Enforcing Holy Water cost for Material Components?

[pwykersotz]

I was going over spells with expensive material components, and I noticed that when Holy Water is mentioned it goes unpriced in the spell description itself. Now, obviously it's technically unnecessary due to pricing elsewhere in the book. Still, it got me wondering. How many people are going to enforce the gold cost for holy water, and if you do enforce a cost, do you change it based on whether it says a 'sprinkle' or a 'vial'?

For example spells, check out Bless and Commune.

[jazzymantis]

I never noticed that, good catch.

For bless, a sprinkle is not much, I would allow them to use their holy symbol for minor material components just like you would for a wizard. If you want to cast without a holy symbol or wand I am going to make you have a bottle of holy water or carry piles of bat guano.

For commune, it just says that you need a vial of holy water, not that that bottle gets consumed. So if you had a bottle of holy water, and incense you could cast it whenever you want. Because it is not consumed, I would also treat this as a minor material component and let them use their holy symbol.

I need to look through the spells again though and see how other cases of this hold up.

[jaydubs]

I don't enforce material costs unless the spell lists material costs. For things like "a sprinkle" I just assume it's a small enough amount that it's negligible.

Aka, get yourself a glass of water. Dip your fingers lightly in it, and splash it across the room. Now see how many times you have to do that before you empty the glass.

Then ask, is this really worth tracking? Will tracking it make the game more fun? Will it set limits on something that would otherwise get out of control? Or will it just annoy both me and my players?

[pwykersotz]

I don't enforce material costs unless the spell lists material costs. For things like "a sprinkle" I just assume it's a small enough amount that it's negligible.

Aka, get yourself a glass of water. Dip your fingers lightly in it, and splash it across the room. Now see how many times you have to do that before you empty the glass.

Then ask, is this really worth tracking? Will tracking it make the game more fun? Will it set limits on something that would otherwise get out of control? Or will it just annoy both me and my players?

Of course tracking it like that won't make things more fun. It's not even in the rules that way. The components aren't consumed, so it's a one-time cost anyway. I'm just curious if people handwave the initial cost because it's not in the spell description. Your first line answered that for you perfectly. I appreciate the feedback. :smallsmile:

[TheOOB]

Note that with a spell components pouch or a focus you don't need the component as is. That said, if no cost is listed it has no cost, or the cost is negligible. Providing the component en masse may cause a problem though.

[rollingForInit]

If the cost isn't in the spell list, the spell isn't intended to cost anything. I do not see the point in adding more bookkeeping to spells and materials than what is absolutely necessary.

[Mandragola]

The way I'd think of if (if I bothered to at all!) is that a "spell component pouch" will contain components relevant to its owner. A cleric's one will contain holy water for bless, rather than bat guano for fireballs.

To be honest every cleric I've seen has used a holy symbol rather than components. This has never come up.

[ruy343]

As a scientist, I'd feel terrible not dissecting this problem until it was completely solved...

I walked over to my laboratory scale and found that an average sprinkle (technique: thumb, index, and middle fingers immersed in water to the first knuckle) was somewhere on the order of .21-.22 grams. granted, my fingers are rather long and thin, but I have fattened up considerably since getting married...

But I digress...

There's also going to be a bit of water lost on the fingers themselves, which I couldn't measure reliably with a scale, so let's go with a somewhat arbitrary .30 grams per sprinkle. Since a gram of water is equal to an ml of fluid (assuming that "holiness" does not increase the density, viscosity, or other physical properties of the otherwise-ordinary tap water the medieval cleric is using), that's .3ml per sprinkle.

Now, the next question is: how big is a "flask" of holy water? I'm away from my book right now, but I'm going to guess 10 oz, or roughly 300 ml (which would be large enough for you to dip fingers into if it has a wide mouth). This creates a wonderfully convenient calculation of 300 (ml/flask)/ .3 (ml/sprinkle) = 1000 (sprinkles/flask)

Note that this does not account for evaporation through the likely-cork opening of the flask, nor does it account for any spillage, or any other variables.

But as a DM: I frankly wouldn't even track it. I'd just have them make sure that they had a bottle in their inventory. If you did track it though would you have to reduce the damage that it inflicts to unholy creatures by 1/1000 each time you use it?

[jkat718]

As a scientist, I'd feel terrible not dissecting this problem until it was completely solved...
You are an amazing human being.


Now, the next question is: how big is a "flask" of holy water?
1 Flask = 1 pint liquid
1 pint = 4.73176*102 ml
1 Flask ≈ 1.577*103 ml


If you did track it though would you have to reduce the damage that it inflicts to unholy creatures by 1/1000 each time you use it?
Of course not. Sprinkling the holy water doesn't reduce its holiness, just it's quantity. Rather, a single flask of holy water has 1,577 charges/uses/sprinkles to be used as material components.

[jaydubs]

As a scientist, I'd feel terrible not dissecting this problem until it was completely solved...

I walked over to my laboratory scale and found that an average sprinkle (technique: thumb, index, and middle fingers immersed in water to the first knuckle) was somewhere on the order of .21-.22 grams. granted, my fingers are rather long and thin, but I have fattened up considerably since getting married...

But I digress...

There's also going to be a bit of water lost on the fingers themselves, which I couldn't measure reliably with a scale, so let's go with a somewhat arbitrary .30 grams per sprinkle. Since a gram of water is equal to an ml of fluid (assuming that "holiness" does not increase the density, viscosity, or other physical properties of the otherwise-ordinary tap water the medieval cleric is using), that's .3ml per sprinkle.

Not sure how the exact logistics of the scale, so there could be an obvious reason this wouldn't work.

But could you start with the container and water on the scale, measure it's weight, and then just subtract whatever is left after dipping your fingers? Seems like that would give you a measurement equal to the total from both the actual sprinkle, and whatever is wasted during the process.

