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ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 12:27 PM
So I'm doing a thing where my players complete puzzles to get loot and a piece of a key that will lead them forward and one of the Puzzles I wanted to pose was a logic puzzle. I want to do a variation on the Potion Puzzle from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. The Puzzle is as follows:

The Emoji are eggs laid out before players:

:smallmad: :smallfurious: :smallfrown: :smalleek: :smallcool: :smallyuk: :smallconfused:

The clues I have (which I will attempt to compose into a rhyme at some point, but not here) are as follows:


Three of the Eggs are Slaad eggs.
Two of the Eggs are Stone
One Egg contains Treasure
One Egg contains the Key
Neither the furthermost left, furthermost right, nor center egg contains something good.
No Slaad egg is to the immediate right of a Stone Egg


Clues Added After the Fact

2 and 6 are not stone
Treasure is right of stone


I do not know if I have enough clues, because I know which egg is where, so I need some help making sure the puzzle is solvable. Ideally while being provided the fewest possible clues the players should be able to not only deduce the location of the correct eggs, but all the wrong eggs as well.

:smallmad: Is a Slaad egg, :smallfurious: is the key egg, :smallfrown: is a stone egg, :smalleek: is a stone egg, :smallcool:is the treasure egg, :smallyuk: is a slaad egg, :smallconfused: is a slaad egg

Maglubiyet
2015-03-09, 12:45 PM
It's confusing when you say "nor center eggs contains something good". With a spread of 7 eggs there is only one center egg. Or three center eggs.

Do you mean neither the egg on the far left, nor the center, nor the far right contain anything good?

And does "No Slaad egg is to the right of a Stone Egg" mean directly to the right? Or overall? I can see from the answer what you mean, but it's unclear in the text.

After you've established that only the 0 positions can have something good, it's impossible to determine any further.
X 0 0 X 0 0 X

Among other combinations, it could be:
S S T S s K s

or:
S k s s T S S

S = slaad, s = stone

AxeAlex
2015-03-09, 12:49 PM
Hello there,

You need more clues.
I did not look at the answer, but right now there is multiple possibilities:
1, 4 and 7 could be Slaad, 2 and 5 Stone.
Or 1, 2 and 3 could be Slaad, and 4 and 7 could be stone.
Or 1 and 2 could be Stone, and 4, 5 and 7 could be Slaad

You need to try to solve your puzzle yourself, using logical steps to find the solution and that only those steps bring you to only one possible outcome.

That way you can also come up with the clues needed to narrow down the possibilities to one.

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 01:12 PM
Hello there,

You need more clues.
I did not look at the answer, but right now there is multiple possibilities:
1, 4 and 7 could be Slaad, 2 and 5 Stone.
Or 1, 2 and 3 could be Slaad, and 4 and 7 could be stone.
Or 1 and 2 could be Stone, and 4, 5 and 7 could be Slaad

You need to try to solve your puzzle yourself, using logical steps to find the solution and that only those steps bring you to only one possible outcome.

That way you can also come up with the clues needed to narrow down the possibilities to one.

Yeah, not my strongest skill. But this information is handy.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-09, 01:29 PM
Honestly my approach would be to find an automated logic puzzle generator (http://www.logic-puzzles.org/init.php), generate a puzzle of the appropriate difficulty (http://www.logic-puzzles.org/game.php?u2=0722075f4be4d4b261a4fc5f68ed964c), and reskin it to be bottles and colours and positions.

Anxe
2015-03-09, 01:36 PM
Okeedokee!
So most important clue is: 1, 4, and 7 are bad.
That gives us:
XOOXOOX
But we can presumable pick up the "stone" eggs as they won't turn into slaads and murder me.
I could then use my knowledge of basic Slaad colors to deduce that eggs 2, 6, and 7 are all slaad eggs. That means that 1 and 4 are stone. 3 and 5 are the treasure and the key.
So it's solvable with a successful Knowledge (Planes) check?

Except my answer ended up being wrong, but that the color thing could be a way to give your players a secret clue.

So If I continue with my erroenous solution. I picked up 3 and 5. 3 was a stone, so I know that 4 can't be a slaad. It has to be a stone as well because it's bad, but can't be a slaad. My first thoughts are now shaken. 1 and 7 are certainly slaads, but which of 2 and 6 is the one I want? I decide to outsmart the puzzle by putting a stone egg back to the left of egg 6. Now that it's to the immediate right of a stone egg, it can't be a slaad egg. I pick it up to examine it and I get eaten.

