View Full Version : Level 5 Duel, w/ level 1 money...help?

2007-04-09, 06:32 PM
Hello, my friend wants to have a friendly duel between two school housing places. East versus West.

We are level 5, 30 PB, but only level 1 wealth (so Wizards are bad ideas since listed to 2 spells a level).

I am not sure what class needs gear the least: I'm thinking Druid might be okay (that is Wild Shape level). But what do you think?

L˛kki Gallansbayne
2007-04-09, 06:36 PM
Pun-pun is level 5 and doesn't require any equipment at all, if I'm not mistaken. :P

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 06:36 PM
He's actually level 1.

L˛kki Gallansbayne
2007-04-09, 06:38 PM
I know they've gotten it down to that, but I was thinking of the 'classic build'. Y'know, the one that comes up as the first Google result for pun-pun.

2007-04-09, 06:39 PM
Lack of cash makes wizard a great idea- get collegiate wizard and be an elf generalist for 5 spells/level and go wild at the other guy who can't afford a magic sword or arrows.

2007-04-09, 06:46 PM
Even 2 spells/level is enough against a low magic opponent.

2007-04-09, 06:48 PM
Monk is the obvious answer, they don't need much in the way of weapons or armor to be effective combatants. They can't afford any magical items, but they have great saves, great AC if you work it right, and would be fairly effective.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 06:55 PM
VoP monk or (non VoP) wizard.

2007-04-09, 07:11 PM
Shouldn't a level 5 wizard get 3rd level spells?

I think Darfellan Ranger might be a good choice, using the Darfellan Str bonus, two-weapon fighting style, and the secondary bite, you can get a good number of attacks; rush the casters and you should be able to do significant damage. Take Dual Strike and just unload with numerous attacks.
Also, you can't go wrong with that one ranger spell. Considering it's a one shot, go Ranger 4/Barbarian 1 to get rage and fast movement.

Otherwise, A Ranged Fighter, fully loaded with feats, including rapid shot and weapon specialization, should be able to take on most 5th level characters (especially casters) pretty well. Again, go Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 for rage/fast movement/higher hit die etc.

Another good build would be a Neraph Rogue 5; make use of the very good Neraph Charge ability to hit as many opponents as possible with +3d6 Sneak Attack. Combine that with Powerful Charge and Outsider Martial Weapon Proficiency and a Greatsword you can charge each person in the opposing party at 5d6+1.5 Str; the +2 NA will make you reasonably hard to hit; and go ahead and suit yourself up in Chain Shirt since you won't need Armor Check skills for anything. Also, Evasion should be very helpful considering that this is when Wizards will have Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

2007-04-09, 07:11 PM
I dunno... I would be tempted to go with a divine spellcaster here. Even with level one wealth, you can buy halfway decent armor and weapon for a melee cleric...

Druid, even better.

2007-04-09, 09:34 PM
monk would be FTW

2007-04-09, 10:01 PM
Orc Barbarian, lots of intiative boosters, power attack and leap attack.


2007-04-09, 10:17 PM
ummm Psychic Warrior much?

You get some powerful powers and are a fighting machine able to match a full feated fighter (with human a P warrior gets 5 feats) and be able to do things a fighter can't (levitate) add damage (Dissolving Weapon) and one of the best lion's charge :smallwink:

so if you want to go power house go with P warrior

2007-04-09, 10:31 PM
PsyWar 5 or PsyWar 4/Ftr 1 is a good way to go for hardcore melee at level 5. Wildshape-focused Druid is good for the same purpose, but not as terrific as normally assumed, as you're limited to 5 HD and can't have Natural Spell yet. Summon-focused Druid does have intriguing possibilities though, as you can flood the field using SNA III. Cleric's aren't ubertanks of doom yet, but they can still do the WoW thing of "Smack. Heal. Smack. Heal." if they like.

Sorcs...can spam Scorching Ray. Don't underestimate that. Wizards get level 3 spells (Dispel Magic!), but have fewer spell slots than Sorcs and no more spells known, given wealth restrictions.

Jack Mann
2007-04-09, 10:53 PM
Eh, I wouldn't go with monk. They're deceptively dependent on equipment. VoP monk, perhaps, since they're effectively equipped, but your regular monk needs his stat boosters and other toys to be effective, or at least as effective as monks get.

Druid is probably your best bet. Especially if you can get away with Vow of Poverty.

2007-04-09, 10:57 PM
Is this a one-on-one duel, or teams.

If you're talking about a team, perhaps a monk, sorcerer, druid, maybe with a barbarian to soak up damage as needed.

