If Two Awakened Animals Procreate...

[JNAProductions]

Will their baby be Awakened too?

[Battlebooze]

I would assume not, though the winds of magic sometimes blow strange...

[Vogonjeltz]

I would assume not, though the winds of magic sometimes blow strange...

If you're the DM, it's up to you!

[JNAProductions]

I am (sometimes), but I'd rather hear what the Playground as a whole thinks.

I may intend to create an orchard-fortress populated by intelligent bears, bees, and all manner of loyal and nasty critters when I play. You know. For fun.

[Vogonjeltz]

I am (sometimes), but I'd rather hear what the Playground as a whole thinks.

I may intend to create an orchard-fortress populated by intelligent bears, bees, and all manner of loyal and nasty critters when I play. You know. For fun.

Right? I'm saying what anyone else thinks shouldn't impinge on your fun.

If you think it's fun to run a world where that doesn't work (I would imagine a world of awakened beasts whose progeny was doomed to normalcy would place a huge premium on being able to awaken that progeny) then do so.

If you think it's more fun to have a world where it does (perhaps it's an explanation of how new anthropomorphic races get their start) then do that.

[JNAProductions]

The issue is the agate. There's no way to reliably get the agate in one place, you have to mine. Unless...

Do elementals restore HP over time? And can an Earth Elemental be made of agate? Because if both those are a yes, I believe I have an Awakening engine.

[Kane0]

Sure, why not?

But not every one. Have a chance that the intelligence isnt inherited, thus retaining the value of the awaken spell and RP opportunities while also keeping the population of awakened animals somewhat stable.

[Battlebooze]

I think Kane0 has a point. If I were running, there might be a minor chance for a fully awakened baby animal to be born. On the other hand, I'd be inclined to give the babies who didn't make the cut an inheritable bonus point of intelligence or so. Keep awakening generation after generation, you might have a new race.

[JNAProductions]

I think Kane0 has a point. If I were running, there might be a minor chance for a fully awakened baby animal to be born. On the other hand, I'd be inclined to give the babies who didn't make the cut an inheritable bonus point of intelligence or so. Keep awakening generation after generation, you might have a new race.

I'm stealing this. Thanks, Battlebooze!

[Daishain]

In 3.5, there was a playable race of sapient shapeshifters, Tibbits, that descended from cats who used to be mages' familiars (or perhaps were still familiars and just having fun on the side, the lore wasn't clear on that point). In that same edition, familiars were essentially animals that have been awakened and granted a touch of magic ability rather than just spirits pretending to be animals. The sapience was definitely passed on through the generations, along with a bit of the magic that their progenitors were imbued with, in the long run this magic made them into something more than even an awakened.

It doesn't directly answer the question, but I suspect the odds are pretty good.

[pwykersotz]

Somehow this thread reminds me of this (http://ourvaluedcustomers.blogspot.com/2012/07/while-showing-off-her-new-surgically.html).

I agree with the majority here, I'd roll %dice on it. That said, if the smart children mate having not needed the Awaken spell, their kids would be intelligent.

[jazzymantis]

I would rule that tree could awaken other trees if they want to. Essentially it would mean that any awakened tree that didn't choose to be a druid would forgo the right to have children.

Think about how many seeds a tree could make, that would be crazy if many of them became sentient.

If the parent/s would choose to have a child they would probably get a chance to see their seedling grow up for a while, and maybe cast speak with plants on it every once in a while to get to know what kind of awakened tree it would turn out to be.
Maybe it would be considered irresponsible to awaken a seed, or too risky. It would also allow trees to awaken other species if they happened to want to "adopt".

It would also cause some class disparities possibly, with the more wealthy trees being able to afford more agate.

[Logosloki]

I would say no but only because this would add an interesting quirk for the nascent society. I would make the intelligence score inheritable. As for the agate, i'm afb right now but is the spell one that uses the agate as a catalyst or is it one if the consuming ones?

[Giant2005]

I think the offspring should be a perfectly normal animal but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do what you intend.
Magical effects don't typically pass down through generations and Awaken is a magical effect. To allow it to pass to the offspring would imply that curses too should be hereditary which in DnD isn't the case. However in literature there are plenty of examples where curses were devised which effect entire lineages and spells like that could be invented in DnD without breaking anything. To bring it back to Awaken, I don't see why a powerful Druid or perhaps even a Deity couldn't give Awaken the same treatment and invent a more powerful one that does effect a creature's entire lineage.

