Why should I go past Cleric 1 for this Ruby Knight Vindicator build?

[Windrammer]

Initially I was going to go Cleric 4, and then I realized something. I am a warrior, not a spellcaster. There is nothing cool about casting "Harm" on something. There are no spells beyond the 4th level that I care about, like Divine Power and Greater Magic Weapon, and I'll get access to them. I'm content with some basic buffs and basic utility, but beyond that, nothing is flavorful. This guy is just a no nonsense fighting man.

Besides, maneuvers are so much cooler for a martial character than spells. Why would I want to miss out on all that awesome stuff I could be doing?

I'm sure I'd be overall more effective with more cleric levels, with all the cheesy ass spells available. I'd probably be overall more effective as a straight Cleric. But it just doesn't seem fun.

Anyways... This is what I was thinking about doing:


Race: Human. God: Tyr. Domains: War and Retribution.

Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight 9 (yes, just 9.)/Crusader onwards. This was wrong. I forgot about the skill ranks requirement, I need like 5 character levels to get into this. So consider it Cleric 1/Crusader 5/RKV 9/Crusader onwards then.

Feats: Divine Metamagic, Quicken Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, Extra Turning, Power Attack, whatever



I wouldn't have taken RKV past 8 it didn't leave me just short of qualifying for a stance I want to grab for the 2nd level of Crusader.

This way I get all the 9th level maneuvers I need too. And with the practiced spellcaster feat, I'll count as CL 12 for things like Divine Favor and Greater Magic Weapon. +3 bonuses! And I'll just cast that choice buff (probably Divine Power) as a free action with quicken and have at least like 5 turn undeads left for refreshing maneuvers and stuff.

But before I go against what everyone ever said was a good way to take this prestige class, I'd really appreciate if someone could tell me if I'm being completely stupid or if I am actually missing out on some potential coolness by forsaking cleric levels.

Some details of the plan if anyone cares to decipher my weirdass partially completed spreadsheet outline:

[eggynack]

The potential coolness you're missing is more magic. Magic is the most potent thing in the game, hence everyone's advice to maximize it. If you don't care about losing that extra magic, then you should be just fine leaving cleric immediately. However, you can't just jump right into RKV as you're doing on that build. The 8 ranks of knowledge (religion) prerequisite means that you can't go into RKV before six. That's why those builds generally have four levels of cleric, rather than one, because you're not exactly progressing magic less by going cleric 1/crusader 1/RKV 10 than by going cleric 4/crusader 1/RKV 10. You'd presumably be replacing those three cleric levels with crusader levels in your build, but you can't replace them with RKV levels.

[Windrammer]

The potential coolness you're missing is more magic. Magic is the most potent thing in the game, hence everyone's advice to maximize it. If you don't care about losing that extra magic, then you should be just fine leaving cleric immediately. However, you can't just jump right into RKV as you're doing on that build. The 8 ranks of knowledge (religion) prerequisite means that you can't go into RKV before six. That's why those builds generally have four levels of cleric, rather than one, because you're not exactly progressing magic less by going cleric 1/crusader 1/RKV 10 than by going cleric 4/crusader 1/RKV 10. You'd presumably be replacing those three cleric levels with crusader levels in your build, but you can't replace them with RKV levels.

I don't see magic past 4th level spells being cool for this character. But thank you very, very much for pointing out my error in the entry into this build.

[Darrin]

If you've decided to focus on maneuvers, then the only reason to take another level of cleric might be that an odd number of non-martial adept levels isn't optimal. Your IL will always be off by 0.5, which doesn't help you with anything. You can take another non-martial adept level in anything you like, and you'll still get all your maneuvers at the same ECL. Another level of cleric gets you +1 BAB and +1 CL.

However, if you're just looking for a one-level dip to even out your IL, a level of Barbarian, Fighter, or Warblade works just as well.

[atemu1234]

I don't see magic past 4th level spells being cool for this character.

Unfortunately, being cool is incredibly subjective; we aren't talking about casting harm here. We're talking about self-buffing, boosting the melee of your RKV. The higher level spells you have access to, the more you can buff. Better and better spells. If you have access to non-core spells, I'm fairly certain that you could find quite a few things that would help you.

[defiantdan]

I guess he doesn't like 5th: Earth hammer/ Meteoric Strike/Righteous Might; 6th:Blade Barrier/Resistance Superior/Visage of the Diety; 7th:Distruction/Holy Transformation/Ressurection; 8th:Chaos shuffle/expunge the supernatural; 9th:astral projection/erupt/gate/implosion/miracle...ect.

