PDA

View Full Version : Mage vs. Mob



Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-09, 02:53 PM
A good friend of mine and fellow gaming buddy described a comic he'd recently seen to me this weekend, it went something like this:

A wizard is walking back to his home from a recent trip to market to buy spell components, scrolls and various magical knicknacks, as he approaches his home he hears an incredible commotion. Rounding the corner he sees a mass of townspeople with your usual implements of mob justice, torches, pitchforks and the like. A spokesman makes his way to the front of the mob and the following conversation ensues:

Spokesmen: Infernal Sorcerer we have come to put an end to your evil spellslinging ways! We're prepared and know that not even a fourth level wizard could stand before the might of all 22 of us!
Wizard: First I'm a wizard - see the book, and second I just leveled up guys.
Spokesman: 5th level? So 3rd level spells then?
Wizard: Yep.
Spokesman: Oh, well we'll just quietly slink away then.
Wizard: Leave your pants.

So, while this is humorous and illustrates the gulf between second and third level spells pretty well after hearing it I made the claim that there was probably a pretty good chance that even the 4th level wizard could probably stand up to the mob, so we put together a little experiment to play out the scenario. The basic thought was that the wizard would have had to be a good fit in an adventuring party and not just optomized for plowing through angry commoners, with that in mind...

Our Intrepid wizard had the following statistics (Elite Array, Standard WBL, no more than 2000 on any single item, Average hp)

Wizard 4 (Conjuration Specialist (Evocation and Necromancy barred Schools))
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
hp: 15
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (Illusion)
Equipment: Ring of Protection, Wand of Colorspray, Scroll of Summon Monster III, Scroll of Stinking Cloud, Scroll of Windwall, 3 Potions of Cure Moderate Wounds, there may have been a few other things but I don't remember anything else substantive.
Spells Prepared: 1st: Mage Armor, Summon Monster I, Grease, Expeditious Retreat, Sleep. 2nd: Gliltterdust, Spider Climb, Summon Monster II, ???

The mob consisted of a 1 2nd Level Aristocrat, 2 1st level Experts, 19 1st level commoners. They all had the stat array 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 12 with thier high stat determined randomly by the roll of a d6. The commoners were armed with one of the following a Torch, a Club, with the exeception of two who had crossbows and a local fisherman with a net, the experts were equipped with the tools of their trades, a smith with a hammer and leather armor, and a bowyer with a longbow, the aristocrat was wearing a chain shirt and carrying a longsword.

As the wizard wanders home from market he gets listen checks as he approaches his home, he fails several but finally becomes aware of them just before rounding the corner that would put him in the middle of their line of sight, about 60ft away from the conflagration of peasantry. Wondering what all the commotion is about the wizard carefully peers around the corner. Unfortunately one of the mob sees him and initiative is rolled. Fortunately our wizard rolls a 14 and wins initiative. The rounds of combat broke down like this:

1st Round: The wizard concerned about being rushed by the aristocrat leading the charge casts spider climb and scales the 10ft to the top of the nearest building. Thinking himself now safely out of reach, the wizard beathes a sigh of relief, until his eyes settle on several of the peasants carrying 10' ladders, appearently they'd planned on scaling the roof of his two story study if he'd barricaded himself inside. One of those three ladders goes up at the end of the block of adjoining buildings about 50ft from the wizards current position. Other peasants make progress up the street the aristocrat still standing prominantly at the front. One of the two crossbow weilding peasants lets out a yell of triumph as his bolt finds a home in the wizards chest (6 damage).

1st round recap: Ok, so the wizard lost more than a third of his hp in the first round, no biggie, soon he'll be throwing out some save or lose spells and he should win the day.

2nd round: Still reeling from the sucking chest wound inflicted upon him seconds ago the wizard retrieves his scroll of wind wall from his case and begins the incantation, thinking to himself Damn, I'd hoped to scribe this soon. The wall goes up in a protective cylinder around the wizard granting him protection from the towns two crossbowmen and the bowyer. A second ladder goes up in a place about 35 feet from the wizard, and peasants begin to scale the first ladder placed into position. More people advance up the street and clamber up onto the rooftops. The two crossbowmen and the bowyer all fire, only to see their arrows and bolts carried away by the protective wall of gale force winds surrounding our caster-protagonist, frustrated they abandon they're ranged weapons and advance on the wizards position.

2nd round recap: Three opponents neutered by the wind wall will now have to combat unarmed. The wizard takes no more damage and hovers at 9 hp

3rd round: Finally, I can start to clear away some of these vermin thinks the wizard as utilizes his scroll of Summon Monster III and calls forth a Fiendish Crocodile in the midst of the gaggle of townsfolk advancing up the road. It promptly takes a monstrous bite out of the Aristocrats leg, dealing 13 damage, but the aristocrat fortuitously manages to pry the beasts jaws from his leg before it begins its notorious "death roll" (no grapple this round). Making a lucky Knowledge (arcana) check the aristocrat recognizes the croc as a summoned creature and orders some of the townsfolk to hold it at bay since it will vanish back into the ether in mere seconds. Mortally wounded but still standing the aristocrat begins to climb a third ladder, this one placed on the same building the wizard is standing on, a mere 15 feet from his current position. The town smith the fisherman and three commoners engage the crocodile, the net scores a hit and entangles the crocodile, the smith brings his hammer down on the creature forehock, enraging it and causing 5 damage, the other commoners take total defense. More commoners race across the rooftops of the adjoining buildings, one manageing to make it into melee with the wizard.

Round 3 recap: This is where things get interesting, wizard is in melee, beast is summoned. Wizard still has 13 hp, the whole mob is still standing 3 are sans weapons.

Round 4: Needing to deal with the man who's closed to melee before he starts to lay a serious beating on the fragile caster the wizard unleashes a furuious flashing frenzy of colors from his wand sure to bring on epileptic seizures in all but the most willful townsfolk. As expected the commoner drops like a sack of turnips, so far so good. The crocodile turns on the man with the net and bites down hard rending the hapless fishermans leg from his body. More commoners rush forth, three close to melee and attempt to begin grapples one fails to get a good grip on the wizards robes, and one is turned back by a successful attack of opportunity, but the third establishes a solid hold wrenching the wizards arm into an uncomfortable position (2 subdual damage). In the street the expert swings and the crocodile again and misses, the three commoners again take the total defense action.

