Roy VS Aragorn

[Lord]

Hi Lord here

Here are the Rules. A} D&D rules B} One family blade each {AKA Anderil, Greenhilt Blade} and any light or medium armor. C} No helpers are allowed with the exception of Animal companions, and the Summon Celia Talisman. D} No magical items as always.

Let the death match begin

[Amiria]

You mispelled Andúril.

[jindra34]

You mispelled Andúril.

Wow... What an odd first response...

[Fighteer]

Didn't my post in the Belkar vs. Boromir thread end this debate once and for all? Please, give it a rest. Or at least spell it correctly.

The systems aren't comparable. Period.

But if you give Aragorn Andúril, you have to give Roy his starmetal sword, since both are highly magical in nature. You also have to remember that Roy is a generic mid-level fighter who hasn't min-maxed his build, while Aragorn has had over a century of experience fighting the hordes of Mordor. It's not even close.

And, once again, you have to decide if you're talking about book Aragorn or movie Aragorn. The Aragorn of the movies was a much, much weaker character.

[Studoku]

Wait, so Roy gets Celia on his team?

Probably Roy

By the way, you said no magic items but the family blades are magic.

[Tolkien_Freak]

Technically, 87 years.
And Andúril isn't a magic sword.
But, Aragorn is far more experienced. Considering he's lived 87 years, he will probably win on account of being more experienced. And he's a Dúnadan, that has to count for something.

And thank you, Amiria, for the correction. (even though you're the Countess of Misspelling. Ironic, isn't it?)

[Fighteer]

Wait, so Roy gets Celia on his team?

Probably Roy

By the way, you said no magic items but the family blades are magic.
Doesn't work, since Aragorn is not a D&D ranger and thus does not have a companion, magical or otherwise, as a "class feature".

If you allow Roy to have Celia, you might as well give Aragorn Gandalf, and then it just becomes stupid.



Technically, 87 years.
And Andúril isn't a magic sword.
Thanks for the correction on Aragorn's age. I didn't have the book handy to look it up. And, as Jaya said, I'd be hard-pressed to figure out what you'd consider a magic sword, if Andúril doesn't qualify. It's right up there in terms of power with Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting.

Since Tolkien predates D&D, I find it hard to imagine him coming out with an appendix listing its stats... "Orcrist: +3 orc bane longsword" "Andúril: +5 holy greatsword"

Yeah, right.

[Jayabalard]

Bah, you double posted and I posted in the other one.

Narsil reforged is Andúril...

and even though Aragorn is a "ranger" he doesn't really fit into the mold of a D&D ranger very well.


Technically, 87 years.
And Andúril isn't a magic sword.
But, Aragorn is far more experienced. Considering he's lived 87 years, he will probably win on account of being more experienced. And he's a Dúnadan, that has to count for something.

And thank you, Amiria, for the correction. (even though you're the Countess of Misspelling. Ironic, isn't it?)
It's pretty clear that it's a magic sword even though it not specifically referred to as a "magic sword"

The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor. Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West


But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head

Tolkien confirms that this glow was not simply due to reflection or polishing in a private letter, where he describes Andúril as glowing with an "elvish light".

[Woot Spitum]

If you allow Roy to have Celia, you might as well give Aragorn Gandalf, and then it just becomes stupid.

I agree, let's leave team mates out of this.

[Tolkien_Freak]

Okay, never mind. I guess I just didn't read that closely.

You could actually do this if you really had a mind to.
-Determine Aragorn's stats (pretty high, he's 87, as I said)
-Determine Andúril's stats
-Read the Class and Level Geekery II thread for Roy's
-Play it

Though, somehow, I don't see the relationship between Roy and Aragorn. Reasons:
-Gandalf was the original party leader
-Aragorn is a Ranger
-Aragorn is a King
-Roy is not particularly important to anyone other than the OOTS

[Abacab]

And, once again, you have to decide if you're talking about book Aragorn or movie Aragorn. The Aragorn of the movies was a much, much weaker character.

You forgot about the cartoon Aragorn. You know, the weird version from the late 70's where the hobbits have strange noses and the orcs look cell-shaded? I'm not so sure about his abilities, but he looked like a Native-American from the Pocahantas movie.

But, that isn't as well known, so you shouldn't count it. It only leads to confusion.

[factotum]

Can I just ask, why would two characters who are presumably on the same side (you know, out to defeat Evil, save the known world, that sort of thing) be fighting each other anyway? If you were matching up heroes from one setting with villains from another I might see it (e.g. Aragorn versus Xykon), although even then I don't think you can make a meaningful comparison because of the vast difference in the universes in question.

[NeonRonin]

I agree with factotum, it doesn't work to have two babyfaces beating one another up(to use wrestling vernacular for a moment). You need a babyface and a heel to face each other, but I'm not really sure who in LotR counts as the opposite of Aragorn. The Witchking, maybe? Or one of the Uruk-hai?

