Uncommon classes and the tier system

[BootStrapTommy]

Looking through tier lists, trying to get a sense of traditional methods for addressing magic supremacy without banning, and I've noticed that many tier listings lack classes often present in my groups campaigns.

For example, I've yet to see a tier list which includes dragon shaman or dragonfire adepts. Or spirit shaman?

[Forrestfire]

Googling any of those classes will get you numerous discussions on what tiers they are, but I've generally seen DFA called Tier 3/high Tier 4, Dragon Shaman as solidly Tier 5, and Spirit Shaman debated as being either Tier 1 or Tier 2, depending on how strong the Druid list is perceived.

[137beth]

Spirit Shaman is sometimes argued as being as low as tier 3 or as high as tier 1 (and not just by the people who think monks are tier 2:smalltongue:). Personally I think it is closer to tier 1. DFA is borderline tier 3-4. I'm not particularly familiar with Dragon Shaman, but I think it is pretty far on the weak end.

[BootStrapTommy]

I guess I'm not sure about the Dragon Shaman's Tier 5.

Why exactly is it percieved as worse than the Marshal?

[Troacctid]

Because Marshal auras scale with Charisma, which allows them to do at least one thing pretty well. Dragon Shaman auras are capped at a small static boost, so they can't really do anything well.

[Blackhawk748]

I guess I'm not sure about the Dragon Shaman's Tier 5.

Why exactly is it percieved as worse than the Marshal?

Generally because everything it does can be replicated by a feat or just done better by a DFA. Its kinda sad actually. I believe its specifically worse than Marshall because Marshalls can give an extra move action or add charisma to various things, which isnt what Dragon Shamans do. Now this isnt saying that the Dragon Shaman's Auras are bad, its just that anyone can get them with a feat.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Troacctid]

I actually think that Marshal and Dragon Shaman are about equally bad, as base classes go. They both suck pretty hard. The difference is that Marshals have one level (1st level) that is worth taking, whereas Dragon Shamans have zero.

[137beth]

Edit: Ninja'd
And since the discussion involves tier 5 classes, Ninja'd is a more appropriate description than Swordsaged:smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

I actually think that Marshal and Dragon Shaman are about equally bad, as base classes go. They both suck pretty hard. The difference is that Marshals have one level (1st level) that is worth taking, whereas Dragon Shamans have zero.

In the defense of the Dragon Shaman you at least get stuff past lvl 3, not great stuff, but its something. Whereas i have never heard of someone taking more than 3 levels of Marshall.


And since the discussion involves tier 5 classes, Ninja'd is a more appropriate description than Swordsaged:smalltongue:

I generally use Ninja for when that happens as that class needs some love. :smalltongue:

[BootStrapTommy]

The idea is that T3 and T4 can gesalt with NPC classes. T5 and T6 can gesalt with each other or Adept. Little bit more balanced.

But in order to do that, the tier of DFA was necessary.

[eggynack]

Spirit Shaman is sometimes argued as being as low as tier 3 or as high as tier 1 (and not just by the people who think monks are tier 2:smalltongue:). Personally I think it is closer to tier 1.
Yeah, it's a weird class. Usually the tier 3 arguments are based on the strict definition of the tiers, as the class' pseudo-prepared casting doesn't ditch any nukes over the long term. I tend to think the class is tier two, probably high in the tier. My underlying reasoning is that the class actually is ditching nukes, both in terms of the short and long term. On the short term, you just don't have access to the same spell variety as the druid does. You lack spontaneous summoning, which drops versatility by a lot, and when looking at, say, 5th level spells, you're still only running one choice per day by level eleven, a number which, again, isn't being increased by summoning.

In terms of long term versatility, you don't actually have as many spells on your list as the druid does, even if the two might look the same. First, you lose all of the actual spells that are made useful through wild shape, the animal companion, and sometimes even summoning. This includes standard buffs like bite of the X and animal growth, but it also includes amazing stuff like enhance wild shape, and the utility of BFC effects is dropped some by the lack of inevitability. Simultaneously, your actual list is shorter. Wild shape isn't just a big beatstick maker. It's your main and best source of flight, your source for better movement modes along every possible axis, and with form adding feats and maybe enhance wild shape, your source of a mass of other abilities that are incredibly relevant when determining ceiling. It also, of course, buffs stats very effectively, offering big AC and initiative boosts, along with size and strength. Simultaneously, you're also losing the animal companion, which is a free minionmancy effect, which is sweet. Very relevant to power level in the early game.

Notably, all of these losses of long term versatility also count towards short term versatility. You're ditching power and versatility alike all over the place, and the overall impact is a loss in power that I think definitely drops the class by a tier. A druid isn't just a tier one stapled to a tier three stapled to a tier five. It's the synergistic whole of all of those beings. And while it might feel weird to account for an ostensibly tier three ability when placed next to the end all and be all that is magic, but wild shape is fundamentally a part of that tier one ability. Is the wizard list still the wizard list without overland flight? Yes, but less so, and it's an exchange that happens again and again. I don't think tier three is justifiable, because your spell list is still very vast and versatile, but it's also difficult to justify placing the class in amongst those tier one titans.

[Eloel]

The idea is that T3 and T4 can gesalt with NPC classes. T5 and T6 can gesalt with each other or Adept. Little bit more balanced.

But in order to do that, the tier of DFA was necessary.

