Can someone make sure I'm understanding the spell Awaken correctly?

[Ephemeral_Being]

As a thought experiment, I decided to create a province ruled by a sentient tree. Think the Swamp, in Avatar: The Last Airbender. But slapped with an Awaken spell. Logically, it actually makes a lot of sense. Trees live longer than people do. Thousands of years. They can have memory of events from ages long past. And the way Awakened is worded, the Awakened creature would be friendly to its creator. Making it a benevolent ruler. Anyway. The logic, and the lore behind that logic I'm set on. It's the specifics of how Awaken works that I need clarification with.

1. Does a tree have a Constitution score? Or, because it's basically a Construct, is that null? It does use the Plant subtype rules and not the Construct ones, right? Meaning the HD and Saves need to be adjusted?

2. Can an awakened tree get class levels? Specifically, I want it to be a Cleric.

3. All these Plant HD. It gets skill points for those. But, does it get "advancement" like a normal character does? As a Gargantuan creature, that's 32HD. Should he have feats and attribute points related to that? I'm not really familiar with the rules behind racial HD.

4. Can I apply templates to it? What templates can I put on a giant plant?

5. The description for Awaken says that:

The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you.
Does that mean that the tree has an alignment? Can sentient plants HAVE alignments? Or is that restricted to creatures?

6. How do the answers you would get from speaking with an Awakened plant be different from those you get using "Speak with Plants" on a regular tree? Does one necessarily have a better memory, or clarity of thought? Are there rules for this somewhere?

7. Does Dispel Magic end Awaken? I think because the duration is "Instantaneous" the answer is "No," but I wanted to make 100% sure.

If I could get a few answers, I'd really appreciate it.

[Flickerdart]

1. A tree does not have a Constitution score, and Awaken does not grant it one. An awakened tree is a plant with a Constitution nonability. It is Plant type so you'll need to adjust HP and saves, yes.

2. If it goes out and adventures, there's no reason an awakened tree (as an intelligent creature) can't gain levels.

3. Feats are a function of HD, so the plant would gain these (the animated object doesn't because it has no Int). The attribute scores, however, are not gained because they're part of the creature's existing stats.

4. Any acquired (not inherited) template that says it can be put on a plant.

5. Every intelligent creature has an alignment (I would make the trees Neutral Good, like treants, but there are no rules on this). However, "friendly" is not an alignment but an attitude, which even nonintelligent creatures have.

6. An animated object has better senses than a tree (since the default assumption for a creature is that they can see, while none such exists for objects). An intelligent tree will also be able to make conclusions and follow abstract trails of thought, so it will be more helpful than a regular tree, which might not even understand events on a day to day timescale. There aren't really rules for any of this since Speak with Plants basically leaves it up to the DM to determine how it works.

7. You're correct - Dispel cannot undo Awaken, nor any other Instantaneous spell. Once an Instantaneous spell has worked, the magic is gone, so Dispel can no more undo Awaken than it can cure the damage from Fireball.

[DeltaEmil]

1. No, the awakened tree does not have a Constitution score despite being of the plant type. No, the awakened tree still uses the HD and saves from being an animated object/the construct creature type (but its Will save will definitely be higher because it will have a higher Wisdom modifier). It's the same confusing thing like those human barbarians summoned by a horn of valhalla that are constructs...

2. Yes. But it will have to earn those class levels, just like player characters or NPCs earn their class levels.

3. It does not have plant HD, despite being of the plant type. However, it does gain skill points (2+Int modifier) for having an Intelligence score. The awakened tree will not be able to gain bonus hit dice of the construct type. But it can gain class levels. Yes, it will have feats because it has an Intelligence score. No, it will not gain increases to ability scores based on its (existing) number of HD. It would gain increases to its ability scores when it gains class levels.

4. Unless your character has some special feat, or the tree has some special properties, then no, you (as a player character) cannot apply templates to it.

5. All creatures have alignments, even ones with no intelligence scores (they normally however always default to true neutral / neutral). Creatures with an Intelligence score could have any alignment. It is very likely that the awakened tree would first have a neutral alignment, and then perhaps shift to another one depending on its own experience and path. The line about the awakened animal or tree being friendly to you has nothing to with its alignment (if your NG druid would awaken a tree that for whatever weird reason immediately starts with a chaotic evil alignment, it would still be friendly to you and inclined to serve you as per the spell).

