Gollum vs. Belkar

[Fighteer]

Okay, since we had to do some LotR vs. OotS fights, let's take one that's actually reasonably comparable. :smallsigh:

Gollum = sneaky, homicidal, used to be a halfling.
Belkar = sneaky, homicidal, is a halfling.

Ignore D&D stats, since they are ridiculous anyway. Just take the characters on their respective literary and intellectual merits/flaws and observed physical prowess.

Strangely enough, on this one the movie Gollum is actually an almost perfect representation of the character in the book, so use whichever you prefer.

[Assassinfox]

Belkar. No contest.

[Hinton]

Belkar. While Gollum sits and whines about his "precious" and how life's not fair, Belkar unleashes the stabbity-stab; fight's over.

[Legendary]

Yeah, Belkar.

This is as fair as Gandalf vs. Elan.

A fair contest would be Gimli vs. Durkon, Gimli's sheer fighting ability countered by Durkon's healing and Thor's Might...

[NeonRonin]

Belkar, obviously. The guy carries HOW many daggers on him? He throws a bunch, turning Gollum into a dartboard, then rushes in and makes himself a nice new Gollum hat.

Which brings up an odd point... would a Gollum hat be better or worse quality than a kobold hat? :smalltongue:

[Innis Cabal]

Belkar....no contest

[Fighteer]

I was thinking that, with Belkar's poor Survival and Spot checks, Gollum would simply ambush him from hiding, strangle him, and dump him in a hole somewhere, after feasting a bit on his flesh, precious.

After all, it's hard to hit what you can't find.

[jindra34]

I was thinking that, with Belkar's poor Survival and Spot checks, Gollum would simply ambush him from hiding, strangle him, and dump him in a hole somewhere, after feasting a bit on his flesh, precious.

After all, it's hard to hit what you can't find.

Devil's advocate eehhh?

[Fighteer]

Devil's advocate eehhh?
Wouldn't have asked the question if I didn't have an answer in mind, now would I? :smallwink:

I think that Belkar is far too short-sighted to come up with effective tactical plans; therefore anything other than putting him in a featureless 10x10 cell with Gollum gives the sneak the advantage.

[Threeshades]

Yup. If even Frodo can get Gollum into a position to be easily stabbed, Belkar has no problem at all.

Just to scene it quickly:
Gollum (seeing the Ring of Jumping +20): MY PRECIOUS! YOU STOLE MY PRECIOUS! (Jumps on top of Belkar)
:belkar: : Time to try my new feat "stab uglies" (stabs Gollum)
Gollum (bleeding and falling off of Belkar): NOOOOO MY PRECIOUS, my precious.... (dies)
:belkar: (stabs Gollums corpse several times mor than severs its upper jaw from the rest of the body and uses it either as hat or football or nacho bowl)

[Woot Spitum]

Gollum has nearly Splinter-Cell caliber sneaking skills, even without the ring. Belkar gets strangled. People forget how much of Gollum's snivveling is an act.The guy survived for many years on a diet of orcs (occasionally augmented by fish) that he killed himself. I'd have to take Gollum's nearly preternatural senses against Belkar's low wisdom any day.

[DLouve]

on the other hand, gollum is amazing for survival...
so the fight would take a while, I think. and if Belkar has the ONE RING, then gollum wins the fight and get it back ! lol

[Icewalker]

Yeah, in straight combat, Belkar would slaughter him.

If it is more open than that, Gollum might be able to strangle him down.

[Finwe]

Even if Gollum were to sneak up on Belkar and attempt to strangle him, I'm not sure he'd be able too. Belkar, though small, it probably pretty strong, and he can also rage, which would help him break Gollum's grip. Also, there's nothing stopping Belkar from reaching behind himself and stabbing Gollum - stabbing kills people much faster than strangling. It might be a close fight if Gollum got the jump on Belkar (which he undoubtedly would), but I think Belkar would ultimately slaughter Gollum.

[Bel_Bel]

Belkar wins because he is awesome.