[Daishain]

To allow it to pass to the offspring would imply that curses too should be hereditary which in DnD isn't the case.
Most curses are temporary and weak affairs that have no impact on the person's being, they really are not comparable to the awaken effect. For an example of where a curse left its mark on future generations, take a look at the current fluff for the Tiefling race.

[pasko77]

Right? I'm saying what anyone else thinks shouldn't impinge on your fun.

If you think it's fun to run a world where that doesn't work (I would imagine a world of awakened beasts whose progeny was doomed to normalcy would place a huge premium on being able to awaken that progeny) then do so.


I like it! I think I'm going to use it. Thanks.

[Stan]

If you're going the route of inheriting features, you might consider other factors. Suppose you have 2 awakened animals of the same species. Who are their awakened offspring gong to mate with? Would they mate with common animals? That might be distasteful to them. If they did that, you might have a population of clever animals around with a couple of surviving awakened elders. If they mate with their awakened siblings, you are going to have severely inbred awakened creatures down the line, with weird mutations and much of their intelligence lost. If they can't find suitable mate, you're going to have awakened offspring who are sexually frustrated and generally hating the world. That's not a bear you want to meet.

Starting with 4+ but a small number would yield the same result but take more generations. Maybe some offspring chose one path and others chose another. Or maybe none of this is a problem because it's freakin' magic.

[Mr.Moron]

This entirely depends on the tone I'm trying to give the setting/campaign at the time. The inheritance route is definitely the more fantastic of the two.

[Daishain]

If you're going the route of inheriting features, you might consider other factors. Suppose you have 2 awakened animals of the same species. Who are their awakened offspring gong to mate with? Would they mate with common animals? That might be distasteful to them. If they did that, you might have a population of clever animals around with a couple of surviving awakened elders. If they mate with their awakened siblings, you are going to have severely inbred awakened creatures down the line, with weird mutations and much of their intelligence lost. If they can't find suitable mate, you're going to have awakened offspring who are sexually frustrated and generally hating the world. That's not a bear you want to meet.

Starting with 4+ but a small number would yield the same result but take more generations. Maybe some offspring chose one path and others chose another. Or maybe none of this is a problem because it's freakin' magic.
I don't think the D&D world actually has genetics, or mutations based on the same. Offspring are handled as if Lamarckism was in effect rather than the modes of inheritance we're familiar with. (Lamarckism is a disproven early theory of evolution in which the experiences of the parents evoke changes that are passed onto the offspring, generations of giraffes straining their necks for high branches are used as an example).

And then there's all the bloody crossbreeding going on, human with nearly every humanoid from halflings to giants, dragon with everything that moves and some things that don't, and even heaven and hell are getting in on this action...

But if mutations due to inbreeding are still a concern in the D&D world, yeah, you need significantly more than 2 to keep this alive. If interested in the creation of a stable race of sapient creatures, you can do so via two methods. One, perhaps the most strenuous, but much faster, is to simply awaken approximately 50 animals with an even distribution of male and female. The second method takes longer, but lets you tend things as you go to avoid problems. Per generation, awaken 2-5 animals of the correct type and introduce them to the budding community, keep this up for about 10 generations and things should be golden.

All of a sudden, I really want to stumble across a large city in the forest run and guarded by sapient squirrels with a fierce warrior tradition...

[dev6500]

I would say that there isn't any strong or hard rule to take a cue from for this question but considering awaken is instantaneous and instantaneous effects aren't dispellable because there is only magic for the moment it is cast, this would imply that awaken permanently changes the creature as opposed to it being a constant magical effect that can be removed. In other words, since their awakened condition isn't being maintained by magic and is part of who their creature is, their offspring should also be awakened creatures or at least have a chance of popping up as awakened creatures.

Still far enough from a RAW decision for it to require asking the dm.

[Shining Wrath]

Per genetics, no. Acquired characteristics are not inherited.

Per magic ... good question. I'd say that Awakening a creature changes its essence - an Awakened tree gains the ability to move, and so on. And that changed essence is passed on to the child.

