Do you ever lose your subtype?

[Maglubiyet]

This recent thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18306830&postcount=335) reminded me of a long-standing question we've had. When changing types or subtypes, do you ever lose your original subtype?

For example, a half-elf (Type: Humanoid, Subtype: Elf) gets bit by a were-tiger and acquires the Shapechanger subtype. Is he now Humanoid (elf, shapechanger) or just Humanoid (shapechanger). Like, can an Arrow of Slaying (Elf) still affect him?

What about the same half-elf who, for some reason, takes the Elemental Savant PrC up to 10 and becomes an Elemental (fire). Is he now Elemental (fire, elf, shapechanger)?

And then later he acquires the Pseudonatural Template becoming an Outsider. Is he Outsider (fire, elf, shapechanger)?

Generally the house rules we've used is if the character still resembles the original subtype he maintains it. If he's radically transformed, he loses it. It's still up in the air about things where the mind is lost, like Undead or Construct. Like is a bugbear who fails his Will save after gaining a half-golem limb still a goblinoid, so a gnome would still get a +1 racial modifier vs him? Or a zombie dwarf still enough of a dwarf so that a battle axe +2/+4 vs dwarves still gets its extra bonus?

I know this must've been covered somewhere before.

[(Un)Inspired]

I lost mine in high school with my first girlfriend.

[WhamBamSam]

You retain the subtype. There's nothing stopping creatures from having multiple subtypes. For example, you could have started from a Forestlord Elf, and been Humanoid (Elf, Dragonblood) before you ever got to adding the other stuff, and just about every fiend has around 4 subtypes out of the box (ie, Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanaari)).

[Necroticplague]

Unless it specifies you lose previous subtypes, you keep them.

[Red Fel]

This recent thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18306830&postcount=335) reminded me of a long-standing question we've had. When changing types or subtypes, do you ever lose your original subtype?

If whatever changes your subtype says so. By way of comparison, the Lycanthrope template states that the creature "gains the shapechanger subtype." Not loses its existing subtype, gains shapechanger. And it is possible to have multiple subtypes - just look at Outsiders.


For example, a half-elf (Type: Humanoid, Subtype: Elf) gets bit by a were-tiger and acquires the Shapechanger subtype. Is he now Humanoid (elf, shapechanger) or just Humanoid (shapechanger). Like, can an Arrow of Slaying (Elf) still affect him?

See above. Humanoid (elf, shapechanger).


What about the same half-elf who, for some reason, takes the Elemental Savant PrC up to 10 and becomes an Elemental (fire). Is he now Elemental (fire, elf, shapechanger)?

Elemental Savant explicitly changes your type, not your subtype. That means Elemental (elf, shapechanger, fire).


And then later he acquires the Pseudonatural Template becoming an Outsider. Is he Outsider (fire, elf, shapechanger)?

Got it in one.


Generally the house rules we've used is if the character still resembles the original subtype he maintains it. If he's radically transformed, he loses it. It's still up in the air about things where the mind is lost, like Undead or Construct. Like is a bugbear who fails his Will save after gaining a half-golem limb still a goblinoid, so a gnome would still get a +1 racial modifier vs him? Or a zombie dwarf still enough of a dwarf so that a battle axe +2/+4 vs dwarves still gets its extra bonus?

Well, look over here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm). A Zombie "retains any subtypes except alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind." So, for example, Humanoid (dwarf) indicates kind; it would lose the dwarf subtype and be Undead, straight-up. But, for instance, a zombified Earth Dwarf would be an Undead (earth), because it retains the earth subtype, which is neither alignment nor kind.

Lastly, don't forget that, unless a type change says otherwise, it gives you the Augmented subtype. So, all that stuff I said above? You should probably add Augmented to it. (Except Zombie, because that explicitly does not receive the Augmented subtype.)

[WhamBamSam]

Lastly, don't forget that, unless a type change says otherwise, it gives you the Augmented subtype. So, all that stuff I said above? You should probably add Augmented to it. (Except Zombie, because that explicitly does not receive the Augmented subtype.)The Augmented subtype, it should be noted, does less than people sometimes think it does. For instance, an Undead (Augmented Aberration) would still have Aberration racial hit dice, if applicable, (unless the d8s explicitly becoming d12s or something, as is often the case with Undead templates), but would not remain an aberration in any meaningful sense. Spells that specifically target aberrations don't care about the Augmented Aberration subtype and it would lose any feats that could be qualified for by aberrations, but not by undead (Rapidstrike is probably the most significant example).

[Necroticplague]

The Augmented subtype, it should be noted, does less than people sometimes think it does. For instance, an Undead (Augmented Aberration) would still have Aberration racial hit dice, if applicable, (unless the d8s explicitly becoming d12s or something, as is often the case with Undead templates), but would not remain an aberration in any meaningful sense. Spells that specifically target aberrations don't care about the Augmented Aberration subtype and it would lose any feats that could be qualified for by aberrations, but not by undead (Rapidstrike is probably the most significant example).

