A Balor, Solar, and Pit Fiend walk into a bar...

[LoyalPaladin]

So this is a question I've never had answered before. If Celestia, Baator, and the Abyss threw down by sending their top "monster" into a fight, whose beastie would come out on top?

It looks like Balors, Solars, and Pit Fiends are the big boys of the realms. Maybe I am wrong? Please correct me if I am. If you had "tickets" to this show, who would you place your bets on? I'd probably say Pit Fiends are hopelessly outmatched, but it's a bit of a toss up between a Solar and Balor for me.

Granted, I'd always put my money on the forces of good.

[With a box]

Spells

Solars can cast divine spells as 20th-level clerics. A solar has access to two of the following domains: Air, Destruction, Good, Law, or War (plus any others from its deity). The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

and Balor doesn't have spellcasting
/thread

[defiantdan]

what do you consider a monster? because many of the gods have been stated out. There are also the aspects. You only mentioned creatures in the MM.

[DeltaEmil]

Solars are the big boys/gals of the FORCES OF GOOD!!! And would win simply by virtue of having three wishes as spell-like abilities a day they can use without having to offer it to anybody else.

But they don't operate on the same lowly (pun intended) level as pit fiends and balors. Angels don't have really fiendish counterparts. Angels serve as the direct servants of the good-aligned deities, which is why they're so much stronger than fiends, who just occasionally happen to be servant of evil-aligned deities.

The counterparts to the devils are the archons (lawful good outsider race), the demons have a chaotic good counterpart in the eladrin race, and the neutral evil yugoloth/daemons are technically opposed by the neutral good guardinals.

It would be "more fair" if the pit fiend, balor, and ultroloth were opposed by throne archons (Book of Exalted Deeds), tulani eladrin (also Book of Exalted Deeds), and Leonals (Monster Manual 1).

[XionUnborn01]

Solars are the big boys/gals of the FORCES OF GOOD!!! And would win simply by virtue of having three wishes as spell-like abilities a day they can use without having to offer it to anybody else.

But they don't operate on the same lowly (pun intended) level as pit fiends and balors. Angels don't have really fiendish counterparts. Angels serve as the direct servants of the good-aligned deities, which is why they're so much stronger than fiends, who just occasionally happen to be servant of evil-aligned deities.

The counterparts to the devils are the archons (lawful good outsider race), the demons have a chaotic good counterpart in the eladrin race, and the neutral evil yugoloth/daemons are technically opposed by the neutral good guardinals.

It would be "more fair" if the pit fiend, balor, and ultroloth were opposed by throne archons (Book of Exalted Deeds), tulani eladrin (also Book of Exalted Deeds), and Leonals (Monster Manual 1).


That would be much better of a fight probably, because I can't see a way the Solar could lose. Even if the Fiend and Balor tag teamed it, that casting would just be brutal.

[Eldan]

The solar doesn't belong on that list. It isn't an exemplar, it's an angel. Only a few of them are from Celestia, too. Instead, you'd have to send a Throne Archon.

I'd also throw in an Ultroloth, Secundus, Leonal, Tulani, death slaad and Aurumach, so you can have the nine races covered.

[Frostthehero]

I could even see sending a trumpet archon and winning. I played in an epic campaign where I played one, and the 14th level cleric casting allowed me to singlehandedly defeat Juiblex. He couldn't fly, which made it significantly easier, but even so, I would place my money on the archons every time.

[DeltaEmil]

The solar doesn't belong on that list. It isn't an exemplar, it's an angel. Only a few of them are from Celestia, too. Instead, you'd have to send a Throne Archon.

I'd also throw in an Ultroloth, Secundus, Leonal, Tulani, death slaad and Aurumach, so you can have the nine races covered.As per some Dragon Magazine issue (or was it Dungeon? I could never differentiate the two), the current exemplars of Law are the Inevitables while the Modrons and Formians are duking it out about who will be the dominant race of Mechanus.

[Eldan]

Psh. Inevitables. Latecomers, those. There's not enough for them, there's no proper hierarchy, they have no unique leaders that have ever been detailed as far as I can tell and they aren't outsiders, so they can't be proper exemplars. They are tools, at best.

But yeah. Giving the goodies proper spellcasting and only some spell-likes to the baddies was a bad decision. Opens them up to a whole mess of optimization and open-ended power with all those splatbook spells.

[weckar]

I think the Lawful Good representatives have one significant disadvantage that is not at all mechanical: They have to play fair.

[DeltaEmil]

Modrons have been turned into living constructs for 3.5. Only the formians are outsiders, and surely we don't want to see a bunch of wannabe-zerg (You must spawn more formian overlords observers!) winning the title of exemplars of law just because of that little technicality now, do we?

[Tindragon]

I think the Lawful Good representatives have one significant disadvantage that is not at all mechanical: They have to play fair.

Fair against a Paladin, gives them an advantage. When fighting Demons or Devils, all 'fairness' is out the window. No holds barred, time to eradicate evil (so long as it doesn't outright kill great numbers of innocents).

[Eldan]

Fair against a Paladin, gives them an advantage. When fighting Demons or Devils, all 'fairness' is out the window. No holds barred, time to eradicate evil (so long as it doesn't outright kill great numbers of innocents).

Except for, you know, all the contracts and diplomacy they have with Hell and seem to mostly keep.

[ben-zayb]

I think the Lawful Good representatives have one significant disadvantage that is not at all mechanical: They have to play fair.

Welll...they already have spellcasting, so any sense of "fairness" was outside the gates of heaven to begin with.

