suggestion spell on a Bebilith, saying "Let the wizard polymorph you into a hydra. You'll become ridiculously powerful." Then he polymorphed the Bebilith into a human, casted dominate person, and then ended the polymorph. Is the Bebilith under the wizard's control?

He argues that there is no rules of negating established control because of type change.

[sideswipe]

well to start with as far as the creature i found is correct polymorphing into a human was pointless. its will save would not change. so..... why?

then since the creature is not immune to mind control it is susceptible to dominate and always has been.

so it stays dominated. polymorph changes nothing about your mental stuff.

[bjoern]

well to start with as far as the creature i found is correct polymorphing into a human was pointless. its will save would not change. so..... why?

then since the creature is not immune to mind control it is susceptible to dominate and always has been.

so it stays dominated. polymorph changes nothing about your mental stuff.

Dominate person can only target a humanoid, that's why he turned him into a human.

[Crake]

Well, the first line of the dominate person text is "You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind." So even if the spell did happen to remain in place, the wizard could not control it until the bebilith turned into a humanoid again.

[sideswipe]

Dominate person can only target a humanoid, that's why he turned him into a human.

ah. ok.

in the players handbook or the rules compendium there is no rules for ongoing spell effects being cancelled because the target is no longer valid. if it was valid when it was targeted then it remains until the spell runs out.

however, if something were to prevent or break the control it will still fail. and cannot be re established as per normal.
such as no longer being a humanoid. so the last command it was given as a humanoid it will continue to follow, or if accomplished it would do its daily business until the spell ends. no other commands can be given. but he can still however enter its mind and see what it see's as a full round action for the duration.

[bjoern]

Well, the first line of the dominate person text is "You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind." So even if the spell did happen to remain in place, the wizard could not control it until the bebilith turned into a humanoid again.

The "establishing" only happens once, when the spell is first cast. Also the same with targeting. Only once when spell is cast.

The language of dominate person changes from "humanoid" to "creature" after the first sentence.

So long as the target is humanoid for the spell to be targeted and casted, and the link "established" the requirements for humanoid are past and so long as it is still a "creature" the spell would continues as written.

[Sliver]

You establish a telepathic link, you still only control a humanoid subject.

[Duke of Urrel]

According to the D&D FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (30th of June, 2008), page 87:


A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.

If you accept this rule, then you can cast Dominate Person on a bebilith polymorphed into a Humanoid, then dismiss the Polymorph spell and maintain your mental control over a bebilith in bebilith form until the Dominate Person spell expires.

You can find a dot-PDF file of the FAQs here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).

[RoboEmperor]

According to the D&D FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (30th of June, 2008), page 87:



If you accept this rule, then you can cast Dominate Person on a bebilith polymorphed into a Humanoid, then dismiss the Polymorph spell and maintain your mental control over a bebilith in bebilith form until the Dominate Person spell expires.

You can find a dot-PDF file of the FAQs here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).

Wow, just wow. And here I was relying on geas like a sucker. OMG! This opens up so many possibilities for me!

[Grek]

A key point in favour of that rule clarification: If you DON'T accept it, then a whole lot of transmutation spells like Flesh to Stone just don't do anything, because they turn the target of the spell (a creature, for example) into an invalid target for the spell (a statue, for example). It doesn't make sense for spells to work any other way.

[Darth Ultron]

I would not allow this in my game. This is pure rules abuse.

I'd stop it right at the suggestion. A hydra is not more powerful then a Bebilith, so why would it want to be one?

This is real abuse of the ''willing'' bit about spells, and players don't really want to open that can of worms....unless they want foes to do the same to their characters. So if the characters are fine with foes using suggestion they are willing, then they will live a trail of dead polymorphed fish that were once player characters.

[RoboEmperor]

I would not allow this in my game. This is pure rules abuse.

I'd stop it right at the suggestion. A hydra is not more powerful then a Bebilith, so why would it want to be one?

This is real abuse of the ''willing'' bit about spells, and players don't really want to open that can of worms....unless they want foes to do the same to their characters. So if the characters are fine with foes using suggestion they are willing, then they will live a trail of dead polymorphed fish that were once player characters.

hydra is insanely more powerful than a bebilith, what are you talking about? o_O We're talking move and attack 12 times every round!

I agree that this is rule lawyering, but its also creative. Finding alternate ways to do stuff earlier is part of my fun anyways.

[Eloel]

I would not allow this in my game. This is pure rules abuse.


This is RAW and RAI at the same time. Sure, you may not allow it. But this is nowhere close to being an abuse, it's two spells interacting in a way they can without stretching ANY rules.

[Darth Ultron]

This is RAW and RAI at the same time. Sure, you may not allow it. But this is nowhere close to being an abuse, it's two spells interacting in a way they can without stretching ANY rules.

It's RAW sure...but not RAI.

The easy test is: How many players would be OK with the rule interpretations, if used on their character?

1.Suggestion, or any other mind effecting magic can make a target willing and/or not make a save.
2.A target is valid for a spell on the round it's cast.
3.The spell has it's normal duration always.

So could a foe force a player character to be willing and not make a save?

So by this interpretation, a spellcaster could suggest a dragon to be willing, polymorph them into a cat, cast charm animal, end the ploymorph and then have a charmed dragon? It's even worse with dominate, as you can do the same thing and dominate a dargon that you polymorphed into a cat with a weak 3rd level dominate animal...and end the polymorph and have a dominated dragon(a 9th level spell effect).

It's outright rules abuse.

[Eloel]

So by this interpretation, a spellcaster could suggest a dragon to be willing, polymorph them into a cat, cast charm animal, end the ploymorph and then have a charmed dragon?
Sure. Or you can cast Charm Monster from the same spell slot as Polymorph and don't bother with letting them get 2 saves against the effect.

For the record, Dominate Monster is one of the worst things you can do with a 9th level spell slot, so I'm not even getting into that argument.

[Crake]

A key point in favour of that rule clarification: If you DON'T accept it, then a whole lot of transmutation spells like Flesh to Stone just don't do anything, because they turn the target of the spell (a creature, for example) into an invalid target for the spell (a statue, for example). It doesn't make sense for spells to work any other way.

Except flesh to stone is instantaneous, so once the spell is over, there's no magic left to fail. A more appropriate example would be polymorphing into a plant, which are, by type, immune to polymorphing.