Elemental Evil Player's Companion PDF released, for free

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Grab it here: http://www.dndclassics.com/product/145542/Elemental-Evil-Players-Companion-5e?filters=0_0_45190
(http://www.dndclassics.com/product/145542/Elemental-Evil-Players-Companion-5e?filters=0_0_45190)

New races: Aarakocra, Deep Gnome, 4 types of Genasi, and Goliaths.
40+ New Spells

Also, a player's guide has been added to the Adventure's league info: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/adventurers-league-resources

[Forrestfire]

I think the most interesting part of this is that the aarakocra have flight at level 1. Also, I really like that there are element-bending cantrips :smallbiggrin:

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I think the most interesting part of this is that the aarakocra have flight at level 1. Also, I really like that there are element-bending cantrips :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, it's neat, but I foresee that particular player race being banned at a lot of tables. Heck, even the Adventurer's league won't allow it.

[Giant2005]

This is awesome! I love the new spells - especially the likes of Beast Bond. Spells that buff a Ranger's Animal Companion were sorely lacking in the Player's Handbook.

[Gritmonger]

On the Aarakocra, this was interesting to note:

Flight. You have a flying speed of 50 feet. To use this
speed, you can’t be wearing medium or heavy armor.
...add to this that the base walking speed is 25', and there are no additional proficiencies except unarmed in natural weapon. The armor use versus flying movement prohibition is a potentially very serious one, but I suppose offsets the flight ability at level 1.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

On the Aarakocra, this was interesting to note:

...add to this that the base walking speed is 25', and there are no additional proficiencies except unarmed in natural weapon. The armor use versus flying movement prohibition is a potentially very serious one, but I suppose offsets the flight ability at level 1.

So play a monk or barbarian who greatly benefit from increased mobility, or any full caster or a rogue who would absolutely love to be able to keep themselves out of reach of melee attackers.

Really it only limits you in terms of str-based, melee attackers other than barbarian. So fighter, paladin and some clerics.

[obryn]

40+ New Spells

:smallsigh:

[Giant2005]

I think the most interesting part of this is that the aarakocra have flight at level 1. Also, I really like that there are element-bending cantrips :smallbiggrin:

The Goliaths are pretty cool too. A level 6 Goliath, Bear Totem Barbarian can lift over a ton!

[M Placeholder]

So play a monk or barbarian who greatly benefit from increased mobility, or any full caster or a rogue who would absolutely love to be able to keep themselves out of reach of melee attackers.

Really it only limits you in terms of str-based, melee attackers other than barbarian. So fighter, paladin and some clerics.

There is also the issue of enclosed spaces, so a campaign with a lot of dungeon delving and adventure in cities will not be very friendly to an Aarakocra.

For the rest of the book, its got some good spells, and the thunderclap cantrip looks nice, cannot wait to test that out:smallsmile:

[Finieous]

A bunch of cool new spells my tempest cleric can't cast! Awesome. :smallfrown:

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

A bunch of cool new spells my tempest cleric can't cast! Awesome. :smallfrown:

Huh, I didn't notice that in my first skim-through. Not a single Cleric or Paladin spell. Few bard spells. Tons of Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard spells.

[silveralen]

I'm enjoying the fact dark sun got a shout out in the gensai section. It bodes well when they remember to mention background details like that for other settings.

In a more critical review, the races aren't too bad. Not really sure why water/fire gensai seem to have such a leg up on earth/air, but it isn't the worst thing ever. Goliaths could have had more as well, at least counting as large for say the purposes of tripping/shoving people. Still, not awful.

Spells.... the thing this supplement actually could have used in the way of spells is somewhat lacking. Mainly, ways for dragon sorcerers to be effective without going fire. You have a little bit here and there, so now cold and lightning are decent enough choices, but still though it could do more. Some of the others seemed meh, and I dislike the fact it looks like they used spells as an easy page filler.

The complete lack of archetypes has somewhat surprised me. I enjoy the current class selection, but I hope they don't plan to completely ignore additional material of this variety.


Huh, I didn't notice that in my first skim-through. Not a single Cleric or Paladin spell. Few bard spells. Tons of Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard spells.

At least ranger got adsorb elements. Rather wish paladin could get it as well, but I guess ranger+EK fighter is enough for the gishes.

[DireSickFish]

Urgh can't download at work. Can someone go over what the Genesai and Goliaths get? Or talk about why they like/dislike them?

[obryn]

Urgh can't download at work. Can someone go over what the Genesai and Goliaths get? Or talk about why they like/dislike them?
Goliaths get bonuses to Str and Con, and can resist some damage as a reaction. They are proficient in Athletics and carry more stuff.

Genasi get a bonus to Con and a floater based on subrace. Subraces get to cast a spell 1/day along with some flavor stuff. Fire seems top of the heap, with added Darkvision and extra spellcasting.

[Bubzors]

Disclaimer: For safe utilization of elemental magic, remember the following guidelines. You can drink water but not fire. You can breathe air but not earth. You can walk on earth but not on water (unless you have the right pair of boots or spell). You can do a lot of things with fire, but almost all of them are bad ideas.

Ha. God I love the disclaimers in the beginning.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Urgh can't download at work. Can someone go over what the Genesai and Goliaths get? Or talk about why they like/dislike them?

Genasi:
Air: +Dex, don't need to breath, cast levitate 1/day
Earth: +Str, no difficult terrain on earth/stone, cast pass without a trace 1/day
Fire: +Int, darkvision, fire resist, cast produce flame and burning hands (at lvl 3) 1/day
Water: +Wis, acid resistance, waterbreathing, 30' swim speed, cast shape water (new spell) and create/destroy water (lvl 3) 1/day

Fire and Water get extra bits, and are set up to be casters. I guess the rational is Fire gets nice bonuses, but a not nice bonus stat, unless you're going wizard.

[pwykersotz]

I'm thinking of letting Agnazzar's Scorcher be doable by any caster who finds a red dragon scale and expends a second level slot. Makes them a bit more special.

[Yorrin]

Aarakocra are definitely the new go-to Dex race for many classes. Goliath is a pretty decent bruiser, and Fire/Water Genasi seem pretty nice for a handful of builds. The rest are all just... okay.

Melf’s Minute Meteors seems to me to be the star spell of this release. Bonus action damage ftw. And I'm always a fan of new cantrips, which we get plenty of.

[Giant2005]

Aarakocra are definitely the new go-to Dex race for many classes. Goliath is a pretty decent bruiser, and Fire/Water Genasi seem pretty nice for a handful of builds. The rest are all just... okay.

Melf’s Minute Meteors seems to me to be the star spell of this release. Bonus action damage ftw. And I'm always a fan of new cantrips, which we get plenty of.

I don't think the Akaroa are all that great really. Other than the Flight, the race provides nothing. You really have to be planning on exploiting the hell out of that Flight to make it worthwhile, otherwise you are just a weaker version of everything else. I would have preferred them to have had the race offer a little more and make all ranged attacks from flight strike with disadvantage (Which really should be the case anyway - I know I'd rule it that way if anyone did so - physics and all that).
As for Melf's Minute Meteors, they just seem to be a more limited version of Flaming Sphere which is kind of strange considering Flaming Sphere is a level lower.
The spell which I think is the star is Absorb Elements. It is powerful both offensively and defensively, casts as a reaction, has an effect that couldn't be achieved with PHB spells, and uses a low level spell slot. It is perfect.

[DireSickFish]

Here's the WoTC link for those that don't want to download from other sites: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/elemental-evil-player%E2%80%99s-companion

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

As for Melf's Minute Meteors, they just seem to be a more limited version of Flaming Sphere which is kind of strange considering Flaming Sphere is a level lower.

Melf's Meteors has a lot of advantages over flaming sphere. Flaming sphere's range is 30 feet per turn, and can ram only one creature. Yes, you can place it among many creatures, but if those creatures move away before the end of their turn they don't take any damage.

Melf's Meteors on the other hand has a 120 foot range, and can be fired off twice a turn, and each shot explodes, hitting everything within 5' of the point of impact. It is however limited to being shot 6 times total.

Flaming sphere can output more damage, if it lasts a full 10 rounds, hitting 1 target every round. But Melf's can do it's full effect in 3 rounds, and will hit 6 targets minimum.

[DireSickFish]

The spell which I think is the star is Absorb Elements. It is powerful both offensively and defensively, casts as a reaction, has an effect that couldn't be achieved with PHB spells, and uses a low level spell slot. It is perfect.

Absorb elements is nice because its resistance on a reaction to every element but the damage it deals is often not going to be very effective. Things with fire attacks tend to resist or be immune to fire ect. It also can't absorb poison damage unfortunately.

Also: Why the heck don't Sorcerers get Elemental Bane? It seems perfect for the pidgin hole they are putting Sorcerers into as blasters.

[pwykersotz]

I think Skywrite is a pretty big star. It's a PC spell through and through.

"Mordenkainen is an idiot"
"No u Agnazzar"
"Great comeback, 11 Int fake Wizard"
"Your mother likes my comebacks"
*clouds form a picture*
"Seriously Agnazzar? A phallic symbol? That's real mature."
"Hahaha, mature enough for your grandma."
All skywritten over a kingdom. :smallsigh:

Years later:
"But mom, I don't want to join the kings guard and take the mageslayer feat. Why do we have to?"
"Well dear, let me tell you about skywriting..."

[Gritmonger]

Transmute Rock - rock to mud or mud to rock - but this troubles me:

Nonmagical rock of any
sort in the area becomes an equal volume of thick and
flowing mud that remains for the spell’s duration.
...but the duration is listed as "instantaneous" - which means...what?

Is the effect only there for the instant of casting, in which case any movement or immobilization discussed is purely hypothetical?
Is the effect permanent, and you've permanently modified the terrain?

Erupting Earth:

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a
spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by
1d12 for each slot level above 2nd.
...except that it's a 3rd level spell to start with, so casting at the level at which you can cast it means it actually does 4d12 bludgeoning...and can never do 3d12 bludgeoning...

[Dralnu]

I'm cautious about the Arakocra race but I'd allow them to see how they work out in playtests. The other races look sweet.

I like a lot of the new spells.

It's a little disappointing that there's no new spells for Clerics / Paladins and few for Bard.

Also the Fire element has more than enough support through spells. It would be nice to see more love for other elements such as lightning. Or better yet, introduce a feat that lets you substitute elemental damage, so you can make Fireball into Lightningball. It would solve all problems.

[pwykersotz]

Also the Fire element has more than enough support through spells. It would be nice to see more love for other elements such as lightning. Or better yet, introduce a feat that lets you substitute elemental damage, so you can make Fireball into Lightningball. It would solve all problems.

I'd rather it not be a feat, rather a variant. If it was a feat that would be a tax that I'm not a fan of, just to play your archetype.

[obryn]

Transmute Rock - rock to mud or mud to rock - but this troubles me:

...but the duration is listed as "instantaneous" - which means...what?

Is the effect only there for the instant of casting, in which case any movement or immobilization discussed is purely hypothetical?
Is the effect permanent, and you've permanently modified the terrain?
If it's Permanent, it can be dispelled. Instantaneous means it works and it's that way forever.

I will just say that I am both completely unsurprised yet nevertheless disappointed that the "Player's Guide" amounts to "more stuff for wizards". :smallbiggrin:

[aceynn88]

Absorb elements is nice because its resistance on a reaction to every element but the damage it deals is often not going to be very effective. Things with fire attacks tend to resist or be immune to fire ect. It also can't absorb poison damage unfortunately.

As someone playing a melee ranger, this spell is amazing. It scales with every spell level, and doesn't expire if you whiff an attack. Being able to use a 3rd level slot to half damage from a spell is amazing, and then I can deal an extra 3d6 of that element on my next attack. You're right that it will sometimes not be as great because of resistance, however a the cost is only one reaction, and was something that rangers did not have access to.

It's a fantastic defensive spell that has a scaling offensive property. Will be a bread an butter spell in some encounters.

[pwykersotz]

Here's the WoTC link for those that don't want to download from other sites: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/elemental-evil-player%E2%80%99s-companion

It's worth noting that this one allows copy/paste, the others that I got did not.

[DireSickFish]

A lot of the elemental spells seem to do physical damage, which i find surprising. I don't think it's bad, don't want fireball for every element and its a nice way to add versatility. Does physical resistance always apply to weapons for monsters so the damage from spells will go through?

A lot of the earth elemental spells create or leave behind difficult terrain which makes the earth genasi feature a lot more valuable as you can control the terrain by making more of it with spells. I agree that earth and air are a bit weaker than water and fire but I really -really- like the fact that Air genasi don't need to breath. I could see some setup with spells that I'd normally avoid because the AoE of a poison gas, makes them immune to Cloudkill as long as they hold there breath right?

[pwykersotz]

Totally unimportant complaint here...why for the love of Mystra are the spells out of alphabetical order? Ice Knife before Earth Tremor, Create Bonfire before Control Flames...agh!

Now back to your regularly scheduled forums. :smallsmile:

[charlesk]

Agreed on the weird distribution of spells across classes. But am I the only one who finds most of them rather underwhelming? Most are not bad, but neither especially awesome.

I suppose one could argue that this is evidence of correct balancing. :)

[Galen]

Agreed on the weird distribution of spells across classes. But am I the only one who finds most of them rather underwhelming? Most are not bad, but neither especially awesome.

I suppose one could argue that this is evidence of correct balancing. :)
The 8th level spell Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting deals slightly less damage than a Fireball cast from an 8th level slot. Of course, a lot of creatures are immune to or resist fire, but A-DHW grants two creature types flat immunity.

[Rallicus]

So... what purpose does create bonfire serve? It only lasts a minute with concentration.

My only guess is that it can create a bonfire in conditions that would otherwise be impossible, maybe? I don't know.

Even the caster in the picture has this expression like, "Why am I doing this? This fire'll be snuffed in a minute, and I'm just standing here like a freaking dolt."

EDIT: I realize it has combat utility but the name implies... you know... making a bonfire, not a five foot square of flame to hurt enemies with.

[Forrestfire]

Well, it's a cantrip, so as long as you maintain it every minute, it will last as long as you like. I'd imagine it'll also set fire to actual logs you put in.

[Dralnu]

Agreed on the weird distribution of spells across classes. But am I the only one who finds most of them rather underwhelming? Most are not bad, but neither especially awesome.

I get the same feeling, but some of them feel great in certain situations.

Absorb Elements feels unique and gives melee like Eldritch Knights a way to be tankier against spell damage.

Beast Bond is a buff to Beastmasters, which is welcome.

Catapult is another one of those enablers for sweet character concepts. I can imagine a spellcaster chucking vials of acid or better with this.

Dust Devil seems straight-up powerful to me etc.


I suppose one could argue that this is evidence of correct balancing. :)

This! My biggest fear is power creep. I'm happy to see the first supplement doesn't have this problem, at least at first glance. It's a good sign for the future.




Also question about Melf's Minute Meteors:


Each creature within 5 feet of the point where the meteor explodes must make a Dexterity saving throw.

Why do they say this instead of describing it as a radius like they do with Fireball? Wouldn't this be a 10 ft. radius sphere?

[Chronos]

"Within five feet" is a radius.

[pwykersotz]

Another minor flaw:


Erupting Earth
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S, M (a piece of obsidian)
Duration: Instantaneous
Choose a point you can see on the ground within range. A fountain of churned earth and stone erupts in a 20-foot cube centered on that point. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 3d12 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Additionally, the ground in that area becomes difficult terrain until cleared away. Each 5-foot-square portion of the area requires at least 1 minute to clear by hand.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 2nd.

I choose to cast it as a 3rd level spell, and increase my damage by 1d12 to 4d12 total!

[CrusaderJoe]

:smallsigh:

My first thought exactly.

Now is there a reason why we can't have more Athletics/Acrobatic based maneuvers? Doesn't magic have enough? WHy must magic be such a glutton?

I wonder if 6e won't have any non-caster base classes at all.

[Ghost Nappa]

Maybe now when I start shouting "C-CAW C-CAW" at my teammates because they didn't hear my earlier bird calls, they won't stare at me like I'm a chicken without a head.

[ChubbyRain]

Maybe now when I start shouting "C-CAW C-CAW" at my teammates because they didn't hear my earlier bird calls, they won't stare at me like I'm a chicken without a head.

I'm sure an undead Aarakocra could be made without a head...

Or I'm sure there is an illusion spell that works for that...

They should have added a trait, if the Aarakocra is decapitated (vorpal weapon or other) then their body runs around for 1d4+1 minutes in random directions.

[SharkForce]

i find it interesting that people would complain that there are few bard spells.

you couldn't be more wrong. they are *all* bard spells (or at least, the best ones are at any rate). if any of them are more worthwhile than current options, you just take those. if they aren't more worthwhile than current options, who cares if you get them or not?

[obryn]

Now all my skelly bros are shooting flaming arrows at earthbound targets.

[SharkForce]

Now all my skelly bros are shooting flaming arrows at earthbound targets.

that's fairly surprising considering both are concentration...

(besides, the real fun with minions is magic stone, which lets others use your casting modifier as their attack attribute, and being a ranged spell attack probably always applies their proficiency bonus whether they are proficient with a sling or not. also, being a spell attack, it is therefore not a nonmagical weapon, or indeed any sort of weapon at all).

[Dralnu]

"Within five feet" is a radius.

I mean, Fireball specifically says "20 ft. radius sphere" as its area. Why don't they keep the wording consistent instead of "within five feet"? That makes me wonder if it covers 3x3 squares (within 5ft of the originating square?) or 2x2 (you put it in the corner).

[ChubbyRain]

I mean, Fireball specifically says "20 ft. radius sphere" as its area. Why don't they keep the wording consistent instead of "within five feet"? That makes me wonder if it covers 3x3 squares (within 5ft of the originating square?) or 2x2 (you put it in the corner).

There is no grid by base rules, so it is within 5'. These squares you speak of, I know not what they are!

Basically lay out your stuff on a table and use a ruler (I prefer a small stick with notches/sharpie lines) and measure 5' from the center point.

I haven't used a grid since 2e, my 3e/4e/5e games have never really used them when I run a game.

[Malifice]

Also the Fire element has more than enough support through spells. It would be nice to see more love for other elements such as lightning. Or better yet, introduce a feat that lets you substitute elemental damage, so you can make Fireball into Lightningball. It would solve all problems.

Have my homebrewed feat that does just that.

Elemental affinity


You learn the firebolt cantrip and can cast it at will.
When you gain this feat, choose one of the following damage types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. Any spell or class feature you use that would ordinarily deal any of any of these damage types now deals damage of the type you chose when you gained this feat.
In addition, you gain resistance to your chosen damage type.


For all you Elsa wannabe's out there.

Let it go.

[Falling Icicle]

The 8th level spell Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting deals slightly less damage than a Fireball cast from an 8th level slot. Of course, a lot of creatures are immune to or resist fire, but A-DHW grants two creature types flat immunity.

A better comparison can be made between Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and sunburst, since they are both 8th level spells. ADHW deals 10d8 (avg. 45) damage. Sunburst deals 12d6 (avg. 42) damage, which is slightly less, but it's radiant, which very few creatures are resistant or immune to. Sunburst affects undead and constructs (ADHW does not), it affects a 60 ft. radius sphere (so it's area of effect is several times larger than Horrid Wilting) and it also blinds creatures. Sunburst puts Horrid Wilting to shame.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

ADHW is a con save rather than a dex save like many AOE spells.

aside from targeting a different save, that also means that enemies in cover don't get advantage against it

[rollingForInit]

I love that we finally have Genasi.

The only thing I think is missing is that the Earth and Air Genasi don't get any cantrips, when the features they do have aren't really much more powerful than Fire/Water. Personally, I'd give Gust to Air Genasi, and Mold Earth to Earth Genasi. That'd put them more on par with Fire/Water. And possibly allow players to choose between Control Flames and Conjure Flame for Fire genasi.

More fluff is better. Air Genasi even have the fluff text about being accompanied by minor gusts of air all the time.

[Gwendol]

Good call on cantrips for all genasi. The 5e Powerful Build feature feels underwhelming. Being considered a size larger in all occasions it would be an advantage for the goliath is not overpowering, and is a nice and defining trait. Right now they feel more of a somewhat weaker orc.
I would have liked to see some elemental-themed equipment (and not only spells), and a more even distribution of spells, but on the whole the playable races are all a welcome addition.

[Chronos]

A couple more points: First, someone said that they were glad to see that this supplement didn't have powercreep in it, but supplements like this are exactly how powercreep happens. It introduces some new stuff, some of which is a little worse than what came before, and some of which is a little better than what came before. Overall, it's at about the same power level as core, so it looks balanced. Except that's not the way it's actually going to work out: The things that are underpowered, nobody's ever going to take, so they're irrelevant. The things that are more powerful, everyone's going to take, so everyone (or at least, everyone with access to this material) will get a little bit more powerful. Repeat with every new supplement, and eventually you start noticing that everything's a lot more powerful than it used to be.

Second, this confirms something I was worried about as soon as I saw 5th edition: In what directions can it expand? You can always introduce new spells, but there's not nearly as much you can give to mundanes. In 3rd edition, you could at least hope for new prestige classes and feats, but in this edition there are no prestige classes, and feats are somewhere between rare and nonexistent. But spells? Yeah, we're getting plenty of those, and so the already overpowered casters just get even more overpowered.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

There is actually one feat in the supplement. The Deep Gnomes have racial spellcasting that they have to expend a feat to learn.

I sympathize with your concerns, but Elemental Evil was pretty much always going to be magic, magic, magic, magic.

Though I am surprised there were no subclass expansions, honestly.

[cobaltstarfire]

Second, this confirms something I was worried about as soon as I saw 5th edition: In what directions can it expand? You can always introduce new spells, but there's not nearly as much you can give to mundanes. In 3rd edition, you could at least hope for new prestige classes and feats, but in this edition there are no prestige classes, and feats are somewhere between rare and nonexistent. But spells? Yeah, we're getting plenty of those, and so the already overpowered casters just get even more overpowered.


It can give the "mundanes" more archetypes, combat oriented races, and in the cases where they can choose from a list of abilities (like battle master) more things to choose from.

I think/hope that the main reason this particular expansion is mostly spells is because more spells fits into the theme of dealing with elements and stuff. With any luck the next expansion will focus more on the martial character.

[Dralnu]

I agree, more options always means more power. I accept that. If it's a decision between power creep or more options, I'll choose more options.

The sticking point is the rate of power creep. If design is aware of it and trying their best to avoid it then hopefully it happens at a slower rate. That's all I wish for.

What really excites me are new options that don't buff the best options, but rather are niche options that help neglected archetypes or offer make new ones viable.

Beast Bond is a buff to Beastmasters, but the subclass could use buffs anyway, so I approve of that power creep.

Then there's spells like Catapult that stir my imagination in wonderful ways. I'd love to play a caster that hurls dangerous objects at opponents, and this would be a key spell to make such a character viable crunch-wise.

[Demonic Spoon]

A couple more points: First, someone said that they were glad to see that this supplement didn't have powercreep in it, but supplements like this are exactly how powercreep happens. It introduces some new stuff, some of which is a little worse than what came before, and some of which is a little better than what came before. Overall, it's at about the same power level as core, so it looks balanced. Except that's not the way it's actually going to work out: The things that are underpowered, nobody's ever going to take, so they're irrelevant. The things that are more powerful, everyone's going to take, so everyone (or at least, everyone with access to this material) will get a little bit more powerful. Repeat with every new supplement, and eventually you start noticing that everything's a lot more powerful than it used to be.


I haven't found anything in the PHB or the EE that is bad enough that no one would ever take it (with a couple exceptions, mostly nonfunctional rules like Grappler).

Power creep happened in 3.x because splatbooks specifically created new mechanics with the intention of changing balance, and feat choices that were actually designed to increase the power of certain kinds of characters (in addition to being terribly balanced). Also, 3.5 balance was arguably at its worst in Core, and WotC clearly tried to fix that in splats, which means that they were intentionally engaging in power creep.

Finally, the intention isn't that every option from every supplement is available in every campaign. The last sentence of the first paragraph in the EE supplement even says that these are character creation options if they're allowed. Several other parts of the supplement also offer similar disclaimers - for example, the druid spells list has a disclaimer that the DM will probably at most give access to a small subset of the new spells, and that you probably don't have full access to everything.

[ChubbyRain]

It can give the "mundanes" more archetypes, combat oriented races, and in the cases where they can choose from a list of abilities (like battle master) more things to choose from.

I think/hope that the main reason this particular expansion is mostly spells is because more spells fits into the theme of dealing with elements and stuff. With any luck the next expansion will focus more on the martial character.

Races are not an option for martials, they are an option for every class. Goliath Sorcerer, Warlock, or Cleric all seems fun.

The core noncaster archetypes for most martials (Beserker, Battle Master, Champion, Assassin) suck already, so any new option will be "balanced" with the already suck of the core options. So anything new will either be perceived as over powered or will suck just as much.

Wooo, totally looking forward to this! :smallsigh:

[Gwendol]

The core noncaster archetypes for most martials (Beserker, Battle Master, Champion, Assassin) suck already, so any new option will be "balanced" with the already suck of the core options.

Eh, those classes work fine even if not all of them are that exciting. They most certainly do not "suck"! Throwing in a firebrand like that in a mostly unrelated thread is begging for a fight.

[Elderand]

Eh, those classes work fine even if not all of them are that exciting. They most certainly do not "suck"! Throwing in a firebrand like that in a mostly unrelated thread is begging for a fight.

You and your common sense again ! :P

[cobaltstarfire]

Races are not an option for martials, they are an option for every class. Goliath Sorcerer, Warlock, or Cleric all seems fun.



Well of course that's a given, but races that are more geared specifically to empowering the martials was what I had in mind.

[Gwendol]

You and your common sense again ! :P

I might have to sig that...

[ChubbyRain]

Well of course that's a given, but races that are more geared specifically to empowering the martials was what I had in mind.

That's the thing though, they actually help casters just as much or more so when you do that.

Goliath's ability to shrug off damage 1/rest is fantastic on low HD casters.

Flying starting at level 1 seems like a boost to martials, though mostly rogue/barbarians, but a caster with flight is even more dangerous... Especially since it replaces a 3rd level concentration spell. Bows are a lot more useful now days but a decent AC (which is easily done without medium/heavy armor) or defensive spells (greater invisibility or blurr or whatever) can stop a lot of the damage. At least when they are on the ground they are somewhat trackable. Greater invisibility + Flight + long distance attack spells/save spells... Yay! We are back to 3.5!

Tl;dr: Powerful races geared toward martials increases everyone's power and not just martials.

[SharkForce]

Finally, the intention isn't that every option from every supplement is available in every campaign. The last sentence of the first paragraph in the EE supplement even says that these are character creation options if they're allowed. Several other parts of the supplement also offer similar disclaimers - for example, the druid spells list has a disclaimer that the DM will probably at most give access to a small subset of the new spells, and that you probably don't have full access to everything.

sure, it says that. and what rules are there for adventurer's league? because last i checked it's "yeah, go ahead and grab any spell you want, we're placing exactly 0 limits on it".

some DMs limit you in this sort of thing. most won't.

(and on a side note, can't remember the spell, but it makes 6 pillars of earth... it's probably good enough to slightly increase power levels. in the right situation it inflicts up to 9d6 damage (6d6 initial, then up to 3d6 more when they fall) and restrains the target with no concentration required. considering how precious that concentration slot is, i'm kinda expecting to hear more about that spell in the future.

[cobaltstarfire]

Tl;dr: Powerful races geared toward martials increases everyone's power and not just martials.

And this is bad why?

[silveralen]

I mean.... Name something for classes that'd be elemental themed that more or less ignores magic.

I can think of barbarian elemental rages from PF/4e and... Not much else.

The theme of the supplement is why we didn't see anything mundane (even my example might not qualify.)

So I wouldn't make assumptions about all future supplements off this one.

[Elderand]

I mean.... Name something for classes that'd be elemental themed that more or less ignores magic.

I can think of barbarian elemental rages from PF/4e and... Not much else.

The theme of the supplement is why we didn't see anything mundane (even my example might not qualify.)

So I wouldn't make assumptions about all future supplements off this one.

I would have hoped for something for monks of the way of the 4 elements though, that's right up their alley.

[Daishain]

A lot of the elemental spells seem to do physical damage, which i find surprising. I don't think it's bad, don't want fireball for every element and its a nice way to add versatility. Does physical resistance always apply to weapons for monsters so the damage from spells will go through?
The resistances in question typically specify "from nonmagical weapons". Even if you call the spell effect a weapon, it is clearly magical.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Expanding existing subclasses is a poor idea. Having to reference 2 places for what should be self contained rules would be very awkward.

[Broken Twin]

First off: Genasi! Woohoo!

Secondly: No class archetypes? I was at least hoping for racial class archetypes (which seems like a gold mine for content). All in all, not overly disappointed by this.

Finally: ... And most of the supplement is composed of new spells. Yippee. Ten new spells would have been fine. This is excessive.

[Demonic Spoon]

sure, it says that. and what rules are there for adventurer's league? because last i checked it's "yeah, go ahead and grab any spell you want, we're placing exactly 0 limits on it".

some DMs limit you in this sort of thing. most won't.

(and on a side note, can't remember the spell, but it makes 6 pillars of earth... it's probably good enough to slightly increase power levels. in the right situation it inflicts up to 9d6 damage (6d6 initial, then up to 3d6 more when they fall) and restrains the target with no concentration required. considering how precious that concentration slot is, i'm kinda expecting to hear more about that spell in the future.
AL allows you to use anything from that supplement because the current AL season is elemental evil. My guess is that all of those options will disappear as soon as the next season and next supplement starts.

If DMs don't limit at all what supplements can be used, then that's their own problem and their own fault. You cannot simultaneously argue that more and more supplements are bad and that no DMs are ever going to limit them. If supplement bloat is bad (and I agree it is), then smart DMs will limit their usage. Furthermore, the design intention is extremely clear - every supplement has little "by the way, your DM has to approve this" warnings plastered everywhere.


Finally: ... And most of the supplement is composed of new spells. Yippee. Ten new spells would have been fine. This is excessive.


It's a supplement for an adventure centered on elemental evil. Of course the meat of the supplement is going to be about elemental magic.

[ChubbyRain]

And this is bad why?

1: Powercreep (in some ways is bad)
2: It doesn't actually help martials like the intended purpose. You are gearing a race toward martials but in fact helping casters more so than martials. Failing at your intended goal is bad.
3: Read number 2 again.
4: By doing this you only help push the process of "casters get nice things". Mundane flight + greater invisibility + stealth skill is way more powerful than Mundane Flight + stealth. And before you say "rogue has expertise", well so does the Bard (full freaking caster).

[togapika]

Any of the new races particularly good for an Arcane Trickster?

[Spacehamster]

Just me that think they should have put in Avariel elves instead of those weird birdmen?

[Gwendol]

I think it has to do with the Elemental theme, more than creatures with flight.

[ChubbyRain]

Just me that think they should have put in Avariel elves instead of those weird birdmen?

No. We don't need anymore freaky elves, I rather they expand on other ideas instead of just "hey elves!". This is 2015 we can push the creative juices to expand on fantasy a bit more than defaulting to elves.

Also, why would you want to pass up the opportunity to use Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law quotes in your game?

http://hkgames.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/harvey-birdman-attorney-at-law.jpg

Steven Colbert voices Harvey Birdman

[Broken Twin]

It's a supplement for an adventure centered on elemental evil. Of course the meat of the supplement is going to be about elemental magic.

There's so many other ways you can handle elemental magic other than new spells though. Backgrounds, class archetypes, items, racial variants, optional rules... new spells just seems lazy.

Edit: I'm not saying there should have been no spells in the supplement. I just think the amount given is a bit much.

[Spacehamster]

No. We don't need anymore freaky elves, I rather they expand on other ideas instead of just "hey elves!". This is 2015 we can push the creative juices to expand on fantasy a bit more than defaulting to elves.

Also, why would you want to pass up the opportunity to use Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law quotes in your game?

http://hkgames.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/harvey-birdman-attorney-at-law.jpg

Steven Colbert voices Harvey Birdman

Haha I hate birds, they are nasty and poop at your car. :P And also prefer something bit more human looking things as player races. :)

[Demonic Spoon]

There's so many other ways you can handle elemental magic other than new spells though. Backgrounds, class archetypes, items, racial variants, optional rules... new spells just seems lazy.

Backgrounds? How are you going to create a new elemental-themed background that isn't awkward and forced aside from elemental races like Genasi?

Class archetypes: We have plenty of class archetypes that already use elemental magic extensively, and some that focus on it (dragon sorcerer, evocation wizard...)

Elemental items would not be in the player supplement.

We already have new races.

Unless you have specific optional rules in mind that would make the game thematically represent elemental evil, I'm not sure what you want here.

[ChubbyRain]

There's so many other ways you can handle elemental magic other than new spells though. Backgrounds, class archetypes, items, racial variants, optional rules... new spells just seems lazy.

A lot of 5e feels lazy, but at least they are spreading the lazy all around.

Backgrounds would have been nice, elemental magic alternate racial options would have been nice, and sub classes would have been nice...

However this would mean that noncasters would get nice things too, and we can't have that! *smh*. Nope cause then D&D wouldn't be D&D. :smallsigh:

[Yorrin]

Any of the new races particularly good for an Arcane Trickster?

Deep Gnome and Fire Genasi are both strong candidates. Air Genasi is alright as well for that role.


Actually, now that I look at it, Air Genasi is "alright" for every class in the game. It's a lackluster race overall, but it's not actually BAD at anything, except when compared to Humans.

[cobaltstarfire]

Ok first of all I wasn't talking about the races in EE. You can't say for a fact that all future races will always help casters more than martials.

Second of all, I don't care if something happens to help both types of classes, because I enjoy playing both types, and would enjoy more toys for all of them.

And finally, martial focused races was not the only thing I listed, I also mentioned giving new martial class archetypes, and new abilities to choose from.

Some one else mentioned adding more martial type feats as well. There are plenty of things that can be added to the game for martials, and as I originally said I'm assuming that will come in future expansion that isn't focused on Elemental (magical) things.

[ChubbyRain]

Haha I hate birds, they are nasty and poop at your car. :P And also prefer something bit more human looking things as player races. :)

See, I just think elves are so over used. We also need to expand our fantasy game to include more non-human looking player races. It gets quite stale after a while when all you have are human but not quite human races running around. Hell in 4e female dragonborn had breasts.

Quite honestly I would rather see a race of flying spaghetti monster people as a core race than another human but not quite human race (like elves, half orcs, dwarves, and whatever else). Well, if we go by the original idea of elves I can get behind that stuff, but Tolkien elves need to go. Maybe the death of all the elven patheon could be a good plot that explains why elves are their pre-tolkien selves...

I do like the look of deep gnomes though. Very nice.


Edit: There seems to be a misconception that just because this is about Elemental Evil everything must be magic based... This is wrong. You can easily insert nonmagical effects into this. Warning the following is a spitball idea I did in like 2 minutes (mostly due to grammar errors lol).

Earthly Athletics: You are in tune with the earth and have learned to use it as a weapon against your enemies.

When a Fighter or Barbarian of 5th level Shoves a creature prone they tear up the ground or floor where the target lands. That area is difficult terrain. Moving out of it costs double your crawl speed. Standing up in this area takes all but 5' of movement unless you have the mobility feat then it takes 1/2 your moment for your turn.

[DireSickFish]

Deep Gnome and Fire Genasi are both strong candidates. Air Genasi is alright as well for that role.


Actually, now that I look at it, Air Genasi is "alright" for every class in the game. It's a lackluster race overall, but it's not actually BAD at anything, except when compared to Humans.

Unless you need to reach something on the top of the bookshelf or are being smothered to death with a pillow.

I was surprised they went with +2con for Genasi but it really is a universal stat that anyone can use more of so it makes them all very versitile.

[Broken Twin]

Backgrounds? How are you going to create a new elemental-themed background that isn't awkward and forced aside from elemental races like Genasi?

Seriously?

"You were previously a member of <Elemental Evil> Cult. This gives you insight into their workings."

"Your parents/ancestors made a bargain with a powerful being from the elemental planes in the past. Because of this mark upon your bloodline, you find it easier to communicate with elemental beings."

"For whatever reason, you've spent an extended part of your past surviving on an elemental plane. You've adapted to cope with the extreme conditions of that environment."

"As a child, you discovered an elemental artifact/planar breech/what-have-you. Exposure to its energies has given you an insight into elemental magic."

I can whip up mechanics for them too, if you'd like.


Class archetypes: We have plenty of class archetypes that already use elemental magic extensively, and some that focus on it (dragon sorcerer, evocation wizard...)

There's so much more to magic than spells. Hell, off the top of my head:

Elemental Tempest [Barbarian]: You draw upon the raw magic of the elemental planes when you rage. Damaging aura, weapons wreathed in energy, what have you. Maybe you can speak only in Primordial when you rage.

I don't mind that there are new spells. I mind that there's so many of them, and that there's nothing there for the default races who aren't spell casters.

But, it doesn't really matter. My group will take what we want from it, other groups will take what they want. Everybody's getting something out of this, so it's a win all around.

[Madfellow]

Just me that think they should have put in Avariel elves instead of those weird birdmen?

When I saw the cover art for Princes of the Apocalypse, with that winged elf chick, I got my hopes up for it.

[Demonic Spoon]

1 "You were previously a member of <Elemental Evil> Cult. This gives you insight into their workings."

2 "Your parents/ancestors made a bargain with a powerful being from the elemental planes in the past. Because of this mark upon your bloodline, you find it easier to communicate with elemental beings."

3 "For whatever reason, you've spent an extended part of your past surviving on an elemental plane. You've adapted to cope with the extreme conditions of that environment."

4 "As a child, you discovered an elemental artifact/planar breech/what-have-you. Exposure to its energies has given you an insight into elemental magic."

I can whip up mechanics for them too, if you'd like.

numbered for easy response:

1. Yeah, that's just Acolyte

2. This sounds more like a racial variant or template than a background. What would it even give, aside from an elemental language?

3. This sounds like Outlander (maybe with a slightly different variant feature per plane?)

4. this is an event that happened in your past, not a background. This does not leave room for bonds, flaws, personality traits, skill proficiencies, etc.


There's so much more to magic than spells. Hell, off the top of my head:

Elemental Tempest [Barbarian]: You draw upon the raw magic of the elemental planes when you rage. Damaging aura, weapons wreathed in energy, what have you. Maybe you can speak only in Primordial when you rage.

I don't mind that there are new spells. I mind that there's so many of them, and that there's nothing there for the default races who aren't spell casters.

But, it doesn't really matter. My group will take what we want from it, other groups will take what they want. Everybody's getting something out of this, so it's a win all around.


That's actually fairly interesting. I dunno - I suppose some stuff like that would've been cool to see.

[Chronos]

Deep Gnomes are disappointing to me: They look like they're just Lesser Forest Gnomes. They lose out on a cantrip and the ability to talk to animals (both of which are quite useful), and in return get nothing but longer range on their darkvision and a situational bonus to stealth. Oh, and if you're using feats, they have the opportunity to take a feat that's slightly better than most of the core feats.

I also thought that the distribution of the races was a bit odd. We've got one race with a subtype for each of the elements: OK, that's fine. Then, we get an airy race, and two earthy races. Where are the watery or fiery races?

[SharkForce]

I'm not sure why you'd expect more non-caster stuff in future supplements. if you look at basically every single campaign setting that has been done, non-caster classes remain fairly close to identical across the board (dark sun is a slight exception in that the gladiator basically took over the fighter's job, and the fighter became more of a military leader... but still functions mostly the same apart from that. I suppose it did introduce a few new weapons at least), and caster classes often change significantly from setting to setting.

personally, I'm expecting to continue to see mostly new spells and toys for magic classes in the future, because everything has different systems for magic... but tends to keep the exact same basic combat system.

[Gwendol]

I agree that not adding options for an elemental monk, or elemental totem barbarian was an annoying oversight. I was hoping for some more player options than races and spells.

[Broken Twin]

@Demonic Spoon: I came up with them in the span of two minutes. You can't expect them all to be winners. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I just want everyone to have new toys to play with. I got my Genasi (favorite race), so I'm more than content. I do wish they had stuck with the Tron-line bodies they had in 4E (http://www.worldofazolin.com/wiki/images/c/c1/Fire_genasi3.jpg). I guess they don't really mesh well with the current low key art style though.

[Yorrin]

I also thought that the distribution of the races was a bit odd. We've got one race with a subtype for each of the elements: OK, that's fine. Then, we get an airy race, and two earthy races. Where are the watery or fiery races?

I noticed this as well. One can argue Tieflings are already fiery enough, but I would have liked to see Darfellan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfellan) or something similar for water.

[ChubbyRain]

I also thought that the distribution of the races was a bit odd. We've got one race with a subtype for each of the elements: OK, that's fine. Then, we get an airy race, and two earthy races. Where are the watery or fiery races?

Someone already said it but the PDF looks lazy. They could have put Azers in here, some sort of Gillmen, or maybe a Water Orc.

This whole PDF... Overall is a 2/5. It expanded on a piece of core that was already pretty expansive and gave us no new elemental options via backgrounds or subclasses. The only saving grace, which is where the 2 comes from, is that some spells are actually neat and some of the races are pretty cool (some Genesai and I like the Goliath but I'm partial to them from 3e/4e).

Overall I would rather pay for future splatbooks that combine their lore and stuff with mechanics (like 3e/4e splats) than continue to get this level of performance from wotc.

[Broken Twin]

They're probably saving a proper water-type race [ala mermaids] for the inevitable sea-world style setting.

[ChubbyRain]

They're probably saving a proper water-type race [ala mermaids] for the inevitable sea-world style setting.

And leave the elemental water games high and dry?

That seems like bad design.

On second thought maybe they are waiting for the Aquaman movie to come out? Get a bit of free hype for their water world?

[Yenek]

I also thought that the distribution of the races was a bit odd. We've got one race with a subtype for each of the elements: OK, that's fine. Then, we get an airy race, and two earthy races. Where are the watery or fiery races?

We get 1 1/2 airy races, 2 1/2 earthy races and 1/2 fiery/watery each. See: Genasi.

Sahuagin (or something) would've been nice, though. Tieflings are practically fiery already, and Dragonborn fit every element.

[pwykersotz]

Overall I would rather pay for future splatbooks that combine their lore and stuff with mechanics (like 3e/4e splats) than continue to get this level of performance from wotc.

I believe that's what is happening. This is just the free supplement, like has been released for every other book.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

remember that this supplement is for an actual adventure - it's not the elemental races splatbook. The races featured in the supplement probably feature in the adventures, which AFAICT feature battling super magical bad dudes on the prime material plane.

[Gritmonger]

remember that this supplement is for an actual adventure - it's not the elemental races splatbook. The races featured in the supplement probably feature in the adventures, which AFAICT feature battling super magical bad dudes on the prime material plane.

Right - I just wish they would release a formula or guidelines for balancing races in this edition - there has to be a formula somewhere, some way of trying to balance these, but darn if I can plot it out yet...

[ChubbyRain]

Right - I just wish they would release a formula or guidelines for balancing races in this edition - there has to be a formula somewhere, some way of trying to balance these, but darn if I can plot it out yet...

There is no formula, the DMG boils down to "eh, whatever you feel is right".

[Galen]

There's a very nice example of how to create a race and a subrace in the DMG (the Aasimar and Eladrin). Just follow the guidelines laid down and you'll be fine.

[mephnick]

Sweet, magical power creep already. Can't wait for more spells in the next release.

[Person_Man]

I'm a bit saddened by this.

I know its an adventure supplement and not a universal splat book, but many people will treat it as such.

I was enjoying the innocent time when the rules are first released and almost everyone is playing core (with some DMs mixing in homebrew). We have now entered the codex creep phase of the game.

In particular, its clear that spellcasters have gotten a range of new options to choose from in the form of new spells, whereas non-casters get nothing. (And oddly, no new Cleric spells?)

Due to the nature of non-caster class design, this trend will probably continue in other publication, which will probably bring back Tiers of classes in a couple of years.

Sigh.

This is not to say that I don't want additional 5E books. I was just hoping for a wide variety of adventure modules and campaign setting materials that did not introduce new player crunch for a year or so before the parade of splat began.

[Galen]

If 5e is to lose its innocence and end up as yet another 3.x clone, this supplement will go down in history as the point where is all began.

[eastmabl]

I'm a bit saddened by this.

I know its an adventure supplement and not a universal splat book, but many people will treat it as such.

I was enjoying the innocent time when the rules are first released and almost everyone is playing core (with some DMs mixing in homebrew). We have now entered the codex creep phase of the game.

In particular, its clear that spellcasters have gotten a range of new options to choose from in the form of new spells, whereas non-casters get nothing. (And oddly, no new Cleric spells?)

Due to the nature of non-caster class design, this trend will probably continue in other publication, which will probably bring back Tiers of classes in a couple of years.

Sigh.

This is not to say that I don't want additional 5E books. I was just hoping for a wide variety of adventure modules and campaign setting materials that did not introduce new player crunch for a year or so before the parade of splat began.

While I was really hoping for some all-around love for the mundy and caster classes, I wouldn't go so far as to say that some extra caster love is about to create tiers.

In 3.5, we had a different spell preparation system and far more access to quick and cheap scrolls. When a wizard got access to new spells, all he had to do was get them into his spell book. Then he could prepare the spell in one of his numerous spell slots under a true Vancian system - or he could scribe a scroll for basically peanuts.

In 5e, the magic system is greatly changed. True, a wizard need only get the spell into her spellbook to be able to prepare it - but she's not on the Wealth By Level treadmill anymore and must be more frugal with the 50 gp increments of gold she gets. Under the modified Vancian spellcasting, she can only prepare a far smaller list of spells per day than in previous editions. Additionally, both the cost of time and materials at scribing scrolls are far more onerous, meaning that scrolls are a huge investment.

Most of the spells seem to be interesting spells which are in line with other similar spells. With the above-noted restrictor plates on the magic system, I don't think getting access to some new spells will push the game into tiers.

[zhdarkstar]

Also, why would you want to pass up the opportunity to use Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law quotes in your game?

http://hkgames.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/harvey-birdman-attorney-at-law.jpg

Steven Colbert voices Harvey Birdman

Actually, Colbert was the voice of Phil Ken Sebbin (aka Falcon 7).

Harvey Birdman would be a Fey Tomelock 3/Lore Bard 17 with the Noble/Knight background, as a nod to Prof Layton vs Ace Attorney calling lawyers "knights of the court.” Use BoAS to get Find Familiar for Avenger, and have your retainers be Peanut, Potamus, and Inch-High P.I. for your support staff. Fey Presence is the perfect RP ability for an attorney.

[obryn]

Sweet, magical power creep already. Can't wait for more spells in the next release.
Yep. They are easy page-filler.

I have heard rumors that there's going to be something for non-casters next time around, but I am absolutely certain that won't stop the new spell steamroller. (And really, even if we get anything nice for non-casters, what's the chance that'll make it through the designers and 'fans' grumbling about it?)

[Yorrin]

With the above-noted restrictor plates on the magic system, I don't think getting access to some new spells will push the game into tiers.

Kinda. Spell bloat is still going to end up pushing casters up-tier, but the checks in place will make it take much longer and won't let the tiers be as disparate as 3.x tiers, assuming that the balance on spells is done as well as this supplement. Which is fine, honestly. And we're not seeing any signs of a junk-tier class either, which imo is even more important. Even the Ranger, who is largely disparaged around here, will be benefiting from new spell splats. So I'm not seeing any major red flags for this system based on this new material.

Now if only my Clerics could have gotten some lovin'...:smalltongue:

[pwykersotz]

Yep. They are easy page-filler.

I have heard rumors that there's going to be something for non-casters next time around, but I am absolutely certain that won't stop the new spell steamroller. (And really, even if we get anything nice for non-casters, what's the chance that'll make it through the designers and 'fans' grumbling about it?)

Yeah...it kinda blows. :smallsigh:

Don't get me wrong, I love spells, I do. Magic is the reason I play D&D. But all sorts of extra spells just gets...bloated.

I really wish I could find a magic system I could plug into D&D to replace spells. Something a little more freeform, because seriously, who wants to remember all these spells? Unfortunately, it's tough to do without leaving all sorts of holes in the system. I've been meaning to look at Elements of Magic and Elements of Magic Revised from 3.5 to see if they're compatible, but I haven't had the time.

[mephnick]

I can already tell I'm going to have to limit my campaigns to core, I was just hoping I'd get a few supplements in before I had to start yelling "CORE ONLY" at random people on the street.

[ChubbyRain]

Yeah...it kinda blows. :smallsigh:

Don't get me wrong, I love spells, I do. Magic is the reason I play D&D. But all sorts of extra spells just gets...bloated.

I really wish I could find a magic system I could plug into D&D to replace spells. Something a little more freeform, because seriously, who wants to remember all these spells? Unfortunately, it's tough to do without leaving all sorts of holes in the system. I've been meaning to look at Elements of Magic and Elements of Magic Revised from 3.5 to see if they're compatible, but I haven't had the time.


So it has been years mind you but... There was a fan made 3.5 Avatar the last Airbender TTRPG which had a pretty good bending system. It got a 4e update by some other people around the time 4e first came out but I haven't seen it since then.

I feel like that sort of freeform "magic" system would work wonders for 5e. The earth bending was especially fun as I recall... Though my friends and I did break the 3.5 game by dropping a Texas sized rock on someone... But then again the DM said go wild... Anyways if balanced out and fixed I think bending would work great.

A lot of D&D spells could be remade into bending abilities... Get some balanced numbers and stuff and all it a day.

Blood bending was fun too. It replaced a lot of the dominate and charm spells.

[Oscredwin]

Can the people talking about serious power creep actually point to which spells push the envelope of power? I understand the notion of "Wizards get a new 4th best spell at level 7 so now the best evoker spell list is a little better," and how if you iterate that over 2 years with a splat every 3 months wizards get a huge power bump (and it only takes one "Celerity" for a book to really push casters up). But for this to be power creep, there has to be specific things that are noticeable improvements over Core.

[mephnick]

Can the people talking about serious power creep actually point to which spells push the envelope of power? I understand the notion of "Wizards get a new 4th best spell at level 7 so now the best evoker spell list is a little better," and how if you iterate that over 2 years with a splat every 3 months wizards get a huge power bump (and it only takes one "Celerity" for a book to really push casters up). But for this to be power creep, there has to be specific things that are noticeable improvements over Core.

As you noted, variety itself is power. I'm not sure there's much powerful stuff here, it's more the implication that tons of spells will come out in the splat books and, again like you said, it only takes a few badly written spells to push it over the edge. How long until they start releasing spells that should require concentration that don't? It just takes little mistakes like that to let it get away from you.

[obryn]

Can the people talking about serious power creep actually point to which spells push the envelope of power? I understand the notion of "Wizards get a new 4th best spell at level 7 so now the best evoker spell list is a little better," and how if you iterate that over 2 years with a splat every 3 months wizards get a huge power bump (and it only takes one "Celerity" for a book to really push casters up). But for this to be power creep, there has to be specific things that are noticeable improvements over Core.
Option creep is power creep, when there's little cost to adding the option to your repetoire.

[Demonic Spoon]

Option creep is power creep, when there's little cost to adding the option to your repetoire.

There's exactly one class in the supplement for which that is true, and that's the druid. Note that there's a disclaimer next to the druid spell list that the DM will probably not let you access all of the spells on the list, instead picking some subset of them which is appropriate.

And that's still ignoring the fact that every supplement is plastered with disclaimers that these options exist in the campaign only at the DM's option and are not assumed.

[Gritmonger]

To sum up, folks wanted new feats or other options for fighters. And this seems to be a common thread.

[ChubbyRain]

Can the people talking about serious power creep actually point to which spells push the envelope of power? I understand the notion of "Wizards get a new 4th best spell at level 7 so now the best evoker spell list is a little better," and how if you iterate that over 2 years with a splat every 3 months wizards get a huge power bump (and it only takes one "Celerity" for a book to really push casters up). But for this to be power creep, there has to be specific things that are noticeable improvements over Core.

Powercreep isn't just how much stuff you can kill.

Powercreep can be better spells that target specific saves but another spell that targets a different save might do more damage. But now our can target Con instead of Dex so that pesky rogue will take disadvantage on their next weapon attack (nullifies sneak attack).

Powercreep can also be about control over the battlefield more so than direct damage. There are a few new spells that make controlling so much easier. You can target different ability scores in order to control the battle field.

Don't forget the first level spell... Ice Knife or something like that. Attack versus AC (1d10 P DMG) then burst Dex save or 2d6 Cold damage. Seriously? It isn't that it is super strong damage wise but a spell has its own backup plan?

Random note...

Just noticed, warding wind... I want that spell on my Aarakocra. Just for giggles I'll be a bard, pick up warding wind, lightning bolt and Sacred Flame (need a good at-will non attack roll cantrip)... This image is fun.

[eastmabl]

And that's still ignoring the fact that every supplement is plastered with disclaimers that these options exist in the campaign only at the DM's option and are not assumed.

Let's remember how many people seem to ignore the fact that feats and multiclassing are also at the DM's option.

[DireSickFish]

Don't forget the first level spell... Ice Knife or something like that. Attack versus AC (1d10 P DMG) then burst Dex save or 2d6 Cold damage. Seriously? It isn't that it is super strong damage wise but a spell has its own backup plan?


I read that spell and noted that it required an attack roll AND a failed save to do full damage and immediately thought that spell must do an average higher damage than comparable spells of the level. When comparing (factoring in the AoE the secondary damage is) I found that to be the case. Any spell which has both a to hit component and a save component should be stronger than a spell that only requires one. Because now the enemy has two forms of defense instead of just one.

The AoE I could do without as it makes it hard to target a creature and not hit allies with it, especially in a crowded mele.

[aceynn88]

To people going on about power creep similar to 3.5, keep in mind it was much easier to get a massive spell list. There were many parts of the classes there were inherently broken that allowed the abuse of the massive spell selection.

As long as they avoid that, casters shouldn't end up being as nuts.

[mephnick]

And that's still ignoring the fact that every supplement is plastered with disclaimers that these options exist in the campaign only at the DM's option and are not assumed.

True, and it doesn't matter for me, as I play with friends who know where my decisions come from. However for people that play with strangers, it's always easier to allow stuff than to not allow it. Power creep makes those discussions a lot more strained than they need to be.

[Chronos]

Well, to be fair, the biggest single power bump in this expansion isn't a spell. But a race that gets the equivalent of a third-level spell at-will and without requiring concentration? Yeah, that's definitely power creep.

Meanwhile, power-creep spells: Thunderclap is a cantrip that can hit up to 8 enemies at once, when the previous highest number of targets for a damage cantrip was 2. It's also a d6-damage bard cantrip, when previously the highest they got was a d4. Yes, it's melee-range only, but it's still overall an upgrade.

Bones of the Earth restrains targets and takes them out of melee range, without requiring concentration, and does damage at the same time.

Both Bones of the Earth and the lower-level Maximillian's Earthen Grasp impose a condition for a duration with only a single save. You can try to break free, but it requires a nonproficient ability check against a save DC that includes proficiency.

Absorb Elements provides near-universal energy resistance when you need it, and also adds a bunch of damage to your next attack, for a mere first-level spell with no concentration. Yeah, it's mostly for rangers and eldritch knights, who needed the help, but it's still creep.

The investiture spells give total immunity to an element, something that wasn't even present at all before, and additionally give other extra effects.

Warding Wind is a strong defense against many sorts of attacks, especially if you happen to be a birdfolk, but does nothing to stop you from casting out of it.

That's just from a quick skim-through. There might be more that I haven't noticed yet, but this thing has only been out for a couple of days, so far.

[obryn]

There's exactly one class in the supplement for which that is true, and that's the druid. Note that there's a disclaimer next to the druid spell list that the DM will probably not let you access all of the spells on the list, instead picking some subset of them which is appropriate.

And that's still ignoring the fact that every supplement is plastered with disclaimers that these options exist in the campaign only at the DM's option and are not assumed.
Hey now, I said 'little' cost. Which certainly describes Wizards in 5e, especially because you don't need to keep up with a magic item treadmill and have nothing better to spend your money on.

I think it's fair for any discussion like this to ignore the "Your DM may ban it!" disclaimers, because that's true about every option in the game, and therefore should be ignored while discussing mechanics.

[eastmabl]

I read that spell and noted that it required an attack roll AND a failed save to do full damage and immediately thought that spell must do an average higher damage than comparable spells of the level. When comparing (factoring in the AoE the secondary damage is) I found that to be the case. Any spell which has both a to hit component and a save component should be stronger than a spell that only requires one. Because now the enemy has two forms of defense instead of just one.

The AoE I could do without as it makes it hard to target a creature and not hit allies with it, especially in a crowded mele.

Let's also remember that Fire Bolt is a cantrip that does an attack v. AC which deals 1d10, and you can just do that all day long. Heck, it even scales with your character level - which is something than non-cantrips don't do.

To justify it being a first level spell, it must do something more, and that's the AoE secondary damage. Given the Dex saving throw, I don't think that it's any better than any other first level spell.

[Daishain]

Let's remember how many people seem to ignore the fact that feats and multiclassing are also at the DM's option.
Everything is at the DM's option. The game is designed with feats and multiclassing in mind, and D&D players have strong reason to expect them to still be an option. If the DM wishes to withhold, that is indeed up to them and is fine, for the same reason they're perfectly allowed to ban polymorph just because they don't want to mess with that junk. But in the meantime, don't get after the players who assume that feats and multiclassing will be allowed, it is a more than reasonable assumption.

A supplemental for a specific campaign module is another matter. Supplemental books tend to screw with balance, and a DM is expected to think twice before allowing such things.

[ChubbyRain]

Everything is at the DM's option. The game is designed with feats and multiclassing in mind, and D&D players have strong reason to expect them to still be an option. If the DM wishes to withhold, that is indeed up to them and is fine, for the same reason they're perfectly allowed to ban polymorph just because they don't want to mess with that junk. But in the meantime, don't get after the players who assume that feats and multiclassing will be allowed, it is a more than reasonable assumption.

A supplemental for a specific campaign module is another matter. Supplemental books tend to screw with balance, and a DM is expected to think twice before allowing such things.

Actually in 3.5 splat books were balanced better than core. You could get a good tier 3 and 4 game going with splats that had every type of character you could ever want and then some.

[Daishain]

Actually in 3.5 splat books were balanced better than core. You could get a good tier 3 and 4 game going with splats that had every type of character you could ever want and then some.
Yes and no.

A specific selection of 3.5 splat books can indeed do that. But another selection, or just allowing them all, would let a munchkin become a literal god.

I didn't say they were automatically a bad thing to have, just that DMs need to be careful with them.

[Demonic Spoon]

Hey now, I said 'little' cost. Which certainly describes Wizards in 5e, especially because you don't need to keep up with a magic item treadmill and have nothing better to spend your money on.

I think it's fair for any discussion like this to ignore the "Your DM may ban it!" disclaimers, because that's true about every option in the game, and therefore should be ignored while discussing mechanics.

It's not a "Your DM may ban it" disclaimer, it's a "This is only available to you if the DM has allowed it" disclaimer. The fundamental difference is that any given supplement is not assumed to be available until such a time as the DM says it is.

The default case is that players only have PHB options available to them. Anything else only exists when the DM has allowed other stuff. If we want to argue that the DM telling his players that all supplements are allowed causes some potential problems, then sure, that's fine...but that's not. You and others are speaking as if all supplements being available is the default, and it's not.

Additionally, wizards are not assumed to be able to just walk up to the magic shop and buy any spells they want any more than any other character is assumed to be able to walk into the magic item shop and pick up a +3 sword. You're making assumptions about the way the DM is running the game that contradict the default. The DM has to go out of his way to make the spells in the supplement available to the wizard.

People talk about feats and multiclassing as a given because allowing feats and multiclassing doesn't cause gameplay problems, and thus most DMs are going to allow them. Allowing everything from every supplement could cause problems, so it stands to reason that most DMs won't.

[obryn]

That's quibbling. The DM remains the gatekeeper.

[Demonic Spoon]

That's quibbling. The DM remains the gatekeeper.

Then what exactly is the problem? Unless you have a terrible DM, this so-called power creep won't ever happen because he won't tell everyone to use all supplements. And if he does, he'll quickly figure out how big of a pain it is to have everyone dig through 23 supplements to build a character and not do it anymore.

[ChubbyRain]

Then what exactly is the problem? Unless you have a terrible DM, this so-called power creep won't ever happen because he won't tell everyone to use all supplements. And if he does, he'll quickly figure out how big of a pain it is to have everyone dig through 23 supplements to build a character and not do it anymore.

The norm from what I've seen and done is as a DM you say that each player gets Core + 1 Supplement.

No bringing them together or anything like that, but each specific PC may be made with Core + Any Supplement of their choice.

Easy and let's people have their character that they want.

[DireSickFish]

I think on a forum such as this it is useful to determine what things a DM -should- dissalow and for what reasons. It is not very helpful for a DM looking to the forums to have this argument spring up every time and the end answer being "You can ban it or not ban it, do whatever you want".

Banning what you see as a problem should take place and will become prevalent as more splat is released. Everyone is going to take issue with something. Like having a rule against evil players in an all good party, or not allowing Kender in a game we should strive to determine why things are common bans and when the situations would arise to allow them. Evil PC's are allowed in an all evil party. Kenders can play in heavy PvP games where the players know from the outset they may have to turn on each other. Flying from lvl1 is fine because the story is going to take them tot he plain of air and I want to do some 3d fights, nudging other players to get options for flight or having more items available for it.

While I don't agree with all the doomsayers, I can see where they are coming from and that they do have a point. But I also enjoying looking at all this new stuff and coming up with guilds or characters for them.

[Knaight]

Then what exactly is the problem? Unless you have a terrible DM, this so-called power creep won't ever happen because he won't tell everyone to use all supplements. And if he does, he'll quickly figure out how big of a pain it is to have everyone dig through 23 supplements to build a character and not do it anymore.

So, a DM is terrible if they don't specifically go out of their way to keep the system from becoming broken. Good to know. Personally, I'd rather spend my GMing efforts doing something other than compensating for flaws in the system. Yeah, this one is easy to compensate for, but that's for the people on this board, a bunch of veteran gamers who mostly have a mathematical bent. This is exactly the sort of thing that could blindside a new GM or a GM not used to rules heavy systems, and 5e at least makes occasional noises about being friendly to new GMs and rules light (both of which are dubious claims).

[Demonic Spoon]

So, a DM is terrible if they don't specifically go out of their way to keep the system from becoming broken. Good to know. Personally, I'd rather spend my GMing efforts doing something other than compensating for flaws in the system. Yeah, this one is easy to compensate for, but that's for the people on this board, a bunch of veteran gamers who mostly have a mathematical bent. This is exactly the sort of thing that could blindside a new GM or a GM not used to rules heavy systems, and 5e at least makes occasional noises about being friendly to new GMs and rules light (both of which are dubious claims).


Quoting myself since I answered this already:



It's not a "Your DM may ban it" disclaimer, it's a "This is only available to you if the DM has allowed it" disclaimer. The fundamental difference is that any given supplement is not assumed to be available until such a time as the DM says it is.

The default case is that players only have PHB options available to them. Anything else only exists when the DM has allowed other stuff. If we want to argue that the DM telling his players that all supplements are allowed causes some potential problems, then sure, that's fine...but that's not. You and others are speaking as if all supplements being available is the default, and it's not.


It's not something that needs compensating for. The solution - to not allow supplements, or at least not allow all of them - is already the default option.

[Lord Raziere]

Yay! Genasi and Goliaths! I like those races, I hope to some day play them.

[obryn]

Then what exactly is the problem? Unless you have a terrible DM, this so-called power creep won't ever happen because he won't tell everyone to use all supplements. And if he does, he'll quickly figure out how big of a pain it is to have everyone dig through 23 supplements to build a character and not do it anymore.
Now we're calling DMs who like options but who don't want to go through the trouble of rebalancing potentially-broken published options "terrible"? :smalleek:

Is it actually too much to expect for WotC to gatekeep ahead of time? Isn't that part of the perk of going with published material instead of homebrewing everything?

[Madfellow]

Yay! Genasi and Goliaths! I like those races, I hope to some day play them.

This. :smallsmile:

[Demonic Spoon]

Now we're calling DMs who like options but who don't want to go through the trouble of rebalancing potentially-broken published options "terrible"? :smalleek:

Is it actually too much to expect for WotC to gatekeep ahead of time? Isn't that part of the perk of going with published material instead of homebrewing everything?

What exact problem are you referring two? There are a couple in this thread.

One is option bloat, which is what I'm talking about - there are so many character options that it becomes cumbersome to play because you feel compelled to dig through all supplements ever so as to pick the best/most fitting options from each one. This is the problem that people faced in 3.x - it wasn't really a balance issue, because core was generally regarded as less balanced than all splats. I suppose 'terrible' was a wrong word, because I guess some people like that.

The other is power creep, where the options presented in supplements overshadow the options presented in core, or by using supplements you gain extra stuff that you don't if you just use core. An example would be if a supplement listed a bunch of druid/cleric spells, and a DM allowed the druid/cleric to just consider anything in a supplement as part of the spell list, so by looking at supplements a single character has more options at his disposal (as opposed to, say, sorcerer spells, where the character only has a limited subset available at one time).

It sounds like the problem you're talking about is #2, which is an issue of the balance of any given supplement. However, it doesn't seem like any of your prior posts have actually complained about the balance of specific features in this supplement, but with the general idea of releasing supplements like this, so...I'm confused.

[Oscredwin]

Now we're calling DMs who like options but who don't want to go through the trouble of rebalancing potentially-broken published options "terrible"? :smalleek:

Is it actually too much to expect for WotC to gatekeep ahead of time? Isn't that part of the perk of going with published material instead of homebrewing everything?

Right now, it looks like the game will be played with these rules:

You pick a race, class, and class features out of the PHB,
You consider using the optional rules in the PHB if the DM allows
You consider the optional rules in the DMG if the DM allows
You MAY use a supplement that compliments your setting or campaign
And even some rules in there aren't available by default (such as the race that has at will flying)

This should be enough to prevent weak power(/option) creep.

This is still a lot more balanced than the 3.X PHB or the 4E PHB. The 4E PHB had a combo that would allow a ranger to kill anything in the MM if they could get next to it. This is a lot more powerful than a skeleton army and a lot less obvious than wish loops.

[Gritmonger]

This. :smallsmile:

I was looking at making an outcast Goliath Druid, whose specialty was in raising other Goliath children, until he raised the Chieftain, and she represented the pinnacle of his craft, so there was nothing more to be done in Goliath lands to top that...

[obryn]

It sounds like the problem you're talking about is #2, which is an issue of the balance of any given supplement. However, it doesn't seem like any of your prior posts have actually complained about the balance of specific features in this supplement, but with the general idea of releasing supplements like this, so...I'm confused.
It's kind of drifted, yes. That's what happens when the same conversation spreads across multiple threads!

My main concerns are with (1) a potentially never-ending release of spells, which will lead gradually towards power creep. And (2) WotC releasing mechanically iffy stuff like the Aarakocra. WotC should act as the gatekeeper on (2), but (1) is inevitable given enough new spells.

So ... release other stuff, but test it first. We have plenty of spells and spellcasters don't need the help!


This is still a lot more balanced than the 3.X PHB or the 4E PHB. The 4E PHB had a combo that would allow a ranger to kill anything in the MM if they could get next to it. This is a lot more powerful than a skeleton army and a lot less obvious than wish loops.
Yeah, that Ranger bit existed but was fortunately nerfed thanks to 4e's vigorous errata schedule! :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Quoth ChubbyRain:

The norm from what I've seen and done is as a DM you say that each player gets Core + 1 Supplement.
It's too early to say about 5e, with only one or two supplements out (depending on whether you count the Eberron thing), but in 3.x, this was a terrible way to do it. Under that rule, a wizard could choose the Spell Compendium, or maybe Complete Arcane, and get nearly everything they want all from one source, but the good things that rogues and fighters got were scattered all over the place, and so picking any one splatbook would only give you maybe 10% of what you want. A rogue could pick Lords of Madness for their one splatbook to have a chance to be competent at stealth from the Darkstalker feat, or they could pick Champions of Ruin for Craven to get a decent amount of damage, but they couldn't do both, and neither of those books offers anything else at all of interest to a rogue.

[silveralen]

Yeah, that Ranger bit existed but was fortunately nerfed thanks to 4e's vigorous errata schedule! :smallbiggrin:

Online updates many tables weren't even aware existed and might not have any reason to look for, which added to tons and tons of bookkeeping by forcing people tor reference multiple sources for a single ability?

If you can deal with that, you can deal with the default being no supplements without the DM's okay, who can ban anything if does appear abusive/broken. That's literally less work for the table. They don't have to identify a specific problem and look for a solution, merely disallow extra options on the basis it could cause a problem. Not that you seem to have any specific ability in mind, more just general anger about elemental supplement being caster focused, despite that being something we always knew could happen due to the nature of the supplement itself.

Now, when the next supplement comes around and is either based around a heavy magic theme or a non magic theme whose player handbook is 2/3rd's spells, then I think we can agree we have a reason to be annoyed.

[Vogonjeltz]

Second, this confirms something I was worried about as soon as I saw 5th edition: In what directions can it expand? You can always introduce new spells, but there's not nearly as much you can give to mundanes. In 3rd edition, you could at least hope for new prestige classes and feats, but in this edition there are no prestige classes, and feats are somewhere between rare and nonexistent. But spells? Yeah, we're getting plenty of those, and so the already overpowered casters just get even more overpowered.

New spells can always be introduced because spells are discrete powers that do nothing more than what they say and without them existing the activity would be totally impossible for a caster. Besides which, because of the severely limited number of spells that can be accessible at any given time there's an ever expanding opportunity cost associated with choosing any given spell to know or memorize for the day.

In contrast, most if not all non-spell activities are flexible and can be done at will. There's no need to discretely define such things, because there are no limitations.

[obryn]

Online updates many tables weren't even aware existed and might not have any reason to look for, which added to tons and tons of bookkeeping by forcing people tor reference multiple sources for a single ability?

If you can deal with that, you can deal with the default being no supplements without the DM's okay, who can ban anything if does appear abusive/broken. That's literally less work for the table. They don't have to identify a specific problem and look for a solution, merely disallow extra options on the basis it could cause a problem. Not that you seem to have any specific ability in mind, more just general anger about elemental supplement being caster focused, despite that being something we always knew could happen due to the nature of the supplement itself.

The difference, of course, is that 4e didn't have a balance issue when supplemental material was added. :smallsmile: (No excuse for getting it wrong in the first place, mind you. But they did. And I'd rather they fix their errors rather than leave it to the DM to fix.)

An Elemental book doesn't need to be caster-dominated. And it can certainly be more than spell lists. Elemental Barbarians, feats that make your weapons catch fire, stuff for Monks, Battlemaster maneuvers for elemental resistance, element-focused paladins, etc.

[Envyus]

When I saw the cover art for Princes of the Apocalypse, with that winged elf chick, I got my hopes up for it.

According to Chris Perkins Aerisi the Air Prophet is actually a normal Moon Elf. She uses magic to give herself Illusory Wings to make herself look like an Averial.

[cobaltstarfire]

An Elemental book doesn't need to be caster-dominated. And it can certainly be more than spell lists. Elemental Barbarians, feats that make your weapons catch fire, stuff for Monks, Battlemaster maneuvers for elemental resistance, element-focused paladins, etc.


Legitimate question, but how would you do maneuvers that give elemental resistance?

I think it'd be cool if there elementally maneuvers, like being able to send a slash of air to cut someone, or smash the ground so hard the ground punches someone nearby or far away. Or hitting water so hard it...does something to the enemy??

But I can't imagine using physical prows to give elemental resistance, sounds like a fun project though. I think I will agree that more interesting and cool stuff for the other players could have been added. But at the same time I can't bring myself expect too much from a free supplement. (but it IS nice that they are making the supplements available, rather than expecting people to buy the campaigns for their new toys).


Is the elemental evil adventure out yet? Anyone know if there is more player stuff in it than what is present in the supplement?

[Envyus]

Is the elemental evil adventure out yet? Anyone know if there is more player stuff in it than what is present in the supplement?

The only player stuff in the adventure is supposed to be the Genasi and the Spells. Anyway the Adventure won't be out until the end of the month if it has a 10 day early release for Wizard stores like the other books.

[obryn]

Legitimate question, but how would you do maneuvers that give elemental resistance?

I think it'd be cool if there elementally maneuvers, like being able to send a slash of air to cut someone, or smash the ground so hard the ground punches someone nearby or far away. Or hitting water so hard it...does something to the enemy??

But I can't imagine using physical prows to give elemental resistance, sounds like a fun project though. I think I will agree that more interesting and cool stuff for the other players could have been added.
Some of those would be supernatural, but I think that would be fine. Not every magic needs to be a spell. :smallsmile:

[cobaltstarfire]

Some of those would be supernatural, but I think that would be fine. Not every magic needs to be a spell. :smallsmile:

That's true enough, I tend to forget that at times.

[ChubbyRain]

It's too early to say about 5e, with only one or two supplements out (depending on whether you count the Eberron thing), but in 3.x, this was a terrible way to do it. Under that rule, a wizard could choose the Spell Compendium, or maybe Complete Arcane, and get nearly everything they want all from one source, but the good things that rogues and fighters got were scattered all over the place, and so picking any one splatbook would only give you maybe 10% of what you want. A rogue could pick Lords of Madness for their one splatbook to have a chance to be competent at stealth from the Darkstalker feat, or they could pick Champions of Ruin for Craven to get a decent amount of damage, but they couldn't do both, and neither of those books offers anything else at all of interest to a rogue.

If you are allowing wizards in your game then you obviously are OK with a high powered game, the core wizard is so unbalanced/powerful it doesn't matter if you give them 0, 1, or 1,000 splat books you get the same result... An unbalanced class that is going to break the game, even if the player doesn't mean to.

So don't play the game with a wizard and a barbarian but tier 3 or 4 caster class an the barbarian.

Of course some people like playing high powered games and the Core + 1 Splat still works just fine.

[SharkForce]

if DMs limiting what books are allowed is so widespread, then why is it that practically every single review for 5e that i read was almost singing a hallelujah chorus over not having any expansion books. i mean, there shouldn't be a meaningful difference between having or not having them if limiting their use is standard practice.

[silveralen]

The difference, of course, is that 4e didn't have a balance issue when supplemental material was added. :smallsmile: (No excuse for getting it wrong in the first place, mind you. But they did. And I'd rather they fix their errors rather than leave it to the DM to fix.)

An Elemental book doesn't need to be caster-dominated. And it can certainly be more than spell lists. Elemental Barbarians, feats that make your weapons catch fire, stuff for Monks, Battlemaster maneuvers for elemental resistance, element-focused paladins, etc.

True, but it has yet to actually be broken supplement wise. I mean, there is nothing in this book that is real power creep that I can see. Maybe ranger, but the majority of the options have something in the PHB I'd say is at least as good and probably better overall. Example: Melf's meteor's look pretty good, till you realize it adds up to 12d6 fire damage with a five foot radius spread over multiple actions competing with fireball for the slot. There are times it might be better, but they overlap enough that people learning both either over invest for only mildly different effects or else pick one or the other. It's only power creep if you could switch it at will or had constant access to every spell printed at any given moment. Which is why Schrodinger's wizard isn't a good balance point.

Elemental barbarian I'm with you on. Feats that make your weapon catch fire would be magic initiate+absorb elements. Monks are a bit sad, but it is mainly an issue with elemental monks being given silly spell like abilities rather than a true spell list with a couple of unique spells cast-able with ki, then they could just ahve a header like everyone else. Battlemaster.... I think that's more fitting for eldritch knight, who gets absorb elements. Elemental paladin... eh sure I guess but honestly I'd put an elemental ranger up there first and even that'd be pretty magic heavy.

So, I partially agree, but I don't think its really all that shocking or indeed that bad. I'll give it one more personally though I suppose I can see why it might bother you, as I think we have different expectations about what the future will hold for some aspects of the game (and very different desires).

[Naanomi]

I am not generally a fan of 'more elves' but I was hoping aquatic elves would make an appearance; it was weird seeing Sahaugin in the MM without them and this would be a place to introduce them formally. Maybe they may still be in the monster section.

[Kurald Galain]

Then what exactly is the problem? Unless you have a terrible DM, this so-called power creep won't ever happen because he won't tell everyone to use all supplements. And if he does, he'll quickly figure out how big of a pain it is to have everyone dig through 23 supplements to build a character and not do it anymore.

I don't believe so.

First, WOTC will want players to use more options, since it sells books. Second, players want to be able to use all the options, because it increases their versatility. And third, there's the public campaign, which will probably default to allowing everything again.

So regardless of any minor "the DM may ban this" disclaimers, there is a strong push from multiple sides to let players use their sourcebooks. That has basically always been the case with D&D. It doesn't mean that every DM will allow everything, but DMs that successfully manage to restrict their campaign to "core only" or somesuch are very much the minority.

[themaque]

Considering it's a freebie, I'm mostly happy with it. Would have liked to see some alternate paths for mundanes, Ice Rager or something, but I got what I paid for, and now can easily have PC Svnerf... Svnierg.. Sn... Deep Gnomes.

[silveralen]

I don't believe so.

First, WOTC will want players to use more options, since it sells books. Second, players want to be able to use all the options, because it increases their versatility. And third, there's the public campaign, which will probably default to allowing everything again.

First: Well they aren't selling these supplants so far. It's free. Their profit comes in if you buy the adventures (and minis I suppose). The actual player options nets them zero dosh. Which is rather interesting as a strategy, though it probably accounts for the quick and dirty supplement we got this time.

Second: Of course they will. Even options exclusively marked as "only with DM approval" and "not intended for player usage" will often have some players assume they can grab it regardless. This is just one of those things DMs have to deal with from players.

Third: Well, no actually. It looks like each season will use the current supplement and might allow others if fitting, but likely won't allow global access to all. That's the impression the elemental evil adventure league guide gives at least.

The latter point is actually something I quite like. The default PHB has generic options for all settings and themes, the latter supplements are more specialized. This actually encourages DMs to pick supplements for their campaign based on theme and gives them a good way to convey it to players without drilling them on every aspect of the campaign. 3.5 tried this, but it wasn't something I saw PF or 4e carry through from it. When PF did, it still tended to add options people needed to make some characters work (annoying) and 4e started trying it when 4e had already shot itself in the foot via essentials.

[ChubbyRain]

Hmmm so why are people OK with power creep for the casters (it is there, look at all the juicy controller spells) but freak out when martials get or proposed to get their own power creep.

Even a tiny bit of martial power creep and people flip their lids while if casters get 47 new spells that expand their options (and thus power) those same people don't bat an eye?

[Demonic Spoon]

I don't believe so.

First, WOTC will want players to use more options, since it sells books. Second, players want to be able to use all the options, because it increases their versatility. And third, there's the public campaign, which will probably default to allowing everything again.

So regardless of any minor "the DM may ban this" disclaimers, there is a strong push from multiple sides to let players use their sourcebooks. That has basically always been the case with D&D. It doesn't mean that every DM will allow everything, but DMs that successfully manage to restrict their campaign to "core only" or somesuch are very much the minority.


You say that it sells books, but their supplements thus far have followed the design philosophy that they espoused before, which is not to sell splats full of character options but instead to focus on setting/adventure material. The supplements are crammed with disclaimers that the options are not available by default, which pretty directly contradicts WotC's supposed goal if getting everyone to use everything.

Individual players might want to use individual features from some supplements, but looking down the line when there are a bunch of such supplements out, most players are not going to want to dig through >9000 supplements just to build a character. If a character pushes to use a non-allowed supplement, then it's the DM's job to say no, just as in 3.5 if a player pushed to use some terribly-balanced homebrew from dandwiki or wanted to create one of the many RAW-legal cheese builds like Punpun.

The supplement that was just released is inexorably tied to the current adventurer's league season. The next season after it will almost certainly not allow use of the Elemental Evil material.

And, once again, as I've said many times in this thread, the disclaimer does not say "The DM may ban this". The disclaimer says "These are not available options unless the DM says so". That's a huge difference.


Even a tiny bit of martial power creep and people flip their lids while if casters get 47 new spells that expand their options (and thus power) those same people don't bat an eye?


It does not increase their power. Only druids, clerics, and paladins get to access their full spell list on any particular character. Of those, only the druid got new spells in this supplement, and those new spells came with the disclaimer that the DM will likely only choose a specific subset that is thematically appropriate, and that they are not considered to be available for all druids all the time.

[obryn]

Hmmm so why are people OK with power creep for the casters (it is there, look at all the juicy controller spells) but freak out when martials get or proposed to get their own power creep.

Even a tiny bit of martial power creep and people flip their lids while if casters get 47 new spells that expand their options (and thus power) those same people don't bat an eye?
Well, I do have an Anonymous Source(tm) who claims they're currently testing Faerun options with plenty of new stuff - archetypes, domains, and patrons. And no spells as such. And a more warlord-like Fighter archetype.

So if this is indeed what's coming out next ... well, that's good news indeed, I'd say. But I have this hunch that the final form will be a lot more regressive than all that.

(Take all this or leave it. The dude has been spot on with all his other inside information, but eh.)


It does not increase their power. Only druids, clerics, and paladins get to access their full spell list on any particular character. Of those, only the druid got new spells in this supplement, and those new spells came with the disclaimer that the DM will likely only choose a specific subset that is thematically appropriate, and that they are not considered to be available for all druids all the time.
Versatility is power, was his point.

If you have a bunch more options now which aren't strictly inferior in all respects, or that do novel things you couldn't do before, that amounts to power creep. It's not necessarily massive, and it's slow-moving, but it is called 'power creep' and not 'power sprint'.

[Knaight]

Hmmm so why are people OK with power creep for the casters (it is there, look at all the juicy controller spells) but freak out when martials get or proposed to get their own power creep.
It's not just the controller spells either. There's a cantrip which hits everyone within 5 feet, which is downright amazing in some niche applications. There's the new races, including one which flies, but can't wear heavy armor - so, casters can take it and get a really powerful ability at effectively no cost.

[mephnick]

It does not increase their power. Only druids, clerics, and paladins get to access their full spell list on any particular character. Of those, only the druid got new spells in this supplement, and those new spells came with the disclaimer that the DM will likely only choose a specific subset that is thematically appropriate, and that they are not considered to be available for all druids all the time.

The investure spells offer immunity to all types of damage, which is a major option that wasn't available before. They are available to all casters that I can see, except rangers (lol seriously?) and clerics, which got nothing. You can't seriously argue this isn't powercreep, because it objectively is.

[Demonic Spoon]

Versatility is power, was his point.

If you have a bunch more options now which aren't strictly inferior in all respects, or that do novel things you couldn't do before, that amounts to power creep. It's not necessarily massive, and it's slow-moving, but it is called 'power creep' and not 'power sprint'.


Yes, I know. But one character does not get all of those options. One character gets exactly as many options as they did before, they just choose from a greater list. That's like saying that adding a new subclass or adding a new race amounts to power creep.


The investure spells offer immunity to all types of damage, which is a major option that wasn't available before. They are available to all casters that I can see, except rangers (lol seriously?) and clerics, which got nothing. You can't seriously argue this isn't powercreep, because it objectively is.


Are the investure spells so incredibly good that all casters are going to take them over other 6th level spells? I don't think so. They're concentration-based and highly-specific buffs. If they are equal options to other available 6th level spells, there is no power creep.

[obryn]

Yes, I know. But one character does not get all of those options. One character gets exactly as many options as they did before, they just choose from a greater list. That's like saying that adding a new subclass or adding a new race amounts to power creep.
No, one character does not get all the options. We know this. But they get to pick from a larger list of options, some of which will be better-suited to whichever situation is at hand. With a character like a Wizard or divine caster, their list of available options will increase, and some of those will make them more powerful in some circumstances.

[Demonic Spoon]

No, one character does not get all the options. We know this. But they get to pick from a larger list of options, some of which will be better-suited to whichever situation is at hand. With a character like a Wizard or divine caster, their list of available options will increase, and some of those will make them more powerful in some circumstances.

I assume by divine caster you mean clerics, druids, or paladins? In all of these cases, the DM decides which spells from the new lists are usable.

In the case of the wizard, the DM still decides because the DM determines which spells the NPCs have, which spells shops may have, and which spell scrolls show up as loot.

[Yorrin]

I think the thread has gotten to the point where everyone is talking past each other, because I've seen the same arguments cycle through a few times now. I think we can all agree that some people fear power/option creep based on this supplement and others think that we don't need to worry yet. Much of the disconnect seems to be based on assumptions of the role, duties, and power of the DM, a subject on which there is little broad consensus. The other disconnect seems to be on the role of WoTC as the publisher of this material, to the degree that they control and/or influence game balance. Once again, there are several schools of thought on this and it seems clear to me that the two "sides" of the current argument take opposing views on this point as well, which greatly influences their lines of argumentation, and also explains why neither side finds the other persuasive. Suffice it to say there's a deeper issue here than power creep, and I don't think anyone is going to move from their current position without some fundamental changes in understanding about the foundational issues.

[Chronos]

Even for characters like sorcerers who can't easily change their spells, introducing new spells is still power creep. A sorcerer who knows, say, ten spells will pick what they consider the best ten spells. Now, this is not a simple objective decision: Different people will disagree on what the best ten spells are, and it'll depend on what you're trying to do with the character, what's going on in your campaign, and so on. But for any given person, and any given context, there will be ten spells that are the best.

Now, along comes a supplement, with new spells. Most of them will be worse (for you) than your tenth-best spell. Those don't matter to you: You're just going to ignore them, like you've ignored the majority of spells you already had on your class list. But suppose that one, just one, of the new spells is better than your previous choice of tenth-best-spell. Maybe one of the new spells comes in at, say, seventh place for you. Now, when you're making a sorcerer, you drop your #10 spell, and replace it with the new one.

You've now replaced a worse spell with a better one. Your character is improved, by an amount equal to the difference between those two spells. It's a small improvement, maybe, but it's there. And you'll probably improve again when the next supplement is released, and the one after that, and so on. That's power creep.