[warhammerfire]

belkar, he is MORE homicidal

[Legendary]

Just let this thread die like the others did, fiends!

*hopes no one notices that HE made on of those threads*

[Gaelbert]

I'd have to say Belkar. Gollum couldn't even take down a hobbit, even when Gollum had the one ring.

[Hushdawg]

Gollum wasn't exactly a halfling. He was from a race of river folk that were similar to halflings.

For that reason he would have an advantage over Belkar in a river area.

In a straight fight, Belkar would slash Gollum up hands down. However, in a more real-world scenario; Gollum would use his +10 bonus to sneak and gain an upper hand on Belkar.

It would definitely be an interesting fight if Gollum were to initiate the attack.

[Legendary]

in a more real-world scenario; Gollum would use his +10 bonus to sneak and gain an upper hand on Belkar.
Dude, you can get +10 bonuses in the real world??

[the_tick_rules]

Belkar. Gollum couldn't even handle a hobbit or two.

[brian c]

Wouldn't have asked the question if I didn't have an answer in mind, now would I? :smallwink:

I think that Belkar is far too short-sighted to come up with effective tactical plans; therefore anything other than putting him in a featureless 10x10 cell with Gollum gives the sneak the advantage.

I direct you here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html).

If Gollum could sneak up behind, he would probably win. In a straight up fight, edge goes to Belkar but not overwhelmingly.

[Fighteer]

Gollum was able to be captured by Sam and Frodo because:

a) They knew about him and expected him to be following them.
b) Frodo had the Ring and knew that Gollum wanted it; therefore it was easy to prey on his greed to lure him into a trap.

Let's compare that with Belkar, who is almost catatonic in his disregard for his surroundings and the motivations of other people.

Gollum has more advantages here than most of you realize.

But yes, I suppose we should let the thread die. I started it mainly to poke fun at the other threads.

Edit:


I direct you here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html).

If Gollum could sneak up behind, he would probably win. In a straight up fight, edge goes to Belkar but not overwhelmingly.
What that strip shows is that Belkar is capable of tactical planning when he is particularly devoted to accomplishing a task: namely provoking Miko into betraying her alignment. You can also point to the hornet incident with V as an example of this.

I admit that a flaw in my original post (as with all of these "vs" posts) is a convincing reason for the two characters to fight each other, besides simple antagonism. Gollum favors hiding over confrontation, and unless he managed to offend Belkar somehow, Belkar wouldn't waste the time of day to acknowledge his existence.

[Gallanoth]

Belkar FTW!
Gollum being himself would get the jump on Belkar, but would ultimately fail since the jugular bleeds out precious oxygen faster then the depriving strangle does.

[Payne]

Gollum, except in a straight fight.

If they have a go in a 10x10 room: Belkar.
If they have time, an environment etc: Most likely Gollum.

If Gollum bluffs and tries to worm Belkar into pitying him: he's dead. If he goes all out instead he may stand a chance (edge goes to Belkar still, because, well, he has edged weapons).

Like said before, Gollum isnt weak: it's an act.
He's a murderous sociopath who will do ANYTHING to survive, whether it's never going for a straight fight by sneaking on the helpless or crawl like a worm for pity.
He strangles orcs and HAS survived 600+ years on his own.

[The Corinthian]

I'm quite sure he's far from that old. And the thing about his tenacity and or/pathetic sniveling is that he's a schizophrenic. Smeagol is a wimp, Gollum is a psychopatic, obsessed killer.

[baerdith]

I'm quite sure he's far from that old.
Well, how about 579??