Yeah, its main purpose is just keeping track of what RHD you use if you've been through some template type changes. So in that example, the (Augmented Aberration) just serves as a reminder to use the Aberration HD.

[the_david]

You know, I think Maglubiyet has a good point here. Yes, it's logical to keep your subtypes. That doesn't mean that an Elf that turned himself into a Fire Elemental should still be vulnerable to Elfbane weapons. The physiology would be all wrong. On the other hand, a Dwarf should still get his AC bonus against that Hill Giant that just became an Earth Elemental. (As long as it doesn't use Earth Glide, I guess.)

So I guess what I'm saying is, where do you draw the line?

Edit: I also wanted to ask if casting Baleful Polymorph on an undead would result in an undead bunny, but the answer is no, undead are immune to anything that requires a fortitude save. Boo!
Edit #2: No wait, Polymorph any Object would work. So, you could use Polymorph Any Object to temporarily bring someone back to life?

[thethird]

You know, I think Maglubiyet has a good point here. Yes, it's logical to keep your subtypes. That doesn't mean that an Elf that turned himself into a Fire Elemental should still be vulnerable to Elfbane weapons. The physiology would be all wrong. On the other hand, a Dwarf should still get his AC bonus against that Hill Giant that just became an Earth Elemental. (As long as it doesn't use Earth Glide, I guess.)

So I guess what I'm saying is, where do you draw the line?

I don't see your point. Bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane) has a list of options while humanoid (elf) is one elemental (elf) is not. As such if you were an elf and you become an elemental bane weapons keyed to humanoid (elf) won't affect you.

And a dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm) won't have his AC against a Hill giant who isn't a giant but an elemental.

[the_david]

Hmm, wrong example I guess. How about an elf polymorphing into a human then?

As for the dwarf, giants are humanoids with the giant subtype in Pathfinder so I guess I got a bit confused.

[Necroticplague]

You know, I think Maglubiyet has a good point here. Yes, it's logical to keep your subtypes. That doesn't mean that an Elf that turned himself into a Fire Elemental should still be vulnerable to Elfbane weapons. The physiology would be all wrong. On the other hand, a Dwarf should still get his AC bonus against that Hill Giant that just became an Earth Elemental. (As long as it doesn't use Earth Glide, I guess.)

So I guess what I'm saying is, where do you draw the line?

Physiology has nothing to do with Bane weapons. If it did, I would really love to hear an explanation as to why Beholders, Elans, and Tzochar are all effected by the same weapon.

I draw the line where the rules do. Plain and simple.

[WhamBamSam]

Hmm, wrong example I guess. How about an elf polymorphing into a human then?

As for the dwarf, giants are humanoids with the giant subtype in Pathfinder so I guess I got a bit confused.Polymorph also changes your subtype to match the new form. You lose all previously held subtypes (except Shapechanger, for which I believe there is a specific exception). An Elf polymorphed into a human is Humanoid (Human), does not have the elf subtype, and is not susceptible to Elf Bane weapons.

An Elf who has assumed the form of a human by way of Alter Self is still a Humanoid (Elf), but hasn't changed itself in as dramatic a way, so I'd argue that it still makes sense for Elf Bane weapons to work.

[Jack_Simth]

Edit #2: No wait, Polymorph any Object would work. So, you could use Polymorph Any Object to temporarily bring someone back to life?Sort of. It's not true life, and it's not the original person.

Say you PaO'd, oh, the Vampire Spawn made from a Lawful-Good Human Fighter-5 into a human.

PaO does not invent a personality when one is already there. So the resulting temporary human is still Chaotic Evil.
PaO does not change hit dice. So the resulting temporary human still has the 4d12.
PaO does not change base saves. So the resulting temporary human still has a good Will save and a poor Fort save.
PaO sets the physical stats to the standard for it's kind. So this temporary human has Str/Dex/Con of 10 or 11.
However, a Bane(Humanoid(Human)) arrow would still work just fine on the resulting creature (as it is - temporarily, at least - humanoid(Human)).

Note that what exactly happens when you PaO a full-on corpse into a living creature is poorly defined - mostly because the rules aren't what you might call clear on whether or not a corpse is still considered a creature.

[Flickerdart]

Physiology has nothing to do with Bane weapons. If it did, I would really love to hear an explanation as to why Beholders, Elans, and Tzochar are all effected by the same weapon.
All aberrations are not of this world, regardless of their specific type. They're far more foreign to the multiverse than even Extraplanar creatures, and a Bane weapon keyed to Aberrations simply turns this innate otherness against them, purging them from this realm.

