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Angafirith
2007-04-09, 02:04 PM
For starters: Ryan, I know you read this forum occasionally. Please don't read this thread, even though I'm sure you've guessed what's coming anyway.

I'm DMing a party consisting of a Bard, a Cleric, a Fighter, and a Monk who all hit level 3 the other day. They're currently going through a tomb that is roughly a hexagonal spiral (an easy shape to make when using the hex variant) where the hallways are all 15 feet across and have been fighting undead warriors and archers all the way down. To add some variety, I had added a few other undead monsters that were further in. That's where the trouble happened.

Right after fighting two groups consisting of 3 warriors and 3 archers, pretty much everyone was weakened. I made a mistake at the time, thinking that single action creatures could do a standard action Charge. That's when I decided to have the Ogre Zombie ('http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm') attack. Here's the problem: 2d8+9 is a lot of damage, coming to an average of 18. Two such attacks would put any member of the party into the negatives. I know that Ogre Zombies can only do a single action, but with their reach and the setup of the dungeon, it seems unlikely that my party would survive the encounter. Couple this with the fact that I, being an idiot, decided to have the encounter consist of TWO Zombies (which, luckily, generally would be unable to fight at the same time) and it seems like I've set it at an impossible power level. This isn't even the toughest thing I threw into the dungeon!

I decided to pause the game just before the Ogre attacked so I could change things around if I needed to. I'll probably let the PCs heal up before the next fight, but I'm concerned about the difficulty of the Ogre. What should I do?

Indon
2007-04-09, 02:11 PM
What I would do:

Force your players to be creative. Play up the 'you're weakened and about to die unless you think of something fast' aspect of the encounter and see what _they_ think up. Give them environmental advantages (such as pillars or rubble they can hide behind) they can make use of, and play up the lack of intelligence of the zombie (If a player says 'I cast "grant living aura" on the first zombie!', have the zombies fight each other for a bit, for example)

It is often when we are in the direst of conditions that our best shows, and if they survive without any deus ex machina, that can make for a damned good story later.

rollfrenzy
2007-04-09, 02:12 PM
When in doubt, Cheat. Fudge some rolls and lower the power level of the ogre. and I would also add a room in which the PCs feel safe enough to rest up. That would allow them to recharge spells and HP and then continue on ( if this gets abused though don't be afraid to collpase the room or have a wandering monster break in to keep them from fighting one thing then resting and continuing.) And just because the ogres CAN use a tactic or fighh smart, doesn't mean they HAVE to.

Dausuul
2007-04-09, 02:23 PM
What I would do:

Force your players to be creative. Play up the 'you're weakened and about to die unless you think of something fast' aspect of the encounter and see what _they_ think up. Give them environmental advantages (such as pillars or rubble they can hide behind) they can make use of, and play up the lack of intelligence of the zombie (If a player says 'I cast "grant living aura" on the first zombie!', have the zombies fight each other for a bit, for example)

It is often when we are in the direst of conditions that our best shows, and if they survive without any deus ex machina, that can make for a damned good story later.

QFT. Zombies are slow and stupid, and most PCs have a gift for desperate creativity in these situations. Be generous about letting them pull off crazy stunts and clever maneuvers, encourage them to come up with something and give them extra time (out of game) to think about it, and you should end up with a memorable and highly satisfying fight.

Lolth
2007-04-09, 03:36 PM
Well, needless to say, I hope your Cleric's got his Turning/Rebuking shoes on. You didn't mention if he'd had any luck with that, or if he'd exhausted his turns already in a dungeon full of Undead.

Silly question maybe, but is there anything stopping them from retreating to rest? Another fine quality of Ogre Zombies (any Zombies) is that they aren't exactly rocket scientists, so you could effectively "re-set" the encounter when they come back.

Dreyden
2007-04-09, 04:48 PM
How much did you tell them? If your description was vague, you have some options. Take away their greatclubs to remove 1d8 damage/hit. Also, is it feasible for them to be short of full health? Perhaps their masters sent them to raid a local village and neglected to inflict them back up to full afterwards.

Here's a nice trick for unintelligent creatures, depending on their orders: playing dead. If the ogres have been ordered to "Attack any living creature who comes through here that isn't wearing a cloak of our organization," have someone playing dead. Perhaps an NPC ranger/rogue/bard/monk/cleric/sorceror/wizard who came to investigate managed to sneak past everything before the ogres, but then they made their spot check/his spell ran out, and clevely, he played dead after a near-miss.
Heck, maybe he's been lying there for a few days, too afraid to move, and is dying of starvation/thirst at the same time.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-09, 04:55 PM
How much did you tell them? If your description was vague, you have some options. Take away their greatclubs to remove 1d8 damage/hit. Also, is it feasible for them to be short of full health? Perhaps their masters sent them to raid a local village and neglected to inflict them back up to full afterwards.