For giggles and grins, what happens if an Awakened tree and an Awakened bear have a child? Can we create hybrids?

Does this explain centaurs? :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think the D&D world actually has genetics, or mutations based on the same. Offspring are handled as if Lamarckism was in effect rather than the modes of inheritance we're familiar with. (Lamarckism is a disproven early theory of evolution in which the experiences of the parents evoke changes that are passed onto the offspring, generations of giraffes straining their necks for high branches are used as an example).

And then there's all the bloody crossbreeding going on, human with nearly every humanoid from halflings to giants, dragon with everything that moves and some things that don't, and even heaven and hell are getting in on this action...

But if mutations due to inbreeding are still a concern in the D&D world, yeah, you need significantly more than 2 to keep this alive. If interested in the creation of a stable race of sapient creatures, you can do so via two methods. One, perhaps the most strenuous, but much faster, is to simply awaken approximately 50 animals with an even distribution of male and female. The second method takes longer, but lets you tend things as you go to avoid problems. Per generation, awaken 2-5 animals of the correct type and introduce them to the budding community, keep this up for about 10 generations and things should be golden.

All of a sudden, I really want to stumble across a large city in the forest run and guarded by sapient squirrels with a fierce warrior tradition...

Lamarckism is justly dead but epigenetics lives.

[Occasional Sage]

Per genetics, no. Acquired characteristics are not inherited.

Per magic ... good question. I'd say that Awakening a creature changes its essence - an Awakened tree gains the ability to move, and so on. And that changed essence is passed on to the child.

For giggles and grins, what happens if an Awakened tree and an Awakened bear have a child? Can we create hybrids?

Does this explain centaurs? :smallsmile:

Does it explain owlbears?

A secondary question is, what about seedlings of one Awakened and one normal tree? Since trees require pollination to breed (whether by insect or by wind), they don't have a ton of choice in the whole deal. You'd have to expect an Awakened tree to have seeds pollinated by both types, even in a stand of 50 Awakened-only neighbors, due to pollen traveling MILES via breeze or bug.

[ChubbyRain]

I think k that yes, the children should be awaken.

Think how horrible the awaken animals or whatever would feel if their children had the intelligence of an animal and no way to become more... Unless they someone cast awaken on the child (which may or may not be slightly impossible due to circumstance).

Do they treat the baby as a child? Do they treat the baby as a pet? If you awaken a child later is it really the same child or just a magically altered child?

Things get way too messed up...

[Millennium]

I'd be inclined to say no -acquired characteristics versus genetics and all that- but there's nothing to prevent the child from being awakened by anyone who knows the spell.

Imagine that a druid awakened an animal, who then became the druid's apprentice. In time, the animal learned the spell, and used it to awaken a mate and, eventually, a pack. The pack -maybe more properly called a tribe- experienced some disappointment that their children were not born awakened, but it was not a huge deal: as long as they had druids of their own, they could awaken their children.

After some trial and error, the animals found out that perhaps not being born awakened wasn't such a bad thing. The reason is that (my personal interpretation of) the awaken spell leaves the being with a mental state approximately equivalent to what a humanoid's mind would be at, given the animal's own stage of development, so casting it on a baby animals gives it the mind of a baby. Such animals eventually grow and mature, as all babies do, but it takes time: longer than it takes ordinary animals to mature, and the growth of natural instincts is likewise inhibited. That's dangerous for animals in the wild, so instead of awakening their babies, the tribe awakens them when they reach maturity. That way they awaken with the minds of adults (or at least adolescents), which is much safer for them and puts the tribe in less danger. They've essentially made the awaken spell into a rite of passage, only with a much more tangible effect and meaning than is typical of such things.

But now, there's a serious problem. The tribe was attacked by predators (or possibly hunters), and although they were able to drive these predators off, all of the tribe's shamans died in the process, and no one is left to awaken the young. So now, the the tribe's youngest awakened member has set off adventuring, to learn the secret of awakening and bring it back to his tribe so that it can carry on.

I may have to use that for an NPC at some point.

[jkat718]

I would say no but only because this would add an interesting quirk for the nascent society. I would make the intelligence score inheritable. As for the agate, i'm afb right now but is the spell one that uses the agate as a catalyst or is it one if the consuming ones?

