How far we've come: Where do we go from here?(Intersectionality and gender in gaming)

[MonkeySage]

I've put thought into how far we've come, reading the new 5th edition PHB and comparing it to certain incredibly sexist things that a certain otherwise awesome person once said.

Although 5th edition D&D isn't my game, I have to admit the entry on gender and sexuality really made me smile. To be clear, I consider myself a sex positive trans positive feminist. Not a lot of gamers I've met have held such views, and I've even been railed against for holding these views. I myself am a cis gender gay male, this just seemed to be the most logical conclusion I could come to.

I think that our favorite hobby(talking in general here) is still pretty male dominated, but I'm seeing some definite improvement.

My ex stepfather played 2nd edition d&d, and in his games, women were nothing more than a novelty. The gm would railroad female PCs into sexual relationships with his npcs, and when the player protested this behavior, the entire group would basically shun them.


I'm not sure if I meant to make any particular point in starting this thread, but had a bit on my mind and figured this might be a nice place to spill it.
Sorry if this isn't exactly LGBTAI+ material. :)

[SiuiS]

This may indeed be folded into the main thread, but I'm unsure.

Really, what I'm noticing is that this is still a male dominated hobby, but "male" has become dilute; it's no longer a hobby full of the extremes, it's a hobby full of vocal people with specific presentations and or genitalia. Masculinity, I guess, or toxic masculinity, is in retrograde. That's a plus.

The whole railroad relationships thig still happens, but now there's support when you call it out.

As for where we go from here; who knows! I think picking a goal and trying to see it through would be actively bad. We've come this far by changing people and letting them bring those changes with them. Trying to actively change the hobby instead is too direct, likely to meet with resistance, and unlikely to have a sufficiently good goal. I am led to believe in fact that trying to change the hobby (back to where it was) is how we got FATAL.

[golentan]

There's always backlash, but yeah. The mainstream of the hobby is explicitly trying to reach out to people that have been left out in the past.

Of course, there have always been corners of the gaming community that have been disproportionately queer friendly. Take for example Exalted, where a year or two back a bunch of people realized that half of the fanbase here on the forums was also in the LGBT thread (whether lurking or actively involved).

[Brother Oni]

Of course, there have always been corners of the gaming community that have been disproportionately queer friendly. Take for example Exalted, where a year or two back a bunch of people realized that half of the fanbase here on the forums was also in the LGBT thread (whether lurking or actively involved).

I wonder if that's just selection bias though; Exalted attracting the sort of players who are more likely to be less hostile towards LGBT issues, rather than the Exalted system being more skewed towards LGBT issues.

[Zyzzyva]

I wonder if that's just selection bias though; Exalted attracting the sort of players who are more likely to be less hostile towards LGBT issues, rather than the Exalted system being more skewed towards LGBT issues.

I'm not sure that's "selection bias", just "confused cause and effect". The outcome's the same either way.

[Eldan]

I've always known more female roleplayers than male, I think. At the local geek shop, at least, I don't know any nerds outside of it. The men were into wargames and miniatures, the women were into roleplaying. My first group, in high school, was me and two friends, so all men, but later, once I joined the shop, most groups were about 3:1 female.

[Peebles]

The majority of roleplayers I've come across have been male, but I've never been part of a group that hasn't been accepting and inclusive of anybody and everybody who wants to play. My group at uni was mostly female, but that was an outlier rather than the norm.

Roleplaying as a hobby is exceptionally inclusive, after all, everyone is pretending to be someone else, and really gender or orientation or whatever of the players really shouldn't matter.

It's probably fair to say that most roleplayers find themselves in the minority of their peer group, in terms of their interests and their level of introversion, social anxiety, whatever. For the most part, we gamers are not "the norm", as much as I hate to use that loaded term, and maybe we're therefore more open and accepting to a wider variety of individuals and interests as a result, because gaming/roleplaying is an area in which we find acceptance ourselves.

Maybe?

*shrugs*

And yes, I too had a pleased smile plastered across my face when I read the gender and sexuality section of the PHB. I thought it was inclusive, nicely written, and non-judgemental. A rarity in any kind of media in my experience.

[SiuiS]

I wonder if that's just selection bias though; Exalted attracting the sort of players who are more likely to be less hostile towards LGBT issues, rather than the Exalted system being more skewed towards LGBT issues.

I don't see a meaningful difference. Well, except degrees, but as getting to the goal rather than why we got to the goal is the point, it seems moot?

[SowZ]

I've played with almost as many women as men, actually. I've only played in two groups that were all men and a few where the women outnumber men. Mostly, it has been about a 40-60 split favoring men.