Here's a nice trick for unintelligent creatures, depending on their orders: playing dead. If the ogres have been ordered to "Attack any living creature who comes through here that isn't wearing a cloak of our organization," have someone playing dead. Perhaps an NPC ranger/rogue/bard/monk/cleric/sorceror/wizard who came to investigate managed to sneak past everything before the ogres, but then they made their spot check/his spell ran out, and clevely, he played dead after a near-miss.
Heck, maybe he's been lying there for a few days, too afraid to move, and is dying of starvation/thirst at the same time.

That's a terrific way to introduce an NPC.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-09, 05:02 PM
The players still have the option to run for their lives. Or in the case of zombies, walk for their lives. And I believe inability to run=inability to charge. If they were facing Allips, then yeah, they might be in trouble.

Bardbarian
2007-04-09, 05:53 PM
Right after fighting two groups consisting of 3 warriors and 3 archers, pretty much everyone was weakened. I made a mistake at the time, thinking that single action creatures could do a standard action Charge.


--->You were not in error by allowing the zombies to charge. Creatures with only one action per turn are allowed to charge or withdraw as a standard action. (See the table in the PHB on pg 141, footnote 5.)

--->That being said, if you haven't told people how tall the ceiling is, and have few other tall creatures in the spiral stairs, you could say the stairs are too cramped for the zombies to act effectively, making them fight under the squeezing rules (see pg 148 and 149 of the PHB.) Their lower chance to hit and lowered AC will help out. I also agree with ditching the Ogres' greatclubs. If this still isn't enough, a further step would be to give the Ogres tree brances (or hat racks, or whatever) for an additional -4 to hit for improvised weapons.

geez3r
2007-04-09, 06:07 PM
If all else fails, roll behind the screen and fudge the rolls. Then again, your players could have a streak of luck. At my last gaming session, 7 level 4 PC's (yeah, I don't know how we got 7 players either), managed to beat 2 15th level NPC's. Not through skill mind you, just dumb luck.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-09, 09:37 PM
laugh if they cant kill it saying "it was way too easy an encounter, why didnt you live?" and if they do kill it (again?) say "well you sure are lucky, that was a hard fight"

Indon
2007-04-09, 09:39 PM
The players still have the option to run for their lives. Or in the case of zombies, walk for their lives. And I believe inability to run=inability to charge. If they were facing Allips, then yeah, they might be in trouble.

Zombies and the like can charge, they just can only go at their movement; they single-move charge.

Ethdred
2007-04-10, 05:50 AM
I don't see the problem - if your players can't realise when they need to run away, and can't escape zombies, then they probably deserve a good kicking :) No need to fudge anything, just let them flee/make a fighting withdrawal. All they need is two archers, alternating double moves with full round attacks

Last_resort_33
2007-04-10, 10:14 AM
Every new group that I run, I put them up against something that they can't beat. It is a VERY good thing to do. The first time I did it, it was with a giant skeleton... I call it, in fact a giant skeleton encounter. It teaches the players that the world is not necessarily built around their winning. I teach them that I'm not just going to keep them alive whatever they do... makes them more cautious. They need to run, think, or sneak around it (considering how thick and slow it is, none of them should be too tricky)

Angafirith
2007-04-10, 11:36 AM
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

I see two ways to interpret it:

1) If you are temporarily denied the ability to use both a move action and a standard action (say, staggered), you can still charge. Zombies can not charge.

2) If you are temporarily denied the ability to use both a move action and a standard action, you can not charge. Zombies can charge.

I was using number 1, but I think I'll switch to the other interpretation. It seems to make more sense now that I think about it.

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I've decided to take two of them.

First, I let them know what the situation is and told them to try to come up with a clever way to handle the situation. Just in case they can't, I'm rolling up a Sorceror (with the Message spell, or a better one if I can find it) that will help out, even if he's just telling them to play dead.

hewhosaysfish
2007-04-10, 11:51 AM
I see two ways to interpret it:

1) If you are temporarily denied the ability to use both a move action and a standard action (say, staggered), you can still charge. Zombies can not charge.

2) If you are temporarily denied the ability to use both a move action and a standard action, you can not charge. Zombies can charge.

I was using number 1, but I think I'll switch to the other interpretation. It seems to make more sense now that I think about it.


Interpretation?


Single Actions Only (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge).



Emphasis mine.

Angafirith
2007-04-10, 12:07 PM
Interpretation?

Emphasis mine.

I must have overlooked that. Whoops.