2007-04-09, 10:59 PM
Cleric is a good choice. I'd pick the Travel domain, so you can fly, and the Trickery domain, so you can go invisible. At the start of combat, go invis, then just start buffing yourself (Fly, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Divine Favor, etc.) before going to fight.

With spontaneous healing, you'll be able to last a while, so long as you play your cards right. Plus you have Dispel Magic at your disposal.

If you don't mind going outside of core, and are feeling cheeky, you could always do a Master of Shrouds rush (Cleric 2/(Hexblade or Knight, or something similar) 1/Master of Shrouds 2). Your spells and melee will suffer slightly, but being able to summon several shadows against your opponent should make up for it. Still take Trickery as a domain (Summon shadows while invisible. If you want, just let them do all the work for you.) if you do this, but the importance of Travel is lessened in this case, so you could choose a different second domain.

2007-04-09, 11:19 PM
I don't remember where i saw the build but get the feat that gives 300 extra gp at start, wiz 1 - sell off your spellbook, go sorceror and buy a bunch of gaurd dogs and a tower shield. (levitate out of the way with sorc and ray him to death)

2007-04-09, 11:27 PM
Another thing to keep in mind if you choose a caster of any sort:

Unless you're going to be making substantial use of spells with saving throws attached to them, you won't need your casting stat higher than 16. That gives you a bonus spell at every level you can cast. Also, since you get a bonus stat point at level 5, you could potentially put only 15 into the casting stat initially, then boost it, to save on points when assigning ability scores.

For a straight cleric, if you had a 14 Cha, you could take Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic for one free quickened spell. There's probably optimal uses for feats, though.

2007-04-10, 12:28 AM
Wizard.... heres why
Invisibility and summoning: wins against Fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues and monks
your unseen while your summons kill.

Druids wont be able to see through your invisibility (be careful of faerie fire)

Sorcerors dont have as much spell versitility as you... granted they get 6 cantrips 7 level 1 spells and 5 level 2 spells per day (theyre only gonna know 2 spells to fling around 5 times)
however compared to the wizard: 4 cantrips, 4 first level spells, 3 second level spells, and 2 third level spells.
Basically you trade the ability to cast more first level spells... if your a sorceror and miss out on third level spells such as... fireball, fly, wind wall etc.
(you also get a bonus feat as a wizard, not much but still)

Bard has even less spells than you but he does have some nifty ones... for example tashas hideous laughter at first level and invisibility which will win against all melee and ranged. and a d6 hd. (if there was any other class i'd take, it'd be a bard)

And finally Cleric... Clerics have more hp than you, more bab, more will save, more spells per day.
But when you look at their spell casting... it doesnt have the save or lose spells. They can buff themselves.... they can cast blindness/deafness

On second thought play a cleric with the trickery domain or a wizard.

2007-04-10, 01:06 AM
comparing spell lists with a cleric to a wizard
Wizard 4 first level
expeditious retreat: retreat your movement and shoot a crossbow, they wont be able to catch up unless they all out sprint, in which case you withdraw.
Mage armor and shield combined to deal with arrows
or possibly 3 magic missiles
or one shocking grasp ftw on a coup de grace

3 Level 2 spells:
glitterdust (gives you 5 rounds to kill a blinded opponent) and gets rid of invisibility on opponents
and personally alter self (raptoran, for flight troglodyte for natural armor, aquatic elf for swimming)
but theres other options such as
False life (d10+5hp)
Blindness/deafness for longer blindness
scorching ray (4d6 damage)
tashas hideous laughter (save or die)
web (battlefield control and you can burn them in it)
summon monster 2

2 Level 3 spells:
I would go with 2 deep slumbers (save or sleep, shocking grasp coup de grace)
other options....
dispel magic
fireball (can be used to deal damage to a cleric, or readied action to cast when someone else is casting to disrupt them)
stinking cloud (aoe, save or nauseated)
summon monster 3

2007-04-10, 01:28 AM
and finally the cleric list
remember you can sub out healing for any of these spells
also if you go farlanghan you get fly in your domain
if you go olidimara you get invisibility and a luck reroll
if you go kord you get +5 str. for 1 rnd, a luck reroll, and nice buffs

4 Level 1 spells and 1 domain
I would personally go 1 divine favor
shield of faith
magic weapon
entropic shield

3 Level 2 spells and 1 domain
Bulls str.
Bears endurance
spiritual weapon
other options include
summon monster 2
hold person

2 level 3 spells and 1 domain
i would go invisibility purge
and blindness/deafness
other options could be:
bestow curse
dispel magic
summon monster 3

Remember that the strength of a cleric is not in his spells but his melee and ranged after his spells
I would go with wizard

2007-04-10, 09:56 AM
Swordsages make excellent soloists. With minimal gear, I'd single out attack bonus maneuvers and some tactical field-control moves to keep your enemies on their toes. My build would look something like this, using the Elite Array.