Round 4 recap: The wizard is down to 7 hp and grappled, one townsperson lays slain by the crocodile, one unconscious at the wizards feet, and three have abandoned their weapons.

Round 5: Blast these buggers will they ever leave me be! The wizard lets loose with another blast from his wand of colorspray, five out of six commoners in range go down, but unfortunately the one survivor is the one grappling the wizard. The croc attacks one of the commoners trying to hold it back but thanks to the commoners total defense and an abismal roll on my part the attack misses. The Aristocrat ascends a ladder and orders more commoners into the grapple. And they pile on, 4 more attempt to grapple the wizard, one misses his touch attack but the others throw hands in the wicked balibrook developing on the city rooftops, (5 more subdual damage).

Round 5 recap: To quote the classic arcade Gauntlet: "Wizard needs food Badly!" he's down to 2 hp, 1 commoner dead, 1 expert dying, 6 commoners unconcious.

Round 6: With the tide turned against him the wizard starts to think about escape. Making the difficult concentration roll he casts grease upon his robes to help him escape from the grapple, but since that consumed his only standard action, the actual escape will have to wait until next round. The Crocodile makes another horrible roll, misses the commoner and blinks out of existance, the duration of the summon expired. The commoners in the grapple manage to inflict another 4 points of subdual damage and the wizard slips into unconciousness from the savage beating he has recieved.

Round 6 recap: Things went poorly for the wizard this round, he fails to eliminate any additional members of the mob and is eventually over come. In his unconcious state the wizard doesn't see the noble thrust his longsword into the wizards chest cutting the sustaining thread of life before the fates had their chance to do the same.

So aside from telling an interesting story my goal here was to ask is this the outcome most would have expected, and secondly how could the wizard have been played differently. Despite over 15 years of playing D&D this is only the second time I've played a caster, the first time since 1997 (so consequently the first time in 3.x). I've DM'd them as opponents so I have a bit of experience but even still I guarentee there are many here with greater caster experience than I, and I yeild to thier greater knowledge.

Here are a couple of my own thoughts: this soundly indicates that the primary currency of D&D combat is the standard action, outnumbered as he was the wizard was at a huge action deficit meaning each of his actions needed to take as many opponents out of the fight as possible. I feel the mistakes were made early in the fight, particularly in round 1 when his action should have been to back around the corner and get his mage armor up, then spiderclimbing to relative saftey the next round. I'm not at all sure summoning was the right path to go and I've decided fore darn sure that the Croc was a poor choice, anything with multiple natural attacks would have been vastly superior. Also the stinking cloud would have been a big help but because they had multiple ladders and several avenues of approach there wasn't a good chokepoint to ensure the wizards assailents passed through it requiring them to save or forfiet a huge number of actions from nausea. The wand of colorspray worked wonders but it required them to get far too close before it was useable and the sheer number of mooks closing in on him mitigated its usefulness.

So what are your thoughts?

Aquillion
2007-04-09, 03:16 PM
Alter self to grow wings, then fly out of reach. Cast Invisibility. Then cast Summon Swarm and concentrate until the mob is dead or runs away.

Easy. And the important spells (Alter Self and Invisibility) are spells any level 4 wizard should consider preparing.

martyboy74
2007-04-09, 03:22 PM
Although Aquillion does how a good point, the wizard doesn't really reach the levels of huge powers until 10th level or so, and doesn't totally make the party obsolete until 15th, give or take a few level, depending on classes and optimization levels.

Skyserpent
2007-04-09, 03:24 PM
Since he's on the roof he can make sure to knock down a few ladders before the commoners got up there. if he had the mind to take sudden extend or something while also taking sculpt spell at level 3, he could easily have turned his burning hands spell, or even a good grease spell into the following

Burning hands
Any number of painful shapes, including a fireball and dragoncone.

This can also be done with a good save/lose Color Spray spell.


Grease:
4 10ft cubes, use it on the ladders, fun times

20ft radius blast, DUH, i.e. fireball but more hilarity.

120ft line. Not as funny but pretty good to cover an escape.

60ft cone. Cone of Cold style, much like burning hands

Even Caltrops, a tiny little cantrip from Spell Compendium, can be upped to a mere first level spell
sending the tiny annoying d4s all over the damn place.

If the only problem is area of effect Sculpt Spell wins.

goat
2007-04-09, 03:24 PM
I think I'd have started with the stinking cloud, and then when they'd staggered out I'd have been summoning a swarm rather than monster. A swarm of spiders would have put them off a fair bit. The only ones able to have hurt them would have been swinging at them with torches, and they're ungrappleable. And they'd only be able to do that when they got over the nausea, which a swarm of spiders would also cause whenever it's in the same area.

Doubt a net would do much either.

That and I just like swarms.

Jalil
2007-04-09, 03:25 PM
I would have started off by summoning a huge centipede in front of me, stopping them in their tracks. Next turn sees glitter dust smoking the majority of the mob. Then spam Color spray until they all drop. An additional summoned monster can help make the CdG's you need.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-09, 03:27 PM
What the wizard should have done is "defeated" the encounter by successfully escaping alive (therefore thwarting the mob). That's a matter of Expeditious Retreat + run actions.

Alternatively, Alter Self + Avariel or Raptoran would let him fly.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-09, 03:28 PM
Oh I forgot an important element of the discussion: Core Only.

Otherwise I would have built the wizard somewhat differently.

MaxKaladin
2007-04-09, 03:30 PM
The first thing that comes to mind is that this wizard doesn't have Web memorized. That's a standard adventuring spell and it would be great in this situation.

Mob: "Hi, we're here to kill you."
Wizard: "Huh? What did I do to-"
{Archers shoot at wizard}
{Wizard casts Web, engulfs a bunch of mob members in webs}
Wizard: "Ooh, are those torches you're carrying?"
WHOOSH! {Webs catch on fire frying mob members}

Protection from Arrows seems like another obvious choice for an adventuring wizard. This wizard wouldn't need to burn a 3rd level scroll that way.

Levitate also seems like a common adventuring spells and it would get you away from the mobs even if they have ladders.

One tactic would be to cast Protection from Arrows and Levitate to get out of reach and then summon monsters to get rid of these silly npcs.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-09, 03:30 PM
What the wizard should have done is "defeated" the encounter by successfully escaping alive (therefore thwarting the mob). That's a matter of Expeditious Retreat + run actions.

Alternatively, Alter Self + Avariel or Raptoran would let him fly.