Personally I'd prefer to see a smackdown between Vaarsuvius and Saruman.

[Mewtarthio]

There's a very interesting article floating around out there which compares DnD to real life. It holds that Aragorn is roughly fifth level, which represents the pinnacle of human acheivment.

[Innis Cabal]

well if 15th is the pinnicale o human achivment then adventueres that are epic should have DvR 1 at the least...though i think Aragorn, would be a very good fight

[Lizard Lord]

Can I just ask, why would two characters who are presumably on the same side (you know, out to defeat Evil, save the known world, that sort of thing) be fighting each other anyway? If you were matching up heroes from one setting with villains from another I might see it (e.g. Aragorn versus Xykon), although even then I don't think you can make a meaningful comparison because of the vast difference in the universes in question.

It could like those marvel vs. DC comics. They have to fight each other to save their own individual universes.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Problems of incompatible systems and why two heroes would be fighting each other aside, I'm giving this to the book version of Aragorn.

Why? He survived entire battles without a scratch. Early in the comic Roy was injured by goblins, and while he has leveled up since then and we haven't seen him battles the hobgoblins, I don't think he's increased in power enough to make any significant difference.

[Pronounceable]

Assuming we converted Aragorn into DnD (which IS rather pointless), my instinct tells me he'd be 16-18th level. And would beat Roy.

And movie Aragorn was (rant mode: on) broken. He beat up Ringwraiths with an effing torch! A TORCH! THE EFFING RINGWRAITHS! Bah, stupid Hollywood... (rant mode: off)

[Mewtarthio]

Assuming we converted Aragorn into DnD (which IS rather pointless), my instinct tells me he'd be 16-18th level. And would beat Roy.

And movie Aragorn was (rant mode: on) broken. He beat up Ringwraiths with an effing torch! A TORCH! THE EFFING RINGWRAITHS! Bah, stupid Hollywood... (rant mode: off)

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Where do you get 16-18 levels? That's like mythological range. Samson slaughtering the Phillistines with the jawbone of a donkey and Heracles dragging Cerebus around and all that.

[pendell]

Why would the heroes fight?

Simple. It's sparring, like Morpheus and Neo in the Matrix. The point is not to kill each other, but to show off their individual talents, test each other's mettle, and maybe learn a thing or two.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[zeratul]

Aragorn, d'uh. Roy is cool and all, but aragorn would pown him.

[Glarx]

I'm sorry, but obviously the answer is DARTH VADER!

"Roy... I am... your father!" (Takes off his helmet, to reveal Eugene)

"Dad?! You cut off my effing HAND! MY HAND!"

"Well, you didn't really kill Xykon. We're even."

"WHAT?"

Ah yes. Star Wars.

Now, as for the actual topic, I'm afraid that Aragorn wins the battle by default. Roy hasn't achieved enough levels, although Roy *is* a king. The King of Nowhere (I think. I don't care to go back and verify).

And Aragorn enslaved a whole race of Oathbreakers. Roy? He has a cobbled together assortment of... fellows. The hobbits (Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pipin) are better at cohesive fighting.

But that's a story for a different day.

[Jazzvader]

It could like those marvel vs. DC comics. They have to fight each other to save their own individual universes.

I think that's happened at least once before the Amalgam merge and unmerge

[Bag_of_Holding]

I'm in favour of Roy's victory.

[Mummy king]

I think that's happened at least once before the Amalgam merge and unmerge

Yay batwolverine!

I just found it funny for some reason, y'know, batman and wolverine... Batman... Wolverine... batwolverine... priceless.

Anyway, back to the actual fight *imagines*

Meh, Aragorn would win, but it would be a moral victory for Roy.

[Fighteer]

Now, as for the actual topic, I'm afraid that Aragorn wins the battle by default. Roy hasn't achieved enough levels, although Roy *is* a king. The King of Nowhere (I think. I don't care to go back and verify).

And Aragorn enslaved a whole race of Oathbreakers. Roy? He has a cobbled together assortment of... fellows. The hobbits (Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pipin) are better at cohesive fighting.

But that's a story for a different day.
I'm going to assume you're being ironic here, but just in case...

a) Roy is not the King of Nowhere.
b) Aragorn is, in terms of power relative to others in his world, far stronger than Roy. But there is no way to directly compare the two based on stats.
c) Aragorn did not "enslave" the oathbreakers. They were bound by Isildur's curse way back at the end of the Second Age to serve his heirs. Aragorn simply called in the oath. Don't get the movie confused with the book.
d) The hobbits as a cohesive fighting force? Can I have what you're smoking? They didn't actually mature as a team until they returned to the Shire, and that was against low level ruffians and deserters from Saruman's forces at Isengard. They started out as helpless as any other level 1 commoners. I'm not trying to impugn their bravery; they were incredibly courageous throughout the whole story. But bravery is a poor substitute for a high BAB.