Halfling Swordsage 5
Str. 8
Dex. 17
Con. 13
Int. 11
Wis. 14
Cha. 8

For your feats, grab Weapon Finesse at 1st, and Adaptive Style at 3rd. Fight with a rapier, preferably, or a Setting Sun or Shadow Hand light weapon.

For maneuvers, you have 7 first level, two 2 second, and 1 third, with a single replacement of a second level at 4th. So I'd recommend:

Sapphire Nightmare Blade [Diamond Mind Strike 1] (should negate any Dex-based defenses or armored tanks, adds some damage you lack without enchantments)

Distracting Ember [Desert Wind Boost 1] (Gives you a +2 bonus for flanking from your flamey ally)

Stone Bones [Stone Dragon Strike 1] (that DR 5 is guaranteed, since adamantine is not going to be available in the 200 gp range, and should help with survivability a little)

Counter Charge [Setting Sun Counter 1] (Perhaps not the best option, but useful nonetheless in case of a melee foe)

Mighty Throw [Setting Sun Strike 1] (Take advantage of that small size. Should help you clear out any summons and move on to the real foe, if necessary.)

Moment of Perfect Mind [Diamond Mind Counter 1] (Essential. Absolutely Essential if the foe is a spellcaster)

Fiery Riposte [Desert Wind Counter 2] (Use your high Dex and Small size to strike home with this touch attack for a formidable 4d6 fire damage)

Cloak of Deception [Shadow Hand Boost 2] (Turn invisible for a round)

Emerald Razor or Flashing Sun [Diamond Mind or Desert Wind 2] (Your choice. Emerald Razor makes an attack into a touch attack, or Flashing Sun grants you an extra attack in a round.)

Baffling Defense [Setting Sun Counter 2] (Put that Wisdom to use with a total of a +10 to negate an enemy's attack.)

Bonecrusher [Stone Dragon Strike 3] (Big guns.)

As for stances, I would direct you to:

Stance of Clarity [Diamond Mind 1] (You're only fighting one foe.)

Child of Shadow [Shadow Hand 1] (Use to close with the enemy.)

Giant Killing Style [Setting Sun 3] (+2 attack and +4 damage vs. medium foes? Hell yeah!)

2007-04-10, 04:07 PM
to9b vs a wizard, level 5 duel.... i challenge you

2007-04-10, 04:32 PM
We are level 5, 30 PB, but only level 1 wealth (so Wizards are bad ideas since listed to 2 spells a level).
That bolded part is rather doubtful. A level 5 wizard who starts with an Int bonus of just +2 will have seven 1st-level spells, four 2nd-level spells, and two 3rd-level spells in her spellbook, assuming that she always takes spells of the highest level she can cast. Remember, you get two free spells each wizard level, not just each spell level. That's enough spells to prepare a different spell of the appropriate level in every spell slot she has, except for one of her 3rd-level slots if she's a specialist with 16+ Int.

The main advantages to knowing a whole ton o' spells are that you can prepare a different set of spells each day as the situation warrants and that you can create a wide variety of magic items. For a character who lacks the funds to make magic items being created to fight one duel, neither of those considerations is relevant.

I'm not saying that a wizard is the best choice, mind you. I'm saying that if she isn't the best choice, it's not because she doesn't know enough spells. :smalltongue:

2007-04-10, 04:38 PM
Druid with Venomfire wildshape in a fleshraker dinosaur with a fleshraker companion who also has the spell.

2007-04-10, 04:57 PM
Upon skimming the thread a bit more closely:

Wizards get level 3 spells (Dispel Magic!), but have fewer spell slots than Sorcs and no more spells known, given wealth restrictions.
That is Wrong. A wizard will know about twice as many spells as a sorcerer.

A wizard can also rather easily be made able to cast three 3rd-level spells (Specialist with 16 Int (just 15 to start +1 from stat boost)) in contrast to the sorcerer's zero. (Granted, two of those spells will be the same.) In fact, such a wizard has just as many total 1st to 3rd level spell slots as a sorcerer with 16 Cha (They've both got 12 of them), never mind that three of the wizard's slots are 3rd level.

