(3.5) Monk Multiclassing Question

[Fac3Value]

Hi Everyone,

I'm trying to make a dex-based duelist build. Right now, I'm taking Fighter 4 for extra feats (and the ability to take weapon specialization), and then mostly Rogue and Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw. However, I'm considering putting 2 levels into Monk because of how easy it would be to get Deflect Arrow (and some cheese I could do depending on this post). However, this raises a few questions:

I would be wielding only a main-hand rapier. Firstly, is it possible for me to both jab at someone with the rapier and try to punch them with my empty off-hand in a full attack? I would assume so, and that it would be like attacking with 2 weapons, counting the second weapon (my fist) as light, without the TWF feat, for a -4/-8 penalty.

However, what if I were to take Monk? In the Monk class description, it says there is no such thing as an offhand for Monks attacking unarmed. So what happens with the two-weapon fighting penalties now?

Also, since I've got Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler, does that apply to unarmed, since it is considered a light weapon?

While I'm at it, what are the rules for what makes something "off-hand?" Can I call the rapier hand main and the empty off, even if I attack with the empty hand first in a full attack? Or does attacking with the empty hand first automatically make it my main hand?

Finally, could I apply stunning fist to my empty hand (not saying offhand because there's no such thing with Monks :D) punch attack? In my head my full-round attack looks like this: Begin by stunning-fisting my target with my empty off-hand, depriving them of their Dex bonus. Follow that with an attack from my rapier, which would apply sneak attack damage from my Rogue/Swash levels with Daring Outlaw.

If the above isn't really possible, I probably won't take Monk levels. I'm already losing flurry of blows and the AC bonus because I'll be wearing light armor, so it's not worth wasting levels only for Deflect Arrow.

Thanks for any help you can give me. I'm really new at theorizing builds like this.

[Hiro Quester]

Monk's flurry of blows only works with Monk weapons.


When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

So no rapier as part of a flurry of blows.

But if you want to just use Stunning Fist, it looks like you could use it as a first or second TWF attack. But since you only get to use it once/day (twice if you have 2 levels of Monk), using it with such negatives would probably have a good chance of failing and ruining the attempt.

If you were going to use stunning fist, I'd hit him with your offhand at full bonuses. and let other party members take advantage of his being stunned.

Using your rapier as a second attack is going to give you -4 to this SF attack. It's a once or twice a day resource. Don't waste it by getting greedy and taking negatives on the attack.

And you can't make a second attack only if the first hits. You have to declare that you are TWFing and take the penalty on the first SF hit if you intend to follow up with a second hit.

So you could only use sneak-attack with flat-footed bonuses for your second attack if you take big risk with your first attack.

A level of Monk can be a valuable thing, in the right build (e.g. I'm currently playing in a Core game a druid with a single level of Monk). I looks like you could make better use of those levels by taking somethig else.

[Red Fel]

However, I'm considering putting 2 levels into Monk because of how easy it would be to get Deflect Arrow (and some cheese I could do depending on this post). However, this raises a few questions:

Like why play Monk? I kid, I kid, only teasing. Let's move on.


I would be wielding only a main-hand rapier. Firstly, is it possible for me to both jab at someone with the rapier and try to punch them with my empty off-hand in a full attack? I would assume so, and that it would be like attacking with 2 weapons, counting the second weapon (my fist) as light, without the TWF feat, for a -4/-8 penalty.

You've got it right. Attacking with a weapon in your main hand (rapier) and in your off (unarmed strike) is dual wielding, with all the baggage that takes. Fortunately, your off hand is considered a light weapon, so the penalties are reduced, as you say.


However, what if I were to take Monk? In the Monk class description, it says there is no such thing as an offhand for Monks attacking unarmed. So what happens with the two-weapon fighting penalties now?

The penalties are there. The clause refers to the fact that, ordinarily, an off hand weapon receives only 1/2 of your Str bonus; the Monk ability says that your unarmed strikes always receive full Str. The clause does not, however, invalidate the two-weapon fighting penalties.


Also, since I've got Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler, does that apply to unarmed, since it is considered a light weapon?

Yes, explicitly.


While I'm at it, what are the rules for what makes something "off-hand?" Can I call the rapier hand main and the empty off, even if I attack with the empty hand first in a full attack? Or does attacking with the empty hand first automatically make it my main hand?

Hold one hand in your "main" and one in your "off," and call them that way. As long as you're taking the appropriate penalties, I know of no RAW that requires one way or the other. Keep in mind, however, that a rapier is a one-handed weapon, not a light weapon; if you wielded it in your off hand, your penalties would go up to -6/-10.


Finally, could I apply stunning fist to my empty hand (not saying offhand because there's no such thing with Monks :D) punch attack? In my head my full-round attack looks like this: Begin by stunning-fisting my target with my empty off-hand, depriving them of their Dex bonus. Follow that with an attack from my rapier, which would apply sneak attack damage from my Rogue/Swash levels with Daring Outlaw.

Yeah, that would work. Stunning Fist merely requires that you declare it before making an attack roll, so you can attack with your unarmed using Stunning Fist, then follow it with blade-based violence.

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah, that would work. Stunning Fist merely requires that you declare it before making an attack roll, so you can attack with your unarmed using Stunning Fist, then follow it with blade-based violence.