So my experiences aren't the same as many others. Regardless, I know how much bigotry can exist within the hobby. I've always been able to avoid such groups, for the most part. I feel for those who have been less lucky.

[golentan]

I'm not sure that's "selection bias", just "confused cause and effect". The outcome's the same either way.

I wasn't even trying to comment on cause and effect, just that the exalted community is queer friendly beyond other subcommunities I've dealt with and has been as long as I've been following it.

[noparlpf]

Doesn't Paizo have a canon trans character now?

Anyway. I've only been in a couple of TTRPG groups IRL but they've been pretty evenly male/female. And players have been fine playing different-gender characters sometimes. But that happens when you have a table with people who aren't all heteronormative IRL anyway.

[Zyzzyva]

I wasn't even trying to comment on cause and effect, just that the exalted community is queer friendly beyond other subcommunities I've dealt with and has been as long as I've been following it.

I know; I was responding to Brother Oni, who seemed to be making a distinction along those lines that seemed confusing and ill-supported to me.

[BootStrapTommy]

Risking ire, I'd say the hobby has been marginalized the duration of its existence. Thus it attracted the marginalized. In confusion, the stereotypes used to marginalize it became confused with marketing base, and only recently have companies woken up and went "Well, crap. More than males play our games."

Also internet shaming and wider social awareness may have simply made it a solid business decision.

[Brother Oni]

I don't see a meaningful difference. Well, except degrees, but as getting to the goal rather than why we got to the goal is the point, it seems moot?

I agree there isn't a difference in terms of having a more accepting player base, but I'll try and explain my reasoning below.


I know; I was responding to Brother Oni, who seemed to be making a distinction along those lines that seemed confusing and ill-supported to me.

Edit: After thinking about it and trying to explain my reasoning, you're right.

I'd like to point out I wasn't trying to make a distinction, just an observation, since all the Exalted players I know are also older than the usual teen crowd and tend to be more open minded about LGBT issues and non-mainstream lifestyles (one was a blacksmith for example).

[SiuiS]

Risking ire, I'd say the hobby has been marginalized the duration of its existence. Thus it attracted the marginalized. In confusion, the stereotypes used to marginalize it became confused with marketing base, and only recently have companies woken up and went "Well, crap. More than males play our games."

Also internet shaming and wider social awareness may have simply made it a solid business decision.

That's a pretty valid point.


I agree there isn't a difference in terms of having a more accepting player base, but I'll try and explain my reasoning below.

Edit: After thinking about it and trying to explain my reasoning, you're right.

I'd like to point out I wasn't trying to make a distinction, just an observation, since all the Exalted players I know are also older than the usual teen crowd and tend to be more open minded about LGBT issues and non-mainstream lifestyles (one was a blacksmith for example).

Oh, that's fine. It's just sometimes we need to recalibrate what we think matters at any point. You're much more gracious about it than I am.

[Brother Oni]

Oh, that's fine. It's just sometimes we need to recalibrate what we think matters at any point. You're much more gracious about it than I am.

Thank you. :smallsmile:

Due to my personal preferences (for lack of a better word), I'm generally not very involved with LGBT issues, so I try to keep an open mind and learn about what I can, since it's very important for some people.

[Zyzzyva]

You're much more gracious about it than I am.

Seconded. Thanks for raising the tone of the discussion! :smallsmile:

[themaque]

Risking ire, I'd say the hobby has been marginalized the duration of its existence. Thus it attracted the marginalized. In confusion, the stereotypes used to marginalize it became confused with marketing base, and only recently have companies woken up and went "Well, crap. More than males play our games."

Also internet shaming and wider social awareness may have simply made it a solid business decision.

I would say this holds true. I'm going to try and explain my thinking on it. Call me out if I say something stupid, it's probably just because it's late.

When a person marginalized people generally respond in one of two ways. They lash out at those they can to claim power or they try to make sure others don't feel the same way they do. Sometimes both because humans are weird and sometimes suck.

It's something that geek culture as a whole has been struggling to come to grips with as it becomes more and more mainstream. For every comic book guy from the simpsons we have someone quietly enjoying the hobby with her friends.

From here, we hold course. Encourage and support those who are open and accepting to everyone, and discourage those who don't.

Will Wheatons Rule. Don't be a Jerk
(paraphrased)

From my personal experience: I have a GREAT Local Games Store that's open, friendly, and doesn't allow anyone to degrade anyone else. i've seen caustic personalities asked to correct themselves or to not return.

I actively want a mix of gender's at the table because I feel it's a more rewarding game experience. Different life experiences bring a breadth of different gaming styles.