[thethird]

As for the dwarf, giants are humanoids with the giant subtype in Pathfinder so I guess I got a bit confused.

If you play with pathfinder you don't need to houserule it your way. Since dwarf (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf) has a bonus against monsters of the giant subtype iregardless of their creature type. The distinction is usually moot because giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-giant) are normally humanoid but since we are dealing with creature type changing without changing subtype it applies here.

Bane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/bane) weapons still don't work.

[Duke of Urrel]

When you are polymorphed, I believe you may change one or more of your subtypes, or you may not. It all depends on the subtype.

I agree with the general rule that if nothing in the description of a spell of the Polymorph subschool indicates that your subtype changes, then it doesn't. And the rules explicitly require the Shapechanger subtype to be retained when you are polymorphed.

But consider this. Many subtypes consist exclusively of racial traits. This is true of the Humanoid subtypes Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Half-Elf, and Half-Orc. All of these subtypes consist exclusively of racial traits – and beyond this, these racial traits are all identified as extraordinary special qualities. If you normally have a Humanoid subtype that consists exclusively of extraordinary special qualities, and polymorphing causes you to lose all of your extraordinary special qualities, then you might as well say that you lose the subtype altogether. (Note: All Polymorph spells that are based upon the Alter Self spell do, in fact, require you to lose all the extraordinary special qualities of your natural form.)

Other subtypes, such as Aquatic, Reptilian, and Goblinoid, also consist of racial traits that may be replaced when you are polymorphed. The racial traits that belong to these subtypes are not all identified as extraordinary, but the FAQs (30th of June 2008, page 88) suggest that you should change even natural racial traits when you change your creature type.

Your alignment subtype, if you naturally have one, probably doesn't change when you are polymorphed. If polymorphing changes you into a creature with a different alignment subtype, then I think you simply add this to the alignment subtype that you already have.

[WhamBamSam]

When you are polymorphed, I believe you may change one or more of your subtypes, or you may not. It all depends on the subtype.

I agree with the general rule that if nothing in the description of a spell of the Polymorph subschool indicates that your subtype changes, then it doesn't. And the rules explicitly require the Shapechanger subtype to be retained when you are polymorphed.

But consider this. Many subtypes consist exclusively of racial traits. This is true of the Humanoid subtypes Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Half-Elf, and Half-Orc. All of these subtypes consist exclusively of racial traits – and beyond this, these racial traits are all identified as extraordinary special qualities. If you normally have a Humanoid subtype that consists exclusively of extraordinary special qualities, and polymorphing causes you to lose all of your extraordinary special qualities, then you might as well say that you lose the subtype altogether. (Note: All Polymorph spells that are based upon the Alter Self spell do, in fact, require you to lose all the extraordinary special qualities of your natural form.)

Other subtypes, such as Aquatic, Reptilian, and Goblinoid, also consist of racial traits that may be replaced when you are polymorphed. The racial traits that belong to these subtypes are not all identified as extraordinary, but the FAQs (30th of June 2008, page 88) suggest that you should change even natural racial traits when you change your creature type.

Your alignment subtype, if you naturally have one, probably doesn't change when you are polymorphed. If polymorphing changes you into a creature with a different alignment subtype, then I think you simply add this to the alignment subtype that you already have.The polymorph subschool rules may not, but the Polymroph spell itself explicitly changes your type and subtype.


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.Emphasis mine.

It may actually only be Baleful Polymorph that explicitly leaves the shapechanger subtype alone (allowing such creatures to undo the effect).

The polymorph subschool isn't worth that much outside of the line that derives from Alter Self (which allows you to retain class abilities) and Baleful Polymorph (as a debuff), so how something like Dragonshape works here is more of an academic question than an important one.

[Crake]

Sort of. It's not true life, and it's not the original person.

Say you PaO'd, oh, the Vampire Spawn made from a Lawful-Good Human Fighter-5 into a human.

PaO does not invent a personality when one is already there. So the resulting temporary human is still Chaotic Evil.
PaO does not change hit dice. So the resulting temporary human still has the 4d12.
PaO does not change base saves. So the resulting temporary human still has a good Will save and a poor Fort save.
PaO sets the physical stats to the standard for it's kind. So this temporary human has Str/Dex/Con of 10 or 11.
However, a Bane(Humanoid(Human)) arrow would still work just fine on the resulting creature (as it is - temporarily, at least - humanoid(Human)).

Note that what exactly happens when you PaO a full-on corpse into a living creature is poorly defined - mostly because the rules aren't what you might call clear on whether or not a corpse is still considered a creature.

An interesting question that would arise here would be: Does a vampire spawn that's been PAO into a human regain it's freedom from it's vampire master? If so, is it temporary, and it becomes re-enslaved when it turns back into a vampire? Or does it retain it's freedom once it reverts to vampire form?