That lost spell level really hurts the sorcerer here.

2007-04-10, 05:25 PM
I'll fight you if you really want, Truffles... but I don't think that's entirely relevant. I'd go with a swordsage, in this case, just because they have relatively unlimited uses of strokes and reasonably complete independence from low-level gear reliance. Nothing's stopping you from tacking on a few Martial Scripts, either, just to ice the cake, as it were.

2007-04-10, 07:53 PM
yeah i was just trying to be hard... lol

and to devils advocate
no i already added in bonus spells, you get 2 spells per level, unless im adding something wrong

and if you noticed you can only pick 2 spells, but those are all the spells he needs to know, since he only has 2 slots

Jack Mann
2007-04-10, 08:03 PM
He was responding to Nerd-O-Rama, who thought that a wizard would only know as many as a sorcerer, which is absurd. Not counting cantrips (where the wizard has a sizable advantage), a wizard without any wealth (or collegiate wizard) and 15 Int to start with would have 13 spells known. The sorcerer would have 6.

2007-04-10, 08:10 PM
Well, in a one-shot Duel-type situation, the Wizard isn't going to be bad off at all. Especially if he gets to recharge between duels.

Invisibility + Summons? Nice combo vs. most classes, provided you win initiative (Improved Initiative, and Dex as your highest score, Int actually second; you need at most a 16 Int after adjustments).

Fly + Wind Wall + Haste (okay, so you need a specialist Wizard, either an Evoker or a Transmuter)+Rapid Reload+Light Crossbow = Ownage vs. almost all non-fliers (almost because of Tower Shields, thrown weapons, sling stones, and ranged spells).

A Psion is also an excellent choice. Whatever spellcaster-type you pick, you want the prepared version for 3rd level effects.

2007-04-10, 08:37 PM
I forgot to mention Core Only. But nice ideas so far.

2007-04-10, 09:26 PM
Core only? Spellcaster. Wizard, probably. More competent spellslingers than myself have already tossed out most of my favorite strategems, but an oldie but goodie favorite of mine follows the below lines, assuming a 16-intelligence Wizard.

1st Level Spells Prepared (4):
Cause Fear
Ray of Enfeeblement x 2
Magic Missile

2nd Level Spells Prepared (3):
Summon Swarm
Protection From Arrows

3rd Level Spells Prepared (2):
Summon Monster III
Heightened Web

Take advantage of buff rounds (make sure there are at least 1) to secure yourself with 50 insurmountable points of DR vs. arrows, in case your plan is partially foiled.

To start, throw up the first Heightened Web spell squarely over the enemy. Follow immediately with the Summon Swarm spell, choosing, obviously, spiders. Direct the swarm to move effortlessly through the webs and engulf the laboring opponent. If they are a hulking bruiser, consider following up with a Ray of Enfeeblement or Cause Fear to make their progress towards you that much more difficult. Follow with a new Web, to add to the area they have to cover, in the next round. Having now been subject to two doses of poison and 2d6 damage, and still ensnared in webs, the enemy is not happy.

Make him considerably less happy by conjuring 1d3 Fiendish medium monstrous spiders, and dispatch them to frolic in the webs with him and make his life fun and AoO filled. Ignite the webs with Burning Hands when he starts making progress, to increase his displeasure, and be sure to add in a 2d4+2 of magic missile.

If the enemy is a caster, the following alterations are to be enacted:

1st Level Spells Prepared:
Ray of Enfeeblement x 2
Mage Armor

2nd Level Spells Prepared:
Summon Swarm
Hideous Laughter

3rd Level Spells Prepared:
Summon Monster III
Protection from Energy

Talk your way into as many buffing rounds as possible. The priority order on your buffs is Protection from Energy, Shield, Mage Armor. In the first round of combat, toss Hideous Laughter at your foe to incapacitate him. Follow up with a Web, if desired, or just skip straight to the swarm of spiders to engulf him, distract his spells, and poison his low-Fort ass. Fiendish Spiders or a single Dire Boar should be able to screw him up pretty badly if he's in the open and unwebbed, and enough Rays of Enfeeblement will result in his complete inability to make progress through any webs you put in place.

The spiderlord build also has a lot of RP potential...

You can splat this one up a bit, too, but that's going straight core.

2007-04-11, 02:43 AM
thats a nice build annarrkkii: but it seems like its built too much around the web and spiders. In a one shot tournament your gonna want as many save or dies and impedements.
invisibility is win against all melee with no gear.

That wizard was all core as well