[Murmaider]

If you don't care about spellcasting too much you could consider going paladin 4 instead of 1 level of cleric. With just 1 feat you get your spells cast as swift actions and you get all the other paladin good stuff, which admittedly is not much, but hey, +1 BaB!

Whether you take paladin or cleric to qualify, never pick an odd number of non-martial class levels. They only count half towards your total initiator level, rounded down.

Also pick up travel devotion from complete champion so you can make use of those free swift actions even more.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One potential reason to take more cleric levels is that cleric levels count towards higher level maneuvers (albeit at half the normal rate), while crusader levels don't do a thing for spells. But it's not a big deal. Take your one level of cleric and be content-- the build will still be plenty strong enough for most games.

[OldTrees1]

1 level of Prestige Paladin would allow you to take the Battle Blessing feat. This would help keep your spells from interfering with your maneuvers. (Cleric 1 / Crusader 4 / PrestigePal 1 / RKV even has the same IL as Cleric 1 / Crusader 5 / Prestige Paladin after rounding)

Other than that, there is no reason for a Crusader/cleric to take as many cleric levels as a Cleric/crusader.

[Troacctid]

1 level of Prestige Paladin would allow you to take the Battle Blessing feat. This would help keep your spells from interfering with your maneuvers. (Cleric 1 / Crusader 4 / PrestigePal 1 / RKV even has the same IL as Cleric 1 / Crusader 5 / Prestige Paladin after rounding)

Other than that, there is no reason for a Crusader/cleric to take as many cleric levels as a Cleric/crusader.

I don't think Battle Blessing plays nice with Prestige Paladin... you don't cast Paladin spells, you add spells from the Paladin list to your list of Cleric spells and cast them as Cleric spells. I mean, you can ask the DM, but I don't think it would work.

[torrasque666]

I don't think Battle Blessing plays nice with Prestige Paladin... you don't cast Paladin spells, you add spells from the Paladin list to your list of Cleric spells and cast them as Cleric spells. I mean, you can ask the DM, but I don't think it would work.

Its a variant rather than a mainstream class. Its not exactly meant to be used when normal Paladins are in play, so first make sure that they aren't.

[Sian]

If you can handle the feat tax, then doing it via Pious Templar (CD) might be interesting.

[eggynack]

Its a variant rather than a mainstream class. Its not exactly meant to be used when normal Paladins are in play, so first make sure that they aren't.
I don't exactly see how that relates to the question of whether cleric spells that happen to be on the paladin list are paladin spells. They either are or they aren't, and the status of normal paladins is irrelevant to that question. It's not like a feat losing all of its utility impacts the RAW.

[torrasque666]

I don't exactly see how that relates to the question of whether cleric spells that happen to be on the paladin list are paladin spells. They either are or they aren't, and the status of normal paladins is irrelevant to that question. It's not like a feat losing all of its utility impacts the RAW.
True. I appear to have misread the thread a bit.

[OldTrees1]

I don't think Battle Blessing plays nice with Prestige Paladin... you don't cast Paladin spells, you add spells from the Paladin list to your list of Cleric spells and cast them as Cleric spells. I mean, you can ask the DM, but I don't think it would work.

I see it as you are a Paladin and you are casting Paladin spells from the Paladin list as part of the Paladin Prestige class(partially because "Paladin spells" means something different when running with the Prestige Paladin variant). Paladin^4 implies it would work to me (although I would not allow spells not on list of Paladin spells granted by the Paladin Prestige class from the Paladin list from counting).

However you should ask your DM since it appears to be interpreted two ways.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I see it as you are a Paladin and you are casting Paladin spells from the Paladin list as part of the Paladin Prestige class(partially because "Paladin spells" means something different when running with the Prestige Paladin variant). Paladin^4 implies it would work to me (although I would not allow spells not on list of Paladin spells granted by the Paladin Prestige class from the Paladin list from counting).

However you should ask your DM since it appears to be interpreted two ways.

I don't think anyone fails to see your logic chain, however by RAW you are adding spells exclusive to the Paladin Spelllist to the Cleric spelllist making them "Cleric Spells". It's the same process that prevent's spontaneous heals or even spells from the spontaneous domain casting ACF from CoV from counting as "Domain Spells from the Healing Domain" for to purposes of Radiant Servant of Pelor.

[OldTrees1]

I don't think anyone fails to see your logic chain, however by RAW you are adding spells exclusive to the Paladin Spelllist to the Cleric spelllist making them "Cleric Spells". It's the same process that prevent's spontaneous heals or even spells from the spontaneous domain casting ACF from CoV from counting as "Domain Spells from the Healing Domain" for to purposes of Radiant Servant of Pelor.