Well I understand that. Escaping would have been the sounder course of action but it wasn't really the point of the discussion. If he had only wanted to get away that would have been simple, perhaps there were things in his house he couldn't bare to give up without a fight, I don't know.

Several of the suggestions so far have been things I considered but then had to throw out the window to keep with the core only limitation, the sudden metamagics and summon swarm were at the top of that list. I think I did have web memorized, see the ??? spot on the spells prepared list, I forgot what one of them was and left my notes at my buddies place.

To better elabotate the scene, it wasnt a single rooftop but rather the roofs of several adjoining buildings so that it order to get to the furthest away ladder and push them back down would have involved a double move followed by a standard action to push the ladder down. I considered the tactic but decided my actions were too precious to spend on such a mediocre delay tactic. Especially since eventually ladders had were placed in 3 different locations (at the far end of the row of adjoined buildings 60ft away, at about the a halfway mark 35ft away and then 10ish feet in front of the wizard on the same building he was in).

Skyserpent
2007-04-09, 03:35 PM
Wizards are on an understandably skewed power scale, but I think a Fog Cloud, and then some summon monster spells would do the trick. In fact, I'd summon an unseen servant with instructions to knock over any ladders, considering it doesn't seem to need sight. And then use that bigass crocodile under a cloud cover so they wouldn't know what's hitting 'em.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-09, 03:44 PM
Let me be clear this wasn't at all a question about the wizards power level or any claims about game balance, just a: hey, do you think this is possible kind of situation.

I had overlooked alterself because I've pretty much erased the whole polymorph chain from my memory, due to the consistantly questionable balance and routine houserule modifications, admittedly it might have made the challange easier.

Jasdoif
2007-04-09, 03:44 PM
Several of the suggestions so far have been things I considered but then had to throw out the window to keep with the core only limitation, the sudden metamagics and summon swarm were at the top of that list.Umm...summon swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonSwarm.htm) is in the SRD, are you sure it's not core?

jlousivy
2007-04-09, 03:45 PM
This would be one occurance where flaming sphere could have been very beneficial.
After the arrow shot (if it occured) a nice false life could have helped him back on his feet if hp was an issue
however, you banned both of those schools so you'd need something else
i personally like the mount spell-- have it charge at the enemies scattering them.
but i hate to say it, bears has the right idea. his method or invisibility and walk away.

alternatively, invisibility-- get in a better position and then start unloading some SMII and color sprays

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-09, 03:47 PM
Umm...summon swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonSwarm.htm) is in the SRD, are you sure it's not core?

I was working from a PHB, maybe I just flipped past it. It was a spell I was vaguely aware of but had never encountered personally, and when I didn't see it in my initial passthrough I may have just moved on.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 03:49 PM
This is my post from the other one of these threads.
-----------
You forgot sleep. He should have cast it on the guys coming up the ladder. It can get 5 commoners per casting.

Web would have been a good choice as well. Protection from arrows is a better choice than wind wall at that level. And wind wall is from one of your banned schools.

A scroll of fly would have been a better choice. It makes it so you can't be grappled.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-09, 03:51 PM
This would be one occurance where flaming sphere could have been very beneficial.
After the arrow shot (if it occured) a nice false life could have helped him back on his feet if hp was an issue
however, you banned both of those schools so you'd need something else
i personally like the mount spell-- have it charge at the enemies scattering them.
but i hate to say it, bears has the right idea. his method or invisibility and walk away.

alternatively, invisibility-- get in a better position and then start unloading some SMII and color sprays

The problem with false life would have once again been the opportunity cost associated with the action, yes the wiz once again has a few more HP, but he didn't make any progress towards balancing the action equation, thus not changing the likelihood he would be injured again.

Invisiblity/colorspray combo sounds nice, I'd have to look over the spell text again I assumed casting a spell had the same effect as attacking, namely ending the spell.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-09, 03:52 PM
This is my post from the other one of these threads.
-----------
You forgot sleep. He should have cast it on the guys coming up the ladder. It can get 5 commoners per casting.

Web would have been a good choice as well. Protection from arrows is a better choice than wind wall at that level. And wind wall is from one of your banned schools.

A scroll of fly would have been a better choice. It makes it so you can't be grappled.

See I my best attempt at playing a wizard and it betrays my lack of experience with the spell lists, overlooking great spells and casting a scroll from a banned school (it must be evocation.)

Aquillion
2007-04-09, 03:55 PM
Well I understand that. Escaping would have been the sounder course of action but it wasn't really the point of the discussion. If he had only wanted to get away that would have been simple, perhaps there were things in his house he couldn't bare to give up without a fight, I don't know.Yes, but he can use a temporary retreat as a defense. He can run out of reach, then summon things and send them at the enemy as the follow, or, better yet, just turn invisible, summon something, then move until the enemy loses track of him. Invisibility would last 40 rounds, and he has lots of ways to indirectly attack without breaking it.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-09, 04:05 PM
Protection From Arrows + Levitate = Neener Neener Neener!

Then whatever - Sleep, Summon Swarm, or just pull out a light crossbow and start shooting back. What Wizard is without a good Dex? Levitate is one minute/level, Protection from arrows gives him DR 10/Magic (which the mob couldn't surmount) for 40 points of "damage". Pluck off the archers first (a light crossbow does 1d8, vs. a Commoner's / Experts d4 (2)/d6 (3) HP? One shot each, usually) then sit back high and mighty until they either lose hope or all die. Either way works.

Two spells, no scrolls needed. Protection From Arrows is a great one for avoiding ranged stuff (and a Wizard needs to stay out of melee range anyway - so arrows are one of the big threats), and Levitate has tons of uses.

Darkxarth
2007-04-09, 04:12 PM
I think you performed admirably during the battle. The Wizard lost, but as you said it was expected. Could he have won? Yes, it's a possibility. Perhaps casting Mage Armor first would've been a better route, but who's to say that some Commoner or the Aristocrat wouldn't haev gotten lucky and hit anyway?

I think the best option in this scenario is to try and escape. If the Wizard can prepare for the battle, say by hiding from the mob for the night, then he could pretty likely return and defend his home. Of course, that's not what this exercise is out to prove. The Wizard did not start the day thinking, "Hmm, what should I prepare, I'm probably going to have to fight a mob of angry villager today..."

All that aside, given the situation you presented, this would be a good course of action.

Assuming that the Wizard manages to win Initiative (He's pretty much totally screwed if he doesn't).

