Half-orc / rogue (assassin) 3 = 8d6+2 damage?

[Boci]

Just checking this "combo" works:

3rd level Half-orc rogue with the assassin archetype, duel wielding shortswords, 15 dexterity. Against a surprised target, assassinate allows them to attack with advantage, and turns any hit into a crit. That's 2d6 damage, and they add 2 for their dexterity. Savagery from their race then adds an additional d6, and they add 2d6 for sneak attack. That's 5d6+2. Then they use their bonus action to attack with their offhand weapon, again with advantage and again auto critting on a hit, which adds a further 3d6.

Just to be clear, I don't think this combo is broken or anything, its situational, and even with advantage you will not always hit the target twice, but when you do average damage is 30, which is respectable. However I am new to the game, so I may have missed something or does this work?

[jaydubs]

My rogue familiarity is a bit rusty, but this is how I read it. (I could be quite off here.)

1. Assassinate differentiates between enemies that haven't taken a turn yet, and those who are surprised. You only get the autocrit during the surprise round (if you get one) against an enemy that doesn't get to act during the surprise round. You can get advantage for the first round simply by rolling higher initiative. You can get advantage in the second round if you both surprised the enemy and rolled higher initiative.

2. I believe sneak attack is multiplied on a critical hit. Which would mean, assuming you have surprised an enemy and hit with both attacks, you'd actually do 10d6+2 damage.

[Strill]

2. I believe sneak attack is multiplied on a critical hit. Which would mean, assuming you have surprised an enemy and hit with both attacks, you'd actually do 10d6+2 damage.
Yep. It explicitly says so in the description of Critical Hits.

[Mandragola]

Yep. It explicitly says so in the description of Critical Hits.

No, because it also explicitly says you can only sneak once per turn.

Half-orc rogues are good. A half-orc fighter/rogue seems like it would be a pretty dangerous character to me. Such a character might want to wear medium armour and emphasise strength instead of dex, given the half-orc's stat bonuses.

It should be pointed out that the advantage half-orcs get from savage attacks is good, but balanced out pretty well by the stuff some other races that you'd think of a rogue-ish have. Halflings, elves, some glomes, half-elves and humans all get better dex, which is sort of better everything. They all also get various other bonuses. But a half-orc one is also clearly a viable and interesting option.

[SharkForce]

No, because it also explicitly says you can only sneak once per turn.

i'm confused why that would prevent you from critting with sneak attack. or perhaps you think he was sneak attacking on the off hand? he wasn't. 1d6 base on the short sword (no attribute bonus), doubled to 2d6 for the critical hit from being an assassin, then roll an extra die on the crit for being a half-orc is 3d6 damage on the off-hand attack. add that on to the 3d6 + 2 from the main hand (which gets to add dex to damage) and then add 2d6 sneak attack dice and you get 8d6+2 damage (except, as noted, you should probably get 10d6+2 because your sneak attack dice should also be doubled on a crit).

[Mechaviking]

i'm confused why that would prevent you from critting with sneak attack. or perhaps you think he was sneak attacking on the off hand? he wasn't. 1d6 base on the short sword (no attribute bonus), doubled to 2d6 for the critical hit from being an assassin, then roll an extra die on the crit for being a half-orc is 3d6 damage on the off-hand attack. add that on to the 3d6 + 2 from the main hand (which gets to add dex to damage) and then add 2d6 sneak attack dice and you get 8d6+2 damage (except, as noted, you should probably get 10d6+2 because your sneak attack dice should also be doubled on a crit).

This is correct 10d6+2 on the main hand, tis pretty baller and I haven´t seen it in play to critique the "overpowered" part.

[jaydubs]

This is correct 10d6+2 on the main hand, tis pretty baller and I haven´t seen it in play to critique the "overpowered" part.

I think 10d6+2 is for both attacks, not just the main hand. Just the main hand, critting with sneak attack, should be 7d6+2.