I never said they were not "Cleric Spells" nor is being/not being "Cleric Spells" necessarily mutually exclusive to them being "Paladin Spells" since UA. (Stated because the phrase "however by RAW" implied you were trying to disprove)

[WhamBamSam]

I'm also pretty strongly of the opinion that Prestige Paladins do not cast Paladin spells (similarly to how I would argue that a Wizard/Incantatrix casts Wizard spells, not Incantatrix spells, or to use an actually significant example, how Mystic Theurge is not itself a spellcasting class and cannot be advanced by other caster PrCs).

I would also argue that Prestige Paladin≠Paladin, even if it is intended as a replacement. It's its own class and should not qualify you for anything that specifically requires the Paladin class, such as Sword of the Arcane Order.

Back on topic: My contribution to the actual topic is more or less just reiterating what others have said.

Note that Cleric 2/Crusader 3/RKV 9/Crusader +X gets the same BAB and IL as a Cleric 1/Crusader 4/RKV 9/Crusader +X, but gets one more level of spells. Even if you don't care about spell levels, it's essentially something for nothing. Even if you just want to buff up with lower level spells, that's a thing 5th level slots can do. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with only taking one level of Cleric, but there is at least some incentive to take a second one.

You could also take a spellcasting PrC dip, which is where the Prestige Paladin suggestion came from. Contemplative would cost you a point of BAB, but the extra domain might be nice.

[Windrammer]

If you've decided to focus on maneuvers, then the only reason to take another level of cleric might be that an odd number of non-martial adept levels isn't optimal. Your IL will always be off by 0.5, which doesn't help you with anything. You can take another non-martial adept level in anything you like, and you'll still get all your maneuvers at the same ECL. Another level of cleric gets you +1 BAB and +1 CL.

However, if you're just looking for a one-level dip to even out your IL, a level of Barbarian, Fighter, or Warblade works just as well.

I will be taking another level of Cleric after all, but my initial thought process was that while it was tempting to round it out to an extra IL, there was little practical reason to take it over a level of Crusader. I didn't need CL beyond 7 for this build.

[Windrammer]

I guess he doesn't like 5th: Earth hammer/ Meteoric Strike/Righteous Might; 6th:Blade Barrier/Resistance Superior/Visage of the Diety; 7th:Distruction/Holy Transformation/Ressurection; 8th:Chaos shuffle/expunge the supernatural; 9th:astral projection/erupt/gate/implosion/miracle...ect.

You are precisely right. Righteous Might and Greater Visage of the Deity were the only spells out of these that really interested me, and the former was still less interesting than the ToB stuff I'm shooting for. I only wanted a few basic buffs... Bull's Strength/Divine Power, Divine Favor, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.

The idea is that there will never be a time when this character is actually RELIANT on spells in combat. He's not a magicky guy. There is no swag in that.

[Windrammer]

Unfortunately, being cool is incredibly subjective; we aren't talking about casting harm here. We're talking about self-buffing, boosting the melee of your RKV. The higher level spells you have access to, the more you can buff. Better and better spells. If you have access to non-core spells, I'm fairly certain that you could find quite a few things that would help you.

Harm is precisely the kind of thing I DON'T want to be doing.

"I touch you now you take a crapload of damage because Wizards of the Coast is silly"

If I'm doing damage, it'll be by the sword. As for noncore spells... I scoured the books. I found mostly everything that would interest me and most of it lies before 5th level.

[Troacctid]

I guess then the easy answer is that no, you don't really need spells in combat, but there's plenty you can do with them outside combat, like divination, long-duration buffs, teleportation, and all manner of utility stuff. That's where the real power is--expanding your options, shifting paradigms.

Also, you could use higher-level slots to quicken spells. That's pretty solid on a Crusader, since nearly all your maneuvers are standard action strikes.

[Metahuman1]

Well, Maybe take Crusader into Ur-Priest with a modified fluff of (I take the power of the wicked away from them that it may be turned on them in just retribution." or something, and take that for a couple of levels, and then go RKV. Fewer levels spent putzing around not fully advancing martial maneuvers, AND More casting. Make an affiliation ala Player's handbook 2 that's a holy order that causes Prestige Paladin levels to fully advance maneuvers and pick up Prestige Paladin at the end of RKV with battle blessing, and maybe a paladin AFC for the mount that will scale better, and boom. Bonus points if your using DMM to keep the buffs up all day.

[defiantdan]

Harm is precisely the kind of thing I DON'T want to be doing.

"I touch you now you take a crapload of damage because Wizards of the Coast is silly"

If I'm doing damage, it'll be by the sword. As for noncore spells... I scoured the books. I found mostly everything that would interest me and most of it lies before 5th level.