Round 1: The Wizard, let's call him Merlin, discovers the mob's intentions and realizes that (with his 8 in Charisma) he can't convince them not to try and destroy him. So, he casts Mage Armor as a Standard action and retreats 30 feet with a Move action.

Mob: The mob charges at Merlin, and the bowyer and two crossbow-wielding commoners can't fire at him because the crowd blocks their shots.

Round 2: Merlin casts Grease on the ground between himself and the crowd, preferably directly underneath the Aristocrat and the front of the mob. He uses his Move action to retreat 30 more feet.

Mob: Let's say that while some of the mob slips and falls, the Aristocrat doesn't and the mob quickly learns to go around the 10x10 square. The Aristocrat closes on Merlin and makes an attack, however thanks to the Mage Armor he misses, this time.

Round 3: Merlin realizes that there may be too many of these angry villagers to fight them all off. However, he can't currently retreat because of the Aristocrat that is just waiting for him to run and leave himself open for an Attack of Opportunity. So, he uses his Wand of Color Spray and leaves the Aristocrat and several others unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, and the rest of those ill effects in the Color Spray description. Merlin takes his Move action and moves another 30 feet away.

Mob: The blast of the wand leaves several member of the mob, including their leader, down, but the rest of the mob only becomes more enraged, and continues chasing Merlin, the head of the group catching up and performing charge attacks, 1 of which is successful, despite the Mage Armor, and deals 1d4+1 damage with his Club (he had a Strength 12, unfortunately for Merlin). He rolls a 4 and deals 5 damage to Merlin.

Round 4: Down to two-thirds of his hit points, Merlin succeeds in a Casting Defensively check and is able to cast Summon Monster II and calls forth 1d3 Monstrous Medium Fiendish Centipedes, he rolls decently and get 2, they appear directly behind the villagers who are trying to attack him and attack them, dealing 3 and 4 damage respectively, disabling one commoner and scaring the pants off the other. Merlin moves 30 feet farther away, provoking 3 AoOs, only one of which hits (thanks again to his Mage Armor spell) and he takes 3 damage.

Mob: Seeing the beasts appear out of nowhere and noting that they've already severly injured one of the villagers, the rest quickly try and get away, several stay and fight the Centipedes however, and with flanking bonuses are able to destroy one.

Round 5: Merlin, seeing that the crowd is momentarily distracted by his monsters, casts Expeditious Retreat and moves 60 feet away, getting the retreat started in earnest. The remaining Centipede bites at another villager, but misses.

Mob: One of the villagers sees that their Wizard is escaping, and attempts to lead the rest in pursuit once more, a few take up the charge again, but the majority are tending to the several injured and unconscious members of the mob, while others are trying to defeat the last Centipede.

Round 6: Merlin takes a double move action and gets 120 feet away, clearly outdistancing his attackers. He dismisses his Centipede, not truly wanting to hurt the villagers more than was necessary to facilitate his escape.

Mob: The few remaining pursuers stop running as they watch Merlin bound away at incredible speeds. The rest of the former mob tends to the wounded men and watches the Color Sprayed ones until they recover. There are no casualties, but the mob learns its lesson.

This battle was entirely fabricated. I made no actual rolls, I didn't work out any stats, I just made arbitrary decisions that didn't favor one side over the other, I think.

It seems to me that the Wizard simply cannot defeat the mob as he stands, they are too many and he does not yet have the firepower to stop them. However, if played carefully with a few decent rolls he can escape to fight another day.

RandomNPC
2007-04-09, 04:14 PM
i know you dropped evocation, but the experiment was a sucess, a wizard with another level, and fireball prepared, would have left a forest of chared boots (for effect) and maybe five confuzed, warm, survivors, with brown pants.

as is thats why i don't make specialists, unless its a group of different specialists as bad guys. because you could prot. from arrows, levitate/fly then fireball/magic missile as grouping of opponents determined. i know there are other attack oriented spells, but i like those. they taste of victory.

martyboy74
2007-04-09, 04:29 PM
It seems to me that the Wizard simply cannot defeat the mob as he stands, they are too many and he does not yet have the firepower to stop them. However, if played carefully with a few decent rolls he can escape to fight another day.

And then he can think 'Hmm, I bet I will be attacked by an angry mob of villagers. I should prepare for that.' Once he does that, the villagers are, more or less, screwed.

Darkxarth
2007-04-09, 04:51 PM
And then he can think 'Hmm, I bet I will be attacked by an angry mob of villagers. I should prepare for that.' Once he does that, the villagers are, more or less, screwed.

Yes, once he escapes and is able to prepare for a battle with the mob, he could very conceivably beat them. Even with Evocation as a banned school. At the very least, Expeditious Retreat to run circles around the villagers while using the Summon Monster spells to combat them would likely work, and that was using effectively no imagination. Any roll-player worth their gp could think of several other ways of creatively defeating the villagers.

Raum
2007-04-09, 04:56 PM
Here are a couple of my own thoughts: this soundly indicates that the primary currency of D&D combat is the standard action, outnumbered as he was the wizard was at a huge action deficit meaning each of his actions needed to take as many opponents out of the fight as possible. I feel the mistakes were made early in the fight, particularly in round 1 when his action should have been to back around the corner and get his mage armor up, then spiderclimbing to relative saftey the next round. I'm not at all sure summoning was the right path to go and I've decided fore darn sure that the Croc was a poor choice, anything with multiple natural attacks would have been vastly superior. Also the stinking cloud would have been a big help but because they had multiple ladders and several avenues of approach there wasn't a good chokepoint to ensure the wizards assailents passed through it requiring them to save or forfiet a huge number of actions from nausea. The wand of colorspray worked wonders but it required them to get far too close before it was useable and the sheer number of mooks closing in on him mitigated its usefulness.

So what are your thoughts?You’re correct, actions are the primary currency in D&D combat. That does make large numbers of opponents potentially dangerous. However, you wasted or misused most or all of the wizard’s actions. Round 1 was spent on a completely ineffective defensive tactic which functionally ceded initiative to the mob, round 2 was spent on a defense only effective against 10% of the mob, round 3 was spent on a single target offensive spell (come on, he’s fighting a crowd use an AoE and if you have to summon something, put it between you and the crowd), round 4 was his first effective offensive action…but by this point he’s grappled and significantly injured. Round 5 is a repeat of 4 and round 6 is blown in an unsuccessful escape attempt.

