[3.5/PF] DM in need of advice on challenging party

[Chronikoce]

I'm the DM for a long term campaign but recently I have started having some trouble designing encounters that can actually provide a challenge to my players. I usually DM low power games that end around level 6 and this is my first foray into trying to DM for a party that has reached level 9.

Players
PF Paladin level 9
PF Witch Level 9
PF Rogue Level 9
PF Fighter Level 9
3.5 Factotum Level 9
3.5 Dragonfire Adept Level 8

The issue
Between the Witch's Hexes and the Dragonfire Adept's breath (entangling exhalation and slow breath) the bad guys are debuffed to oblivion by round 2. The DFA opens with entangling breath and then next round follows up with slow. By round 2 enemies suffer from the following:

1/4 speed (halved from slow and halved again from entangling)
Single move OR Standard action per turn
-3 Attack
-4 Dex
-1 AC
-1 Reflex
Witch can also apply -4 penalty to either Attack, AC, Ability check, Skill check, or Saves each round (minumum 1 round duration +cackle to extend indefinitely).


The paladin and fighter have enough HP, AC, and Damage to eliminate the debuffed foes. My trouble is that if I send something that can survive more than 2 rounds vs the Paladin and the fighter then the rogue and the factotum can't hit it or deal consistent damage.

The last fight that actually challenged them only did so because the paladin got stuck in a force cage and the fighter spent 4 rounds trying to hack the cage apart. This left all the other party members to face a pair of trolls alone and the fight was bloody and intense.

TL;DR: DM new to level 6+ gaming. can't figure out how to challenge party without running the risk of 1-shotting the squishy rogue and factotum.

Advice appreciated.

[IZ42]

Just apply freedom of movement to some of your enemies, should definitely screw with the debuffs. Another thing to realize is that with most people/monsters, they'll go after the biggest(read as most obvious) threat in the party, which are the big burly dudes in heavy armor, not the (relatively) puny rogue or the bookish looking factotum. Have the enemies focus on those guys, and flanking having a powerful bonus, especially if your melee fighters have the out-flank feat(+4 to attack instead of +2, and scoring a critical hit provokes an Attack of Opportunity from your ally who's flanking), they suddenly become a lot more effective at hitting the enemy. Some judicious use of feint by the rogue can leave the enemies denied DEX bonus to AC, which allows sneak attack to kick in, and I have nothing to suggest for the Factotum because I am not familiar with them as a class.


Have enemy casters as well. Wrap up the witch and the DFA with magic battling, while the melee people deal with the melee mooks. It's much harder to apply debuffs to the enemy barbarian or whatnot when you have people slinging black tentacles or other scary spells at you.

[Crustypeanut]

One big thing about your group is that there are 6 players; That means you need to look into making sure your enemies are 1) Not outnumbered and/or 2) Not all melee types and/or 3) Have terrain advantage. In addition, because there are 6 players instead of the baseline 4, you have to treat your group as 1 level higher; That means that you need to treat them as a level 10 party of 4 to make up for the higher number of players.

One way to deal with the wide range of debuffs your players have is to invest some Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes (and Great Fortitude, if necessary) with your enemies; even if you give it to them free. Improved Versions help even more, while also not completely ruining the players' fun.

When it comes to terrain advantage, think of how the players fight; Make some encounters where the players might have a rough time fighting enemies unless they switch tactics. Fog, water (even shallow water or other types of rough terrain), allowing enemies to be on not-easily-reachable higher terrain or behind fortifications, etc. Alternatively, cramped conditions work too!

Have your own monsters have debuffs as well. Dazzing Display (not applicable against the paladin), confusion, Stinking Cloud, etc can help even the battlefield. That paladin will probably save against anything you throw at him though, because thats what Paladins do.

Don't just use monster with high AC/damage; Monsters with permanent (or even pre-cast) defensive spells (Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, etc) can help withstand the paladin/fighter's high damage while not making the rogue/factotum useless. Even monsters who can move freely through rough terrain the players can't (like a black dragon in a bog) works, except when the players use Freedom of Movement.

Lastly, NEVER do a single monster against the players. With 6 players, they'll easily debuff him to oblivion. Mooks, mooks, and more mooks! Even if they're well below the player's strength, adding mooks help make a screen for the BBEG (or other single-big-monster). If you want a BBEG to survive against these types of players, consider the freeby Improved Iron Will/stuff, or even make him Mythic with Dual Initiative.

Don't be afraid to use save-or-suck spells against the players from time to time. Doing it ALL the time is kinda annoying as a player (you want them to have fun, remember that!), but sometimes you can make it work by adding tension to combat. If the fighter gets dominated (Fighters tend to have notoriously low will saves!) or confused, he might be forced to attack his own, leading to a memorable encounter! Just don't over do it and don't pick on one player specifically.

Look at the players' char sheets and identify key weaknesses and strengths; let them have their fun, but also occasionally throw something that might touch a weakness of a player, such as a low save, lack of DR-overcoming substance (Do the players carry cold iron or silver? If not, something with that resist might stir things up!) or lack poison-cleansing abilities (or never think to prepare them!)? How well can they deal with ranged enemies screened by melee ones? How well can they deal with incorporeal enemies and swarms? Traps in the midst of combat? Hazards and rough terrain while fighting off a flying foe?

Stuff like this! It gets complicated, but give it a shot and you'll figure it out.

Just remember, the key thing as a DM is to make sure all of the players have fun, not simply beat them into oblivion. Unless they're masochistic and enjoy that sorta thing. :D

[Chronikoce]

Thanks for the advice. I am actually fairly experienced as a DM in general but this is my first time dealing with mid-high level play so I was definitely getting thrown for a loop. My current group has been playing this campaign for about a year and a half now so we have a good balance in terms of everyone having fun and it not being a DM vs player situation.

I'll definitely have to stop using small groups of powerful enemies. They do get debuffed to oblivion like you said.