Most of the spells I listed were much better than Harm (especially since harm is awful), they mostly make you better at swinging a sword or help prevent you from dying. Losing out on 9th level spells will really hurt your sword swinging. Shapechange is how you become a mega beatstick. Prior to that with visage of the diety + a friendly wizard polymorph you can not take the form of some pretty scary outsiders. There's very little in TOB that matches the versatility and power of spells. Especially 9th.

[OldTrees1]

Most of the spells I listed were much better than Harm (especially since harm is awful), they mostly make you better at swinging a sword or help prevent you from dying. Losing out on 9th level spells will really hurt your sword swinging. Shapechange is how you become a mega beatstick. Prior to that with visage of the diety + a friendly wizard polymorph you can not take the form of some pretty scary outsiders. There's very little in TOB that matches the versatility and power of spells. Especially 9th.

I don't think you are listening to the OP. The OP wants to focus on Maneuvers not on spells. What suggestions do you have that don't mention spells?

[lsfreak]

I didn't need CL beyond 7 for this build.

Well, if you're not going beyond CL7, you're going to have trouble with dispelling. As in, enemies will be able to dispel the buffs you do have really easily (though it's mitigated with Practiced Spellcaster, Prayer Beads, etc). Not taking cleric early also delays when you get the buffs, rather significantly: straight cleric gets Divine Power/GMW at 7th level, a cleric4/crusader1 gets them at 9th, but crusader4/cleric1 doesn't get it until 13th level. Unless you play long-lasting games, level up abnormally quickly, or start at high levels, you're likely to not get much use out of the spells you're aiming to get before the campaign is over. Of course, if you go cleric-heavy you'd be delaying maneuvers, though not as much as crusader-heavy delays spells.

[OldTrees1]

Well, if you're not going beyond CL7, you're going to have trouble with dispelling. As in, enemies will be able to dispel the buffs you do have really easily (though it's mitigated with Practiced Spellcaster, Prayer Beads, etc).


The idea is that there will never be a time when this character is actually RELIANT on spells in combat. He's not a magicky guy. There is no swag in that.

Yeah, I don't think he is too worried about Dispel Magic despite having a lower cl.

[Sian]

obivously the opinion is that the OP fails at D&D due to the fact that he doesn't want to play GOD... get a grip people, OP asked for what basicly is a crusader with a only a smidgen of caster, not for accusasions of being an idiot since he doesn't want to play Wiz 10/Incarnatrix10 or something even more broken

[atemu1234]

obivously the opinion is that the OP fails at D&D due to the fact that he doesn't want to play GOD... get a grip people, OP asked for what basicly is a crusader with a only a smidgen of caster, not for accusasions of being an idiot since he doesn't want to play Wiz 10/Incarnatrix10 or something even more broken

I take offense to that.

Wizard 4 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 1 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Tainted Sorcerer 2 / Dweomerkeeper 5.

If you mock me, do it right.

Edit: Not a functioning build. However, if you drop a level of Dweomerkeeper for a level of contemplative, you get: Dual 9ths, the ability to spontaneously convert those ninths to Greater Celerity or the like, and (if you become, say, a necropolitan) you can get a taint score in the hundreds, be SAD for your spells, and have lots of bonus spells. Of course, I do not endorse this.

[Elric VIII]

A little late to the party here, but I had a build like this and I very much enjoyed using the spontaneous divine casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant along with the equivalent of 11th level casting. However, I felt much like you in that I did not wish to cast higher level spells, so what I did was simply cast my spells with metamagic (quicken + easy metamagic to cast 3rd level spells as switft actions in 6thlevel slots).

I went with cleric 2/crusader 3/RKV 10/cleric 3/crusader 2. The ending cleric and crusader levels were spaced out to get the maneuvers I wanted, but other than that this build worked out very well, was simple, and was fun.

The main thing is that extra spellcaster levels let you metamagic the low level spells that fit your build and you lose very little in exchange for it. Having 4 more crusader levels instead of cleric levels ammounts to 1 more stance known and 2 more maneuvers known. Taking out the 1th level of RKV for crusader gives you an additional stance (and although the 6th level crusader stances are nice, I'd rather just use a feat on it and get it at level 15 rather than 20).

[RoyVG]

I remember having a character which looked something like this: Paladin 4/Crusader1/Pious Templar 1 or 2/RKV X/whatever (never finished RKV, he died before that happened, also Cleric was bannned in that campaign so the only source of Turn Undead was Paladin 4)

I took the spell-less Paladin Variant (instead I got a bonus feat at 4th level) and asked my DM if I could consider the Pious Templar spell list as Paladin spells for the Battle Blessing feat (he approved). This build gives you Lvl 4 paladin spells at the same level as a straight Paladin 14 (I believe), though at higher levels you will have less spells (but you have maneuvers to make up for it, Paladin 14 doesn't). Its a bit MAD, though... (just a bit).