Looks like no one answered you, sorry... The agate is consumed, yes.

[JNAProductions]

Modified Awaken-casting time of one hour and consumes the agate. Alternatively, you may cast it without the material component once a day on an animal/plant for an entire lunar month and the animal/plant will Awaken.

Consuming the agate lets you build a sizable force in a day, and an army given a week. Otherwise, it's slow but cheap.

[Giant2005]

What does an awakened creature even know? Does it come with some preloaded knowledge or does it have to learn everything from scratch as if it was a newborn?

[JNAProductions]

It knows caster's language, so I'd assume some preknowledge based on what the caster knew.

[Flickerdart]

If two people who have been fireballed procreate, will the baby come out on fire?

[JNAProductions]

1) Awaken is permenant, Fireball is just instant fire.

2) When I DM? From now on, YES!

[Gritmonger]

This is not surgery or an injury. You are changing its fundamental nature. It doesn't come out of the procedure in a sudden existential crisis, or burdened with ennui. You do not become an amethyst-wielding Moreau. It is not a reversible procedure. You might reduce its intellect through other means, but it will still retain the basics of language.

As a magical procedure, it tampers with the very essence of an organism such that its intellect is not unnatural. The spell is called "Awaken" not "Mordenkainen's Brutal Brain Grafting." Which is why plants can now walk and move, rather than screaming in horror, silently, as plants newly sentient and yet helpless.

Genetics be damned, and I say this as a undergraduate in Biology - we left them well behind with spells like "polymorph." Essences are traded in a way that would make Mendel wake up in a cold sweat, and so I would say that what triumphs is rule of cool, as well as tragic consequences.

Would it be cool to have a race of sentient squirrels led by their ancient, truly awakened matriarch, while the rest of them average a 6 or so, enough to cause real headaches in groups? Would it be tragic to have a giant tree, knowing the plight of all of its brethren, nevertheless decide that sentience is not worth the price of understanding mortality?

Then let your freak flag fly, and pass that awakened state down whatever way most makes sense for the story, as well as eliciting feels from the party for past or contemplated deeds.

[Stan]

Would it be cool to have a race of sentient squirrels led by their ancient, truly awakened matriarch, while the rest of them average a 6 or so, enough to cause real headaches in groups? Would it be tragic to have a giant tree, knowing the plight of all of its brethren, nevertheless decide that sentience is not worth the price of understanding mortality?

Then let your freak flag fly, and pass that awakened state down whatever way most makes sense for the story, as well as eliciting feels from the party for past or contemplated deeds.

This is the attitude to go for. It's fantasy. You can use any science you want as inspiration but you can throw out any you want as well. Awaken is a permanent radical change to the core of a being so it may or may not be passed on. Either way, you have the potential to make interesting, possibly tragic characters out of it. Imagine being a species with <10 members (treating the unawakened as mentally a different species). You might think you're a superhero compared to other animals of your kind. Or you might feel like a freak permanently set apart from almost everyone else.

[BootStrapTommy]

I would assume not, though the winds of magic sometimes blow strange...
Can you imagine this?

"Sorry, Sharon. Our son is just... special."

[Battlebooze]

There is an old parable that fits this thread.

Awaken an animal and you make them smart for the rest of their life; Teach your Awakened animal to be a druid and they will create a new intelligent race.

[JNAProductions]

Modified Awaken-casting time of one hour and consumes the agate. Alternatively, you may cast it without the material component once a day on an animal/plant for an entire lunar month and the animal/plant will Awaken.

Consuming the agate lets you build a sizable force in a day, and an army given a week. Otherwise, it's slow but cheap.

Modified Awakening allows for this to actually happen. That agate is just the sticky bit.

If you use this change, though, parable away.

[Coidzor]

Will their baby be Awakened too?

In the absence of rules otherwise, I would say yes. Unless I had some narrative reason to want to have some Awakened animals desperate for a way to have their children to be people as well.

[Osiris]

If two people who have been fireballed procreate, will the baby come out on fire?

Bwhahahaha! That's a good one! Mind if I sig that?

Back on topic: I don't see why not. It wouldn't really make sense if their kid wasn't awakened too.