Now, if you took the entire Fellowship and pitted it against OotS, you'd have a pretty nasty fight. In terms of direct correspondence, you have Aragorn:Roy, Legolas:Haley, Gandalf:Vaarsuvius, Gimli:Durkon (because they are both dwarves, not because of their class), and Boromir:Belkar (the only melee combination left). This leaves Elan to face the hobbits. :smallbiggrin:

[LCR]

Rocks fall from the sky, Roy dies. That isn't even a question. Aragorn would wipe the floor with Roy's sticky remains.

Edit: Elan's to face the hobbits? He's doomed ...

[Jayabalard]

Edit: Elan's to face the hobbits? He's doomed ...I tend to envision them deciding to have tea instead of fighting.

[idioscosmos]

Um...no-one seems to take into account Roy's human, and Aragorn...isn't. He's Dunedain - taller, stronger, wiser than "normal" men, and of a bloodline that includes elves (pointedly NOT D&D elves - almost angelic supernatural beings) AND Maia (angels/lesser gods) (Thingol & Melian the Mia had Luthien who married Beren and had Dior who married Nimloth who had Elwing who married Earendil and had Elros and Elrond and from Elros came the kings of Numenor, Arnor, the Cheiftains of the Dunedain, and then Aragorn, son of Arathorn) - I guess you'd be better off considering Aragorn an Aasimar than a Human....

[Mewtarthio]

Either way, Roy is in DnD. DnD is several orders of magnitude more powerful than LotR. It'd be like siccing Beowulf on a Super Star Destroyer.

[Jayabalard]

Either way, Roy is in DnD. DnD is several orders of magnitude more powerful than LotR. It'd be like siccing Beowulf on a Super Star Destroyer.it's an interesting claim, but it's kind of hard to back up. There's not enough details in the fight descriptions to really tell how people in the LotR world stack up to mid level people in D&D.

[Demented]

As far as D&D is concerned, Aragorn is a level 6 Fighter with an anomalous +48 bonus to AC.

As far as LotR is concerned, Roy is a steam train with a greatsword.

[archon_huskie]

And Aragorn enslaved a whole race of Oathbreakers. Roy? He has a cobbled together assortment of... fellows. The hobbits (Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pipin) are better at cohesive fighting.

But that's a story for a different day.

Aragorn is able to summon the Oathbreakers with Andúril. But the Oathbreakers are undead so Roy can harm them with his ancestral blade.

[sun_tzu]

D&D characters become flat-out superhuman as they rise in levels (one of the main reasons I dislike D20 Modern). As a medium-level fighter, Roy could survive getting stabbed with dozens of knives; his attack power's quite impressive, too.
Aragorn...Is impressive, but is still a book character who couldn't survive what most members of the OOTS could live through.
I suspect Roy takes this, due to the uberness of D&D.

[Gez]

As a medium-level fighter, Roy could survive getting stabbed with dozens of knives; his attack power's quite impressive, too.


Boromir survived quite a while being stabbed with dozens of arrows, even though his hit points eventually went negative.

[Demented]

Dozens?

I don't recall any of that being mentioned in the book.

[Tolkien_Freak]

1. When is Roy stabbed with dozens of knives?

2. Boromir is shot with 3 arrows, no matter how big they were.

[Wardog]

Um...no-one seems to take into account Roy's human, and Aragorn...isn't. He's Dunedain - taller, stronger, wiser than "normal" men, and of a bloodline that includes elves (pointedly NOT D&D elves - almost angelic supernatural beings) AND Maia (angels/lesser gods) (Thingol & Melian the Mia had Luthien who married Beren and had Dior who married Nimloth who had Elwing who married Earendil and had Elros and Elrond and from Elros came the kings of Numenor, Arnor, the Cheiftains of the Dunedain, and then Aragorn, son of Arathorn) - I guess you'd be better off considering Aragorn an Aasimar than a Human....

Aragorn's elvish ancestry is pretty remote and dilute though. Even more so for his Maia ancestry. I'm not sure what bonuses the Numenorean subrace would get in D&D; +2 to all attributes might be reasonable, would be considered very powerful as a racial bonus in D&D terms (and so probably giving a significant ECL adjustment), and still wouldn't help much against Roy's 8-10 level advantage.


That said - this is assuming that Roy is about lvl 14 (as determined by the comic), and Aragorn is about lvl 5, based on that other guy's article.

Which seemed perfectly reasonably argued, but would suggest Roy is some sort of super-human, Heracles-type hero. Which I don't think is supported by what he does in the comic. Which in turn suggests that the Giant is working by different assumptions as to what levels mean, and so he might well stat Aragorn as a much higher level character.

[Krytha]

I would say Aragorn, but he doesn't translate to D+D very well. He's just uber (but with no apparent powers) and Roy is a pretty average dude who has accumulated a bunch of levels. THEYRE BACKWARDS!