Basically you gave the mob four more rounds of effective action than you did the wizard. Of course the wizard loses.

He could have prepared more effective spells, but even staying with your list he misused them badly. His first action could have been Grease followed by a move action to put him behind cover. That would have prevented a large number of the mob from even reaching him and the second round could have Color Sprayed those who did make it through the Grease without falling. Third round use Glitterdust to blind your most dangerous enemies (as many crossbowmen & the aristocrat as you can get in the area). Then you summon a monster to clean up the left-overs while you Coup de Grace those out due to Color Spray.

There are other options, Glitterdust could have been used first for example. But the point is, the wizard in your example wasted two-thirds of his actions. And, as others have pointed out, his spell selection was sub par to start with.

Ryuuk
2007-04-09, 07:32 PM
Would starting off with a Sleep or Summon Monster be wise though? Both a have a casting time of 1 round, meaning that you get to start casting them on your turn, let the entire mob go and then, at the start of your next turn, have the spell go off.

daggaz
2007-04-09, 07:35 PM
Summon monster has a casting time of one round (or is it different on a scroll for some reason?)... so that crocodile shouldn't have shown up until round four, just before the wizard's turn.

Also, feh... waste a whole round summoning some guy? I woulda started by making sure they stayed away from me first. 21 angry mobsters, not all of them will even bother with the summoned monster. Grease, web, color spray,... a better start once you are safe from arrows.

Doh! ninjaed.. Well, it had to happen eventually..

NullAshton
2007-04-09, 07:49 PM
Grease doesn't work, because the guys with ranged weapons can simply shoot the wizard.

Web, they're just entangled. They can still shoot weapons...

Color spray has a low area of effect. Commoners can avoid it by spreading out all around the wizard, then the wizard has to take four actions to hit all of them.

Protection of arrows work, yes. Though you have a choice. Stop melee attackers first, or stop ranged attackers first? Each one lets some of them get through.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 07:54 PM
Round 1: Protection from arrows, retreat 30 feet.
Round 2: Scroll of Fly, retreat 30 feet straight up
Round 3: Web by the guys with torches
Round 4: Sleep or Glitterdust or Colorspray on some of the people
Repeat round 4 until all of the mob is dead or incapacitated.

The Glyphstone
2007-04-09, 07:57 PM
And Web is Conjuration, not Evocation.

martyboy74
2007-04-09, 07:57 PM
Round 1: Protection from arrows, retreat 30 feet.
Round 2: Scroll of Fly, retreat 30 feet straight up
Round 3: Web by the guys with torches
Round 4: Sleep or Glitterdust or Colorspray on some of the people
Repeat round 4 until all of the mob is dead or incapacitated.

What do you do when you have to start swooping down for the killing blows? Glitterdust would only last 4 rounds at this level, and you probably can't incapacitate them in 4 rounds (after you start glitterdusting/color spraying).

Borogove
2007-04-09, 07:59 PM
as others have suggested :

round one: levitate out of reach
round two: protection from arrows
round three: summon swarm on top of the archers
round four onwards: pick off commoners with crossbow

edit: alternate round four: pick off commoners with a wand of magic missle

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 07:59 PM
Glitterdust on the annoying ones. Such as the archers so that they can't do more damage than your PFA. But mostly use sleep and colorspray. Or your bow and take pot shots at the mall day.

NullAshton
2007-04-09, 08:03 PM
Round 1: Protection from arrows, retreat 30 feet.
Round 2: Scroll of Fly, retreat 30 feet straight up
Round 3: Web by the guys with torches
Round 4: Sleep or Glitterdust or Colorspray on some of the people
Repeat round 4 until all of the mob is dead or incapacitated.

And any melee commoners win initiative, and you're screwed.

Roethke
2007-04-09, 08:05 PM
Couldn't the mob Run after the wizard, as soon as he decided to take a standard action to cast a spell? The wizard would probably only be able to take one attack of opportunity, and might easily muff it.

Starting 60' away, the mob can cover 120' in a round, while the spell casting wizard can only cover 30'. If they surrounded the wizard before he flew up, that's a lot of attacks of opportunity to deal with.

Assuming the wizard wins initiative, and Fly is the first spell cast, the wizard would still have to deal with 1 round worth of crossbow bolts + thrown improvised weapons (remember, at least one is likely to hit).

Rnd 1: Wizard casts Fly, and moves 30' straight up.
Rnd 1: Everybody throws something at him/shoots at him.
Rnd 2: Wizard casts Prot. From Arrows, if still alive. etc...

OR
Rnd 1: Wizard casts Prot. From Arrows, and retreats 30'
Rnd 1: The crowd Runs, easily covering the 90' between them, surrounding the wizard (Wizard gets an AoO on one).
Rnd 2: Wizard, now surrounded, is in a real pickle.

martyboy74
2007-04-09, 08:05 PM
And any melee commoners win initiative, and you're screwed.
The wizard can survive one round of beatdown.

Borogove
2007-04-09, 08:11 PM
I think the imporatnt thing to do is to get the wizard airborne, and therefore not grappleable, as quickly as possibly.

Aquillion
2007-04-09, 08:34 PM
Grease doesn't work, because the guys with ranged weapons can simply shoot the wizard.

Web, they're just entangled. They can still shoot weapons...

Color spray has a low area of effect. Commoners can avoid it by spreading out all around the wizard, then the wizard has to take four actions to hit all of them.

Protection of arrows work, yes. Though you have a choice. Stop melee attackers first, or stop ranged attackers first? Each one lets some of them get through.Invisibility, invisibility, invisibility! They have no way of seeing through it, and no ranks in any of the skills that could let them pinpoint your location. Just use invisibility and keep away from the groping mob and they can't hurt you at all for 40 rounds. It'll shut down both the archers and the melee people at once.

Then you can levitate to make extra sure nobody gets lucky and trips on you, and/or cast summon swarm and concentrate while it kills everyone.

Hmm... the mob has torches, though, which might let them fight back against the swarm. Fog Cloud or Darkness to back it up would help, since the swarms all have ways to detect opponents without using vision. A few grease spells on the ground might help it, too, especially if using a bat swarm so they can fly over them. Web targeted on opponents would break your invisibility, but you could do it after levitating and casting Protection from Arrows... ditto for other spells that'd count as attacks.

Someone suggested Flaming Sphere. The problem is that it has to stop moving when it enters a space with an enemy--so unless they throw themselves at it it'll kill 5 opponents at most. You could set the city on fire if you're evil, though. That'd probably distract them.