[Vogonjeltz]

In the absence of rules otherwise, I would say yes. Unless I had some narrative reason to want to have some Awakened animals desperate for a way to have their children to be people as well.

It occurs to me that there are a number of questions that could be raised as follow ups:

What happens if only one animal is awakened, would you say their progeny was or was not awakened (I find this question gets avoided if you assume in no case is the progeny awakened)? Would they be unwilling to procreate with a mere animal now that they themselves are sentient? Would they get depressed knowing their mate was still just an animal? Would they come to resent the one who awakened them?

[Daishain]

What happens if only one animal is awakened, would you say their progeny was or was not awakened (I find this question gets avoided if you assume in no case is the progeny awakened)? Would they be unwilling to procreate with a mere animal now that they themselves are sentient? Would they get depressed knowing their mate was still just an animal? Would they come to resent the one who awakened them?
All higher order animals are sentient, that term refers to the ability to experience sensations like pain. The term you're looking for is sapient. Don't worry, very common misuse.

Regardless, in order then:

-In the event awakening is heritable, I would assume a melding of traits. The offspring of that particular union would likely not be truly awakened, but would be smarter and more cunning than most of its kind. The offspring of that generation and an awakened may still not quite make it, but a third such generation probably would be.
-Doesn't seem likely to me. They're likely to still see an unawakened animal as their kin. If a culture of awakened animals springs up, they may eventually develop such a taboo, but that takes time and won't apply in most cases we're concerned with.
-Difficult to say. Some might do so. Others might simply resolve to use their newfound intellect to care for their mate in ways they otherwise could not. I will say that problems are more likely to occur if the awakened has no other sapient creatures they can connect with at all.
-Even more difficult to say. They may or may not have reason to be resentful. Also, sapient creatures can be quite belligerent or quite forgiving, and predicting where on that scale any random person would fall into is more than a little tough.

[Coidzor]

It occurs to me that there are a number of questions that could be raised as follow ups:

Yeah, it does raise a lot of questions that you'll only want to be raised some of the time rather than all the time, unless you really like questions 24/7.



What happens if only one animal is awakened, would you say their progeny was or was not awakened (I find this question gets avoided if you assume in no case is the progeny awakened)?

I did some crude figuring on the subject when I went through and made a template version of Awaken'D Animals for 3.5. Hard for some people to resist the urge to Punnett Square, after all.

[Vogonjeltz]

All higher order animals are sentient, that term refers to the ability to experience sensations like pain. The term you're looking for is sapient. Don't worry, very common misuse.

Ah yes, I meant self aware not capable of perception. Thank you for the correction. I'll save the sentience angst for object polymorphing threads.

[allenw]

If two people who have been fireballed procreate, will the baby come out on fire?

If they continue to be fireballed up until delivery, yes. But they'll need a lot of Cure spells in the meantime.

[jkat718]

All higher order animals are sentient, that term refers to the ability to experience sensations like pain. The term you're looking for is sapient. Don't worry, very common misuse.
Thank you!


I did some crude figuring on the subject when I went through and made a template version of Awaken'D Animals for 3.5. Hard for some people to resist the urge to Punnett Square, after all.
The issue with normal 2x2 (or 3x3, depending on how you look at it) Punnett Squares is that they only cover monohybrid crossings of non-epistatic, single-allele traits. If Awaken does nothing but introduce a single "sapience" allele into the genome, where there was a "non-sapience" allele previously, then this would be okay. Interestingly, if sapience and sentience are determined by two separate genes, then we can infer--because Awaken works on plants, as well--that the spell can also introduce sentience and sapience to an organism. Theoretically, it would therefore by possible to alter the effects to introduce sapience, but not sentience, and create a conscious, but non-sensory creature. I am a horrible person. Of course, this ignores the fact that neither sentience nor sapience is directly caused by an allelic change...unless the campaign setting says it is. :smallamused: I personally like the concept of Philotic Theory (http://ansible.wikia.com/wiki/Philote#Philotic_Theory), but that's just me...


If they continue to be fireballed up until delivery, yes. But they'll need a lot of Cure spells in the meantime.
Or immunity to Fire damage! :smallbiggrin:

[AbyssStalker]

This is not surgery or an injury. You are changing its fundamental nature. It doesn't come out of the procedure in a sudden existential crisis, or burdened with ennui. You do not become an amethyst-wielding Moreau. It is not a reversible procedure. You might reduce its intellect through other means, but it will still retain the basics of language.