Preferably you want to be Initiator level 4 before you enter RKV because it gives a stance at level 1 and you may want to have that one, Crusader 3/Cleric 2 or Crusader4/Cleric1 would be much better in that regard, the build above does not get that, or you need to incorporate one additional level of Crusader or 2 Paladin/Templar levels. If you take only 1 or 2 Cleric levels, see if you can convert them to Cloistered Cleric levels, you only lose 1 or 2 hp on average but get some extra skill points, a free domain and a couple of spells (including divine Identify, so no arcane material component).

[Windrammer]

obivously the opinion is that the OP fails at D&D due to the fact that he doesn't want to play GOD... get a grip people, OP asked for what basicly is a crusader with a only a smidgen of caster, not for accusasions of being an idiot since he doesn't want to play Wiz 10/Incarnatrix10 or something even more broken

:smallcool:

[atemu1234]

:smallcool:

This is just a small question but, what's the main thing you're looking for here? It seems like you wanted a character optimized, but were questioning its functionality for the niche you wanted to fill. There ARE buffs above the level you're looking at, so cleric definitely isn't a waste, but you seem opposed to the idea of it? Might I ask why? :smallconfused:

[FocusWolf413]

This is just a small question but, what's the main thing you're looking for here? It seems like you wanted a character optimized, but were questioning its functionality for the niche you wanted to fill. There ARE buffs above the level you're looking at, so cleric definitely isn't a waste, but you seem opposed to the idea of it? Might I ask why? :smallconfused:

He wanted the flavor of a swordmaster who dabbles in divine magic, not the other way around.

[atemu1234]

He wanted the flavor of a swordmaster who dabbles in divine magic, not the other way around.

So? Flavor is whatever you want it. "Dabbles in" =/= barely competent with.

[Studoku]

Well, if you're not going beyond CL7, you're going to have trouble with dispelling. As in, enemies will be able to dispel the buffs you do have really easily (though it's mitigated with Practiced Spellcaster, Prayer Beads, etc). Not taking cleric early also delays when you get the buffs, rather significantly: straight cleric gets Divine Power/GMW at 7th level, a cleric4/crusader1 gets them at 9th, but crusader4/cleric1 doesn't get it until 13th level. Unless you play long-lasting games, level up abnormally quickly, or start at high levels, you're likely to not get much use out of the spells you're aiming to get before the campaign is over. Of course, if you go cleric-heavy you'd be delaying maneuvers, though not as much as crusader-heavy delays spells.
Ring of counterspells with a dispel magic (greater dispel magic at higher levels if you have a party member who can cast it for you) in it. Never leave home without it.

[OldTrees1]

So? Flavor is whatever you want it. "Dabbles in" =/= barely competent with.

And apparently the OP considered 4th level spells to be enough for his concept. So are there any reasons for Cleric 2 that do not mention 5th+ level slots?

[ben-zayb]

To answer from a nonspellcasting-related PoV, more Cleric levels improve your barely existent Turning/Rebuking abilities by a smidgen.:smallsigh:

[OldTrees1]

To answer from a nonspellcasting-related PoV, more Cleric levels improve your barely existent Turning/Rebuking abilities by a smidgen.:smallsigh:

Are there any domain powers that scale with cleric level that are much better at 2 than at 1?
IIRC The Improved Magic Domain power is create 1 charge / day / 2 cleric levels.

[Elric VIII]

And apparently the OP considered 4th level spells to be enough for his concept. So are there any reasons for Cleric 2 that do not mention 5th+ level slots?

If you look closely, the OP said that "there are no spells beyond the 4th level that I care about." A few people, myself included, have mentioned that metamagic on lower level spells in those higher level slots allows you to actually do that combat stuff without wasting actions on spellcasting. Quicken spell is a very good thing for magic/melee hybrids.

Additionally, those extra caster levels make the OP's GMW and similar last long enough and have a better effect. Honestly, when it comes to a melee cleric, cleric 20 does it really well. OP hit the nail on the head in saying that the bread and butter of such a build is largely level 4 or lower. Remember that just because you have those slots doesn't mean that you have to prepare high level spells.

But seriously, the big thing is that not eating up your actions and having a relevant duration are very important and require a decent caster level.