[Malifice]

Just checking this "combo" works:

3rd level Half-orc rogue with the assassin archetype, duel wielding shortswords, 15 dexterity. Against a surprised target, assassinate allows them to attack with advantage, and turns any hit into a crit. That's 2d6 damage, and they add 2 for their dexterity. Savagery from their race then adds an additional d6, and they add 2d6 for sneak attack. That's 5d6+2. Then they use their bonus action to attack with their offhand weapon, again with advantage and again auto critting on a hit, which adds a further 3d6.

Just to be clear, I don't think this combo is broken or anything, its situational, and even with advantage you will not always hit the target twice, but when you do average damage is 30, which is respectable. However I am new to the game, so I may have missed something or does this work?

Main hand: 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (critical hit) + 1d6 (orc ability) + 4d6 (rogue sneak attack 3rd level. doubled on a crit) + dex = (7d6+dex)

Off hand: 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (critical hit) + 1d6 (orc ability) = (3d6).

10d6+ (dex or strength). If both attacks hit.

[Mandragola]

True sorry. I didn't see where the extra 2d6 over what the OP calculated came from.

[Mechaviking]

I think 10d6+2 is for both attacks, not just the main hand. Just the main hand, critting with sneak attack, should be 7d6+2.

my bad brosef :D

[Boci]

Okay, good to hear this works, and the actually damage would be higher than I had thought. And yeah, using a race that gives +2 to dex would probably have been better, but, none of those races would have allowed you to roll 10d6, which puts them at a distinct disadvantage here.

[Person_Man]

Main hand: 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (critical hit) + 1d6 (orc ability) + 4d6 (rogue sneak attack 3rd level. doubled on a crit) + dex = (7d6+dex)

Off hand: 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (critical hit) + 1d6 (orc ability) = (3d6).

10d6+ (dex or strength). If both attacks hit.

This is correct. Note that it could be pushed a bit higher through the use of certain poisons as well, if you can afford it.

I've played an Assassin Rogue extensively, and wrote a small Rogue guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395706-Person_Man%92s-5E-Rogue-Guide). Assassinate is indeed awesome. But it is highly situational.

But you should note that:

DM fiat can easily limit when you can use Assassinate.
The Half-Orc crit ability is limited to melee attacks, which can be a lot more dangerous then using ranged attacks, and on average can deal less damage then a Rogue using ranged attacks and Crossbow Expert. Sneak Attack does not require "flanking" in 5E. It is triggered if you have Advantage, or if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll. You don’t have to be standing anywhere near your target. They just need to be near an enemy (probably one of your allies) and you can’t have Disadvantage on the attack.
TWF uses your Bonus Action. Many rounds you'll want to use your Bonus Action for Cunning Action instead.

[Mandragola]

Okay, good to hear this works, and the actually damage would be higher than I had thought. And yeah, using a race that gives +2 to dex would probably have been better, but, none of those races would have allowed you to roll 10d6, which puts them at a distinct disadvantage here.

Bear in mind that the half-orc needs to invest in strength to make this work best, as otherwise he's at a penalty to hit and damage that more than cancels out the extra D6 when he crits. That's why I think this is best as a fighter/rogue. You get medium armour proficiency, the dual-wielder fighting style and eventually stuff like a second attack and action surge. So by level 8 you can throw out 5 attacks on a surprise round with action surge, each doing something like 3d6+4 damage and one doing 7d6+4.

Then you probably just carry on levelling as a rogue. You cap your strength at level 9 so not much delay to ASIs, and actually you can take the one from fighter 6 any time if you really want. For me though, fighter 5 rogue 15 would be the way to go. The extra ASI could be used to take the dual-wielder feat but it's not that needed for a rogue. You want to be using finesse weapons anyway to sneak with so the feat only really helps you to dual-wield rapiers.

[DireSickFish]

Bear in mind that the half-orc needs to invest in strength to make this work best, as otherwise he's at a penalty to hit and damage that more than cancels out the extra D6 when he crits. That's why I think this is best as a fighter/rogue. You get medium armour proficiency, the dual-wielder fighting style and eventually stuff like a second attack and action surge. So by level 8 you can throw out 5 attacks on a surprise round with action surge, each doing something like 3d6+4 damage and one doing 7d6+4.