Gollum wasn't exactly a halfling. He was from a race of river folk that were similar to halflings.
He wasn't like the Hobbits of Frodo and Sam's age, but only because he was 500 years older. Kinda like you are 'similar' to Shakespeare, but are not like him.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp?url=http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/smeagol.html

[Fighteer]

I'm quite sure he's far from that old. And the thing about his tenacity and or/pathetic sniveling is that he's a schizophrenic. Smeagol is a wimp, Gollum is a psychopatic, obsessed killer.
Once again, the movie slightly overstresses the "schizophrenic" part of Gollum's nature. He talks to himself because that's the only person he's had to talk to for centuries. "Smeagol" is the part of him that remembers what it's like to live in the light, have friendships, be trustworthy, etc. "Gollum" is the hate filled creature that lusts after the ring. But both sides of him live in and are the same person. They don't have an internal tug of war in the same way that a truly schizoid person does.

Think of them as his "good conscience" and "evil conscience", rather than fractured halves of his psyche, and you'll be much closer to the idea that Tolkien wished to convey.

As for his age, it helps if you actually pay attention. Even the movies got that one right: "For five hundred years it poisoned his mind..." Gollum was in possession of the ring for five centuries between the time he pulled it out of the river Anduin until he lost it to Bilbo. He wasn't a newborn baby when he obtained it, and Bilbo kept it for over sixty years before the events in Lord of the Rings.

[Angela Christine]

Gollum is hundreds of years old and very sneaky.

Belkar is good with a dagger and very good with snarky comments. He is completely unable to make spot checks or listen checks (though his "smell" checks are pretty good).


In open terrain Belkar isn't going to see Gollum until he attacks. Remember #270 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)? It would be like that, but without the taunting.


I think it would come down to what class, feats and level Gollum has. Sure, he spent hundreds of years underground killing and eating orcs, but he was probably killing them one at a time. A lone orc isn't a whole heap of XP. It is entirely possible that Belkar has done more killing in his comparatively short life than Gollum, because adventurers kill all the time. But Gollum isn't some level 1 nobody, catching a fish or rabbit with your bare hands takes some mad skills. Normally fighting unarmed against an armed opponent is a really bad idea, but since it appears that Gollum never uses weapons, it would be reasonable to assume he has specialized in unarmed combat. With his unarmed (and nearly naked) combat abilities and his sneakiness, Gollum almost seems like he could be a monk, which could go a long way to negating his disadvantages.




In open terrain with an unlimited amount of time, I'm going to give the edge to Gollum. Belkar won't even see Gollum until Gollum attacks. Gollum just has to be clever enough to pick a moment when Belkar isn't expecting it, and isn't heavily armed.

In a cage match I'll give the edge to Belkar. But even in a confined space I don't think it would be over quickly. Gollum can climb like a spider and would probably be pretty good at dodging thrown knives, you have to catch him before you can kill him.

[fangthane]

With his unarmed (and nearly naked) combat abilities and his sneakiness, Gollum almost seems like he could be a monk, which could go a long way to negating his disadvantages.
Problem. Gollum's fixated, but he's not what I (or I suspect most) would consider lawful, by any stretch of the definition.

If Belkar's asleep, I'd give the edge to Gollum for certain. Under just about any other circumstances, Mr. Stabbity gets the nod. It'd be close if he's caught unawares, as is certainly possible, but even at a penalty he's going to be scoring raging hits with lethal weapons and Gollum is going to lose a lot of blood in not a lot of time. Gollum may be able to solo an orc, and that's not entirely unimpressive - but Belkar can solo a hydra. Obviously, if Belkar sees him coming he's nothing more than shark bait.

[Fingolfin]

It would be interesting to see that occurrence in the one of the few last comics when Belkar was talking with his little conceous devils. That would be nice to see, Belkar double personality talk as we have seen Gollum in the movies. Actually both of them struggled over a similar thing, so it might have been quite good. :)

[Tolkien_Freak]

Answers:
Plain room: Belkar, he actually has a weapon.
Normal terrain: Gollum, he can sneak up on people.

Yay, we're doing one that actually makes SENSE!!

[BisectedBrioche]

Belkar's primary advantage in his fights with Miko was her lack of search/spot checks. Gollum probably has much better spot checks, plus he might have the ability to turn invisible via the One Ring.

For that reason, I say Gollum.