It would work. But would it succeed? -6 on your main Stunning Fist and -10 on your rapier. Might be a opening up a big can of Miss on the enemy. Having bigger damage bonuses from sneak attack doesn't help if you miss.

However, if you take TWF feat, and wield a light Monk weapon in your offhand (Sai, Kama, Singham, Nunchaku) in your offhand, then the penalties are only -2 and -2. And weapon finesse still applies.

So if you want to go this route, take TWF as one of the fighter bonus feats.

[IZ42]

You could also take TWF and have it apply to your Unarmed Strike. It IS a light weapon after all.

[TheIronGolem]

Gotta say, OP, you've got a tough row to hoe. Support for this type of melee combat is pretty terrible in 3.5. That said:


I would not recommend that second level of Monk. Deflect Arrows isn't a very good feat, and even if you want it for concept reasons you're probably better off spending a feat slot than dipping Monk any further than necessary.
I would also not recommend more than two Fighter levels, because the same argument applies to Weapon Specialization. More so since Fighter 3 is pretty much a dead level.
In fact, I would only recommend the two Fighter levels if you're feeling feat-starved (a distinct possibility, admittedly), and the Monk level only if you have a pretty good WIS score and/or the sword-plus-punch thing is crucial to your concept. If it's just the latter, consider the Snap Kick feat.
Using Stunning Fist to set up Sneak Attacks on subsequent attacks sounds cool (and is, fluff-wise), but has a pretty short window of effectiveness. The baddies' Fort saves will rapidly outpace your save DC.
Though I am not aware of any that specifically apply to the rapier, there are feats that basically say "treat X as a monk weapon". If you can find such a feat (or convince your DM to make one for you), this will let you flurry with your rapier, thus letting you do the sword-plus-punch thing at only a -2 penalty. If that's not on the table, you might want to just take Two-Weapon Fighting. You need to get those penalties as low as you can, given the BAB you're losing from Rogue/Monk levels.
At some point, a well-meaning player or DM may suggest you take levels in the Duelist PrC. If this happens, remember the words of Admiral Ackbar.

[Red Fel]

Got to agree with a lot of what IronGolem mentioned. Frankly, if all you wanted was Stunning Fist, that's a feat; if all you wanted was unarmed progression, that's two feats (IUS and SUS); if you wanted the bonus attack, Snap Kick is a feat. And as mentioned, Fort saves escalate, and Stunning Fist drops off in utility. That said, one point on which I particularly want to focus:


5. Though I am not aware of any that specifically apply to the rapier, there are feats that basically say "treat X as a monk weapon". If you can find such a feat (or convince your DM to make one for you), this will let you flurry with your rapier, thus letting you do the sword-plus-punch thing at only a -2 penalty. If that's not on the table, you might want to just take Two-Weapon Fighting. You need to get those penalties as low as you can, given the BAB you're losing from Rogue/Monk levels.

There are several feats that do this, including Unorthodox Flurry from Dragon Compendium (treat one light weapon1 as a Monk weapon). There's also at least one PrC, the Shou Disciple. At 3rd level, a Shou Disciple can use any light weapon1 as a Monk weapon for flurry purposes; at 5th, he can use any martial weapon, including the rapier.

If you're open to 3.0 material, the Sohei class (Oriental Adventure, although I think it was updated someplace) gives you a form of flurry that is not limited to Monk weapons, so rapier is okay. The class also gives you Deflect Arrows, if that's something you want. That said, it's a fairly underwhelming class.

If you're willing to backport PF material2, there's also a feat there, Crusader's Flurry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/crusader-s-flurry), that lets a Cleric/Monk use his deity's favored weapon as a Monk weapon for flurry purposes. Note that it requires a Cleric's ability to Channel Energy (Turn Undead), a Monk's flurry ability, and the Weapon Focus feat.

1 Remember, rapier is one-handed, not light.
2 Of course, if you're willing to backport PF material, the Sohei archetype gets rid of a bunch of your Monk abilities - including Stunning Fist - but it lets you flurry with any weapon in your Weapon Training group. Sadly, rapier (light blades) is not one of the Weapon Training groups offered.

[gorfnab]

At some point, a well-meaning player or DM may suggest you take levels in the Duelist PrC. If this happens, remember the words of Admiral Ackbar.
[/LIST]
Might as well get the ball rolling...

One handed "Einhander" Dex/Int based fencer build

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

The Monk and Swashbuckler levels (levels 1 through 5) can be switched around to taste. I personally like Swash 1/ Monk 2/ Swash 2.

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

Here are the some great options for optimizing Combat Expertise/Defensive Fighting that are used in this build. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting)

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.

[Curmudgeon]

Taking a couple of Monk levels will actually hinder your overall Monkishness. (Yes, that's a word — now, at least. :smallwink:) You can get Improved Unarmed Strike granted to you as long as you wear an affordable magic item, Bracers of Striking: only 1,310 gp (Magic of Faerûn, page 155). At higher expense a Fanged Ring grants that plus Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) (Dragon Magic, page 101). You can get improved unarmed damage and 1 + WIS mod to AC, unarmed, with a Monk's Belt. But the big kicker here is Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle, page 33), which gives you the unarmed damage progression of a Small Monk (regardless of your actual size) through level 19. However, that's conditional on you taking no Monk levels. A 2-level Monk dip will actually end up hurting you here: at levels 12 and up Superior Unarmed Strike with no Monk levels will yield greater unarmed damage than the feat with a couple of Monk levels.