Then you probably just carry on levelling as a rogue. You cap your strength at level 9 so not much delay to ASIs, and actually you can take the one from fighter 6 any time if you really want. For me though, fighter 5 rogue 15 would be the way to go. The extra ASI could be used to take the dual-wielder feat but it's not that needed for a rogue. You want to be using finesse weapons anyway to sneak with so the feat only really helps you to dual-wield rapiers.

The Half-orc could easily go dex and leave his strength at a 10 and it would work fine. You're trading having max dex for the other racial abilities of the half-orc and it adds 2d6 to your opening burst if you go with this tactic. Rogue's get enough ASI's that its not a huge deal to be at 14/15 dex at lvl 1 instead of 16/17 dex.

You -could- go str with a finesse weapon and be fine, but i'd argue dex is important for other skills you'd most likly want (stealth), initiative bonus so you can get off that burst, and dex saves are more common than str saves.

[SharkForce]

yeah, you really don't *need* to go full strength. it's a short-term loss (less accuracy can really cost you on a rogue purely because landing your 1-2 attacks is so crucial to getting your sneak attack damage out there) but long-term gain (you're capped at dex 20 anyways, but the half-orc gets extra crit damage beyond what another race could offer).

[Spacehamster]

If going fighter/assassin can also pick duelist style and instead use a shield in offhand for added protection since you get more attacks from fighter bonus attacks. A level 11 half Orc fig lvl 3 assassin with a rapier and a shield puts out 3d8 + 7 + 4d6 on first attack and 3d8 + 7 on the remaining 2(5 if action surge). Pretty neat.

[Myzz]

yeah, you really don't *need* to go full strength. it's a short-term loss (less accuracy can really cost you on a rogue purely because landing your 1-2 attacks is so crucial to getting your sneak attack damage out there) but long-term gain (you're capped at dex 20 anyways, but the half-orc gets extra crit damage beyond what another race could offer).

the argument can be made the other way too...

You don't NEED to go full DEX, especially if your in Medium armor, since you won't be able to use it anyways...

If going Fighter/Rog, strength might be better as a stat since it wont be limited... (Easy_Lee shoujld rejoice, someone said str>dex)

[Mandragola]

yeah, you really don't *need* to go full strength. it's a short-term loss (less accuracy can really cost you on a rogue purely because landing your 1-2 attacks is so crucial to getting your sneak attack damage out there) but long-term gain (you're capped at dex 20 anyways, but the half-orc gets extra crit damage beyond what another race could offer).

I'd hardly call 12 levels "short term". That's very possibly the character's entire career.


If going fighter/assassin can also pick duelist style and instead use a shield in offhand for added protection since you get more attacks from fighter bonus attacks. A level 11 half Orc fig lvl 3 assassin with a rapier and a shield puts out 3d8 + 7 + 4d6 on first attack and 3d8 + 7 on the remaining 2(5 if action surge). Pretty neat.

Trouble here is that you're sacrificing a lot of sneak attack damage. A single-class rogue at that point (level 14) has 7d6 of sneak attack so they'd do 2D8+14d6+5, without having any kind of MC tricks. They could do that nice and far away with a bow if they felt like it. The extra attacks fighters get actually don't necessarily trump the sneak damage a rogue would get. It's pretty close either way.

[SharkForce]

there is no need to wear medium armour, and getting good AC in medium armour still requires a substantial investment into dex anyways.

if you can get heavy armour, sure, go strength. if you're stuck with anything less, i'd go dex. otherwise you'd need strength maxed out, con as high as possible, and dex at a reasonably high amount, and one of those three attributes are going to suffer.

[Myzz]

there is no need to wear medium armour, and getting good AC in medium armour still requires a substantial investment into dex anyways.

I would disagree that Str is a "substantial" investment for a Fighter/Rogue... You need 13 min in BOTH Str and Dex in order to multiclass those 2 classes. The investment is 1 point...

