[3.5] Apart from Turning, what effects key off being Undead?

[Mr Adventurer]

I've long had the idea of a vampire Monk bad guy, and at 20th level the Monk class feature would change the vampire's type from undead to Outsider. But what effect would this actually have on the guy?

Relatedly, would it be legit to say that Turning is a 'magical effect'?

[General Sajaru]

My suspicion would be that, as an already augmented humanoid undead, the vampire wouldn't receive most of the ability's benefits. As for turning, it's noted as being a supernatural ability.

[Troacctid]

For what it's worth, you can get the Outsider type a lot more easily than taking 20 levels of Monk--just add the pseudonatural template (from Complete Arcane).

[Maglubiyet]

That's a good one. I think the vampire might actually lose more than he gains. If he's no longer undead have would have to give up immunity to mind-altering effects, poisons, paralysis, sleep, and critical hits. But as a native outsider he could be reincarnated or resurrected. Lopsided trade-off unless he wanted to come back from n a new form.

[Crake]

The way I would rule it would be that monk would change the base creature's type to outsider, and then the vampire template would have to be changed to the monstrous vampire template to be able to apply to an outsider, resulting in an outsider vampire (thus still undead)

[Maglubiyet]

The way I would rule it would be that monk would change the base creature's type to outsider, and then the vampire template would have to be changed to the monstrous vampire template to be able to apply to an outsider, resulting in an outsider vampire (thus still undead)

I like it. Fair and logical.

[WhamBamSam]

That's a good one. I think the vampire might actually lose more than he gains. If he's no longer undead have would have to give up immunity to mind-altering effects, poisons, paralysis, sleep, and critical hits. But as a native outsider he could be reincarnated or resurrected. Lopsided trade-off unless he wanted to come back from n a new form.I'm not sure that's actually the case. Most of those things are explicitly spelled out in the template itself, not left as consequences of undead typing. I think you should retain most of the undead immunities and such from most undead templates if you wriggle out of the undead type somehow.

You do lose access to things that require the undead type, which are occasionally important. For instance if you wanted your vampire to have Totemist levels to help with grappling, you'd need him to retain the undead type in order to qualify for the Undead Meldshaper feat. An outsider vampire would be both without a Con score to shape soulmelds and the undead type necessary to qualify for the feat that (partway at least) remedies that.

There are, as others have said, better ways than Monk 20 to change an undead's type.

You can delay the level in a savage progression template class that changes your type until after going undead.

Knight of the Sacred Seal and Divine Disciple change your type from 5 level PrCs and there are plenty of 10 level ones that'll do it for you.

Arguably, a Dragonwrought Kobold who becomes a Vampiric Dragon, Dracolich or the like is still a dragon, as it still qualifies for the Dragonwrought feat. It depends how your DM chooses to interpret the last few words of the line "your type is dragon rather than humanoid" (i.e. does it only make your type dragon if it would otherwise be humanoid, or is the only important part the phrase "your type is dragon" with humanoid just being the type of the vast majority of non-Dragonwrought Kobolds). The Otherworldly feat combined with something like the Monstrous Vampire template would work as well, and its language on not being a humanoid, ("you are a native outsider, not a humanoid"), has less of a case for specifically only trumping the humanoid type (ex. a Half-Dragon Elf with the Otherworldly feat is certainly "not a humanoid" even if humanoid is not, in that instance, the alternative to being an outsider, so there's no potential for a snag in the type change like there might be with Dragonwrought). An Otherworldly Monstrous Vampire would probably have its outsider typing reasserted by the feat, rather than becoming undead.

[Psyren]

Why would a vampire monk do this, i.e. take the 20th level of monk? That level represents enlightenment and (putting aside the mechanical weakness of Perfect Self) transcending to a sublime state of mind over matter. I would argue a vampire has too many earthly ties - both to their current form of existence (and all the thirst, drawbacks etc. that go with it) and to its former life, for it to truly ascend in this way without no longer being a vampire. Thus the Outside type overwriting the template makes perfect sense to me.

[UristMcRandom]

Why would a vampire monk do this, i.e. take the 20th level of monk? That level represents enlightenment and (putting aside the mechanical weakness of Perfect Self) transcending to a sublime state of mind over matter. I would argue a vampire has too many earthly ties - both to their current form of existence (and all the thirst, drawbacks etc. that go with it) and to its former life, for it to truly ascend in this way without no longer being a vampire. Thus the Outside type overwriting the template makes perfect sense to me.

Going by this logic, and running with an assumption that vampirism is a curse, that would actually make sense fluff-wise. The vampire seeks to master or escape his undead state and embraces enlightenment to achieve that.

[Psyren]

Going by this logic, and running with an assumption that vampirism is a curse, that would actually make sense fluff-wise. The vampire seeks to master or escape his undead state and embraces enlightenment to achieve that.

Right, what I meant to say was - why would a vampire monk attempt to do this and expect to remain a vampire? The fluff of the concept is "perfect self" and a perfect self would not be required to drink blood, or repelled by garlic, or afraid of sunlight, or unable to go indoors without permission from the person who owns the dwelling etc.

[ezkajii]

IIRC, the type priority pyramid from Savage Species is topped off with Dragon, Outsider, and Undead. I think once you've attained any one of these three types your type doesn't change again for applying templates. While the type transition for Monk 20 isn't actually a template, per se, I think it would be more than reasonable to rule that it would follow the same rules.

[WhamBamSam]

IIRC, the type priority pyramid from Savage Species is topped off with Dragon, Outsider, and Undead. I think once you've attained any one of these three types your type doesn't change again for applying templates. While the type transition for Monk 20 isn't actually a template, per se, I think it would be more than reasonable to rule that it would follow the same rules.I think the Savage Species type pyramid may be defunct in 3.5. Here are some relevant quotes from knowledgable people from a thread I posted asking about it a while back...


I'll fully acknowledge that there was nothing explicit. I don't see this as "it existed in 3.0, a new version was published in 3.5, therefore you must use the 3.5 one", but rather as "the rules say that 3.0 content can be used, but only after being adjusted by the DM to fit in with 3.5, and this doesn't fit in".

Basically, 3.0 had types that behaved very differently. Animals got skill points that weren't HD-based, Constructs just straight-up didn't get skill points or feats, other types got feats at weird rates...it was kind of a mess all-round. 3.5 standardized a lot of that, and in my mind that (and the new concept of acquired and inherited templates) got rid of a lot of the reason for the type pyramid in the first place. I view "get rid of the type pyramid, it's an abomination" as just one of the "minor adjustments" needed to use Savage Species in a 3.5 game.


This is the rule which establishes Monster Manual as the primary source for templates:

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. If you follow the rules in Monster Manual, there are templates which change creature type. Those always change the type, because MM says so, and it's the primary source. The older rule in Savage Species which disagrees with this is defunct because the MM rules are always correct in such disagreements.

[ezkajii]

Well, sir, that is a solid argument. I stand corrected.

[Psyren]

Even if Savage Species did apply here, the fact remains that Perfect Self is not a template. It simply overwrites what you are from the roots, rather than sitting on top like templates do. It's like being Reincarnated as something else - you simply are that thing now, it doesn't matter what you were before.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, template stacking wouldn't apply so it would just be what the class feature says - you count as an Outsider for spells and magical effects.

The specific wording is interesting. For example, it would presumably allow you to keep your Undead feats since they aren't 'spells and magical effects'.

You might lose out by being treated as an Outsider rather than Undead for many such effects - except that the template gives you most of those anyway. Are there any exceptions to this?