Things you might want to look into are:


Extend spell - +1 level to double the duration.
Quicken spell - +4 levels to cast as a swift action.
Chain spell - +3 levels to affect 1 additional target per CL (great to buff the whole party with GMW, etc)
Persist spell - +6 levels to make a spell last 24 hours. This one is a little hard to make use of with limited CLs, but it's worth mentioning if you ever want a more casting-oriented build.

[Sam K]

The holy warrior feat runs off of the highest war domain spell you have memorized, doesn't it? That could be a cool reason for a melee rkv to want higher level spells. Extra damage is nice.

[atemu1234]

If you want optimization, go Human, take flaws for Educated and Skill Knowledge, take Otyugh Hole, go Ur-Priest 4 / Crusader 6 / RKV 10.

If not, then there's still not much of a reason, build- wise, to not take six levels of cleric. Cleric isn't always a support or non-melee role, anyway.

[Sian]

If you want optimization, go Human, take flaws for Educated and Skill Knowledge, take Otyugh Hole, go Ur-Priest 4 / Crusader 6 / RKV 10.

If not, then there's still not much of a reason, build- wise, to not take six levels of cleric. Cleric isn't always a support or non-melee role, anyway.

do note that Ur-Priest and RKV are mutually exclusive unless DM accept refluffing of RKV to follow another deity (or in the case of Ur-Priest, no deity at all)

[prufock]

Simply put, you get more out of a level of cleric (or that 9th level of RKV) than a level of crusader. But if you aren't interested in 5th level spells, it doesn't matter, since that's what you're getting.

Crusader 10: +1 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 IL, 4+int skill points, d10 hp, +1 maneuver readied.
Cleric 2: +1 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 Will, +1 IL, 2+int skill points, d8 hp, +1 level of spellcasting (gaining 5th level spell slots) +1 level for turning checks.
RKV 10: +1 BAB, +1 Will, +1 IL, 4+int skill points, d8 hp, +1 maneuver known.

Note that you take your cleric level early in order to maximize the level of your maneuvers.

[Windrammer]

This is just a small question but, what's the main thing you're looking for here? It seems like you wanted a character optimized, but were questioning its functionality for the niche you wanted to fill. There ARE buffs above the level you're looking at, so cleric definitely isn't a waste, but you seem opposed to the idea of it? Might I ask why? :smallconfused:

I never wanted to optimize, quite simply. I just wanted to make an efficient build within the proper parameters of flavor. I shun higher buffs because they provide trivial bonuses and little more to have fun with, as opposed to the higher maneuvers and, of course, the stance of immortal fortitude.

[atemu1234]

I never wanted to optimize, quite simply. I just wanted to make an efficient build within the proper parameters of flavor. I shun higher buffs because they provide trivial bonuses and little more to have fun with, as opposed to the higher maneuvers and, of course, the stance of immortal fortitude.

Nitpicks: for one, the buffs are quite substantial. Secondly, there are few if any substantial differences between manemaneuvers and spells.

[Windrammer]

Nitpicks: for one, the buffs are quite substantial. Secondly, there are few if any substantial differences between manemaneuvers and spells.
There are. I spent quite a while studying different combinations of levels. Crusader was originally going to be only a level or two. I gradually decided to forgo the cutesy spells and rely on a few choice buffs - divine power, divine favor, etc. And I wanted a few high level maneuvers and stances that would be unavailable with any more cleric levels. This way is cooler. I've already gone over every relevant buff spell that isn't from the freaking dragon magazine and decided I wasn't interested. I don't care about high level utility spells either, that's not my role here. We already have a cleric.

[Windrammer]

So? Flavor is whatever you want it. "Dabbles in" =/= barely competent with.
Flavor is whatever I want in it? Ok. Well, this is what I want in it: being a cool warrior with a small touch of magical ability, and not a cheesy clericzilla.

Dabbles=\=barely competent in? Why not =? That's pretty much in line with the definition of "dabbles". Bare competence is what I was shooting for anyways. My strength will lie in natural ability. A pure cleric would be stronger, but it would also be a lame, hollow lie of a warrior. You're not a talented fighter, you're a cheater. Without spells you'd be done for. That's not interesting to me, even though I would be able to do this safely in this campaign. It's just not cool unless you don't care about your lore and RP.

[Windrammer]

Nitpicks: for one, the buffs are quite substantial. Secondly, there are few if any substantial differences between manemaneuvers and spells.

Nothing more immediately substantial than divine power. I need a good AB, that's it. I don't need DR or special resistances. It's nice, but I like the ToB abilities much better. That's not to say they are, but they're certainly cooler and more fun.

[Sam K]

The big thing with 5th level spells is righteous might. The size increase is a huge advantage for a melee because it means you can hit things further away. Hitting harder is nice as well, but range is the real advantage. More reach=more AoO=more awesome! Still, obviously, if you don't care much about spells, taking more cleric levels doesn't make much sense, but you knew that.