Fighter/Rogue could go 14 Dex (1 point) which effectively maxes their Dex IF they were to go Medium armor. ALL heavy armor has disadvantage to stealth... where as you can get a Breastplate AC 14+2 Dex max, and not have disadvantage on stealth. Which is the same AC as a Studded Leather wearing Rogue with 18 Dex...

The upside is you can minimally invest in Dex outside what you would have had to in order to MC, Max Str for athletics (jumping, swimming, carry capacity, and pushing...) as well as attack stat. With Expertise in Stealth, you probably wont notice the missing Dex often.

Of course the opposite is true... with a 13 in Str, you might as well get that +1 eventually for your saves and such. BUT going that route nets you much less...

[SharkForce]

14 + 2 is 16, which by most people's count will be one less than 12 + 5 = 17.

also, a fighter/rogue doesn't need any strength. it's completely optional. seriously, if you're going to wear medium armour, go dex. you already need 14+ for AC, and 14 is a large investment for a third-most-important attribute.

alternately, you can just accept that your AC is kinda going to suck (or that your stealth is kinda going to suck unless/until you get mithral armour).

[DireSickFish]

The main reason I'd say dex over strength is that you are already limited to finesse weapons anyway for sneak attack. Yes you -can- use them with strength instead and RAW it will give you SA, but I wouldn't want to run into the DM that rules the other way. a strength build is possible and viable, but this way you can dump str and pump int for investigation checks or wis for perception or cha to be the party face. Str is great if you want it to be a grapple build but if not I'd go dex. It isn't a huge difference either way.

[Myzz]

14 + 2 is 16, which by most people's count will be one less than 12 + 5 = 17.

also, a fighter/rogue doesn't need any strength. it's completely optional. seriously, if you're going to wear medium armour, go dex. you already need 14+ for AC, and 14 is a large investment for a third-most-important attribute.

alternately, you can just accept that your AC is kinda going to suck (or that your stealth is kinda going to suck unless/until you get mithral armour).

Yeah the AC 17 only happens when Dex gets maxxed... 14 is a 1 pt investment for a fighter/rogue.

I'm not saying its the best rogue build...But IF MC Fighter/Rogue a strength based build is entirely viable. In fact after having to get both stats to 13, the Str based might net you more in the long run.
As you pointed out AC would take a 1 point hit compared to Maxxed out Dex
Your Dex skills (Acrobatics, SoH, Stealth and Initiative) would take a 2-3 point hit
Your Str skills (Athletics...) would get a 2-4 point bump
To hit and Dmg would be the same
Primary weapon choice would be the same
Choice of Situational Weapons increases significantly... If the Dragon can only be killed by the GreatSword of Dragon Slaying, well a Dex rogue is SoL...
Retain the ability to put on Heavy Armor for Epic fights, where you wont be able to stealth anyways... (without penalty)

If you expertise your stealth its never really gonna suck...

Melee Dex Build does have to put up with Str based effects like grapples, BMF effects, webs, restraints...

OF course you could just expertise your Athletics, as a Dex F/R..

It could be a matter of what your focus for MC F/R was... If your taking 10+levels of Rogue then yeah.

Assuming Melee based Assassin/Fighter really Dex only helps you go first, and dodge AE's. With Evasion... dodging AE's less important (only take half dmg if you fail). Going first being is a very big advantage for an assassin though...

I think Dex based is better, but only marginally so... and dependent on party make up Str based could be superior late game situationaly... like going into a fight where you know your gonna be taking heavy hits, and wearing this Magic Heavy Armor could save your behind... Or needing to use this 2hander to bypass some enchantment...

[DireSickFish]

Yeah the AC 17 only happens when Dex gets maxxed... 14 is a 1 pt investment for a fighter/rogue.

I'm not saying its the best rogue build...But IF MC Fighter/Rogue a strength based build is entirely viable. In fact after having to get both stats to 13, the Str based might net you more in the long run.


Fighter multiclass is 13 Str OR Dex, just FYI. So you can literally never put any points into str if you don't want to.

[Myzz]

Fighter multiclass is 13 Str OR Dex, just FYI. So you can literally never put any points into str if you don't want to.

oh yeah... just double checked that... thanks

my bad

[Mandragola]

It occurs to me that there's another way to look at this, which is that the assassinate ability doesn't require a finesse weapon. It works with greataxes. So the logical thing to do is to use one, and hit people with it over and over again.