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 02:08 PM
Okeedokee!
So most important clue is: 1, 4, and 7 are bad.
That gives us:
XOOXOOX
But we can presumable pick up the "stone" eggs as they won't turn into slaads and murder me.
I could then use my knowledge of basic Slaad colors to deduce that eggs 2, 6, and 7 are all slaad eggs. That means that 1 and 4 are stone. 3 and 5 are the treasure and the key.
So it's solvable with a successful Knowledge (Planes) check?

Except my answer ended up being wrong, but that the color thing could be a way to give your players a secret clue.

So If I continue with my erroenous solution. I picked up 3 and 5. 3 was a stone, so I know that 4 can't be a slaad. It has to be a stone as well because it's bad, but can't be a slaad. My first thoughts are now shaken. 1 and 7 are certainly slaads, but which of 2 and 6 is the one I want? I decide to outsmart the puzzle by putting a stone egg back to the left of egg 6. Now that it's to the immediate right of a stone egg, it can't be a slaad egg. I pick it up to examine it and I get eaten.

No gaming the puzzle! If you rearrange the eggs all you'll have are the same eggs only the clues won't apply any longer! That said, this puzzle can be made easier with the knowledge check, or brute forced by playing the odds or fighting the slaads.

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 02:55 PM
Alright, two more clues that I think should be enough:

2 and 6 are not stone.

The Treasure is right of stone.

Adding them up top as well.

veti
2015-03-09, 03:19 PM
I worked one solution out as:

Slaad
Slaad
Key
Stone
Stone
Treasure
Slaad

Another:

Slaad
Key
Stone
Stone
Treasure
Slaad
Slaad

So short answer - no, you haven't given enough clues to deduce a unique solution.

Edit: actually, scratch that. I don't think there's not enough clues, the number of clues looks plenty enough, but they don't contain enough information.

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 03:24 PM
Tsst.

This is hard.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-09, 03:31 PM
Tsst.

This is hard.

Refluff someone else's puzzle, friend. :smallwink:

veti
2015-03-09, 03:32 PM
Thinking about it:

I think you can deduce that the two end eggs are slaad eggs. That's two of the three slaadi accounted for, so worst case, you'll only have to fight one of the things. Depending on the level and resourcefulness of your party, you could just call that an acceptable risk...

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 03:35 PM
Refluff someone else's puzzle, friend. :smallwink:

No! I'm committed now, dammit!

What if instead of saying 2 & 6 are not stone I go with 2 & 5 are not Slaadi?

Anxe
2015-03-09, 03:56 PM
No! I'm committed now, dammit!

What if instead of saying 2 & 6 are not stone I go with 2 & 5 are not Slaadi?

Makes it too easy. 2&5 are now guaranteed safe. I pick them up first and I'm done.

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 04:01 PM
In case any of you think I'm too proud to accept suggestions for clues, please know that I sold all of my pride for a lifetime half-off at Ben and Jerry's.

veti
2015-03-09, 05:27 PM
In case any of you think I'm too proud to accept suggestions for clues, please know that I sold all of my pride for a lifetime half-off at Ben and Jerry's.
How about:

There are three Slaad eggs, two Stone eggs, one Key and one Treasure
No Slaad egg is next to a Stone egg
Both Key and Treasure are between a Slaad and a Stone egg, although not necessarily in that order
The sixth egg is a Slaad.

The 2nd clue makes the puzzle particularly easy if you open a stone egg, because you then know you can safely open the eggs on either side, and that'll soon net you everything good there is to be had. To put some challenge back into the puzzle, restrict them to three picks.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-09, 05:52 PM
How about:

There are three Slaad eggs, two Stone eggs, one Key and one Treasure
No Slaad egg is next to a Stone egg
Both Key and Treasure are between a Slaad and a Stone egg, although not necessarily in that order
The sixth egg is a Slaad.

The 2nd clue makes the puzzle particularly easy if you open a stone egg, because you then know you can safely open the eggs on either side, and that'll soon net you everything good there is to be had. To put some challenge back into the puzzle, restrict them to three picks.