As a magical procedure, it tampers with the very essence of an organism such that its intellect is not unnatural. The spell is called "Awaken" not "Mordenkainen's Brutal Brain Grafting.".

Thanks for the new spell! My necromancer was wanting a new torture implement.

[MrStabby]

Interesting question. Depending on how important you want to make this to the campaign there are a few options.

1) The process that Awakens an Organism makes it sterile (makes everything simple)
2) Offspring are awakened
3) Offspring are not awakened
4) Awakening has a couple of effects - one is changing the underlying creature (e.g. boost intelligence), the other is connecting it with the caster (porting language and giving a degree of control). The underlying change is inherited but without the "connection" part of the spell no language is transferred
5) Awakening is effectively changing the essence of the organism and then it interbreeds as might be expected. Offspring have for each stat = average of their parents stats +d6 - d6. Other attributes/binary abilities can be inherited on a %. Obviously only suitable for low numbers of awakened creatures/long generation gaps otherwise within the game you could cross-breed a species of supersonic sprinting Daffodil. On the other-hand a rogue daffodil with massive intelligence would be an unusual antagonist for a campaign.
6) Creature is not born (hatched/spawned/germinated or whatever) awakened but is closer to being awakened than others. Needs just a single casting of awakening to make permenantly awoke or has higher mental stats or whatever.

I think that if the DM is worried about overuse of this then there are alternatives. When the connection is made between the caster and the creature to be awakened there is a possibility that the connection could go the other way and the caster's mental attributes could end up closer to the creature to be awakened instead.

A

[Mara]

I would say that they would have awakened babies.

Now the children would be burdened by enough intelligence such that they would not mate with each other. So awakened animals would then mate with normal animals, other awakened animals from elsewhere or not at all.

Without a lot of plot devices the awaken animals would eventually breed themselves out. With enough plot devices you *should* have a new race.

[Synovia]

The issue is the agate. There's no way to reliably get the agate in one place, you have to mine. Unless...

Do elementals restore HP over time? And can an Earth Elemental be made of agate? Because if both those are a yes, I believe I have an Awakening engine.

That's easily handwaved - the agate helps to change an unawakened animal to an awakened animal - helps imbue it with soul/magic/intelligent DNA/whatever. There's no reason the trait would/wouldn't just be passed on to offspring - there's no real rules here. Does the awakening fundamentally change what the being is? Then it could be passed on. It's up to the DM/setting/world/etc.

[Myzz]

wouldn't any awakened "creature" seek to have awakened children?

so either its children would be born awakened, or the awakened parent would level up as a druid in order to awaken it "children"...

in the case of the latter, Judgement Day shouldn't be too far off!

[Daishain]

wouldn't any awakened "creature" seek to have awakened children?
No, I would not assume that would be the case.

Sapient creatures pay a high price for the few benefits we actually get from being sapient. I happen to think the cost is worth it. A wolf that has experienced life as both a sapient and nonsapient creature might disagree. Another creature might like the changes overall, but still be content to let the changes die with them, not wishing to mess with the natural order of things.

[Clistenes]

If you get access to Polymorph Any Object you could polymorph your Awakened Animals into their Magical Beast counterparts. Your awakened dogs into Blink Dogs, your awakened wolves into Worgs or Winter Wolves, your bears into Urskans...etc. That way you would make sure that all your critters are biologically intelligent, in addition to the magic mojo that makes them Awakened.

I think that would ensure that your pets are born intelligent.

[Vogonjeltz]

If you get access to Polymorph Any Object you could polymorph your Awakened Animals into their Magical Beast counterparts. Your awakened dogs into Blink Dogs, your awakened wolves into Worgs or Winter Wolves, your bears into Urskans...etc. That way you would make sure that all your critters are biologically intelligent, in addition to the magic mojo that makes them Awakened.

I think that would ensure that your pets are born intelligent.

I think you're correct in your reasoning, but it also doesn't answer the question of two awakened animals procreating because now you're just talking about two Blink Dogs or two Worgs or two Urskans procreating instead.