And no, I suppose the exact amount doesn't really matter. Just curious.

[ruy343]

Not sure how the exact logistics of the scale, so there could be an obvious reason this wouldn't work.

But could you start with the container and water on the scale, measure it's weight, and then just subtract whatever is left after dipping your fingers? Seems like that would give you a measurement equal to the total from both the actual sprinkle, and whatever is wasted during the process.

And no, I suppose the exact amount doesn't really matter. Just curious.

I did it that way because I was curious about how much would actually be sprinkled. I mean, I've heard people say to add a sprinkle of this or that, but I've never quantified how much that is.

Now I know.

Your technique is a better one, however, for measuring the amount removed from a flask of holy water. I'll do it tomorrow while I'm in the lab and I'll let you know!

[jaydubs]

Should be interesting, in a sort of purely intellectual way.

It also seems like one of those info blurbs you can pull out at the most unexpected moments.

"How much holy/unholy water is consumed in that spell? Well, it happens to be exactly 0.859 grams! How do I know?" *cites thread*

[TheOOB]

The way I'd think of if (if I bothered to at all!) is that a "spell component pouch" will contain components relevant to its owner. A cleric's one will contain holy water for bless, rather than bat guano for fireballs.

To be honest every cleric I've seen has used a holy symbol rather than components. This has never come up.

My interpretation was that a spell components pouch doesn't necessarily have the listed components for the spells you can cast, but is instead filled with something a caster of your tradition uses to cast spells, be it magic dust, small bones, small pages of scripture, ect.

[jkat718]

@The OOB: Huh, I've never heard that interpretation before.

[jaydubs]

"A component pouch is a small, watertight leather belt pouch that has compartments to hold all the material components and other special items you need to cast your spells, except for those components that have a specific cost (as indicated in a spell's description)."

I'm still very much in the "it includes all the unpriced components" camp.

But I'll concede the other interpretation isn't entirely unreasonable. Just because it has the space to hold all those components, doesn't necessarily mean it comes with those components.

Still, the sides have been drawn and fought over in different systems and in other threads. Suffice it to say I find it easier just to assume it comes with them, rather than asking players to go and buy them individually. I don't find the hassle to be very much fun.

[jkat718]

@jaydubs: I believe what TheOOB was saying was that, rather than holding whatever the spell is listed as using for material components, it books something specific to your spellcasting method, be it holy water for Clerics, special plant bits for Druids, whatever. The issue I have with that is, for multiclassing, do you just learn how to cat your new class'spells with your old class' methods? Or is it assumed that, some time during the already-hand waved time you spent training in your new class, you picked up the components?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

The way I handle material components is this: The Component Pouch is essentially a fund my spellcasting PCs can deposit into. Whenever a spell calls for a material component, I assume they have it on hand. If the component is consumed, the total in the Component Fund goes down. They aren't burning 100gp to cast that spell, but rather they spent Xgp to purchase "everything" that they might need, and so they just remove gold in this fund to represent having foresight earlier.

[jkat718]

@Ninjadeadbeard: Huh, that's an interesting approach. Not sure how realistic it is, but it definitely give more freedom to the players. What do you do if the material components are more than 100gp? Do you just require those components to be bought ahead of time?

[georgie_leech]

I suspect the 100gp figure was an illustration, rather than a hard limit of how much money could be "deposited" into the Component Fund.

[jkat718]

I think the reason Ninjadeadbeard used 100 gp was because that's the cost of a component pouch. AFB, so I can't check right now.

[TrexPushups]

Most games I have seen have never tracked components for spells.

Too much going on at table etc. at best gold cost equivalent gets deducted from total.

But I fear something is being lost with this approach. Mainly the oppurtunity to have players risk running out of resources like specific gems, rubies and the like.

Or even cooler the impetus for going out to claim the required components or prevent someone else from getting ahold of the items. The hand waving gets rid of paper work but does it also get rid of verisimilitude? Is it better for players to begin worrying because the cleric is starting to run out of diamonds and local sources are not well stocked?

Only a specific play group can decide.

[ruy343]

You are an amazing human being.

1 Flask = 1 pint liquid
1 pint = 4.73176*102 ml
1 Flask ≈ 1.577*103 ml


D'awww, thanks.

According to my measurements, an average "sprinkle" of tap water with my dry fingers is somewhere between .36 and .41 grams, or approximately .38 ml.

If one pint is 473.176 ml, then that gives an approximate yield of 1245 "sprinkles". Again, this is assuming that holiness does nothing to affect the physical characteristics of tap water where I live.

Hope this helps :smallsmile:

[pwykersotz]

I never imagined my thread would come to this. I am moved to tears of admiration for the sheer number of catgirls who have been slain. I applaud you all. :smallbiggrin:

[TrexPushups]

I never imagined my thread would come to this. I am moved to tears of admiration for the sheer number of catgirls who have been slain. I applaud you all. :smallbiggrin:

I just like to imagine a story where an evil ruler is boarding all diamonds big enough to resurrect people and only releasing them to a chose few clerics.

[ZenBear]

My friend plays a Half-Gnoll Paladin and when he sprinkles "holy water" on somebody to cast Bless or to Consecrate a site he just pees on them like a dog marking territory. The DM approves.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I suspect the 100gp figure was an illustration, rather than a hard limit of how much money could be "deposited" into the Component Fund.


I think the reason Ninjadeadbeard used 100 gp was because that's the cost of a component pouch. AFB, so I can't check right now.

It was just an illustration. If a player wanted to put 10,000 GP into his component fund, then he effectively dumps 10,000 GP into his pouch and can pull it out to cast spells. Sorry for the confusion.