You probably start as a fighter and get to level 6 or so, to cap strength. Then you switch to rogue and get to level 3, then back to fighter to 11.

The real point is to have 2 attacks, or even 3 if you can manage it, great weapon mastery, the assassinate feature and action surge. Throw in battlemaster superiority dice too if you want. Ignore sneak damage and hit for D12s instead of D6s.

A fighter 11 rogue 3 could throw out 7 attacks in a surprise round with his greataxe. Each would do 3d12+5 damage, so that's 21D12+35. You could use the GWM ability on stuff with a low AC to make it 21D12+105. If you felt like it you could add in your superiority dice too for another 10D10 (as you'd have 5 superiority dice by this point, and roll D10s). If those all hit (which they likely wouldn't, using GWM!) your average damage for the round would be 296.5, which is respectable.

Not sure what to take beyond that really. If you did go fighter all the way to 20 then you'd get a second use of action surge, but going for uncanny dodge might be just as useful. Barbarian is an option for this build, eventually, as reckless attack would come in handy for later rounds.

[Kirion]

I'm going to be playing a half-orc assassin for my next character. It's going to be Assassin 3 / Fighter 6 / Assassin+ with a 2 level dip in Barbarian somewhere for RP reasons.

I did some comparison math in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18877291&postcount=12)

A +2 DEX race assassin using a bow (or dual crossbows for cheese) is going to be the superior option overall. DEX is better because it lets you use bows and finesse weapons equally well, you add it to your AC, and you add it to your Initiative -- which in turn makes Assassinate stronger. A STR build has pretty much no advantages, unless you want to dip into Barbarian like me -- then it makes it a nicer dip.

Still, a dual-wielding half-orc assassination is tremendous burst, so that's nice. I'd be curious how it ranks against a Barbarian / Champion half-orc with a greataxe.

[Easy_Lee]

A +2 DEX race assassin using a bow (or dual crossbows for cheese) is going to be the superior option overall. DEX is better because it lets you use bows and finesse weapons equally well, you add it to your AC, and you add it to your Initiative -- which in turn makes Assassinate stronger. A STR build has pretty much no advantages, unless you want to dip into Barbarian like me -- then it makes it a nicer dip.

One thing the crossbow expert builds overlook is opportunity attacks. Opportunity attacks can add sneak attack, since SA can apply once per turn.

Sample build: A Fighter 6 / rogue 14 with twf style has 7d6 sneak attack, makes up to three attacks per round with Dex added to all of them, is SAD on dexterity, and has 7 ASIs to spend on maxing dexterity and getting feats that allow for more opportunity attacks. One could have a defensive duelist, dual wielder, sentinel, mage slayer, variant human rogue with max dex, 14 con and strength, and two feats left over.

[SharkForce]

crossbow expert can use a hand crossbow and a finesse weapon if you want. no need to forfeit those potential opportunity attacks if they're at all likely (not that they will be in most cases)

[Easy_Lee]

crossbow expert can use a hand crossbow and a finesse weapon if you want. no need to forfeit those potential opportunity attacks if they're at all likely (not that they will be in most cases)

Which is why you use the rogue's extra ASI and SAD status to pickup feats that give you additional OA opportunities.

[SharkForce]

sentinel might work once, and then it makes you a target. polearm mastery will work approximately zero times, because no approprite polearms are finesse weapons. mageslayer will only work if someone is willing to cast a spell while standing next to you (which is unlikely if they know it's going to make them eat a full sneak attack).

so... which feat exactly are you going to take that will give you so many bonus OAs to use sneak attack with? because i'm sure there are plenty of people playing rogues that would really like to know.

getting OAs on a rogue is amazing. it is also something that generally speaking won't just happen without putting some work in to create very specific circumstances, most of which will need to be created by other characters (otherwise you're giving up a guaranteed action on your own turn for a chance at an OA not on your turn, which is just a bad deal).