Come At Me Bro! A thread asking for the strongest monsters in all of 3.5

[thecrimsondawn]

So I am working on making a few very strong builds. Many of you im sure have seen me making quite a few threads as of late.

Ive come to realize however that I am building off of the delicate balance that most classes at least attempt to share for balance reasons, and not related very well at all to the CR of the monsters in the many MM books.

So I decided that it would be a better idea to see just what the strongest monsters in the game can do. What there attacks and saves are like, special ability's, and hp. All the good stuff so I can get even better at building.

From what one DM told me a while back is that the far realm has monsters that would make even gods cower in fear, but ive never read anything outside of a single PRC class that mentions anything of that plane.

So what are some of the biggest, most nasty, hard-core, party wiping beasts you are aware of?

Last epic game we played we literally threw the Tarrasque into outer space and nailed it to the sky as we where unable to "kill" it, so I need stuff thats beyond that.

:)

[Platymus Pus]

A lemur.
I'm serious here.

[thecrimsondawn]

A lemur.
I'm serious here.

Hmm, a CR of 1, so lets say a mob of 40 of them at once, with flanking bonuses, 2 claw attacks basic at +2 each, loads of resists and strong immunity's

They are nasty, without a doubt, but I need MORE!! :D

[Eldan]

A god. They can see things that will happen weeks ahead with perfect accuracy, they get access to epic stuff like epic magic, and divine abilities, amongst other things, include the ability to kill anything anywhere with no save.

[kellbyb]

I'm gonna vote for the solar angel.

[bjoern]

A level 1000 human wizard.

Seriously though, there's always a bigger fish.

[sideswipe]

just leaving this here as a guide to the horror you can bestow on your players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29)

[Silva Stormrage]

just leaving this here as a guide to the horror you can bestow on your players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29)

Darn you beat me to it this time :smalltongue:

Also for the most difficult monsters, usually you can abuse templates in some way to make a creature stronger than what is presented.

For example a Feral Spellwarped Kython Broodling has AC of about 28 strength of about 24, 4 attacks with two having a high dc con poison, spell resistance and fast healing. And is CR 2. It would slaughter pretty much any level 2 fighter.

The Vampire Template is also fairly absurd or some of the ones that grant SLA's by HD and then slap them on some massively HD inflated creature. You can get things like CL 30 Blasphemies at CR 8 with half fiend and the like.

[Blackhawk748]

Half farspawn housecats. Attacking your sanity and your mind.

But ya that thread should tell you of many of the more horrifying beasties.

[Zaq]

Strongest for their level, or strongest period? Because if it's strongest for their level, I have to give it to the malaugrym, from Monsters of Faerun. At-will Shapechange, CL 20, at CR 4.

Sure, stuff from Elder Evils or the Epic Level Handbook is going to be stronger, but nothing at CR 4 even comes close to the power of the malaugrym.

[Werephilosopher]

Great wyrm time dragon. On the more reasonable side of things, garngraths are pretty nasty.

[thecrimsondawn]

Solar Angel is bad ass, I like it, but is there an evil version, or would I need to convert it?

Gods are killable, but just have a load of BS ability's, and more often then not, the fight to GET to the god is the hard part, as most of the time they have an army of there alignment celestial or demons all fighting at once.

Dragons have a major flaw - each one focuses on one element or style, and then uses basic combat tactics such as flying, or attacking an insane number of times with natural attacks. Using energy immunity + very high ac can shut "most" dragons down.
Time dragon itself fits the bill of what I am looking for tho, as its attacks are force, and aging, and has psy ability's instead of arcane. I also dont see a save on that aura making it just about the most op skill ever. This one is going on the top of the list, thanks :)

@Zaq
Both!

Allow me to explain what I am doing.

A friend of mines B day is coming up, and we are all REALLY good at making builds, but as most of you know, most of the op, or crazy fun stuff is banned right away due to how imbalanced it is.
I am planning something sort of a grab bag one shot arena d&d game. I am going to make a list of the strongest monsters per CR, starting at level one, and we will randomly draw from the CR pile until we level up, then do again, and again, and again, to see how far we can go.

Builds often focus on early, mid, or late game power, so this will force every player to really think what to make. My inspiration for this was from an old warcraft 3 map that we all use to lan up and enjoy playing :)

[Blackhawk748]

Well take a peak at the Elder Evils, those things are a freakin apocalyptic event. Hydras are nasty for their CR.

About Dragons, only certain ones are Elementally aligned, if you want to shake things up throw an Incarnum dragon at the party, those are fun.

Also i feel the Aspect of Tiamat needs to be mentioned.