Of course, another factor to consider here--how angry are these commoners? More to the point, how determined are they? I suspect in actual play most DMs would have them rolling morale failures as soon as the wizard kills one. Wizards are scary, after all, and they don't necessarily know the difference between a level 4 wizard and a level 7 one.
A sufficiently flashy Minor Image or even a Silent Image might be able to send them running. If you can get out of sight for a moment, Disguise Self could throw them off your scent until you have time to prepare something better. Whether or not a wizard would have those spells memorized is an open question, although illusions can often be useful if used properly.

Oh, here's another thought if you have it memorized: Pyrotechnics on one of their torches for the Fireworks effect. It's another spell likely to scare people away, and if it doesn't, it's quite likely to blind all or most of them for long enough for you to escape or pull some other trick in any case. Pyrotechnics is actually a pretty useful spell if you happen to have a fire available... massive range, and blinds everyone in 120 feet if they fail their save.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-09, 09:02 PM
Web, they're just entangled. They can still shoot weapons...Fun thing about Web - it grants Cover. 5 feet grants Cover, 20 feet grants Total Cover.

Web has a 20 foot radius. If the archers are in the back, they can't shoot you.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 09:07 PM
Ah yes. I forgot about invisibility.

Round 1: Invisibility, retreat 30 feet
Round 2: Scroll of Fly, retreat 30 feet straight up
Round 3: Protection from Arrows, fly over the mob
Round 4: Web on the guys who have torches
Round 5: Attack with your light crossbow

Lord Nyax
2007-04-09, 09:09 PM
I'm all for Illusion over Conjuration here. The lower level Illusion spells pretty much rock the socks off of large groups with bad will saves (ahemcommonersahem). A quick Silent Image of a rampaging fire giant would be DC 14 or 15, meaning about 75% of the mob would be fleeing in terror. IMO, that's more useful than any creature you could summon...right?

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-09, 09:13 PM
Radius, not diameter; the archers just have to be behind center.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-09, 09:21 PM
an evoker would have had more luck, burning hands would destroy the commoners, and summoning in front of him instead of in the mob would have been better.

Virail
2007-04-09, 11:22 PM
Round 1: cast protection from Arrows, move 30ft back
Mob surrounds Wizard with run action
Round 2: Cast Fly from scroll, withdraw 30ft up.
Round 3: Watch the commoners die.

Roethke
2007-04-10, 12:20 AM
Round 1: cast protection from Arrows, move 30ft back
Mob surrounds Wizard with run action
Round 2: Cast Fly from scroll, withdraw 30ft up.
Round 3: Watch the commoners die.

Withdraw is a full-round action, so you've still got trouble in round 2.

(the limited withdraw only applies if you can only take a standard action each round)

Edit: In addition, as you leave the 5' cube above your starting position(i.e. moving from 5' off the ground to 10' off the ground), even with a withdraw action, you'll still provoke attacks of opportunity. You only get one freebie square per withdraw
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw

Thoughtbot360
2007-04-10, 02:30 AM
Wizard (to the mob): Whoa, whoa, hey! What's with all the hostility? What did a wizard ever do to you?
Commoner: A wizard turned my brother into a frog just for fun! You're all evil!
Wizard: Oh, right....
Aristocrat: You wizards are an abberation of nature, you're going to undo the fabric of reality!
Wizards: No, wizards are an important part of the...eco-bio-deathosphere. If you kill all the wolves, you're going to have a crap load of bunnies. And by bunnies, I mean stupid people. By the way, you know I'm just a Programmed Image, right?
Mob: ........
Wizard: Whoa, whoa, hey! Whats with all the hostility? What did a Wizard ever do to you?
Aristocrat: ITS NOT THE REAL ONE! FIND HIM!
Illusionary Wizard: Oh, right.
Aristocrat: OH, SHUT U- *BOOM! Everyone dies*
Real Wizard (60 ft above the crowd): And mom couldn't understand why I would spent 20 bucks on an "ask a ninja" DVD...

Ethdred
2007-04-10, 05:28 AM
Couldn't the mob Run after the wizard, as soon as he decided to take a standard action to cast a spell? The wizard would probably only be able to take one attack of opportunity, and might easily muff it.

Starting 60' away, the mob can cover 120' in a round, while the spell casting wizard can only cover 30'. If they surrounded the wizard before he flew up, that's a lot of attacks of opportunity to deal with.

Assuming the wizard wins initiative, and Fly is the first spell cast, the wizard would still have to deal with 1 round worth of crossbow bolts + thrown improvised weapons (remember, at least one is likely to hit).

Rnd 1: Wizard casts Fly, and moves 30' straight up.
Rnd 1: Everybody throws something at him/shoots at him.
Rnd 2: Wizard casts Prot. From Arrows, if still alive. etc...

OR
Rnd 1: Wizard casts Prot. From Arrows, and retreats 30'
Rnd 1: The crowd Runs, easily covering the 90' between them, surrounding the wizard (Wizard gets an AoO on one).
Rnd 2: Wizard, now surrounded, is in a real pickle.


You can't run (or charge) around a corner

Also, am I the only person to notice that his summoned creature appeared in the round he cast the spell, when it should have turned up the next round?

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-10, 05:40 AM
Stinking Cloud is now 3rd level(as opposed to 2nd in AD&D).

Considering none of the mob is over level 4, Colour Spray+Sleep pretty much wins.

h2doh
2007-04-10, 10:06 AM
do you want to kill the mob, incompacitate or flee?

in any case the easiest thing to do is duck around the corner, into a doorway/alleyway and minor image of the doorway/alleyway in front of you. after they run buy you can do anything you want. also then just cast invisibility and walk into your house, it is more defensible anyway.

ravenkith
2007-04-10, 10:12 AM
We're talking about a village, here, right?

In this situation, battlefield control could be immensely important. It depends on the layout.

Gut response?

Cast invisibility. Move in a random direction. Just don't be where you were. Low level npcs just cannot counter the advantage this spell gives you.

Then you cast summon swarm (it's PHB, core). Take the spiders.

These critters can't be hurt by normal weapons, and they have a very dangerous poison attack. Drop them in the center of the mob, and try not to laugh out loud, because at the moment you are still invisible, and can concentrate on maintaining the swarm until they a) eat the mob or b) get burned up by the torches.