[the_david]

Sort of. It's not true life, and it's not the original person.

Say you PaO'd, oh, the Vampire Spawn made from a Lawful-Good Human Fighter-5 into a human.

PaO does not invent a personality when one is already there. So the resulting temporary human is still Chaotic Evil.
PaO does not change hit dice. So the resulting temporary human still has the 4d12.
PaO does not change base saves. So the resulting temporary human still has a good Will save and a poor Fort save.
PaO sets the physical stats to the standard for it's kind. So this temporary human has Str/Dex/Con of 10 or 11.
However, a Bane(Humanoid(Human)) arrow would still work just fine on the resulting creature (as it is - temporarily, at least - humanoid(Human)).

Note that what exactly happens when you PaO a full-on corpse into a living creature is poorly defined - mostly because the rules aren't what you might call clear on whether or not a corpse is still considered a creature.
Actually, that would count as related. (Like the wolf fur to wolf example.) It would also be the same size, so it would last for 3 hours as a human. But you're right. The wolf would just be a regular wolf. (Statwise.) There's no such thing as a regular human, so this would result in a weird situation because the spell doesn't specify what happens if you create a living creature.

[atemu1234]

Unless it specifies you lose previous subtypes, you keep them.

Basically, this. No affirming the negative.

[Jack_Simth]

Actually, that would count as related. (Like the wolf fur to wolf example.) It would also be the same size, so it would last for 3 hours as a human. I'm confused. Did I specify a duration anywhere? I'm pretty sure the closest I cam was saying "temporary" a few times. Oh yes, and don't forget "Same or lower Int" as the vampire spawn is a specific Int-13 creature, and a regular human has an Int of 10.
But you're right. The wolf would just be a regular wolf. (Statwise.) There's no such thing as a regular human, so this would result in a weird situation because the spell doesn't specify what happens if you create a living creature.As to that, "standard" was my choice of wording. After you dig through the levels of inheritance ("This spell functions like polymorph, except ..." and "This spell functions like alter self, except ...") you've got "an average member of the new form’s race". For a 3.5 human, the "average" of 3d6 (what most critters in D&D are assumed to use) is 10.5.
An interesting question that would arise here would be: Does a vampire spawn that's been PAO into a human regain it's freedom from it's vampire master? If so, is it temporary, and it becomes re-enslaved when it turns back into a vampire? Or does it retain it's freedom once it reverts to vampire form?There's a lot of places in the nitty-gritty of Polymorph and company that's not clearly specified, especially when it comes to interaction with various other effects..

[Curmudgeon]

The Augmented subtype, it should be noted, does less than people sometimes think it does.
I maintain that augmented does absolutely nothing.
A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type. You always follow the specific rules of whatever change introduces this subtype. A "rule" with a vague qualifier like this "usually" nonsense can't be applied.

[WhamBamSam]

I maintain that augmented does absolutely nothing. You always follow the specific rules of whatever change introduces this subtype. A "rule" with a vague qualifier like this "usually" nonsense can't be applied.That's a fair argument, I suppose, though most templates are actually pretty specific in this regard, so what the rules might be is, as with some of the previous tangents of the threa, more an academic discussion than a practical one. Especially as there's another rule on templates that specifically says an unlisted field means the same thing as "Same as base creature," so the rules for the augmented subtype are always either on the losing end of a "specific trumps general" situation, or simply redundant to a more precisely written (if poorly thought out for other reasons) rule about templates.

[Talya]

The extraplanar subtype is rather mutable, as its existence depends on what plane you're on vs. your native plane.

[Duke of Urrel]

The polymorph subschool rules may not, but the Polymorph spell itself explicitly changes your type and subtype.

Thank you for reminding me of this! That simplifies things for the Polymorph spell and for the Polymorph Any Object spell and the Shapechange spell as well.

I believe what I wrote still applies to the Alter Self spell, however. Since this spell does not change your creature type, it can change your subtype (Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, etc.), if any, only indirectly, by replacing some of your racial traits (including all of those that are extraordinary special qualities).

As for Baleful Polymorph, you are right to observe that the rules of the Polymorph Subschool apply more to this spell than to any other. It's because of this that we can say that the Baleful Polymorph spell also changes your subtype or subtypes, if any, because nothing in the text of the Baleful Polymorph spell negates the rule of the Polymorph Subschool that "Unless otherwise noted in the spell's description, the subject of a Polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own, except as follows. […] In all other ways, the subject's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the assumed form." Subtypes are nowhere specifically excluded from these "statistics."

EDIT: Actually, subtypes are specifically excluded in one place – in the text of the Alter Self spell. I feel a little sheepish now. Thanks again for the help, WhamBamSam.