And maneuvers are def. different than spells. If you heal with a spell, you're praying to your god to please heal your wounds. If you heal with a devoted spirit strike, you hit someone so hard THEIR HP DECIDES TO LEAVE AND COME LIVE WITH YOU INSTEAD! I know which I think is cooler!

[atemu1234]

The big thing with 5th level spells is righteous might. The size increase is a huge advantage for a melee because it means you can hit things further away. Hitting harder is nice as well, but range is the real advantage. More reach=more AoO=more awesome! Still, obviously, if you don't care much about spells, taking more cleric levels doesn't make much sense, but you knew that.

And maneuvers are def. different than spells. If you heal with a spell, you're praying to your god to please heal your wounds. If you heal with a devoted spirit strike, you hit someone so hard THEIR HP DECIDES TO LEAVE AND COME LIVE WITH YOU INSTEAD! I know which I think is cooler!

And that is fluff, not even the right fluff.

Both actually require you to be devoted to a deity.

Also, as to the "cheesy clericzilla" I'm simply suggesting a more powerful route, I have not yet begun to cheese. Cheese is sketchy, technical, barely rules-legal. What I suggest is not only completely rules-legal, but simple.

[Sam K]

And that is fluff, not even the right fluff.

Both actually require you to be devoted to a deity.

Also, as to the "cheesy clericzilla" I'm simply suggesting a more powerful route, I have not yet begun to cheese. Cheese is sketchy, technical, barely rules-legal. What I suggest is not only completely rules-legal, but simple.

Oh, I'm not arguing that progressing spellcasting (especially in a way that doesn't significantly reduce your IL) is a more powerful way. But I do think the "feel" of spellcasting and maneuvers is quite different; strikes require you to be in the middle of combat and hit things, whereas spells do not (and it is preferable, though by no means required, to cast spells when you're not being poked to death). Spells get used up for the day, while maneuvers are usable over and over (this could matter, but to most it won't).

I personally quite like a piece of cheese (and maybe some crackers) with my gaming, but I can see how the OP would prefer the flavor of martial strikes over higher level spells, even though the spells are more flexible and powerful.

And as for my fluff not being right; considering the standard of WotCs fluff, I shall take that as a compliment. :)

[ben-zayb]

Crusaders don't require a deity, actually, just as Paladins don't have that requirement. Moreover, clerics never require a deity either. The closest base class to have such fluff and mechanical requirement (arguably not mechanically, even) is a Favored Soul.

[Windrammer]

The big thing with 5th level spells is righteous might. The size increase is a huge advantage for a melee because it means you can hit things further away. Hitting harder is nice as well, but range is the real advantage. More reach=more AoO=more awesome! Still, obviously, if you don't care much about spells, taking more cleric levels doesn't make much sense, but you knew that.

Enlarge person will do it for you too. Although I have to confess at this point... I never liked the idea of being enlarged. Feels dorky. I like to stay the normal size.

[Windrammer]

And Also, as to the "cheesy clericzilla" I'm simply suggesting a more powerful route, I have not yet begun to cheese. Cheese is sketchy, technical, barely rules-legal. What I suggest is not only completely rules-legal, but simple.

Sorry for my choice of words, I was just dismissing the notion of pursuing cleric power to that extent, because it's not very cool. No matter how you spin it, that is a character that has to temporarily borrow general martial power from elsewhere. I just wanted enough cleric to pad the build with a couple buffs. With divine power, divine favor, and greater magic weapon, under the practiced spellcaster feat, the measly two cleric levels of this build yield an extra +10 to hit and +13 to damage +12 to hit and +16 to damage with a th weapon. That's plenty! Things like righteous might bet you some tankiness, but so does Crusader, and Crusader's doesn't have a limited duration.

[atemu1234]

Sorry for my choice of words, I was just dismissing the notion of pursuing cleric power to that extent, because it's not very cool. No matter how you spin it, that is a character that has to temporarily borrow general martial power from elsewhere. I just wanted enough cleric to pad the build with a couple buffs. With divine power, divine favor, and greater magic weapon, under the practiced spellcaster feat, the measly two cleric levels of this build yield +10 to hit and +13 to damage with a th weapon. That's plenty! Things like righteous might bet you some tankiness, but so does Crusader, and Crusader's doesn't have a limited duration.

Alright, I'll stop arguing at this point. One last thing, though: Clerics are cool.

[lsfreak]

With divine power, divine favor, and greater magic weapon, under the practiced spellcaster feat, the measly two cleric levels of this build yield +10 to hit and +13 to damage with a th weapon. That's plenty!