If the swarm gets cooked, drop some summon Is to finish off the worst of the mob, then chase down the survivors with your wand of color spray, knock em out, and coup to your heart's content.

Entirely too easy.

MaxKaladin
2007-04-10, 10:23 AM
Heh, this has given me an idea for a villain.

There is a wizard who gets attacked by a mob on his way home from the market for, evidently, no reason other than that he's a wizard and the mob hates wizards and wants to kill him before he gets powerful enough to defend himself. Wizard survives the initial encounter but some of the mob members died in the process and now the rest of the town is out to arrest and execute him for murder despite his claims of self-defense. He has to flee town abandoning his house and most of his possessions. Alone and unprepared, he nearly dies in the wilderness several times trying to get somewhere that doesn't randomly kill wizards for being wizards. Eventually, he does get to safety and begins to rebuild his life, but has become scarred and bitter as a result of the experience. Fast forward a few years and many levels. Now the wizard is much higher level, much wealthier and much more powerful. He's also been nursing a grudge for years and has decided to devote considerable time and effort to making the both the surviving members of the mob and the authority figures who sided with them either miserable or dead.

The PCs come into this as adventurers who get to whatever town this wizard has targeted and discover bad things are happening to seemingly random people. The townsfolk beg the brave and powerful adventurers for help. Naturally, being adventurers, they agree and the adventure starts. They will probably try to find a connection between the victims and will eventually discover it. That's when they uncover the story of about the mob, but they probably get a twisted version that makes everyone in the town look completely innocent of any wrongdoing and the wizard guilty of heinous crimes before the mob ever gathered. Eventually, the PCs should uncover the truth and discover bits of history about this guy and eventually discover just what started all this. Just how the PCs feel and how they react once they have something resembling an accurate version of events will depend on the PCs in volved, but I'd imagine any wizards in the party would be feeling rather less inclined to help the townsfolk.

Thrawn183
2007-04-10, 11:55 AM
I think Bear's had it right, but I'll see if I can sum it up in a more general fashion (and throw in some opinions of my own):

1) Wizards have low hp and AC, a wizard's goal is to never be hit in the first place. This is why you see so much attention at higher levels towards spells like overland flight that prevent you from getting critted out of existance in the first round or so. In this case it probably corresponds to invisibility and summon (anything really).

2) OP was right about actions being the most valuable thing in combat. Spells like summon (anything) being full round actions are extremely useful, but only when you can prolong the combat through defensive measures (re: invisibility).

3) I don't want to start an argument, so I'm going to try and phrase this just right: A wizard that is part of an adventuring party doesn't need direct damage spells because the party's melee'r can do damage to the incapacitated for them. A wizard on his own? You can only run away to fight another day so many times. You need some way of finishing off large numbers of week opponents. I'm not saying this has to be direct damage spells, there are plenty of other ways (like being invisible and summoning monsters/swarms).

4) Does anyone know what the CR would have been on a mob like that? Methinks it would have been pretty high.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-10, 12:07 PM
The encounter calculator on d20srd.org makes it an overpowering encounter with 20 CR 1/3 monsters against 1 ECL 4 player. Its a CR 5 challenge against a level 1 party.

Aquillion
2007-04-10, 02:29 PM
CR calculations aren't so reliable with extremely large amounts of low-level stuff, though. A single Confusion, Fear etc can handle almost limitless amounts of weak monsters in its area, many of the symbols can affect limitless opponents, a narrow killspot with grease and a corner so you can't be shot at can kill massive numbers of pursuing mooks, and so forth... someone immune to crits with high AC can kill almost limitless numbers of commoners if they're just too weak to hit, while someone with high damage resistance can kill anything that can't pierce it with impunity.

When you have that many weak things, the results depend a lot more on tactics and the layout of the battle than CR--the PCs can win if they can force them to fight a few at a time or use a wide-area effect to hit all of them, while the mooks can still win if they can swarm and get a lot of crits or whatever.

goat
2007-04-10, 04:50 PM
So, if we think we can get a mage out of this, which other classes do you think would have a similar, or greater, chance of survival at this level in the same situation?

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 04:52 PM
So, if we think we can get a mage out of this, which other classes do you think would have a similar, or greater, chance of survival at level in the same situation?

A well armoured fighter with cleave?

Or would he be overwhelmed?

paddyfool
2007-04-10, 09:05 PM
Considering only core classes:

A monk, or light-armoured barbarian could just run away. Likewise a sorceror with expeditious retreat.

A rogue or ranger (or some bard or monk builds) might have a decent shot at spotting the mob before they saw him and sneaking away/hiding.

A cleric, paladin, rogue or bard might be able to wangle their way out through diplomacy.

Alternatively, a fighter, barbarian, or rogue could try to bluster their way out by means of intimidate.

Alternatively, a bard or rogue might be able to get out by means of disguise.

As for actually tackling the mob...

A druid, or a cleric with the plant domain, could do very well out of entangle + move out of sight + summoning.

A sorcerer with just the right spell selection could do it as previously described for a wizard.

Not sure about how the combat classes would fare on toughing it out... but I think they'd have a hard time. All it would take would be one successful grapple, followed by piling on, and they're history.

Stevenson
2007-04-10, 09:38 PM
What I didn't get was how this was supposed to prove that a wizard could destroy a mob without third level spells, by having him walk in armed with scrolls containing third level spells.

Cobra
2007-04-10, 10:19 PM
As a couple people noted, invisibility is pretty much the ultimate mook evader. Once the wizard is invisible, he can take as much time as he wants casting defensive spells and summons. Invisibility basically wins this fight for the wizard.

Any decently armored warrior could take out the mob pretty easily at 4th level. Most of the mob will miss, and he has enough HP to take the few 19's and 20's. He just needs to not allow himself to become completely surrounded.

Mob members will have a very hard time grappling a warrior as well. A 4th level warrior will have a grapple check of +7 or so vs. a commoners +0 or +1. They may occasionaly get a succesful grapple in for some subdual damage, but the warrior should be able to break free pretty easily. Grappling is probably the best bet for the mob, but they are definitely hosed if the warrior has combat reflexes.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-10, 10:25 PM
Colorspray and sleep ought to do it.

paddyfool
2007-04-10, 10:53 PM
OK, you make some good points, Cobra. I should really have thought about the numbers on this a little more.