In that case, NPC classes it is.

[Karl Aegis]

A dragon shaman can make it into tier 4 with enough work, being able to target an enemy's AC, Reflex save and Will Save and can make a usable party face. It's certainly much better than a monk.

[Grod_The_Giant]

<snip>
So you've got a "vast and versatile" spell list, but the class is mostly lacking in nuke options. That sounds a lot more like a T3 ("capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area") than a T2 ("Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks.")

[eggynack]

So you've got a "vast and versatile" spell list, but the class is mostly lacking in nuke options. That sounds a lot more like a T3 ("capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area") than a T2 ("Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks.")
Mostly lacking in nuke options doesn't mean completely lacking in nuke options, and the definition of tier three fundamentally requires a lack of nukes. You're hacking off a big part of the druid list, and I think that what you're left with is a class with comparable power to a druid in several areas (entangle, control winds, speedy earthquakes, heart of water, eventually shapechange, and so on), but it can't access those areas nearly as well, and it's lacking in some other areas. On some level, however, I feel like you're always going to be left at least a little lacking if you try to perfectly match up the spirit shaman to one of the tier definitions. The spirit shaman is stronger than the strongest tier three, in every way that matters, and it's weaker than the weakest tier one, again in every way that matters. I don't think that the class particularly makes sense as either a tier one or a tier three in that context.

Edit: You also don't have as many support nukes. Friendly fire isn't much of an option when that's your only 4th level spell.

[Coidzor]

The idea is that T3 and T4 can gesalt with NPC classes. T5 and T6 can gesalt with each other or Adept. Little bit more balanced.

But in order to do that, the tier of DFA was necessary.

In that case, Spirit Shaman should be fine either on its own or gestalted with an NPC class, Dragonfire Adept is basically a slightly higher in tier Warlock so you already know what you can gestalt it with from knowing it's somewhere between T3 and T4, and Dragon Shaman are bleh but not Complete Warrior Samurai-level bleh, so they're in T5 by default, basically, and can gestalt with other bleh classes.

Now, something like Human or Elf or Drow or Orc or Half-Orc or Half-Elf or Halfling or Dwarf Paragon... Those are a bit tougher, I think, since one has to actually think about it, since they haven't really been subject to much tiering discussion, or judge them based upon what one had before entering the racial paragon class.

[atemu1234]

Spirit Shaman is sometimes argued as being as low as tier 3 or as high as tier 1 (and not just by the people who think monks are tier 2:smalltongue:). Personally I think it is closer to tier 1. DFA is borderline tier 3-4. I'm not particularly familiar with Dragon Shaman, but I think it is pretty far on the weak end.

Yeah, Dragon Shaman is weak.

I'd make an argument for Spirit Shaman being T2, simply because it has access to the third best spell list in the game. You simply can't ignore that, even if the (obviously T1) classes overshadow it.

[Chronos]

Personally, I think that Tier 2 is actually two different tiers that live side by side. On the one hand, you have the classes that can choose from a great list, but once they make their choices, they're stuck with them: Call this Tier 2A. On the other hand, you have classes with a list too mediocre to make Tier 1, but who can still change out what they get from that list every day: Call this Tier 2B.

In Tier 2A, we have the sorcerer, favored soul, psion, wilder*, and UA generic spellcaster. In Tier 2B, we have the spirit shaman, wu jen, death master, and binder (with web enhancement vestiges). Both of these are between Tier 1 and Tier 3, but they're between in two different ways, and it only confuses things to lump them together. Add enough good spells (or vestiges, for the binder) to a Tier 2B's class list, and it'll break into Tier 1. Adding spells (or psionic powers) to a Tier 2A's list, though, won't change anything, because they've already got great lists.

And yes, I am arguing that the druid spell list is not, by itself, enough to make Tier 1. The druid's spell list, combined with the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally, and wildshape, and animal companion, all together, is enough to make Tier 1. But just the spells by themselves fall a bit short.


*Yes, Wilder is in the same tier as Psion, even though it's considerably weaker. Both fit the definition of Tier 2 to a T. The tier list is about options, not just about power.

[eggynack]

And yes, I am arguing that the druid spell list is not, by itself, enough to make Tier 1. The druid's spell list, combined with the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally, and wildshape, and animal companion, all together, is enough to make Tier 1. But just the spells by themselves fall a bit short.

Plausible, but not definite. The druid's better access to the list, able to pick a number of highest level spells/day, either immediately or one level delayed, could in itself justify the bump to tier one. Losing that massive chunk of the spell list does hurt a lot, however.


*Yes, Wilder is in the same tier as Psion, even though it's considerably weaker. Both fit the definition of Tier 2 to a T. The tier list is about options, not just about power.
As I mentioned last time you brought this up, I'm very doubtful. The wilder just has such ridiculously reduced access to the list, and it hits power and versatility alike. Is there really justification to classify their casting as better than that of a bard or beguiler? I don't think that's the case, so they probably wouldn't even be at the very top of tier three.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Personally, I think that Tier 2 is actually two different tiers that live side by side. On the one hand, you have the classes that can choose from a great list, but once they make their choices, they're stuck with them: Call this Tier 2A. On the other hand, you have classes with a list too mediocre to make Tier 1, but who can still change out what they get from that list every day: Call this Tier 2B.
I actually really like this. It solves a lot of the issues with unclear scaling from T3-T1.