Edit: Also holy crap malaugryms. If you have Silver you should be ok, but you better gank it because if you get into a slug mach with it it will probably win.

[gawwy]

With your CR arena thing.

Are your players getting rests between each fight?

is it 1v1 or party of x vs monster(s)?

[thecrimsondawn]

@gawwy

I have not worked out all of the details yet as this is still a couple months off, but I am thinking right now our team of (4 atm, max of 5) will only get rest when the team levels up. This will strain resources, but also offer break points. I have not worked out yet how I will do gear.

I kinda like the idea of randomly rolling on the loot table for CR related loot since there will be a lot of fights. That would give replayability should the party wipe early, but maybe I will include some kinda mini vender thing related to there level too/

Im also thinking about giving everyone a one a game spell that they can use to revive one player with no penalty, just to offset the early levels where monsters can kill a player with a lucky strike. Maybe I will just make it a 3 live revive pool for the team tho. Again, its still in the planing phase, thats why I am here :)

[Karl Aegis]

Traditionally, the strongest enemy you could face would be the DM or a metaphor for the DM. Not much gets more powerful than being able to houserule your opponent's powers away.

[thecrimsondawn]

Traditionally, the strongest enemy you could face would be the DM or a metaphor for the DM. Not much gets more powerful than being able to houserule your opponent's powers away.

The issue with that is most DM's are week vs bribe damage, sex damage, or food damage, depending on the DM. :P

[Just to Browse]

The worst monster for its CR: That Damn Crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

[Karl Aegis]

The issue with that is most DM's are week vs bribe damage, sex damage, or food damage, depending on the DM. :P

Then stat out the next best thing: the campaign setting.

[thecrimsondawn]

Then stat out the next best thing: the campaign setting.

If this was a normal game, then of course, but this is an arena type of one shot game. Think Rome Colosseum, but with magic and psionics.

While this thread is listed as 3.5, im not opposed to adding in anything from 3.0 to pathfinder, dragonlance, or anything, since every book and template will be in the open.

Oh while this is a bit off topic, could one of you explain how buying off a LA works?
Ive never used the rule before, but it may come into play here.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Dragons have a major flaw - each one focuses on one element or style, and then uses basic combat tactics such as flying, or attacking an insane number of times with natural attacks. Using energy immunity + very high ac can shut "most" dragons down.
Time dragon itself fits the bill of what I am looking for tho, as its attacks are force, and aging, and has psy ability's instead of arcane. I also dont see a save on that aura making it just about the most op skill ever. This one is going on the top of the list, thanks :)

Dragons generally have pretty potent casting (most end up around CL 17-19) alongside massive HP, a powerful breath weapon, a nasty attack routine, flight, and enhanced senses. Also if a dragon is using "basic" combat tactics you are playing a dragon wrong. By great wyrm they are all archmage level intelligence and are capable of planning out quite a ways and changing strategies at the drop of a hat. These aren't lizards with magic; these are sorcerers with a better chassis.

I would like to recommend the arcane dragons (tome and hex) from Dragon 343. They have extremely good casting, the ability to hover, and both possess nasty unique abilities that can make them dangerous in a fight. High age category tome dragons have TPK'd more than one party with their casting + metamagic shenanigans (and what's not love about hex's fort vs annihilation?)

[Forrestfire]

Dragons, Ak'Chazar Rakshasa, Ethergaunts, Solars, Spell Weavers, Sylphs... Really, anything with a decently-scaled spellcasting progression will blow almost any comparably-CR'd creature so far out of the water they got placed into orbit.

[Urpriest]

Generally speaking, making a strong monster uses a lot of the same techniques as making a strong PC. I'd go find optimized builds, switch out their equipment and ability scores for NPC ones, and swap the race (when you can) for something that gives you more levels than your CR by exploiting the nonassociated class level mechanics.

[thecrimsondawn]

Well, yes, dragons are monsters to do battle with, but they still only have one swift action, one standard action, and one move action. With those they have a great deal of options to use, but at best can only make 2 real attacks around (unless you consider a dragon taking flight to knock someone off there back, that would be 3)

Also, this is also going to be the same party that killed an Adult Red Dragon at lv 5 with a quill feather token....

Lost 2 players in the fight (myself included due to a bad ref roll) but that was never supposed to be a battle we could win

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, yes, dragons are monsters to do battle with, but they still only have one swift action, one standard action, and one move action. With those they have a great deal of options to use, but at best can only make 2 real attacks around (unless you consider a dragon taking flight to knock someone off there back, that would be 3)

This is true of any monster and most do not have a fraction of the options a dragon has. And I would really recommend Tome Dragon if that is your worry. Wyrm/great wyrm tome's can quicken spells for free and get a number of epic spellcaster feats due to hitting CL 21 at Ancienct.