You could add and polish it up a bit:


There are three Slaad eggs, two Stone eggs, one Key and one Treasure
No Slaad egg is next to a Stone egg
Both Key and Treasure are next to one Slaad egg and one Stone egg
The sixth egg is a Slaad.
The second egg is not the key.


I believe that has a unique solution:

Slaad Treasure Stone Stone Key Slaad Slaad

So you could limit them to two tries and still be possible to win assuredly.

ETA:

6 is Slaad (#4). 7 cannot be a stone (#2), and cannot be the key or treasure (#3), so 7 is Slaad too. 5 cannot be a Slaad (because then there would not be room for a key *and* a treasure next to a Slaad, #3) and cannot be a stone (#2) so must be key or treasure. Since 5 is key or treasure and has a Slaad on one side, 4 must be Stone (#2). So 3 cannot be Slaad (#2). If 2 is Slaad, there is no room for the last stone (#2), so 1 must be the last Slaad. 2 cannot be stone (#2) and cannot be key (#5) so is treasure. 3 must be a stone next to the treasure (#3). The key is 5 by elimination.

Anxe
2015-03-09, 06:05 PM
I don't think you should limit tries. The puzzle already punishes incorrect guesses by giving you a monster to fight. What if they guess wrong and don't get the key? The adventure grinds to a halt.

Boost
2015-03-09, 06:09 PM
So I'm doing a thing where my players complete puzzles to get loot and a piece of a key that will lead them forward and one of the Puzzles I wanted to pose was a logic puzzle. I want to do a variation on the Potion Puzzle from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. The Puzzle is as follows:

The Emoji are eggs laid out before players:

:smallmad: :smallfurious: :smallfrown: :smalleek: :smallcool: :smallyuk: :smallconfused:

The clues I have (which I will attempt to compose into a rhyme at some point, but not here) are as follows:


Three of the Eggs are Slaad eggs.
Two of the Eggs are Stone
One Egg contains Treasure
One Egg contains the Key
Neither the furthermost left, furthermost right, nor center egg contains something good.
No Slaad egg is to the immediate right of a Stone Egg


Clues Added After the Fact

2 and 6 are not stone
Treasure is right of stone


I do not know if I have enough clues, because I know which egg is where, so I need some help making sure the puzzle is solvable. Ideally while being provided the fewest possible clues the players should be able to not only deduce the location of the correct eggs, but all the wrong eggs as well.

:smallmad: Is a Slaad egg, :smallfurious: is the key egg, :smallfrown: is a stone egg, :smalleek: is a stone egg, :smallcool:is the treasure egg, :smallyuk: is a slaad egg, :smallconfused: is a slaad egg

Solution: Cast Detect Chaos. Since Slaads are Chaotic outsiders, their eggs will give off a chaotic aura, allowing you to immediately identify the three Slaad egs.

Take the other four eggs, crack open the two that will open, save the two stone eggs as sling ammunition.

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 06:10 PM
Thanks for the help, guys. Now I work on setting it all to rhyme and meter.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-09, 06:12 PM
Solution: Cast Detect Chaos. Since Slaads are Chaotic outsiders, their eggs will give off a chaotic aura, allowing you to immediately identify the three Slaad egs.

Take the other four eggs, crack open the two that will open, save the two stone eggs as sling ammunition.

Do you get the XP for smashing the Slaad eggs before they hatch, too? :smallwink:

Boost
2015-03-09, 06:17 PM
Do you get the XP for smashing the Slaad eggs before they hatch, too? :smallwink:

If I were DM in this situation, I would award partial XP, since you completed a challenge by solving the puzzle, but it wasn't AS challenging as fighting three Slaads to the death.

But that's just me.

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 06:18 PM
If I were DM in this situation, I would award partial XP, since you completed a challenge by solving the puzzle, but it wasn't AS challenging as fighting three Slaads to the death.

But that's just me.

Basically this. Yeah. Lateral thinking is still thinking. But just for the record the eggs have to be hatched in a nearby brazier.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-09, 06:27 PM
I don't think you should limit tries. The puzzle already punishes incorrect guesses by giving you a monster to fight. What if they guess wrong and don't get the key? The adventure grinds to a halt.


Basically this. Yeah. Lateral thinking is still thinking. But just for the record the eggs have to be hatched in a nearby brazier.