What does BAB mean? And what would you say the CRs on the Nazgul are. Cuz then maybe you could match Roy up with the Nazgul and if he comes out on top, then it would be fair to say the fight would be about even.

[Demented]

It's probably easier to measure up the CRs of lower characters. The average soldiers being level 1-2 Warriors, the average person a level 1 Commoner.

Though, beyond that it's hard to say, since I don't remember the LotR books very well.
The Balor was easily CR 20+, that much is easy to tell.
Orcs can't be that high, CR 1-2
Uruks CR 3-4
Trolls CR... 7-9?
Nazgul could be anything... They were waved off by a torch, but nobody seems to want to fight them otherwise. 'Course, their weapons and special abilities are imba, so that could raise an otherwise meager CR.

OOTSworld is too high-powered to compare to Tolkien's world, though it would probably compare better if you cut the levels in half. Thus you would have Roy (level 7 Human Fighter) versus Aragorn (level 6 Numenorean? Fighter/Rogue).

[Spiky]

And movie Aragorn was (rant mode: on) broken. He beat up Ringwraiths with an effing torch! A TORCH! THE EFFING RINGWRAITHS! Bah, stupid Hollywood... (rant mode: off)
If you are going to rant about movies destroying books, perhaps you should pick an instance where the movie actually differed from the book. Unless you mean the combo of one sword and one torch in the flick was atrociously different from the two torches mentioned in print. Horrific, clearly.

[tfp]

It's probably easier to measure up the CRs of lower characters. The average soldiers being level 1-2 Warriors, the average person a level 1 Commoner.

Though, beyond that it's hard to say, since I don't remember the LotR books very well.
The Balor was easily CR 20+, that much is easy to tell.
Orcs can't be that high, CR 1-2
Uruks CR 3-4
Trolls CR... 7-9?
Nazgul could be anything... They were waved off by a torch, but nobody seems to want to fight them otherwise. 'Course, their weapons and special abilities are imba, so that could raise an otherwise meager CR.

OOTSworld is too high-powered to compare to Tolkien's world, though it would probably compare better if you cut the levels in half. Thus you would have Roy (level 7 Human Fighter) versus Aragorn (level 6 Numenorean? Fighter/Rogue).

I'm not sure if anyone has played MERPS but that was a gaming system used to translate the Tolkien's world into an RPG. From what I have seen/experienced most things in there are hard to kill because they have huge hit points, even at lower level. I can not say the same thing for goblins or orcs in DnD. Most of the creatures in MERPS are they are pretty hard to hit as well. To make up for that the crit system is just sick. The damage system is also pretty extreme if someone gets a good hit in as well.

Frankly it just does not translate well from the movie/book/MERPS to ADnD.

Well that and Tolkien's world is very low magic vs OOTS.

[Fighteer]

1. When is Roy stabbed with dozens of knives?

2. Boromir is shot with 3 arrows, no matter how big they were.
We're not discussing the movie versions of the characters, or at least those aren't the "official" versions. While the book doesn't actually count the number of arrows he was shot with, the reader is left with the impression that it was a lot more than three. I'll have to go back and check the passage this weekend, but I mentally pictured a strong resemblance between Boromir and a pincushion.


If you are going to rant about movies destroying books, perhaps you should pick an instance where the movie actually differed from the book. Unless you mean the combo of one sword and one torch in the flick was atrociously different from the two torches mentioned in print. Horrific, clearly.
The only real problem I have with that sequence is that Aragorn wasn't actually in possession of a working sword at that point in the story. The shards of Narsil were in his scabbard, not at Rivendell. But he did drive off the Ringwraiths with flame. There are much worse inconsistencies if you're being nitpicky, such as the complete change in the time sequence of Andúril (it was reforged at Rivendell and given to Aragorn when the Fellowship set off on the quest, not delivered by Elrond at Dunharrow).

Moreover, Aragorn is portrayed as a much weaker moral character in the movies. At no point in the books is he consumed with self-doubt to the point of being unable to lead.

[Wardog]

Moreover, Aragorn is portrayed as a much weaker moral character in the movies. At no point in the books is he consumed with self-doubt to the point of being unable to lead.

He got off lightly compared to Theoden.

In the book, Theoden (once cured) wanted to go straight out and fight. They only went to Helm's Deep because on route to the battle, the encountered the defeated remnants of the army they were intending to reinforce, and realised they were up against a tougher enemy than they thought.

And many of the weak (or rash) suggestions made by Theoden in the film were actually made by other people in the book, and criticised by Theoden. (The comment about Helm's Deep being like a rock upon which their enemies would break like water was actually made by Gimli, when describing what it could be, if he had a team of dwarven masons to work on it, and plenty of time to do so).

IMO, Frodo was also made into a much weaker, self-doubting character than he was in the books.