6. Generally, an awakened tree will now be able to make more sensible comments with its new Intelligence and Wisdom score (even if you rolled a 3 for both) than a tree without those ability scores. It now also gains senses similar to that of a human, so it would probably now be able to understand colors and smells and the passage of time and such.

7. No, dispel magic does not end the awaken spell.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Flickerdart is correct on all counts, I just want to add a little on the topic of con scores. You are, as DM, well within your rights to give plants a con score, even before the Awaken spell. After all, trees are living beings - treating them as objects doesn't quite make sense, especially in this case, where you are taking away all the other object-like properties of trees. In my opinion, it suits trees to have very high con scores, and significant natural armour and DR.

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart is correct on all counts, I just want to add a little on the topic of con scores. You are, as DM, well within your rights to give plants a con score, even before the Awaken spell. After all, trees are living beings - treating them as objects doesn't quite make sense, especially in this case, where you are taking away all the other object-like properties of trees. In my opinion, it suits trees to have very high con scores, and significant natural armour and DR.
Agreed - the lack of CON scores on animated trees is overwhelmingly likely to be a mistake on the part of the designers. I wouldn't go as far as to give trees Constitution scores though, since they have no INT or WIS or CHA and are therefore not creatures.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Alright, cool. Thanks.

Does anyone know of templates that I can apply to an Awakened tree? It's only Type:Plant, right? With no subtypes?

[FocusWolf413]

If the tree is a thousand years old and has roots that stretch for several miles in every direction (like in ATLA), it would make sense that the tree could just gain experience from living that long. It wouldn't necessarily need to adventure and kill things. Just acting as the heart of the forest would be enough.

At least, that's how I would rule it.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, under the Plant type:

Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities, above) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.
So it does have a constitution score (since otherwise, it would not be alive). It's not defined what it is (because apparently, pushing out worthless PRCs nobody will ever take is a better use of page space than giving stats for minor-but-common objects), but it does have some CON score.

[Bronk]

Alright, cool. Thanks.

Does anyone know of templates that I can apply to an Awakened tree? It's only Type:Plant, right? With no subtypes?

If, in your thought experiment, you're a player, then the most you could usually do is maximize the 'Awaken', empower it, and so on, to get the most out of your new benevolent ruler's mental scores.

If, in your thought experiment, you're the DM, then you could add quite a few templates to it, even inherited templates... maybe the tree you actually awakened mated with a dragon or something, and your new benevolent ruler is actually their progeny.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, under the Plant type:

So it does have a constitution score (since otherwise, it would not be alive). It's not defined what it is (because apparently, pushing out worthless PRCs nobody will ever take is a better use of page space than giving stats for minor-but-common objects), but it does have some CON score.
Objects don't need CON scores to be alive. The CON nonability rule is - "Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism." There is no mention of objects.

[Ephemeral_Being]

If, in your thought experiment, you're the DM, then you could add quite a few templates to it, even inherited templates... maybe the tree you actually awakened mated with a dragon or something, and your new benevolent ruler is actually their progeny.

I thought I had tagged this DM Help. Oh well.

My funny, high-powered group sailed to a province that has no information in any sourcebook I can find. They were the setting for a novel that I don't have time to read. So I'm making it up. And I decided that the ruler is a tree. Because I was looking for an interesting form of government on Wikipedia, found "Plantocracry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantocracy)," and decided it was a crying shame that didn't mean "Governance by plants."

So, yeah. I'm looking to make an almost demigod-like, Lawful Evil sentient tree. Because I think they'll get a kick out of it. Our one real "agreement" is that I don't homebrew anything. And they don't, either. They have full use of any book in an attempt to make the most broken, power-hungry and fun characters that they can think of. But I have to play by the same rules. Hence looking for templates that I can legally apply to a sentient tree.

Do any exist? Or am I just out of luck?

[EyethatBinds]

Objects don't need CON scores to be alive. The CON nonability rule is - "Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism." There is no mention of objects.

Trees have a metabolism and clearly are corporeal. Trees have parts that can be identified, and thus have a body.

[Flickerdart]

Trees have a metabolism and clearly are corporeal. Trees have parts that can be identified, and thus have a body.

But they are not creatures. Those are all rules for creatures.

[OttoVonBigby]

Since you asked about dispelling, FWIW the feeblemind spell would presumably affect an awakened creature, in effect un-awakening it. The following is my interpretation (don't call it a houserule :) ) after having read about this issue somewhere on this forum:
"Awaken cannot be used to counter the effects of feeblemind directly, though a formerly-awakened creature subjected to feeblemind can be re-awakened (with new rolls for its Intelligence and Charisma)."

[Bronk]

Since you asked about dispelling, FWIW the feeblemind spell would presumably affect an awakened creature, in effect un-awakening it. The following is my interpretation (don't call it a houserule :) ) after having read about this issue somewhere on this forum:
"Awaken cannot be used to counter the effects of feeblemind directly, though a formerly-awakened creature subjected to feeblemind can be re-awakened (with new rolls for its Intelligence and Charisma)."

At worst, feeblemind brings intelligence and charisma down to 1, reversibly. Even if it brought it to zero, that's still different from '-', a non-ability. Because of that, and because there is a lot more going on with the awaken spell than mental abilities, I think that other tread came to the wrong conclusion.

[tordirycgoyust]

Hold on...
1. A Creature is a thing with both a Wisdom and Charisma score that can take actions.
2. Living Creatures have a Constitution score.
3. Nonliving Creatures are either Undead or Constructs (or Revenants, but those are non-core, and the unfortunate result of not reading the Undead type correctly).
4. Unless specified otherwise, Ability scores are 10.
5. Awakened Trees are Living Creatures of the Plant type.
6. Therefore, Awakened Trees have a Constitution score of 10.

[DeltaEmil]

The spell's description overrides logical and/or plausible arguments if awakened trees ought to have a Constitution score or not.

[Psyren]

If you want to make it a powerful Cleric or Druid without all those pesky class levels, Pathfinder has you covered: Cleric Creature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates/cleric-creature-cr-1-2-or-3) | Druid Creature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates/druid-creature-cr-1-2-or-3)

[tordirycgoyust]

The spell's description overrides logical and/or plausible arguments if awakened trees ought to have a Constitution score or not.The line "except that it gains the plant type" implies that the specific rule that it has the characteristics of an awakened object does not apply to the general rule of plant traits. The need for a specific rule about senses is further, if minor, evidence of this.

EDIT: After some more thought, I feel the question is whether plant traits are added to, xor replace, construct traits, which I can't seem to find rules for.

[Flickerdart]

4. Unless specified otherwise, Ability scores are 10.
I don't think I've ever seen this rule anywhere.

[tordirycgoyust]

I don't think I've ever seen this rule anywhere.If an Ability score has no listed modifier, and it's not a nonability (ie: the 2 ways it may be specified otherwise), then it is 10 (or 11).

[Flickerdart]

If an Ability score has no listed modifier, and it's not a nonability (ie: the 2 ways it may be specified otherwise), then it is 10 (or 11).
That's not a rules citation, that's just saying the same thing again. There are two things you haven't explained:
1: Why, despite the tree having the stats of the animated object sans mental scores, it should have a Constitution score too;
2: Why the animated tree should be awarded the 10/11 array for one ability score only.

Specific trumps the general rule. Living creatures have CON scores is a general rule. Awakened trees don't, because they are not described to acquire one.

[Coidzor]

1. Does a tree have a Constitution score? Or, because it's basically a Construct, is that null? It does use the Plant subtype rules and not the Construct ones, right? Meaning the HD and Saves need to be adjusted?

Tree? *shrug* Nothing that would interact with a tree's constitution score to my recollection.

An Awakened Tree, on the other hand, needs a Constitution score as a creature with the Plant type, but, ultimately, that's up to you as the DM because the RAW isn't clear.

Much like how the RAW isn't clear on the matter of what happens when a dog wears a +2 Int item.


2. Can an awakened tree get class levels? Specifically, I want it to be a Cleric.

Yes. They don't have a listed LA or CR adjustment, though, so you have to adhoc that.


3. All these Plant HD. It gets skill points for those. But, does it get "advancement" like a normal character does? As a Gargantuan creature, that's 32HD. Should he have feats and attribute points related to that? I'm not really familiar with the rules behind racial HD.

Grey area. A creature with 32 HD would have the ability score increases assumed to already have been factored into its ability scores. Seeing as how a Gargantuan Animated Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm)(because that's what an awakened tree uses as its base (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm)) has 16 HD by default, you only count the ability score increases for those last 16 HD.

The Awakened Tree should have feats for all of its HD, though.


4. Can I apply templates to it? What templates can I put on a giant plant?

Any templates that can be applied to it may be applied and you can always find a way to apply templates as the DM.


5. The description for Awaken says that:

Does that mean that the tree has an alignment? Can sentient plants HAVE alignments? Or is that restricted to creatures?

An Awakened Tree is a creature. Creatures have alignment. Ergo, Awakened Trees have alignment.


6. How do the answers you would get from speaking with an Awakened plant be different from those you get using "Speak with Plants" on a regular tree? Does one necessarily have a better memory, or clarity of thought? Are there rules for this somewhere?

Potentially better grammar, more complex sentiments and concepts can be processed and communicated back and forth and a sophont has the ability to learn and understand and internalize and generalize from information it has received, though how effective this is varies based upon the mental ability scores.


7. Does Dispel Magic end Awaken? I think because the duration is "Instantaneous" the answer is "No," but I wanted to make 100% sure.

Instantaneous = no.

Do you see any scenario where you'd want to have the answer be otherwise for drama that would actually lead to increasing player engagement or fun? It seems more liable to lead to negative play experiences to me.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Potentially better grammar, more complex sentiments and concepts can be processed and communicated back and forth and a sophont has the ability to learn and understand and internalize and generalize from information it has received, though how effective this is varies based upon the mental ability scores.

Do you see any scenario where you'd want to have the answer be otherwise for drama that would actually lead to increasing player engagement or fun? It seems more liable to lead to negative play experiences to me.

Well. The original idea was to have just a NORMAL plant in charge of the entire country. But then I got to thinking. Could one of those even understand complex questions? Global politics? Morality, and memory? So I went to using an Awakened one.

I think it would be funnier if it was a normal plant. And they had to talk to it using Speak with Plants. But if a typical tree isn't mentally competent enough to rule a country, I have to Awaken it. Which has upsides, and downsides. Upside, it can basically be Treant from Golden Sun. Downside, they can't kill it by simply lighting it on fire. Because with 300+ HP, it would take even this party 4-5 rounds to down him. All while getting beat on by a tree. Which I have to admit would be kind of funny. But I kind of wanted to keep the option of actually overthrowing the plant king as an option to them.

So that's kind of where this line of questioning was going. I'm trying to decide which one I'm going to use. It looks like either way, I'm going to have to make a judgement call, because there's no clear RAW answer to all these questions that I have. Which, after 15 YEARS, you would think someone would have noticed by now. But, anyway.

In your best judgement, would a plant ruling a country need to be Awakened in order to do a sufficient job? Or is it possible a normal tree could do just as well?

[Maglubiyet]

In your best judgement, would a plant ruling a country need to be Awakened in order to do a sufficient job? Or is it possible a normal tree could do just as well?

Using the world leaders of the Earth as a model, I'd say a regular tree would do just fine.

But maybe you could add the Paragon template to it, just to be sure.

[Grek]

In your best judgement, would a plant ruling a country need to be Awakened in order to do a sufficient job? Or is it possible a normal tree could do just as well?

Well, there's head of state and head of government. Are you OK with there being a corrupt council of Druids who are in charge of casting Speak with Plants and presenting laws to the King Tree for approval? And with these druids "interpreting" the will of the King Tree to mean whatever they want it to mean?

[Coidzor]

If you want there to be a magical tree which is intelligent and wise but immobile and just a tree beside from its ability to think and reason and talk and listen, you could also just do that.

Just have it physically resilient enough that it won't die from a stiff wind or would require something specific to kill it and you should be good.

Or if you just wanna use awakened tree or even Treant stats for a quick idea of what it can do if it gets in a fight you can also have an option for them to get rid of it via treachery instead if you want them to offer them that path or they start to seek it out, too.

[Kraken]

If you opt to give your tree leader class levels, I'd opt for druid3/wu jen3/mystic theurge4/arcane hierophant10

Scale down the level as desired, but both classes can have very strongly nature-themed class features. And of course the wu jen spell arboreal transformation would be awesome for them to have (it turns enemies that fail their saves into treants that serve you).

[Bronk]

You could use a tree shaped druid.

You could use a person somehow PAOed or wished into a tree, then talk to them with 'speak with plants'.

You could have the tree person be cursed into tree form, and spoken to with 'speak with plants'.

The person in tree form, whoever they may be, could also be psionic and be able to talk to people nearby like Justin Tree from Xanth.

The person in tree form, whoever they may be, could also be druidic, and be able to talk to animals and plants all around them, possibly using them as spies and having an entire second kingdom, like the Black Hands encountered in Knights of the Dinner Table.

It could be a tree you decide is smarter and more noble than other trees because of its age, its looks, or maybe it's from a Celestial or Lawful plane (or both).

It could secretly (or not so secretly) be a dryad tree.

It could be any one of a number of evil intelligent trees from the various monster manuals and books, but happens to have the cold subtype for easier burning.

You could awaken it, but have it be a tiny tree, like a ficus (for added irony). Hit dice of trees is a factor of size, so this one would be very easy to burn down, even if it moves around a bit. Mental stats wouldn't be affected. In fact, this might be the only way to burn down an awakened tree, because they get quite a bit of hardness the bigger they get. You could probably stand to give it a few druid levels so it could talk to other plants again, and animals too.

[ExLibrisMortis]

In your best judgement, would a plant ruling a country need to be Awakened in order to do a sufficient job? Or is it possible a normal tree could do just as well?
Regular trees lack wisdom and charisma scores, therefore they cannot percieve the environment and do not have a sense of self and others. In other words, the tree has no idea of 'judgement', 'country' or 'job', and arguably no idea of any of the other words in any of the sentences presented on this forum or elsewhere. That tends to get in the way of government, really.

[Bronk]

Regular trees lack wisdom and charisma scores, therefore they cannot percieve the environment and do not have a sense of self and others. In other words, the tree has no idea of 'judgement', 'country' or 'job', and arguably no idea of any of the other words in any of the sentences presented on this forum or elsewhere. That tends to get in the way of government, really.

The spell 'speak with plants' implies that they do perceive their environment though.

I really wish these spells had more details. You can use the spell to communicate with normal plants, which is great, but nothing is said about how good the answers you get are, or how good the conversation is. It mentions that dumb plant creatures will give you dumb answers, but not normal plants. It also doesn't say plants can normally talk to each other.

Would a clump of grass give more inane answers than a tree? What if the grass is in hell or in the heavens? What if a cow already ate half of it?

The 'speak with animals' spell has the same problem, since you can now talk to an animal, and says that the more stupid animals give stupider answers, but all animals only have INT 1 or 2 to begin with!

There's a feat called Mark of Vermin that lets you use 'speak with animals' on vermin... that at least says that it sets their verminy little minds to INT 2 while your're dealing with them.

[Telok]

I think the confusion over the Con score comes from how people read the bit where it says the tree is statted as an animated object but with the plant type. I've always read that part as taking the animated object and changing it from a construct typed creature to a plant typed creature. Complete with the hit die, save, immunities, and other changes which include it having a Con score because it's alive and plant typed creatures have Con scores. The way other people seem to read it is that you take the animated object, write in plant instead of construct for the type, and don't change the creature's abilities or immunities. Which is not how I understand the rules for changing creature types to work.

[goto124]

Using the world leaders of the Earth as a model, I'd say a regular tree would do just fine.

Ahahahahahahaha :D

[Ephemeral_Being]

The spell 'speak with plants' implies that they do perceive their environment though.

I really wish these spells had more details. You can use the spell to communicate with normal plants, which is great, but nothing is said about how good the answers you get are, or how good the conversation is. It mentions that dumb plant creatures will give you dumb answers, but not normal plants. It also doesn't say plants can normally talk to each other.

Would a clump of grass give more inane answers than a tree? What if the grass is in hell or in the heavens? What if a cow already ate half of it?

The 'speak with animals' spell has the same problem, since you can now talk to an animal, and says that the more stupid animals give stupider answers, but all animals only have INT 1 or 2 to begin with!

There's a feat called Mark of Vermin that lets you use 'speak with animals' on vermin... that at least says that it sets their verminy little minds to INT 2 while your're dealing with them.

Right? I've spent nearly a week reading books looking for a better description of how the spells work. Not in the spell description, but in the descriptions for classes and regions. The "fluff" material, I think it's called? And it's just not there.

What I've been assuming is that plants have Blindsense-15 ft, using the roots to increase the area it can sense. I know I heard (I think on Mythbusters?) that plants grow larger when they "hear" more noise. They would be able to tell day/night, because plants have circadian rhythms. As well as seasons, and patterns of rainfall due to patterns of growth. But how well they could process and communicate that information, I don't precisely know.

Hence my asking about a plant's mental capabilities. It makes for a fun game, trying to figure out how the world works, and how that combines with magic. And, it makes for a good conversation topic. I mean, in what other context is "How would you describe the personality of a tomato" a valid question?

Mind if I ask where Mark of the Vermin is from? I'll poke around that book, see if I can find some more info on what they can or can't tell you.

And, to the guy who had the idea to awaken a ficus? I love it. I may just steal that idea. That's funnier than a massive tree. Bonsai trees have lived for what? 700+ years? That's enough to justify making them the ruler.

[Flickerdart]

In regards to a plant's senses, I'd say it can know the following:

Events concerning the tree itself: A tree will know that its flowers have bloomed, or its fruit has fallen, or a branch has been chopped off, or a fire had burned. It has no way of knowing the source of this event - was it a forest fire, or an errant fireball? To a tree, things simply happen.
Time: A tree will tell you if an event happened in the day or the night, and the season, but nothing in between, since it doesn't know what a "week" is and has no concept of mathematics to count day-night cycles. A tree will know about years (because of tree rings) however.
Recurring entities: A tree will know if a bird or a squirrel or something has nested on it for a very long period of time. Let's say at least one season - so if a bird has been raising its chicks in the tree, it'll know.
Sounds: A tree will remember prolonged sounds, such as an army marching by for hours, or the rush of a stream.


A caster will need to ask the correct questions, or a tree won't be very useful as a source of information.

[Bronk]

Right? I've spent nearly a week reading books looking for a better description of how the spells work. Not in the spell description, but in the descriptions for classes and regions. The "fluff" material, I think it's called? And it's just not there.

I've never found anything either, and I've never seen a thread where anyone has. Maybe there's something in a novel somewhere, but druids in DnD novels are few and far between. The only ones I even remember are Pikel from some of the Salvatore novels and the Moonshae Isle trilogy, and neither of those were very good depictions of PC type druids (of any edition).


What I've been assuming is that plants have Blindsense-15 ft, using the roots to increase the area it can sense. I know I heard (I think on Mythbusters?) that plants grow larger when they "hear" more noise. They would be able to tell day/night, because plants have circadian rhythms. As well as seasons, and patterns of rainfall due to patterns of growth. But how well they could process and communicate that information, I don't precisely know.

Hence my asking about a plant's mental capabilities. It makes for a fun game, trying to figure out how the world works, and how that combines with magic. And, it makes for a good conversation topic. I mean, in what other context is "How would you describe the personality of a tomato" a valid question?

It doesn't make much sense, but the spell doesn't say they don't have vision. I just go with it, and have them be bad at telling individual two legged beings apart. I have trees be more like people, with old ones being wiser, and something like grass being like drunks at a party... really flighty and incoherent. I've also had plants on or from other planes reflect the plane they're on.


Mind if I ask where Mark of the Vermin is from? I'll poke around that book, see if I can find some more info on what they can or can't tell you.

Looks like it's from the Eberron book 'Dragonmarked', page 143.


And, to the guy who had the idea to awaken a ficus? I love it. I may just steal that idea. That's funnier than a massive tree. Bonsai trees have lived for what? 700+ years? That's enough to justify making them the ruler.

Thanks! Subvert those tropes! Also, the Ficus thing was from a joke run for office a while back.

[Coidzor]

So why aren't you considering just having a unique creature or magical plant?

[Flickerdart]

The real question is, do awakened cacti suffer from the hedgehog dilemma?

[Ephemeral_Being]

So why aren't you considering just having a unique creature or magical plant?

Ah! Because the rules for our game prevent me from homebrewing anything. Stemming from an incident in which I provided them with fireworks from a 3rd party book, and they proceeded to ignore any and all class abilities (and plot) for about six sessions, during which the game devolved into throwing/launching explosives at the enemy, and their quest to obtain more (and larger) fireworks. Which led to soldiers arming themselves with fireworks to combat them. And finally culminating with the entire party dying in a collapsing house, surrounded by exploding and burning wreckage.

I wish I was making this up. But it was my first campaign, and I had no idea what I was doing. And, I mean. It was stupidly funny. But it wasn't really "DnD." You don't rig the rafters of a church with 200 fireworks on time-delayed fuses in a medieval fantasy game and crush everyone with rubble.

So we have a rule now. No homebrew, and no third party material. Primary source material ONLY. And everything has to be explainable/sourced within a five minute window if they (or I) challenge its existence. No house rules to speak of, and no DM fiat allowed.

So. If I'm making a plant NPC, it has to follow all the rules associated with being a plant. It might seem strict to you, but we like the structure. I play with engineers and lawyers. Half the fun (to us) is finding loopholes in the rules to make your crazy plan work. But when you start bending those rules, changing them to suit you, that all falls apart. Same reason I refuse to fudge dice rolls. We all have to play by the same rules.

[Flickerdart]

You don't rig the rafters of a church with 200 fireworks on time-delayed fuses in a medieval fantasy game and crush everyone with rubble.
"For tis the sport to haue the enginer / Hoist with his owne petar."
--Hamlet (III.iv.207)

[Coidzor]

Ephemeral_Being: That is... unfortunate. Also, amusing.


The real question is, do awakened cacti suffer from the hedgehog dilemma?

Well it's not like their stamen and pistils have spines. :smallconfused:

[elvengunner69]

Ah! Because the rules for our game prevent me from homebrewing anything. Stemming from an incident in which I provided them with fireworks from a 3rd party book, and they proceeded to ignore any and all class abilities (and plot) for about six sessions, during which the game devolved into throwing/launching explosives at the enemy, and their quest to obtain more (and larger) fireworks. Which led to soldiers arming themselves with fireworks to combat them. And finally culminating with the entire party dying in a collapsing house, surrounded by exploding and burning wreckage.

I wish I was making this up. But it was my first campaign, and I had no idea what I was doing. And, I mean. It was stupidly funny. But it wasn't really "DnD." You don't rig the rafters of a church with 200 fireworks on time-delayed fuses in a medieval fantasy game and crush everyone with rubble.

So we have a rule now. No homebrew, and no third party material. Primary source material ONLY. And everything has to be explainable/sourced within a five minute window if they (or I) challenge its existence. No house rules to speak of, and no DM fiat allowed.

So. If I'm making a plant NPC, it has to follow all the rules associated with being a plant. It might seem strict to you, but we like the structure. I play with engineers and lawyers. Half the fun (to us) is finding loopholes in the rules to make your crazy plan work. But when you start bending those rules, changing them to suit you, that all falls apart. Same reason I refuse to fudge dice rolls. We all have to play by the same rules.

I'm just curious since you can't homebrew why not just use a Treant? You could advance one pretty easily to make it more of a challenge (class levels, templates, etc) and not have to worry so much about a tree being awakend? Unless I'm missing something you said earlier? Interesting idea regardless.

[Ephemeral_Being]

I'm just curious since you can't homebrew why not just use a Treant? You could advance one pretty easily to make it more of a challenge (class levels, templates, etc) and not have to worry so much about a tree being awakend? Unless I'm missing something you said earlier? Interesting idea regardless.

Honestly? I forgot they existed when I started. And now I'm enraptured by the idea of an actual tree ruling over humans. Not a magical creature, but a tree.

I could probably use the Treant as a guide for its feats, though. That's a really good idea. Thanks.

[Maglubiyet]

now I'm enraptured by the idea of an actual tree ruling over humans. Not a magical creature, but a tree.

It's definitely a cool idea. Post the stats when you're done. Are you planning on giving it any templates?

[LordErebus12]

Eberron has a sentient greatpine tree, the grand druid Oalian. He acts as a moral leader for the new Eldeen Reaches through the Wardens of the Wood.

[Ephemeral_Being]

It's definitely a cool idea. Post the stats when you're done. Are you planning on giving it any templates?

I'm not sure what templates even fit. I found Ghost, so far. That is the only acquired template that I can find which can be applied to Plants. Which, I guess, you could use as a springboard for more templates. But I wanted it to be alive. So I think I'm skipping them.

I'm putting together a few stat blocks for Awakened plants of various sizes. Some with class levels, some without. I'll absolutely post a couple, if there's interest. I'm doing a tomato vine, bonsai tree, and probably a giant willow right now. If you had any other suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

[Maglubiyet]

I'm not sure what templates even fit.

These can be added to Plants:

Anarchic Creature
Axiomatic Creature
Celestrial Creature
Fiendish Creature
Pseudonatural
Air Elemental Creature
Cold Elemental Creature
Earth Elemental Creature
Fire Elemental Creature
Wood Elemental Creature


There may be more.

[Kraken]

If you're willing to go in this direction, the saint template from the Book of Exalted Deeds could be applied.

[Coidzor]

Plants can be Mineral Warriors, IIRC, but that makes 'em Stony.

[endur]

As a thought experiment, I decided to create a province ruled by a sentient tree. Think the Swamp, in Avatar: The Last Airbender. But slapped with an Awaken spell. Logically, it actually makes a lot of sense. Trees live longer than people do. Thousands of years. They can have memory of events from ages long past. And the way Awakened is worded, the Awakened creature would be friendly to its creator. Making it a benevolent ruler. Anyway. The logic, and the lore behind that logic I'm set on. It's the specifics of how Awaken works that I need clarification with.

I wouldn't use the awakened spell description, instead I'd use one of the Monster Manual awakened tree creatures that already exist. i.e. A Treant, or something similar. If you didn't want it to move, I'd just have this Treant be a stationary Treant. You can easily level the Treant with cleric levels or anything else you desire.

This way you have all the stats for the Treant and don't have worry about figuring out what stats an awakened tree has.

[Allanimal]

I wouldn't use the awakened spell description, instead I'd use one of the Monster Manual awakened tree creatures that already exist. i.e. A Treant, or something similar. If you didn't want it to move, I'd just have this Treant be a stationary Treant. You can easily level the Treant with cleric levels or anything else you desire.

This way you have all the stats for the Treant and don't have worry about figuring out what stats an awakened tree has.

If you go this route, may I suggest an Ironmaw from Fiend Folio? It is an intelligent, evil tree creature.

[atemu1234]

If you're willing to go in this direction, the saint template from the Book of Exalted Deeds could be applied.

My tree is a SAINT!

Also, Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Passion). It overcomes the Con issue.

Also, tree and elf... does not compute...

[Coidzor]

My tree is a SAINT!

Also, Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Passion). It overcomes the Con issue.

Also, tree and elf... does not compute...

I guess Elves aren't just tree huggers anymore.

[Urpriest]

I wouldn't use the awakened spell description, instead I'd use one of the Monster Manual awakened tree creatures that already exist. i.e. A Treant, or something similar. If you didn't want it to move, I'd just have this Treant be a stationary Treant. You can easily level the Treant with cleric levels or anything else you desire.

This way you have all the stats for the Treant and don't have worry about figuring out what stats an awakened tree has.

...why, though? Making it an awakened tree is more fun, considering that statting up complex NPCs and monsters is the only way the DM has to take part in the most fun part of 3.5, i.e. character building. There's a lot of fluff precedent, and it allows for a much more alien mindset than most tree monsters.

For templates, there aren't a lot of acquired templates that don't make someone undead to begin with. Oddly enough, Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) allows any corporeal creature except for undead, constructs and elementals. It also might be fun fluffwise: a tree that's uniquely in-tune with the earth beneath it. Saint might be a good option, it makes you an Outsider(Native), which might allow access to other interesting templates. There are a couple more applicable templates in Dragon Magazine, but I suspect your "no third-party" rule also includes them.

Edit: Ninja'd on Saint.

[Bronk]

You could awaken a tree from the Dream Energy Plane and have the awakened tree be a Dream Element Creature (Dragon Magazine 287 p34), ruling its kingdom while its subjects sleep!