OK: the stones are ice eggs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGzwqWi1A_A). If you "hatch" two of them in the brazier, it goes out. So as long as you don't hatch both cold eggs, you can still move on; you can hatch as many Slaad as you're willing to fight, of course. Added bonus: clever players can steal the cold eggs and have a weird, pointless, but totally useful with creativity and craziness magic item, which is exactly the kind of inventory players love to carry around. :smallwink:

ondonaflash
2015-03-09, 06:32 PM
OK: the stones are ice eggs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGzwqWi1A_A). If you "hatch" two of them in the brazier, it goes out. So as long as you don't hatch both cold eggs, you can still move on; you can hatch as many Slaad as you're willing to fight, of course. Added bonus: clever players can steal the cold eggs and have a weird, pointless, but totally useful with creativity and craziness magic item, which is exactly the kind of inventory players love to carry around. :smallwink:

Wow, that's actually in keeping with the theme of my dungeon. Specifically it is the tower stronghold of one of the Winter Fey. Specifically the 13th Fairy from Briar Rose.

veti
2015-03-09, 06:32 PM
I don't think you should limit tries. The puzzle already punishes incorrect guesses by giving you a monster to fight. What if they guess wrong and don't get the key? The adventure grinds to a halt.

The adventure may grind to a halt, but the session goes on. I assume there's something else the characters could be doing...

However, if you're anxious that they should get this key, then by all means let them keep it - just have the treasure vanish after two incorrect guesses (to be replaced by another slaad, if you're feeling vindictive). With the clues listed above, they've easily got enough information to tell which are the two "good" eggs without even getting a single stone. And the only reason they'd open a Slaad egg is "we weren't listening", and if you don't punish that attitude - you're not doing your job, IMO...

Iceforge
2015-03-10, 08:54 AM
You could add and polish it up a bit:


There are three Slaad eggs, two Stone eggs, one Key and one Treasure
No Slaad egg is next to a Stone egg
Both Key and Treasure are next to one Slaad egg and one Stone egg
The sixth egg is a Slaad.
The second egg is not the key.




For my puzzle infront of you eggs there be two and five.
But beware and don't just in with hands dive.

Within on is hidden for the treasure a key
Two are merely made of rock debris

One contains the fortune you have been seeking
But from three slaads upon touch will come leaking

Next to stone, no egg leaking slaads do rest
But the 6th egg is surely such a pest.

Key and treasure both between slaad and stone wait
Take the second and the key is not your fate.

ondonaflash
2015-03-10, 11:45 AM
"Before you rest seven eggs yet unknown
One a key to lead you along your way
Three hold dread fiends and two are merely stone.
One holds shining gold to brighten your day

Beast and stone one another do detest
so side by side they never shall reside.
'Tween fiend and stone both wealth and key do rest.
Though in sixth egg calamity does hide.

The second egg cannot lead you from here
So be certain your egg is in it's place.
If twice you choose wrong wealth will disappear
And a monster shall step into it's place.

So lay egg upon flame and choose your way
or else forever in my tower stay."

I may not be able to work through a logic puzzle worth a damn, but I can sonnet in the manner of one who is extremely affectionate towards mothers.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-10, 12:04 PM
Don't quit your - well, actually, that's pretty decent. :smallredface: My approach to poetry is to have it in another language, hand the PC with the bonus languages prose, and declare that the character isn't good enough at composition to make the translation poetic too. :smallwink:

ondonaflash
2015-03-10, 05:48 PM
Don't quit your - well, actually, that's pretty decent. :smallredface: My approach to poetry is to have it in another language, hand the PC with the bonus languages prose, and declare that the character isn't good enough at composition to make the translation poetic too. :smallwink:

"Don't quit your day job, because poetry doesn't pay worth a darn."

But yeah, that's a good way to go if you struggle with poetry. For me? The poem is half the fun.

Studoku
2015-03-10, 06:36 PM
My immediate thought was to create a Magic Circle Against Chaos, put all the eggs inside, and break the lot of them.

ondonaflash
2015-03-10, 10:56 PM
My immediate thought was to create a Magic Circle Against Chaos, put all the eggs inside, and break the lot of them.

Lateral thinking, but not effective given the actual presentation of the puzzle. The eggs are immune from most harm and must be hatched within a brazier.