As for Boromir:

When Aragron found him (Chapter 1, "The departure of Boromir"):


He was sitting with his back to a great tree, as if he was resting. But Aragorn saw that he was pierced with many black-feathered arrows; his sword was still in his hand, but it was broken near the hilt; his horn cloven in two was at his side. Many Orcs lay slain, piled all about him and at his feet.


From the Hobbits' perspective (Chapter 3, "The Uruk-Hai")


Then Boromir had come leaping through the trees. He had made them fight. He slew many of them, and the rest fled. But they had not gone far on the way back when they were attacked again, by a hundred Orcs at least, some of them very large, and the shot a rain of arrows: always at Boromir. Boromir had blown his great horn till the woods rang, and at first the Orcs had been dismayed and had drawn back; but when no answer but the echos came back, they had attacked more fiercly than ever. Pippin did not remember much more. His last memory was of Boromir leaning against a tree, plucking out an arrow; then darkness fell suddenly."

So we can say that Boromir was hit by "many" arrows. Unfortunately, there is no indication of how long (if at all) he kept fighting after being shot.

[SolkaTruesilver]

If you don't like the d20 setting (and DnD, for that matters) where mid-level adventurers become surhuman, try Warhammer.

At the beggining of an adventure, if your party face orcs 1:1, you're in deep trouble

When you are high-level, if your party face orcs 1:2, you're in deep trouble

The whole combat system is based on parry/dodge the hits, and DR based on natural toughness/armor. However, when you don't have anymore "Wound Point" (equivalent of hit points.. but a really badass character will have a max of about 25 Wound Point), you begin the dis-arming (and I don't mean loosing weapons).

consider it.. each basic weapon (sword, axe, for example) do 1d10+StrenghBonus damage. You get down to 0 Wound pretty fast when you start at 10...

Battles are ugly. Let's translate Aragorn and Roy into WarhammerFRP, and then have them duel :)

Conclusion: When two people fight, if you want a fair fight, choose a neutral ground

[Iry]

Despite being apart of an organization called the "Rangers", Aragorn would roughly translate into a D&D Paladin (or variant paladin). We would probable give him the +0 Level Adjustment version of the Aasimar and consider it only mildly fudging at worst.

In either situation, he likely has a prestige class which allows him to recieve his Charisma bonus to Armor Class, and possibly to Damage. I could easily see him with Combat Expertise, Robilar's Gambit and maybe even Improved Combat Expertise.

[Mewtarthio]

For comparison: Observe Belkar in today's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)strip. Do you suppose Aragorn could do that?

[Fighteer]

For comparison: Observe Belkar in today's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)strip. Do you suppose Aragorn could do that?
Well, if you go by the movies, Aragorn single-handedly defeated a good twenty or thirty orcs at a time without taking a single wound. He also wasn't wearing anything heavier than light armor at the time, and didn't have a shield.

The books don't actually count kills (except for the humorous competition between Gimli and Legolas), but Aragorn and his allies do cut their way through legions of badguys without taking so much as a scratch.

[Lord of the Helms]

For comparison: Observe Belkar in today's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)strip. Do you suppose Aragorn could do that?

Considering the account of the battle of the Pelennor fields, enemies as lowly as hobgoblins would rarely even dare to face Aragorn at all. Hence why he not only survived that battle in spite of going into the midst of combat, but did not even get wounded at all.

Anyhow, I agree you cannot compare the two systems. The only beings in LotR that could conceivably challenge a D&D character of level 13+ are probably various Maiar like Gandalf, the Balrog or Sauron, possibly the Ents, and extremely powerful spawns of Morgoth such as dragons. This is of course barring the use of the Valar or First-Age uber-powered protagonists like the Noldor lords Feanor (who was confirmed by Manwe to be one third as strong as the most powerful and second strongest being on the entirety of Arda) and Fingolfin (who gave said being a tough fight, though in fairness Morgoth was already considerably weakened by then); the only other instance of elven (and one human) warriors confronting challenges as powerful as Balrogs to any success, the Battle of Gondolin, was afaik only fully detailed in the non-canon Forgotten Tales and never brought quite into "mainstream" Tolkien continuity, so remains ambivalent.

This is before even bringing in obvious differences that cannot really be translated at all (it takes one well-placed arrow or sword thrust to slay even the strongest of dragons in Tolkien-land, much like almost any warrior)

[Finwe]

In D&D, when a character is "hit" is does not mean that the weapon hits them directly and pierces their flesh/breaks their bones. Hit points represent luck, fate, combat experience, glancing blows and a whole slew of other things in addition to physical toughness. That's why the coup de grace is so powerful: if every hit from a dagger was a stab in the stomach or a slit throat, people wouldn't survive nearly as long in combat. Roy could not survive 40 daggers to the chest, let alone two or three.