Most fighter, paladin or cleric builds would have an AC that would need the enemies to threaten crits to hit them by this level. A ranger or rogue wouldn't, but should be able to sneak to a beneficial position before the fight starts and whittle down the opponents before they got close. A barbarian wouldn't have a very good AC, but might be able to take and deal a little more damage. A monk might be in real trouble, given a lower AC and less HP, but should be able to take advantage of his/her speed and manoeverability to pick and choose fights, while using flurry of blows to take down multiple opponents each round. A druid should be fine with using Entangle, plus hiding behind his animal companion and casting Summon Swarm or Summon Nature's Ally.

Overall, if it came to combat, probably a bard is the only class which I think would very probably go splat, and they should have a decent chance of avoiding conflict altogether with their personality based skills. Hopefully.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-10, 11:26 PM
If a Rogue can qualify for Elusive Target by Level 3, he can keep the opponents hitting each other till only one is left.

Monk can Flurry and knock out one opponent per attack(may need 2 attacks, depending on luck of rolls and Level/HP)

Barbarian could probably break any grapples.

Bard could sing them fascinated, but he needs to do it before they start. :/

Ponce
2007-04-10, 11:56 PM
Invisibility on himself. Improved Familiar for a Celestial Hawk Familiar. Mage armor, bull's strength, endurance on his familiar. The familiar ought to have DR 5/magic (effective HD total is 4, check out the celestial template), a decent amount of hit points, an AC of about 23, and a fly speed of 60ft. AB of +5, dealing 1d4 damage on a hit. Throw in a magic fang or greater magic fang, and you are dealing some serious damage fairly consistently (to these chumps, anyway).

Aquillion
2007-04-11, 02:06 AM
Bard could sing them fascinated, but he needs to do it before they start. :/No he couldn't. The bardic fascinate is severely limited. Note this line in the desc for their fascinate ability:


A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.A 4th-level bard could fascinate... two commoners. Out of twenty-one, was it?

Diplomacy would be a better bet, but they have to be willing to listen... Not likely with the situation as described.

...they could try magic, though. They're entitled to a single casting of a second-level spell if their charisma modifier is high enough to grant it (and it should be); invisibility is on their class list, so they could certainly escape if they have that.

Other spells that might do it (most would be more likely as a cleric strategy, who might actually have them prepared):

A Bard or Cleric could cast Calm Emotions, although its unlikely a cleric will have it prepared (they might if the city is in a wider state of unrest), and even less likely a Bard would have it.

Enthrall would do what you wanted fascinate to do, above, and could be used even while they're attacking. It's a pretty decent spell for a Bard, so they might even have it.

The Minor Image trick would work for a Bard, too.

Raum
2007-04-11, 07:56 AM
Mob members will have a very hard time grappling a warrior as well. A 4th level warrior will have a grapple check of +7 or so vs. a commoners +0 or +1. They may occasionaly get a succesful grapple in for some subdual damage, but the warrior should be able to break free pretty easily. Grappling is probably the best bet for the mob, but they are definitely hosed if the warrior has combat reflexes.The mob should be using the aid another option if they're grappling a single higher level warrior. Even a +6 from three people helping will make life much more difficult for the warrior and if he gets surrounded he'll have a potential 7 people assisting. At that point he's probably dead.

it doesn't really matter what class we're discussing, there are some similarities in tactics they'll need to use. They all need a method of either controlling the mob or of splitting the mob into bite size chunks, preferably while remaining relatively safe.

It may start with Grease or Invisibility for a wizard or using the terrain as a fighter (stand in door or corner to limit the number able to attack) but it's essentially the same type of tactics.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-11, 12:53 PM
Hey guys great discussion. I've been out of town for business and just got back to check on the ongoing nature of the debate.

I think it really is clear that I have no experience playing casters by the way this encounter went down. I was trying to get this put together in about 20 minutes and without any familiarity with the spell lists just had to go with the ones I could remember being effective in the past, and then missused the ones I had selected. Web, Grease and Stinking cloud would have been good choices to control the crowd but (and I think a picture will help with this) there was never really an opportunity to catch more than 5 of them in a single AoE, except perhaps in the first turn.

So everyone can get a good idea of how things went down I'll try to create and upload a map of the battlefield and how the battle brokedown graphically to make assumptions less prevalent. Being as there were 3 avenues of approach to the wizards position on the rooftop, (which was admittedly poor positioning on my part). I think I'm so used to playing non-caster classes that I think more two dimensionally and just totally overlook flight, even though its a scroll any wizard preparing to advance to 5th level would want to scribe.

Keep the ideas coming.

MaxKaladin
2007-04-11, 03:35 PM
Grease and Stinking cloud would have been good choices to control the crowd but (and I think a picture will help with this) there was never really an opportunity to catch more than 5 of them in a single AoE, except perhaps in the first turn.The first round is when I'd have used web. The minute they said "we're here to kill you", I'd throw the web and let them fry (from the torches some are carrying).

Also important is morale. Are they so determined to kill you that they'll absorb any casualties you can inflict or is there a point where they'll decide they've had enough and the survivors run for their pathetic, mage-hating lives?

Job
2007-04-11, 04:04 PM
Also important is morale. Are they so determined to kill you that they'll absorb any casualties you can inflict or is there a point where they'll decide they've had enough and the survivors run for their pathetic, mage-hating lives?

Interesting you should say that.

I was the other half of this experiment, controlling the actions of the mob.

I did take morale into account. If the aristocrat was ever to fall or if 50% or more were incapacitated it would require the mob to make a collective morale check. Neither condition was met however, though the aristocrat nearly bite it thanks to the summoned monster.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-11, 05:02 PM
And you're leaving out the key ingredient of a Swarm of Spiders to add into the web, once it has enmeshed the mob.

Summon Monster II can be useful, as well.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-04-11, 05:04 PM
I'd rather run away than to fight the mob single handedly. I don't think casters (save druids, perhaps?) got high enough Grapple modifier to withstand an angry mob!:smallfrown:

Thoughtbot360
2007-04-11, 08:55 PM
I'd rather run away than to fight the mob single handedly. I don't think casters (save druids, perhaps?) got high enough Grapple modifier to withstand an angry mob!:smallfrown:

They don't. Thats why he lost. He took some damage from crossbow bolts but then it was all subdual damage via grappling.

Still, though it would use 3 of 4 2nd level spells for a specialized wizard, the Invisibility + Leviate + Summon Swarm combo thats been mentioned before would remove almost all risk.


By the way, the line "Leave your pants" in the 5th level wizard scenario killed me.:smallbiggrin: