balance issues with factotum

[kaffalidjmah]

ok last night i gathered some player and started the new campaign. will be form 5 to 15 (or 16/17, already to decide)

i have said "guys, low tier stuff, please stay in tier 4-5-6" "i wanna do the factotum" "usually is tier 3" "...and if don't pick font of inspiration?"

well, his opinion is that having 8+ inspiration point is one of the big power point of the factotum. you know, spectral hand + shivering touch + cunning surge + cunning breach. 11-level combo, that you can do twice in a round if you use some homebrew feat. otherwise, this combo is available only at level 17 (for the inspiration point). you can also do some serious business, like bombarding people with int-based based to hit and damage, adding standard action and more and more stuff. with the limitation, you can't do many things so frequently. you can still instakill a dragon at level 17, but many other character will do the same. but you can't instakill a dragon every round, that is possible only with the font of inspiration feat.

i have to say that is interesting for an argument, but i feel that the factotum is still tier 3, it have too many option, even without the font of ispiration. maybe is in the low pool of the tier 3. but your opinion?

(i agreed that if the forum opinion will be with him, i will grant him this wish)

[Troacctid]

Arcane Dilettante is what really pushes the Factotum to T3. Spells are great, even if you don't get a lot of them per day. That plus a very versatile chassis with lots of skills is enough to be T3 without Font of Inspiration.

However, bear in mind that a lot of the Factotum's power is reliant on smart, creative play by the pilot. The ceiling is decently high, but in the hands of an unskilled player, you won't necessarily get there. If you use your spell slots unwisely, you will end up closer to a Rogue or Spellthief in power level.

[Pluto!]

Without FoI and outside gestalt, I've seen a lot of very incompetent Factotums. Adding ability scores isn't all that powerful on its own, and they get very few SA dice or spells per day.

I hear people on the forums talk Factotums up, usually exploiting the fact that their spells are SLAs, capitalizing on FoI bonus actions or digging deep for Iajitsu Focus, but when those things aren't happening, the class has been less than impressive.

Still definitely T3 though. Because spells.

[Galen]

Seconding the opinion that Factotum is definitely T3 even w/o Font of Inspiration.

[AvatarVecna]

Normally, Clerics and Wizards are Tier 1 or lower. That's their potential, which they don't necessarily have to meet all the time. If a wizard only ever prepares blasting spells, and doesn't even really optimize for blasting (via metamagic abuse/stacking, Energy Substitution, and so on), are they really operating at Tier 1? Probably not. If a cleric prepares nothing but healing spells, and doesn't even optimize for healing, are they really operating at Tier 1? Probably not.

Here's the thing that you must keep in mind, though: just because a player isn't playing their build optimally doesn't mean they can't later on if they decide the situation warrants it. If that wizard's player is tired of straight damage-blasting, they'll switch to Color Spray, Cloudkill, Summon Monster (N), Geas, and so on; if that cleric's player gets tired of just healing people, they'll stop playing the reactive game and start playing the proactive game, with stuff like Divine Power, Aid, Summon Monster N, Holy Word, and so on.

I realize that Clerics and Wizards have a lot more raw power and a lot more flexibility than a Factotum does, but the example remains: if the player isn't playing their character to the maximum potential its build allows, be prepared for the day(s) when they want to play their character to its build's full potential. That day will come, and you must be prepared to make that argument, if you allow them to play factotum now.

[WhamBamSam]

What homebrew feat are you talking about? Font of Inspiration is WotC published, even if it is in an online article.

Factotum is certainly worse without FoI, but it's still within T3. It drops from the top end of T3 to somewhere nearer the bottom, but it's still there.

[Troacctid]

I will say that if it's a question of whether the character can do individual things that are overpowered, e.g. doing ten zillion damage in a single round, that's something you're highly unlikely to see from a Factotum without Font. Factotums are very versatile and can be competent in many different areas, but it's highly unlikely that they will outperform a specialist in those areas. Especially if the area is combat. They really aren't that great in combat.

[EyethatBinds]

I'm just going to confirm you're all talking about the feat that gives you one (and only one) more inspiration point. Right? Not familiar with the online stuff from WotC.

[eggynack]

I'm just going to confirm you're all talking about the feat that gives you one (and only one) more inspiration point. Right? Not familiar with the online stuff from WotC.
That is indeed the one, but each subsequent time you take it it's worth one more inspiration point, such that three uses would yield six points.

[EyethatBinds]

That is indeed the one, but each subsequent time you take it it's worth one more inspiration point, such that three uses would yield six points.

Nice. So if you take it at every opportunity you'd get 36 extra inspiration points? Which you can now use to simulate other feats? Seems almost too good.

[Doc_Maynot]

I don't see how they let you emulate feats. All Factotum's Cunning Brilliance (their capstone) does is let one emulate three (Ex) class features from a class of 15th level or lower for a minute a day each.

[EyethatBinds]

You're right, I'm probably thinking Chameleon PrC.

[Rebel7284]

You can take Font of Inspiration a number of times equal to your int modifier.

Anyway, while a factotum remains a very flexible character and thus a good player will never feel useless, a Factotum is unlikely to overshadow other characters in their niches. Therefore, I feel it is appropriate to a tier 4-5 game.

Some other things I would rule.

1. Extra actions only 1/round. Fairly sure that was the intent.
2. No Iajitsu focus. Fairly sure the designers did not intend this use of "all skills known" and it's for an obscure 3.0 source.
3. Ask him to avoid the most broken spells (No shivering touch/venomfire/polymorph)

I feel everything will be fine.

[kaffalidjmah]

thank you for the answer, i gladly appreciated all that. the problem is, this player have played something like 4/5 factotum, so he IS a skilled factotum player. using the most broken spell is a problem because the factotum can pick from all the sorc/wiz spell. banning specific spell is a little unfair for me but can be a solution. the other feat i am saying are from...wait a moment i check a second....here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?58010-New-Factotum-feats-and-epic-progression&highlight=factotum+epic), found it. thank for all the aid guys

[Grod_The_Giant]

Spellcasting aside, if you're operating in a low-tier game, skills are going to be a lot more important than normal. And the Factotum is better than anyone else at skills, hands-down. They get more skills, get big bonuses to all the physical skills, can get huge bonuses to any skill they want, repeatedly over the course of the day.

If you want to weaken him for a low-tier game, I'd make Inspiration Points a daily resource, and put a limit on spells known (say, start with 2/spell level, then gain 1 known/level until you're up to 4 or 5). That ought to help somewhat. If you want to go further with banning specific spells (probably for all players), I put a lot of effort into finding the worst offenders for my ban list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16920440&postcount=2).

[sideswipe]

thank you for the answer, i gladly appreciated all that. the problem is, this player have played something like 4/5 factotum, so he IS a skilled factotum player. using the most broken spell is a problem because the factotum can pick from all the sorc/wiz spell. banning specific spell is a little unfair for me but can be a solution. the other feat i am saying are from...wait a moment i check a second....here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?58010-New-Factotum-feats-and-epic-progression&highlight=factotum+epic), found it. thank for all the aid guys

honestly just talk to him and say the issues you have. say you are worried it will break the game if played to its full potential (since your specifically T4 or lower) and ask him just to keep cheese and broken spells to a minimum and for emergencies.

honestly without some real shenanigans 3-5 ish spells of 4th level or lower per day wont break too much, maybe just end an encounter or two if he prepared well. if you throw enough challenges (which don't all have to be combat) he will run out of tricks after the first 2 ish and resort to mundane.
i like the whole 2 locked doors thing for the wizard who likes knock.

[Grek]

You should not allow your players to play a factotum. In this campaign or in any other. It is a bad class. It either breaks the game with cheese, or it does nothing worth doing. It's not able to produce a middle ground between those two extremes.

[Eloel]

You should not allow your players to play a factotum. In this campaign or in any other. It is a bad class. It either breaks the game with cheese, or it does nothing worth doing. It's not able to produce a middle ground between those two extremes.

Here, you forgot this: [/sarcasm]

[sideswipe]

You should not allow your players to play a factotum. In this campaign or in any other. It is a bad class. It either breaks the game with cheese, or it does nothing worth doing. It's not able to produce a middle ground between those two extremes.

ummm really? i have played a few non broken factotums who have contributed to parties containing moderately played T1 classes. it does what it says on the tin. its just a class that can be a complete trap class if you follow the fluff and try to do everything with it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You should not allow your players to play a factotum. In this campaign or in any other. It is a bad class. It either breaks the game with cheese, or it does nothing worth doing. It's not able to produce a middle ground between those two extremes.
Umm, no? I played a Factotum in a fairly low-op group. Grabbed Knowledge Devotion, Craven, and did passable damage with excellent skill-utility. Dip Swashbuckler for Int to damage, take Improved Trip or something to take advantage of Brains Over Brawn, and rock out.

[Grek]

That's my point. You could have just played a rogue and accomplished basically the same thing, except without a needlessly complicated build. Everything you can do with a factotum is either better represented with some other class, or broken.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's my point. You could have just played a rogue and accomplished basically the same thing, except without a needlessly complicated build. Everything you can do with a factotum is either better represented with some other class, or broken.
The factotum is really the only good smart warrior, though. No-one else gives you so much use out of your Intelligence modifier. Plus, having the renewable resource for special options was fun.

[Karl Aegis]

That's my point. You could have just played a rogue and accomplished basically the same thing, except without a needlessly complicated build. Everything you can do with a factotum is either better represented with some other class, or broken.

You'd need to make a build that was needlessly complicated if you were playing a rogue if you wanted to compete with a factotum. The example factotum just took fairly common feats. That isn't needlessly complicated.

[eggynack]

That's my point. You could have just played a rogue and accomplished basically the same thing, except without a needlessly complicated build. Everything you can do with a factotum is either better represented with some other class, or broken.
He took three relatively well known feats and dipped into a single class. I don't see how anyone could possible describe that as needlessly complicated, especially because you could easily drop the swashbuckler and probably get a more powerful build for it. I mean, the rogue gets even greater benefits out of craven, and improved trip is the polar opposite of needlessly complicated, so right now your entire dividing line for needless complication is a feat from a complete book. A feat which, again, really isn't strictly necessary. Neither is craven, actually. A straight factotum without any feats is pretty great at the whole skill monkey jack of all trades shtick, with their magic backing up their crazy skill use, or vice versa. And, finally, I would definitely consider the factotum the better choice for that skill monkey role than the rogue, complicated build or no.

[WhamBamSam]

That's my point. You could have just played a rogue and accomplished basically the same thing, except without a needlessly complicated build. Everything you can do with a factotum is either better represented with some other class, or broken.No, the build he described is noticeably better as a Factotum (though in absence of the houserules I assume Grod was using it really ought to have one Rogue level at level 1 so it actually qualifies for Craven). It's more SAD, is generally better at skills, can trip, and so on. All it costs is some consistency in Sneak Attack dice. And I don't think that build is needlessly complicated, or even particularly complicated at all.

There are a lot of concepts that are better served with Factotum than Rogue or indeed anything. As an example, and one which I don't consider all that "out there," I was playing in a game not too long ago with a group whose system mastery was significantly less than my own. As I, and many others who enjoy the gamist aspects of the game, generally do in such situations, I decided to optimize around a silly concept. Specifically, I wanted to set traps, then force people into those traps. The mundane means of moving enemies that I thought of (bull rush, Setting Sun throws), involved Str checks, but setting the traps required Dex-based stealth, and the class from which I wanted to get my trap-setting feature has Int-based casting. So I went with Azurin Factotum 3/Swordsage 2/Trapsmith 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 3/Swordsage +x. I could have used Martial Rogue 2 instead of Factotum 3 and made some other tweaks, and there would be some merits to that, but I personally feel the Int SAD-ness was worth it. I don't think that's an abusive use of Factotum, and it wasn't a broken or particularly unintended one.

I'm also perfectly fine with most of the cheese you seem to find distasteful, and hold designer intent largely in contempt, so perhaps I'm not the best spokesman for the class, but whatever. Factotum doesn't fit in a T4 game, because even without FoI, it isn't T4. It is, however, a class which I'm very fond of and will recommend people allow in most games, or play if I think it might help the concept they're working on.

[Grek]

Complexity isn't just how many different classes you take levels in, or what feats your build requires. It's a measure of your DM's patience. In order to play a factotum, you have to first convince your DM to allow cityscape, explain to them what a factotum is, explain to the DM how the class works, convince the DM that no, getting extra standard actions and stealing abilities off other people's class lists is totally balanced, and possibly explain to the DM how to pronounce the words "factotum", "dilettante", "iaijutsu" and "opportunistic". Ditto for swashbuckler, if you want to take levels in that, or any other thing you want to multiclass into for a one level dip. Eventually, your DM is probably going to just say "No, I don't want to read another sourcebook. Pick something else."

So what are you getting for making your DM read up on factotums? And what are you losing?

As a factotum, you gain:
1 HP per level.
Martial weapons and shields proficiency.
A better class skills list.
+Int to select skill checks and eventually AC
A decent bonus to each skill, once per day per skill.
Avoid one thing that would kill you per day.
The ability to spend a limited pool of points on any of the following:
-Get +Int to attack roll, damage roll or a save.
-Prepare below-level-appropriate spells as SLAs with several benefits.
-Turn, but not Rebuke Undead.
-Take extra standard actions.
Cunning Brilliance at level 19.

But lose:
2 skill points per level.
Most of your sneak attacks*.
Evasion.
Trap Sense, if you care about that sort of thing.
Uncanny dodge, and later Improved uncanny dodge.
Rogue Special Abilities, such as:
-Defensive Roll
-Skill Mastery
-Improved Evasion
-Slippery Mind
-Bonus Feats.
Ability Scores. You need to put extra points in Wisdom for Opportunistic Piety; the rogue doesn't.

*Yes, Cunning Strike exists. No, it isn't better than having actual sneak attacks.

I personally don't feel like that's worth it. It's not about me thinking the Factotum is cheesy. By itself, the Factotum class is pretty ordinary. But you never see a single-classed Factotum - it's always part of some outre build that wants to pile together five different classes across as many sourcebooks to accomplish what you could have accomplished using core books only by declaring that you were going to play a single-classed rogue, put ranks in UMD and buy a Ring of Blink as soon as it becomes practical. It makes me cringe to see someone invest their entire cheese/making the DM read extra sourcebooks/rules lawyering budget on that instead of something more interesting.

[squiggit]

I'd say factotum fits pretty well in a T4 game.

The biggest difference between a T4 and a T3 isn't strength, it's options. A factotum might be objectively better than a barbarian because the factotum has a lot more options with any given build, but isn't likely to obsolete the barbarian at the barbarian's own game. The only class really at risk is the rogue.

[eggynack]

Complexity isn't just how many different classes you take levels in, or what feats your build requires. It's a measure of your DM's patience. In order to play a factotum, you have to first convince your DM to allow cityscape, explain to them what a factotum is, explain to the DM how the class works, convince the DM that no, getting extra standard actions and stealing abilities off other people's class lists is totally balanced, and possibly explain to the DM how to pronounce the words "factotum", "dilettante", "iaijutsu" and "opportunistic". Ditto for swashbuckler, if you want to take levels in that, or any other thing you want to multiclass into for a one level dip. Eventually, your DM is probably going to just say "No, I don't want to read another sourcebook. Pick something else."
None of those things is particularly complicated. It's all just kinda normal class stuff. You'd face similar issues with just about anything outside of core, and if you're going to label anything outside of core needlessly complicated, then I think your views are just naturally going to conflict with those of this forum. It's not even a setting specific book. It's a reasonable popular class that a DM has a good chance of knowing about, just because people sometimes know things. And I dunno that someone who can't pronounce opportunistic is necessarily someone I want to be gaming under.


Ability Scores. You need to put extra points in Wisdom for Opportunistic Piety; the rogue doesn't.
You're calling the rogue more SAD than one of the most SAD classes in the game? That's just crazy talk right there. In any case, the magic and extra actions are probably enough on their own to justify factotum better than the rogue. That they're also significantly better at skills, especially because the skill point deficit might well be non-existent or factotum favorable due to int synergy, makes the comparison even more factotum favorable.


I personally don't feel like that's worth it. It's not about me thinking the Factotum is cheesy. By itself, the Factotum class is pretty ordinary. But you never see a single-classed Factotum - it's always part of some outre build that wants to pile together five different classes across as many sourcebooks to accomplish what you could have accomplished using core books only by declaring that you were going to play a single-classed rogue, put ranks in UMD and buy a Ring of Blink as soon as it becomes practical. It makes me cringe to see someone invest their entire cheese/making the DM read extra sourcebooks/rules lawyering budget on that instead of something more interesting.
Factotum comes single classed reasonably often, and you don't really need any books to make the class work. I think the issue here is that you've been reading a lot of Tippy builds that use factotum, and got the impression that every factotum build is like that. They are very much not. Factotum 20, or maybe factotum 19/x 1, cause 20 is a bit dead, is a very viable build throughout its progression. You can go deep with complexity, and those builds are awesome, but it is in no way necessary. The fact of the matter is that most really optimized builds look like that, because the inevitable outcome of a massive quantity of books is some things better than what you're getting in your base class and base book. You think optimal barbarians tend to run nothing but core and go barbarian 20? It's just not the case.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Complexity isn't just how many different classes you take levels in, or what feats your build requires. It's a measure of your DM's patience. In order to play a factotum, you have to first convince your DM to allow cityscape, explain to them what a factotum is, explain to the DM how the class works, convince the DM that no, getting extra standard actions and stealing abilities off other people's class lists is totally balanced, and possibly explain to the DM how to pronounce the words "factotum", "dilettante", "iaijutsu" and "opportunistic". Ditto for swashbuckler, if you want to take levels in that, or any other thing you want to multiclass into for a one level dip. Eventually, your DM is probably going to just say "No, I don't want to read another sourcebook. Pick something else."
My experience (with a guy who'd never DMed before):
"Hey, no-one else is playing a skillmonkey. How about the factotum? It's sort of a jack-of-all-trades, smart fighter kind of guy. I get Int to a couple things, and eventually a bonus action or two and a few spells."
"Sure, sounds cool."


+Int to select skill checks and eventually AC
It's less "select skills" and more "practically every skill." Have you seen how many Strength and Dexterity based skills there are? And how many important skills fall under those? (Hide? Tumble? Escape Artist?) Almost all of the thief skills are Dex based; you'll have a good Dex and be adding a good Int. The ability also applies to ability checks. Like combat maneuvers. How much would you like to be able to add a second ability score to Trip attempts? Or have a viable bonus as a non-Strength based character? Oh, and arguable Initiative. So there's that.


A decent bonus to each skill, once per day per skill.
A quite large bonus to a skill you worked on, or enough to turn a single-point dip into almost-full investment.


Avoid one thing that would kill you per day.
Will literally save your life.

The ability to spend a limited pool of points on any of the following:

-Get +Int to attack roll, damage roll or a save.
That's your best stat to a saving throw.


-Prepare below-level-appropriate spells as SLAs with several benefits.
Access to utility spells, without needing spellbooks or anything like that.


-Turn, but not Rebuke Undead.
Divine Feats are pretty sweet. This lets you use them.


-Take extra standard actions.
Phenominal, even if you're just using it to move and full attack.


2 skill points per level.
Hahaha, no. You've probably got two or three times the Int of a rogue.


Evasion.
You can get a ring if you care; you probably don't.


Trap Sense, if you care about that sort of thing.
Uncanny dodge, and later Improved uncanny dodge.
Pretty weaksauce.


Rogue Special Abilities, such as:
Cunning Dodge is flat-out better than Defense Roll; Skill Mastery, Improved Evasion, and bonus feats are nice but certainly not any better than things like Cunning Surge and Opportunistic Piety; Slippery Mind is largely balanced out by Cunning Insight.


Ability Scores. You need to put extra points in Wisdom for Opportunistic Piety; the rogue doesn't.
You really don't, unless you're taking a lot of Divine Feats. Meanwhile, you need less Con (because of your larger hit die), less Strength (because of Brains Over Brawn), and arguably less Cha (since you've got more skill points to go around and compensate for a smaller ability mod)


I personally don't feel like that's worth it. It's not about me thinking the Factotum is cheesy. By itself, the Factotum class is pretty ordinary. But you never see a single-classed Factotum - it's always part of some outre build that wants to pile together five different classes across as many sourcebooks to accomplish what you could have accomplished using core books only by declaring that you were going to play a single-classed rogue, put ranks in UMD and buy a Ring of Blink as soon as it becomes practical. It makes me cringe to see someone invest their entire cheese/making the DM read extra sourcebooks/rules lawyering budget on that instead of something more interesting.
A 3-level Factotum dip is common to get Brains over Brawn, aye. But that's the nature of 3.5 character building for mundane characters. Even still, Factotum 20 is a perfectly viable build in most campaigns.

[WhamBamSam]

I personally don't feel like that's worth it. It's not about me thinking the Factotum is cheesy. By itself, the Factotum class is pretty ordinary. But you never see a single-classed Factotum - it's always part of some outre build that wants to pile together five different classes across as many sourcebooks to accomplish what you could have accomplished using core books only by declaring that you were going to play a single-classed rogue, put ranks in UMD and buy a Ring of Blink as soon as it becomes practical. It makes me cringe to see someone invest their entire cheese/making the DM read extra sourcebooks/rules lawyering budget on that instead of something more interesting.So you have an issue with people using their cheese budget to purchase the amount of cheese that they want? It's also worth noting that once the DM has been convinced of this for the first time, others don't have to worry about it in the future. The next time the issue comes up, the player still has cheese budget to spend on things that are more interesting, or less interesting, or equally interesting. On balance, having someone bite that particular bullet for the Factotum (or an initiator, meldshaper, psionic character, or whatever else the DM's inexperience/ignorance is keeping out of the game) leads to better gaming for the whole group in the long run.

And no. A single classed Rogue absolutely cannot accomplish the same things. That is simply not the case. Even if the Rogue could replicate whatever the mystery complex Factotum build is accomplishing through WBL, the Factotum build has the same money to spend, and is still coming out ahead.

[Anlashok]

What kind of weird world are we in where "DM has to read the class' entry" and "pronouncing opportunistic" are serious, meaningful downsides to a class?

I mean. I guess I have to agree with Grek now that I think about it:

If your DM is lazy, stupid, ignorant of game mechanics and spiteful you probably shouldn't try to play a factotum... Someone like that probably shouldn't be DMing in the first place though.

[Doctor Awkward]

Complexity isn't just how many different classes you take levels in, or what feats your build requires. It's a measure of your DM's patience. In order to play a factotum, you have to first convince your DM to allow cityscape Dungeonscape...
FTFY


explain to them what a factotum is, explain to the DM how the class works
It's like rogue, but less MAD.
And as a true jack-of-all-trades, it's what a bard should have been.
See? It's not that complex.


and , convince the DM that no, getting extra standard actions and stealing abilities off other people's class lists is totally balanced
They can't standard-action nova any more effectively than a psion.
And copying another classes abilities makes them exactly as broken as that class. We aren't really going to start saying monk abilities are overpowered, are we?


, and possibly explain to the DM how to pronounce the words "factotum", "dilettante", "iaijutsu" and "opportunistic". Ditto for swashbuckler, if you want to take levels in that, or any other thing you want to multiclass into for a one level dip. Eventually, your DM is probably going to just say "No, I don't want to read another sourcebook. Pick something else."
You don't have to do any of that. Core + Factotum 20 is fine.
And the DM doesn't have to read anything if you tell him exactly what you will be capable of and what you are planning to do with it.
If you forget to mention something then you can't do it in his game, no matter what the rules say. Tricking the DM is bad.


As a factotum, you gain:
1 HP per level.
Martial weapons and shields proficiency.
A better class skills list.
+Int to select skill checks and eventually AC
A decent bonus to each skill, once per day per skill.
Avoid one thing that would kill you per day.
The ability to spend a limited pool of points on any of the following:
-Get +Int to attack roll, damage roll or a save.
-Prepare below-level-appropriate spells as SLAs with several benefits.
-Turn, but not Rebuke Undead.
-Take extra standard actions.
Cunning Brilliance at level 19.

But lose:
2 skill points per level. You're an Int-based class. You'll more than make up the difference.
Most of your sneak attacks*.
Evasion.
Trap Sense, if you care about that sort of thing.
Uncanny dodge, and later Improved uncanny dodge.
Rogue Special Abilities, such as:
-Defensive Roll
-Skill Mastery
-Improved Evasion
-Slippery Mind
-Bonus Feats.
Ability Scores. You need to put extra points in Wisdom for Opportunistic Piety; the rogue doesn't. You don't need to put crap in Wisdom beyond 10. The healing is based off of your Int, and your Turn checks are as a cleric, and thus charisma based. Come on now...
*Yes, Cunning Strike exists. No, it isn't better than having actual sneak attacks.

You don't lose any of those bolded abilities. You can get them any day you need them with Cunning Brilliance.
Not that you would want to, since factotum already has a superior version of most of those.


But you never see a single-classed Factotum - it's always part of some outre build that wants to pile together five different classes across as many sourcebooks...
Hogwash. Factotum 20 is perfectly fine. Myself and many people I've gamed with have played it many times.


to accomplish what you could have accomplished using core books only by declaring that you were going to play a single-classed rogue, put ranks in UMD and buy a Ring of Blink as soon as it becomes practical. It makes me cringe to see someone invest their entire cheese/making the DM read extra sourcebooks/rules lawyering budget on that instead of something more interesting.

Oh for Christ's sake...
No. Wrong.

An 8th level Tiefling Factotum, without gear, is capable of freeing himself from Masterwork shackles (DC 35 Escape Artist check), using one of his 2nd level spells to Alter Self into an advespa, gaining 5 natural attacks, a natural armor bonus, and a flight speed, happily join the battle and using leftover Inspiration points to snag a little sneak attack for good measure.

These are not things that a naked Rogue does.

Is this in any way overpowered? Not really. The wizard has been doing this kind of crap since level 3, when he first got Alter Self. And while the factotum can start doing this at level 5, by then the druid has Wild Shape, which scales with level, while Alter Self does not.

If you are trying to play a low-tiered game then, well, don't do this kind of crap. Play at the party's level. Prepare Mirror Image instead of Alter Self.

Factotum is not broken. Core is broken.

[eggynack]

I'd say factotum fits pretty well in a T4 game.

True, though possibly not relevant, as the game in question also allows access to tier five and six classes. So, it really depends on what classes are actually in the game. If the party clusters around tier four, then factotum is probably fine, but if they're clustered around five or six then it's possibly not and probably not respectively.

In any case, I would advise against allowing the class. It's a tier three, and it very much deserves its tier. If your game is explicitly hanging out in the 4-5-6 range, then allowing a class of a higher tier is in direct contravention of your stated rules. At the same time, if no one's going tier six, then you can plausibly transition to 3-4-5, a rather reasonable setup, and allow other players access to those higher tiered classes. A higher powered game isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if you're giving one player more power without giving the chance to others, that just seems unfair.

[Just to Browse]

Players need to jump through some weird hoops to hit that "Tier 3" benchmark as a factotum. If you want "Tier 4-5-6" classes, then you're probably not looking kindly on iajutsu focus, item familiars, and dumpster diving for weird one-off spells. Your will be fine.

[eggynack]

Players need to jump through some weird hoops to hit that "Tier 3" benchmark as a factotum. If you want "Tier 4-5-6" classes, then you're probably not looking kindly on iajutsu focus, item familiars, and dumpster diving for weird one-off spells. Your will be fine.
Not really. As long as you're using your resources with reasonable proficiency, by picking good spells and skills, you should slot into tier three well enough. That spell access just does really good stuff.

[Pluto!]

They can't standard-action nova any more effectively than a psion.
I don't know if that counts as a defense. >_>

[DarkSonic1337]

The best spells are in core. Why do people have this weird idea that you have to go dumpster diving to break the game?

[Just to Browse]

Not really. As long as you're using your resources with reasonable proficiency, by picking good spells and skills, you should slot into tier three well enough. That spell access just does really good stuff.
That's very incorrect. The spell access is weak until around level 8, at which point it's kind of decent but still underwhelming. Only by level 10 does your spell access really pick up because you finally can cast 1 spell per encounter (not including any utility you want) and they're all worthwhile now. The problem with that is you are already edging out of the playspace that most groups will see and you're hardly raising eyebrows. The oft-heralded Tier-3-ness of the factotum comes from Schrödinger discussions reminiscent of the god wizard -- conceivably, the factotum could prepare any wizard spell from any splatbook and could have any skill ranked, and that horizontal flexibility across many sourcebooks overcomes their lack of vertical power pre-10. But in this scenario, that doesn't need to be the case.

The factotum suffers a similar problem to the bard, but worse. Its power is a drastic function of how many sourcebooks are allowed at your table, and what material passes under the cheesiness radar, so DM discretion in material choice is a big deal.

[Anlashok]

The best spells are in core. Why do people have this weird idea that you have to go dumpster diving to break the game?

Because on a site like Giantitp, people tend to build characters with heavy use of a myraid of content sources. Other people, in turn, seem to naturally assume that because we like using lots of sources and this is an optimization forum that it must be that having more than three sourcebooks worth of content in a character makes it cheese incarnate.

It's also where this drivel about "factotums suck if they aren't using iajutsu/every sourcebook in the game". People on the forums talk about builds like these because they're good, but then other people take a leap from that and assume that because they're the most talked about builds they're the only ones that exist.

It's sort of like reading a thread about chain-gating and then jumping to the conclusion that since people were only talking about chain-gating that wizards must not have any other tricks and suck if they can't chain gate.

It's silly, but that's people for you.

[DarkEternal]

From my experience playing a Factotum, and DM's grievances with them, the thing that rubs people the wrong way is more your utility outside of battle then inside of battle. Face it, you're just better in all skills than the rest of the party. You can afford yourself to invest in pretty much any skill and make it count because of your class abilities and because with INT as your main stat, after a certain level, 3/6 ths of all skills will be very doable, and better then the rest, while the others can be boosted once a day.

In battle, yeah, you can do shenanigans with your spells and Iaijutsu focus, but in my opinion, that's not what a Factotum is about. Sure, some build it differently, but my Factotum/Chameleon is at least somewhat built ultimately to be an all arounder. Equal number of damage spells, support spells, control spells and healing spells attributed. Does that make him less optimised? Yeah. But it works for me, even if I am called useless in some battles because with my nerfed skill lists I can't do much anymore(when you're level 13 and have less then fifty percent of activating a wand, you know you're up the creek without a paddle)

Still, I'd recommend the class to anyone who wants to have fun. It's a well written class that excels in a lot of things. Just remember that chances are you will overshadow your entire party in everything that's not combat, and if you build your character right, you'll be able to keep up with most of them in that as well.

[Flickerdart]

2. No Iajitsu focus. Fairly sure the designers did not intend this use of "all skills known" and it's for an obscure 3.0 source.
Iaijutsu is vastly overblown. It takes a lot more effort to set it up than even Sudden Strike (the red-headed stepchild of precision damage), the damage will be low, the skill is keyed to an attribute the Factotum doesn't prioritize, and points in Iaijutsu take away points from other useful skills the Factotum may want. Quite frankly, without it, the Factotum's only combat option is tripping, and his damage output becomes pretty much irrelevant.

[Pluto!]

Because on a site like Giantitp, people tend to build characters with heavy use of a myraid of content sources. Other people, in turn, seem to naturally assume that because we like using lots of sources and this is an optimization forum that it must be that having more than three sourcebooks worth of content in a character makes it cheese incarnate.

It's also where this drivel about "factotums suck if they aren't using iajutsu/every sourcebook in the game". People on the forums talk about builds like these because they're good, but then other people take a leap from that and assume that because they're the most talked about builds they're the only ones that exist.

It's sort of like reading a thread about chain-gating and then jumping to the conclusion that since people were only talking about chain-gating that wizards must not have any other tricks and suck if they can't chain gate.

It's silly, but that's people for you.
Holy misrepresentation, Batman!

I'm going to go on a limb and say that it's possible for conclusions different than those of the outspken GitP crowd exist independently, based on things like playing with and alongside Factotums and seeing them struggle with things like making meaningful contributions in combat without said dumpster-diving.

The class is fine, and has upward potential, but it takes 8 levels to get better casting than a 1-level Wizard dip + Precocious Apprentice, and builds centered around its abilities often fall short. For instance, things like a Tripper based around Brains Over Brawn can apply its highest ability to its melee attack via Cunning Insight, add its highest ability score to its trip via Brains Over Brawn, and apply its highest ability to its damage roll via Cunning Insight, but that's what any high-strength character would be doing by default, and more than once or twice in an encounter.

Again, I'm not saying the class is terrible. It's not. I've played them, I understand they aren't a weak class on the basis of their casting alone, and that they have a lot of mechanics and obscure resources available to exploit. But played by people who don't pore through splatbooks searching for abusable alter self forms or spells that benefit inordinately from being SLAs or digging up obscure setting-specific feats and skills to put onto the character sheet (or the obscure racial weapons that facilitate them), I've seen the class struggle in combat more often than I've seen it thrive.

[Flickerdart]

But played by people who don't pore through splatbooks searching for abusable alter self forms or spells that benefit inordinately from being SLAs or digging up obscure setting-specific feats and skills to put onto the character sheet (or the obscure racial weapons that facilitate them), I've seen the class struggle in combat more often than I've seen it thrive.
Honestly, if there's any class that's justified by their own fluff to pull out an obscure martial art practiced only by meerkats in Xen'Drik, and then combine it with a spell stolen from alternate-universe mind flayers, it's the factotum.

[ComaVision]

I've only seen one Factotum in play and the player always complained about the character being useless.

Mind you, this is the same player that played a Greenbound Summoning Druid and complained about it being useless.

[Rebel7284]

Mind you, this is the same player that played a Greenbound Summoning Druid and complained about it being useless.

*head implodes*

I know this is off topic, but HOW!?

[ComaVision]

*head implodes*

I know this is off topic, but HOW!?

Just really low-op playing despite having a very optimized build. Many a Flame Sphere and Call Lightning. She was removed from the group after two sessions with the druid.

[eggynack]

Snip
I probably wouldn't say it exactly as he did (because I would probably say it as I'm saying it right now), but I think there's a fundamental correctness to Anlashok's claims. Notably, there are several skewing factors present in an optimization forum setting that make it seem that these things are more prevalent than they actually are. Where an ordinary game would put a premium on accessibility, optimization puts a premium on obscurity, because if something is in core, then everyone probably knows about it already, so there's no point in bringing it up. Sure, I could make a thread saying, "Riding dogs: Are they awesome?" but it'd just be kinda dumb compared to an identical thread about the fhorge, despite the fact that riding dogs are better for their level. Where an ordinary game would put a premium on elegance, optimization usually puts a premium on power, seeking out the best way to do a thing even if it involves a lot of dipping.

On the reverse side of things, there are also factors that make these things seem more prevalent, even on an optimization forum, than they actually are. The fact of the matter is, when you see a build that uses a million sources and classes that you know nothing about, that build is going to eat up a lot more of your brain-space than one that's just factotum 20, even were the two to show up the same amount. Also relevant is the fact that those ridiculous builds tend to be more powerful, so if everyone's trying to stack their builds against each other's, the most ridiculous one is usually going to "win". When that build is using a class in the Tippy dominated field that is the factotum, then this becomes even more true.

In any case, I don't think these are bad things, so much as they are just necessary things. We're optimizing here, and that has as a cost that some people are going to get the wrong idea about things. Core builds are good, often great, but the one using more books, assuming other things are being held equal, and that you don't trade out good core things for bad not-core things, is going to be better. This stuff doesn't make grek right, because he is very very far from right, but I think it goes a way towards explaining why he holds these views.

[Flickerdart]

Where an ordinary game would put a premium on elegance...
I fundamentally disagree with this assertion. "Ordinary games" have just as much, if not more, multiclassing because "ordinary players" think that the best way to represent a spellcaster with a martial bent is to take some levels in wizard and some levels in fighter, whereas an optimizer would know about things like duskblade, battle sorcerer, or how to properly melee with clerics, and could just take that to 20. "Ordinary players" are also more subject to the whims of default fluff, while someone as familiar with the game as an optimizer would just refluff things to avoid taking on unnecessary and inelegant levels.

[eggynack]

I fundamentally disagree with this assertion. "Ordinary games" have just as much, if not more, multiclassing because "ordinary players" think that the best way to represent a spellcaster with a martial bent is to take some levels in wizard and some levels in fighter, whereas an optimizer would know about things like duskblade, battle sorcerer, or how to properly melee with clerics, and could just take that to 20. "Ordinary players" are also more subject to the whims of default fluff, while someone as familiar with the game as an optimizer would just refluff things to avoid taking on unnecessary and inelegant levels.
An optimizer will definitely have a better idea of how to do a given thing with maximum elegance, because such is the power of knowledge, but at the same time, if you're constructing a build for an exercise of some kind, the more complicated build is usually going to be the more interesting one for the same reason as exists for obscurity. I'm not talking about how optimizers construct real characters here, but about how they sometimes present optimization to the world. You are likely correct, however, that I didn't account for the lower degree of elegance power held by players with less system mastery, but honestly I was mostly considering the dichotomy of what an optimizer presents on a forum versus what they construct for a real game.