[Tiako]

One way to solve this is by the knowledge that original hero always trumps imitator hero, unless the imitator hero is from a vastly superior canon than the original hero (For example, John Wayne trumps all previous Western heroes). Thus, Hector trumps Aeneas (Although Aeneas is in the Iliad, he isn't in for long enough for his character to gain a distinct personality, so his Aeneid personality is far closer to Hector), Aeneas trumps Aragorn, as does Beowulf, and Lord of the Rings trumps Dungeons and Dragons. Thus, the greatest human swordsman in Lord of the Rings could crush a thirteenth level swordsman in Dungeons and Dragons.

Of course, Achilles could easily destroy the entire Hobgoblin horde, easily dispatch Xykon and his minion, and then single handily sack Azure City, which is why I wish I could build a Homeric warrior.


The only beings in LotR that could conceivably challenge a D&D character of level 13+ are probably various Maiar like Gandalf, the Balrog or Sauron, possibly the Ents, and extremely powerful spawns of Morgoth such as dragons.
Where do you get that idea?


But if you give Aragorn Andúril
Actually, the destruction of the sword destroyed all the magic in it.

[Fighteer]

Actually, the destruction of the sword destroyed all the magic in it.
Narsil was destroyed in the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. It was reforged by the elves in Imladris (Rivendell) after the Council of Elrond, named Andúril by Aragorn, and imbued with all of its old power plus some.

There is no reference in any of Tolkien's works to any harm being done to Andúril.

[KurenaiYami]

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Where do you get 16-18 levels? That's like mythological range. Samson slaughtering the Phillistines with the jawbone of a donkey and Heracles dragging Cerebus around and all that.

Though the link is interesting, it doesn't explain everything.

The shining example I have trouble justifying is the fact that Legolas took down a freaking mumakil. Either Legolas is far more powerful than Aragorn, or the mumakil is only CR 1 or so, in which case they should not have been as much of a threat as they were to the soldiers they fought.

Unless, of course, the mumakil thing didn't happen in the book. I only read completely through the Fellowship of the Ring myself.

[Fighteer]

Though the link is interesting, it doesn't explain everything.

The shining example I have trouble justifying is the fact that Legolas took down a freaking mumakil. Either Legolas is far more powerful than Aragorn, or the mumakil is only CR 1 or so, in which case they should not have been as much of a threat as they were to the soldiers they fought.

Unless, of course, the mumakil thing didn't happen in the book. I only read completely through the Fellowship of the Ring myself.
The Múmakil scenes in the LotR movies are wholly fictional. The books mention their presence on the battlefield, and say that the riders of Rohan were unable to attack because their horses were frightened. Thus, "the great monsters were unfought, and stood like towers of defence, and the Haradrim rallied about them." There are also references to the beasts being brought down by massed archer fire. But there are no actual scenes of the main characters battling them.

It's funny, because there were more than enough dramatic scenes in the book without Peter Jackson needing to invent filler material that didn't actually take place (and in some cases baldly contradicts the book). I refer particularly to the battle with the worg riders between Edoras and Helm's Deep (resulting in Aragorn's cheesy river floating scene) and the combat between the Múmakil and the Rohirrim. I was also PO'ed that he had the forces of Mordor break into Minas Tirith and Gandalf get so thoroughly outclassed by the Witch King. The whole idea was supposed to be that he and Gandalf were evenly matched, but that he had the power of prophecy on his side, stating that no "man" would kill him. Making him so much more powerful makes his defeat by Eowyn and Merry less believable, not more.

[Tiako]

There is no reference in any of Tolkien's works to any harm being done to Andúril.
I meant when Narsil was destroyed. And I doubt that the Rivendell elves would be able to touch the original sword, because it was forged in the First Age. However, I will grant that I was mistaken when I said that Anduril only had symbolic powers. It's been a while since I last read the books.


http://www.thealexandrian.net/creati...librating.html (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)
Interesting. The problem with that site is that it applies real world comparisons to a freaking game, which is really very, very stupid.


At no point in the books is he consumed with self-doubt to the point of being unable to lead.
I don't have the passage in front of me, but at one point he says "All my judgements since Moria have been in error", or something to that effect.


I was also PO'ed that he had the forces of Mordor break into Minas Tirith and Gandalf get so thoroughly outclassed by the Witch King.
Well, he took that out of the theatrical version.

As for the Warg scene, I was nonplussed at first, but it is well enough done that I didn't mind.

[Fighteer]

I meant when Narsil was destroyed. And I doubt that the Rivendell elves would be able to touch the original sword, because it was forged in the First Age. However, I will grant that I was mistaken when I said that Anduril only had symbolic powers. It's been a while since I last read the books.
This was discussed already, earlier in this thread or another related one. As for how the elves could do it, remember that one of Tolkien's fundamental concepts about magic was that it is the kind of thing that becomes most powerful and effective when you store it up over a long period of time to use when it's really needed.

At Imladris (and Lothlórien) were the last remnants of the Eldar of the First Age, and their powers, though diminished, were not wholly gone. There is no reason to believe that they couldn't bend all their power to restore the original glory of Narsil for this one monumental task.