[Bad Wolf]

Well, a swarm could take out a decent sized part of an army before someone finds a torch or a spellcaster.

[thecrimsondawn]

I enjoy swarms and force damage as they just do damage most of the time.
However swarms often have low hp, or are very week to one type of thing.

[atemu1234]

Great Wyrm Time Dragon. DM fiat as a breath weapon.

[Mystral]

Hecatoncheires is fine. Those things don't kill gods, they kill pantheons.

[thecrimsondawn]

Hecatoncheires are EXACTLY what I am looking for!
That is a dam monster there.

I seem to recall some kinda monster that looked like a totem pole that I saw ages ago that made the stats on gods cry for there mom, but I cant seem to find it.

[ben-zayb]

T1-T2 classes* have campaign breaking abilities, so it won't be surprising if any player with sufficiently high system mastery can use any monster with access to T1-T2 options (Dragons, Ethergaunts, Phaerimm, Unbodied, Solar, etc.) to effortlessly demolish any obstacle(s) who don't have access to such options.

For those who actually do (AKA, 2/5 of Ye Olde Classic Party), most of the challenge will then be on anticipation of PC plans, contingencies, countercontingencies, countercountercontingencies (nested ad infinitum), plans A-Z (or more...most likely more), and keeping the enemy from getting back up.

* they can also beat the tarrasque between the levels where the average BAB classes and the full BAB classes get their 2nd iterative attack.

[Karl Aegis]

Neutronium Golems divide by zero as an attack of opportunity.

[thecrimsondawn]

*drops jaw at the sight of Neutronium Golem*

Is that official, or out of some kinda April fools edition?

[Karl Aegis]

*drops jaw at the sight of Neutronium Golem*

Is that official, or out of some kinda April fools edition?

3rd party from The Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary. It's possible to get bigger stuff like a Neutronium Leviathan (bigger colossus that turns into smaller golems when they're defeated in a chain) or the previously mentioned sentient campaign multiverse.

[Eldan]

Thing is, most of the material in that book is just taking normal monsters and tacking on a few zeroes to each number. I think we had a "kill the neutronium golem" challenge some time back, it's possible at mid-levels. Being immune to anything it can do wasn't too hard either.

[Ferronach]

I seem to recall the Bodak CR 7? (may be Boden or something) from MM1 being a real pain in the preverbial for a group of 6 experienced lvl 7 players. The only reason that they survived is because the ninja managed to get his bag of holding around the things head....

[thecrimsondawn]

I seem to recall the Bodak CR 7? (may be Boden or something) from MM1 being a real pain in the preverbial for a group of 6 experienced lvl 7 players. The only reason that they survived is because the ninja managed to get his bag of holding around the things head....

Oh ya, I know of the Bodak quite well, as the game I am in atm is so undead heavy that fighting 15 or more of them at lv 10 can happen with so much as one screw up.

The good news is our party atm consists of myself (focused on untouchable saves and ac)
some psi class that can teleport in all kinda ways
an angel with a natural CoP evil up at all times
and from what I can tell - Raptor Jesus....im kidding you not, - a cleric riding some sort of mount that looks like a giant ****, so everyone kept calling it a dickasaurus, who is a lame attempt at matching the sheer undead killing powers of Pelor.
Oh, and a normal rogue.....

[thecrimsondawn]

Also I saw that thread you where talking about. Nice infinite combos, immunity ideas, and what not.
Personally I think I would have just focused on a way to pull off the lightning maces combo on him without my weapons becoming fused to him tho.

[tordirycgoyust]

Strongest for their level, or strongest period? Because if it's strongest for their level, I have to give it to the malaugrym, from Monsters of Faerun. At-will Shapechange, CL 20, at CR 4.

Sure, stuff from Elder Evils or the Epic Level Handbook is going to be stronger, but nothing at CR 4 even comes close to the power of the malaugrym.No. The Malaugrym has the alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) ability. The list of forms it can take is the same (actually slightly better, as it can be unique creatures and objects) as a CL 20 sorcerer with shapechange, and the way that rule was phrased, along with the table (but not text) saying shapechange instead of alternate form has lead to no end of insanity. The Malaugrym is still an absolute beast at melee (pit fiend DPR is scary), still has plenty of nasty tricks, and is still hilariously under CRed (and likely the strongest CR 4 monster in the books), but it's not anywhere NEAR as outrageous as at will CL 20 shapechange.