Like I said, I think something to consider is how long it will be delayed. You're not getting 4th level spells until 12th level if you're entering with cleric 2/crusader 3. If your games are like many that I've played, that's about the time the campaign is wrapping up, in which case it might be worth going heavier into cleric early so that you get more use out of the spells, or going crusader3/cleric1/swordsage1, grabbing some extra 1st and 2nd level maneuvers early through swordsage, and forgetting the buffs. Or do the latter and later retrain your swordsage level into a cleric level once the extra maneuvers are low-enough level you don't feel you're getting much use out of them.

[Windrammer]

Like I said, I think something to consider is how long it will be delayed. You're not getting 4th level spells until 12th level if you're entering with cleric 2/crusader 3. If your games are like many that I've played, that's about the time the campaign is wrapping up, in which case it might be worth going heavier into cleric early so that you get more use out of the spells, or going crusader3/cleric1/swordsage1, grabbing some extra 1st and 2nd level maneuvers early through swordsage, and forgetting the buffs. Or do the latter and later retrain your swordsage level into a cleric level once the extra maneuvers are low-enough level you don't feel you're getting much use out of them.

That is a pretty important point, yes. It's fun to fantasize about how it all comes together at level 20 but it needs to be a bearable journey there. But we're starting at level 8, which is a very comfortable spot for a multiclass build like this imo. I feel like level retraining would be a bit much to ask of the DM in this campaign too.

[Keld Denar]

Divine Power isn't really gonna be worth it for you. You'll have 19/20 BAB from your build, so the BAB part of Divine Power is only +1 to hit or +2 to max damage via Power Attack. The +6 Str is also pretty wasted since you'll likely want to have a +Str belt of at least +4 by the time you can cast it which overlaps to only a +2 bonus on top of your existing belt. Always on bonuses >>> casting buffs to get it. The +temp HP from Divine Power will also be low, since you CL will likely only be 7. So really all you are getting out of Divine Power is +2ish to hit and +1 damage with the PA potential. Contrast that with Divine Favor, a 1st level spell, which at CL 7 will grant +2 to hit and damage, and its a luck bonus so it stacks with most things. Contrast all you get from Divine Power with Righteous Might, which grants stackable size bonuses to stats, along with the size increase which increases base weapon damage.

If you do get a 5th level slot from the Clr2/Cru3/RKVX, you have the potential to get Quicken Divine Favor which gets you in to the combat faster with about the same increase in effectiveness.

Also, don't completely neglect the potential of Practiced Spellcaster even if you don't want the higher level buffs. Higher CL results in better resistance to dispels, longer durations, and better benefits from buffs like Greater Magic Weapon and the above mentioned Divine Favor which jumps to +3 hit/damage.

The goal is to streamline the magic seamlessly into the melee. Long duration buffs and swift action spells are what you want to be looking for. That way, you spend less rounds buffing and more rounds swinging, which ultimately is the goal of the build, right?

[Endarire]

A higher CL also affects your magic vestment spell.

RKV10 grants you access to the Shadow Hand discipline and +1 maneuver known. Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink are useful to take eventually.

What about going Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) for the bonus skills? Use a longspear and crossbow at level 1 then upgrade your arsenal at Crusader1.

[Windrammer]

A higher CL also affects your magic vestment spell.

RKV10 grants you access to the Shadow Hand discipline and +1 maneuver known. Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink are useful to take eventually.

What about going Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) for the bonus skills? Use a longspear and crossbow at level 1 then upgrade your arsenal at Crusader1.

Hmm... Cloistered Cleric makes the Knowledge Devotion feat work, and that would tie in very well with what's going on in the campaign. We'll be doing a lot of monster/exotic bad guy hunting.

[Sam K]

I'm actually playing a cloistered cleric going into RKV right now; starting at level 1 though. Still, the knowledge devotion and extra skills will make things so much easier, if you can do it you def. should. You lose some HP (doesn't really matter past the first levels) and BAB (more annoying, but managable) but you'll have a much easier time meeting the prereqs for RKV and still maintaining some decent ranks in other skills.

While the extra spells and lore skill isn't earth shattering, they add some nice flexibility - if you don't want to do alot of casting in combat, you could use the divination spells to be a seer-warrior. Bonus points for every time you can say "I have forseen it"!

[KingSmitty]

cloistered cleric uses the poor base attack bonus, for use to get more spells? i thought that was against what we wanted here

[Windrammer]

cloistered cleric uses the poor base attack bonus, for use to get more spells? i thought that was against what we wanted here

It won't actually matter since I'm not going past cleric 2. The difference between poor and average BAB doesn't come into play until the next level.