Lastly (and I apologize for being so long-winded), I don't recall any specific mention of Narsil's origin as an elf-forged blade of the First Age. It was brought from the wreck of Númenor by Elendil, but other than being the weapon of one of the mightiest heroes of the second age, it doesn't seem to have any other special mention. If it was forged by the Númenoreans (with the Elvish aid they had at the beginning, of course), then it would be a powerful weapon but nothing the Eldar were unused to dealing with.


I don't have the passage in front of me, but at one point he says "All my judgements since Moria have been in error", or something to that effect.
All of the main characters had arcs in the novels, going from hope to despair and back again. My point isn't that Aragorn never felt fear or despair, but that he wasn't in a constant state of moral crisis from the start. There was never any doubt that he would take up the kingship of Men, nor that he would marry Arwen should he succeed in vanquishing Sauron. In fact, that was the deal he made with Elrond in the first place: that no less than the Lord of Arnor and Gondor would wed Arwen Undómiel.

Elrond's little jealous father act is another one of those major departures from the book that makes me grind my teeth, although I will stipulate that it was necessary to give Arwen a bit more screen time than she got in the books to make her romance with Aragorn more dramatic. Tolkien threw her in as a bit of an afterthought.

[Tiako]

I don't recall any specific mention of Narsil's origin as an elf-forged blade of the First Age.
I'll check my little library, but I'm reasonably sure it was. Maybe Unfinished Tales has the answer.


My point isn't that Aragorn never felt fear or despair, but that he wasn't in a constant state of moral crisis from the start.
Ah, my bad.


Where do you get 16-18 levels? That's like mythological range. Samson slaughtering the Phillistines with the jawbone of a donkey and Heracles dragging Cerebus around and all that.
I forgot to mention this. You clearly underestimate Hercules. Hercules diverted a river in one night. He beat up Death itself at one point. He lifted the world on his shoulders. If Roy was anywhere near Hercules (Even within three levels), then he wouldn't be jumping on Xykon's dragon thing, he would lift up Azure Tower itself, beat Xykon mercilessly with it, and then kill his minions by hitting the ground so hard he ruptures a hole in the earth.

But then again, comparing a combat system so far removed from realty as D&D to any other cannon is silly if done with anything approaching rational thought. The winner must be determined by convoluted logic and determination of who is cooler.

[Fighteer]

I'll check my little library, but I'm reasonably sure it was. Maybe Unfinished Tales has the answer.
I'll be curious to see what you find. I never managed to read all the way through Unfinished Tales; 95% of my Tolkien knowledge comes from LotR and the Silmarillion (and The Hobbit, of course). Although I've read each many, many times, I still sometimes need to go back to them for pertinent details. :-)

[Spiky]

Moreover, Aragorn is portrayed as a much weaker moral character in the movies. At no point in the books is he consumed with self-doubt to the point of being unable to lead.
This is my greatest problem with the movies, also. Although I would simply call it strength. His morality is never in question, IMO. The most flagrant is the entire Path of the Dead thread. First Gandalf has to tell him to go, and then he almost gets down on his knees begging the dead to follow him. The book is far superior in this regard.

PJ almost made up for that with the palantir scene in the EE, but even there he was "forced" into his own strength. It's almost like he wanted to make Aragorn a Greek hero, where fighting hubris or other internal foes is the real fight.

[Demented]

I forgot to mention this. You clearly underestimate Hercules. Hercules diverted a river in one night. He beat up Death itself at one point. He lifted the world on his shoulders. If Roy was anywhere near Hercules (Even within three levels), then he wouldn't be jumping on Xykon's dragon thing, he would lift up Azure Tower itself, beat Xykon mercilessly with it, and then kill his minions by hitting the ground so hard he ruptures a hole in the earth.

Of course, Hercules and similar mythological heroes were children of Gods, so it sort of fits.

[Caledonian]

In D&D, when a character is "hit" is does not mean that the weapon hits them directly and pierces their flesh/breaks their bones.

Oh, really? Then explain how poisoned weapons work. How does a near miss affect a character with a poison that needs to be introduced into the body to function?

[Mewtarthio]

Interesting. The problem with that site is that it applies real world comparisons to a freaking game, which is really very, very stupid.

It's not talking about realism: It's just trying to compare the power of DnD characters to that of real-world people. Nothing's wrong with superheroes in heroic fantasy. My point was that level 10+ in DnD equates to nigh-godlike powers relative to our world, so that we can then compare our world to Aragorn and determine if he's anywhere near level 10.


I forgot to mention this. You clearly underestimate Hercules. Hercules diverted a river in one night. He beat up Death itself at one point. He lifted the world on his shoulders. If Roy was anywhere near Hercules (Even within three levels), then he wouldn't be jumping on Xykon's dragon thing, he would lift up Azure Tower itself, beat Xykon mercilessly with it, and then kill his minions by hitting the ground so hard he ruptures a hole in the earth.

Okay, I'll grant you that Heracles is probably epic-level. Still, 16-18 levels is far above what Aragorn could pull off.

[EloquentRune]

With the Roy vs. Aragorn question... If both of them had their recrafted swords, and lovely ladies waiting for them... I'd say Roy. Even if in the long run he would die of old age quicker.

[Fighteer]

Oh, really? Then explain how poisoned weapons work. How does a near miss affect a character with a poison that needs to be introduced into the body to function?
Scratches and nicks. Bruises that don't break bones. A stab that is deflected from hitting a vital organ. The explanation is in the manuals if you read them.

Not that it matters. We all know that the D&D system is not intended to be a realistic depiction of combat.

[Jayabalard]

Still, 16-18 levels is far above what Aragorn could pull off.Nah, Aragorn is just in a campaign using VP/WP, and lowered WBL.


I don't recall any specific mention of Narsil's origin as an elf-forged blade of the First Age. It was brought from the wreck of Númenor by Elendil, but other than being the weapon of one of the mightiest heroes of the second age, it doesn't seem to have any other special mention. If it was forged by the Númenoreans (with the Elvish aid they had at the beginning, of course), then it would be a powerful weapon but nothing the Eldar were unused to dealing with.I'm not sure exactly what all the Wikipedia article on Narsil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narsil) uses as references; the claim is there, both in the article and in the discussion page, that it was forged by Telchar. Perhaps it's in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien (the last reference for that article)

[Fighteer]

I'm not sure exactly what all the Wikipedia article on Narsil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narsil) uses as references; the claim is there, both in the article and in the discussion page, that it was forged by Telchar. Perhaps it's in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien (the last reference for that article)
The article claims that the precise wording of the runes on the blade were invented by the filmmakers of LotR; Tolkien never depicted them in any of his works. Thus, the "Telchar of Nogrod made me" is highly speculative without an actual reference from the author. Too bad I never did read through all of the ancillary LotR books aside from the Silmarillion.

[Reinboom]

I think an easier way to do this would be first to take a common equal of the two.
Orcs to Orcs
Commoners to Commoners
etc.
Then directly compare the power of each to the other. How well can one of one system do against this common and how well can the other do. From here, try to get an equivalent using a similar class. For example, how well can a level 18 fighter do against an army of orcs?
Also, before the actual equivalents can be made, the alternate rules of "if LotR used D&D" need to be discovered. For example, clearly the 1 = -10 to attack roll, 20 = +10 to attack roll system was used based on the ability to come out completely unscathed in LotR. So first we must find the equivalent using all noted alt rules. From here, compare it by removing away the alt rules or giving the rules to the other. and so on and so forth.

I guess the first question would be, what are all the alt rules that LotR would use to be able to emulate what LotR portrays? Trying to use as much WotC legal alt (unearthed arcana included but without gestalt for simplicity) and no homebrew options/interpretations.

[Jayabalard]

The article claims that the precise wording of the runes on the blade were invented by the filmmakers of LotR; Tolkien never depicted them in any of his works. Thus, the "Telchar of Nogrod made me" is highly speculative without an actual reference from the author. Too bad I never did read through all of the ancillary LotR books aside from the Silmarillion.just to be clear: The claim of Narsil's making is also in the Literature section of that article. While it's not explicitly referenced, that means that it appears in some piece of Tolkien's writing (if it's not just bad data thrown in the wrong section); based on the references listed, I'd guess it's in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien if it's not in The Silmarillion or one of the appendices of the red book.

The reference to the runes that you bring up is in the Adaptation section of the article, and of course that's going to be non-canon.

actually, there's another pertinent wikipedia article, the Weapons of Middle Earth article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Middle-earth):

* Narsil: Red and White Flame[36] (Sindarin) See Also: Andúril

The sword of King Elendil of the Dúnedain. It was forged during the First Age by the Dwarf Telchar, making it a cousin to the blade Angrist which cut a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth. The name contains the elements nar "fire" and thil "white light", referring to the Sun and Moon. Elendil used Narsil in the Siege of Barad-dûr and, being slain in combat with Sauron, fell over it and broke it. His son Isildur took it up and used its shard to cut the One Ring from the hand of Sauron. Isildur took the shards home with him. After Isildur was killed in 2 T.A., the shards were rescued by Ohtar, esquire of Isildur. He took them to Rivendell, where Isildur's youngest son Valandil was fostered. The Shards of Narsil were one of the heirlooms of the Kings of Arnor, and after the Northern Kingdom was destroyed they remained an heirloom of the Rangers of the North, although it was not reforged until the War of the Ring.[37]

according to that the information is taken from:
36: The Return of the King. p. 438; Further information in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien
37: The Silmarillion, pp. 294-5, 343; Unfinished Tales, pp. 272, 275; The Fellowship of the Ring, pp. 256-7; The Return of the King, p. 123