[DeltaEmil]

Funnily enough, the throne archon, the tulani eladrin, and the leonal guardinal have no spellcasting. Only spell-like abilities. Trumpet archons, ghaele eladrins, and ursinal guardinals, despite each being lower-ranked than the theoretically most powerful exemplars of their race, have access to spellcasting.

Somebody's got to keep the back of the big guys, after all.

[atemu1234]

and Balor doesn't have spellcasting
/thread

Combine that with good saving throws, a not-that-bad d8 hit die, and some optimization, and you have checkmate.

[Werephilosopher]

I'd also throw in an Ultroloth, Secundus, Leonal, Tulani, death slaad and Aurumach, so you can have the nine races covered.

...and then a Kalaraq comes and mops the floor with all of them, winning this one for the quori. :smallamused:

[Mando Knight]

I think the Lawful Good representatives have one significant disadvantage that is not at all mechanical: They have to play fair.

Define "fair" in a no-holds-barred brawl.

If Lawful Good is held back by "playing fair" then Chaotic Evil is held back by being undisciplined brutes instead of highly-efficient trained warriors.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think the Lawful Good representatives have one significant disadvantage that is not at all mechanical: They have to play fair.

Well first off, I don't know what this thing called fairness is. I literally don't know how one can reasonably define such a thing.

Second, remember that when you fight a Solar, there's no reason it hasn't used miracle to Planar Bind an incredible number of monsters to help it in the fight. It can literally have a Balor and a Pit Fiend fighting for it in its fight against the Balor and the Pit Fiend.

[Maglubiyet]

One on one, the Solars. But the Abyss has raw numbers -- they could just zerg the field.

[DeltaEmil]

But the Abyss has raw numbers -- they could just zerg the field.The tanar'ri demons have been trying this "tactic" against the baatezu devils, and have been failing at it for millennia.

[Sian]

The tanar'ri demons have been trying this "tactic" against the baatezu devils, and have been failing at it for millennia.

they just don't have enough zerglings to throw at the problem ... it'll be fixed by getting more

[Troacctid]

Personally, all I can think of are punchlines for that thread title.

...and the pit fiend says "Ow!" because the bar is made of consecrated silver. The others take no damage.

...and the bartender says, "What is this, some kind of joke?" Then the balor disembowels him.

[georgie_leech]

they just don't have enough zerglings to throw at the problem ... it'll be fixed by getting more

Tsk, the Zerg Rush refers to massed cheap units that are thrown en masse before the other side can adequately prepare its defences. If the opposing side is properly fortified, manned, and equipped, the Zerg need tactics as much as anyone else. At this point, it's unreasonable to expect Zerg Rushing the Devils to have much long-term impact.

[Eldan]

they just don't have enough zerglings to throw at the problem ... it'll be fixed by getting more

It's difficult to have more than infinite zerglings.

[Sian]

It's difficult to have more than infinite zerglings.

there is infinitely many zerglings yes, but also infinitely many sides in the internal civil war they got going on

[atemu1234]

there is infinitely many zerglings yes, but also infinitely many sides in the internal civil war they got going on

Of course. So we need an organized disorganized assault? From creatures born of chaos?

[Killer Angel]

The premise is fallacious.
If they walk into a bar, it's probably Sigil, and so they are not going to fight. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

The premise is fallacious.
If they walk into a bar, it's probably Sigil, and so they are not going to fight. :smalltongue:

If they do... I think we all know who wins.

[LoyalPaladin]

Wow! This thread exploded! There was a lot of good stuff said. Now to take this to my group and share! We've chatted about this for some time now. Also, where is this Sigil place? If its somewhere a Solar and Balor can share ale without problems, I'm writing a campaign set there.

[Maglubiyet]

Wow! This thread exploded! There was a lot of good stuff said. Now to take this to my group and share! We've chatted about this for some time now. Also, where is this Sigil place? If its somewhere a Solar and Balor can share ale without problems, I'm writing a campaign set there.

Planescape campaign setting from 2e. Very cool sourcebooks for it. It's known as the Cage and it's where demons, devils, and solars can literally sit down in a bar with each other.

[Chronos]

Heck, even without its 20th-level spellcasting, just the list of at-will SLAs a solar gets is quite formidable. I mean, Summon Monster VII? Imprisonment? Animate Objects?

[DeltaEmil]

3.5 information about Sigil can also be found in Planar Handbook (together with the City of Brass, and Tu'Narath).

[Deadline]

The premise is fallacious.
If they walk into a bar, it's probably Sigil, and so they are not going to fight. :smalltongue:

Indeed, everyone knows that the proprietor of the Styx Oarsman doesn't abide that in his establishment (well, it's mostly a fiend bar, so maybe he tolerates it a little). And the exemplars had best keep their wars the Hells out of Sigil, lest the Lady decide to settle the matter.

Also, Planescape is awesome.

[LoyalPaladin]

That is super cool. Definitely going to plan a future campaign that takes place there.

[Doctor Awkward]

Meh.


It depends a lot on who wins rocket tag (Pit fiend at +12, Balor at +11, and Solar at +9), how the dice fall after that, and who goes after who.

The Balor might not have spells, but he does have Implosion as a 1/day SLA. He also has the best Fortitude save of the bunch at +22 (vs the Solar's save DC of 26). If the Solar and the Balor both go before the Pit Fiend and open with that, they get one chance to eliminate someone else before the Pit Fiend hits them both with a no-save Daze from Blasphemy, ending the effect.

If there's a buff round then everyone gets holy/unholy aura and saves go up and **** probably gets real.


If everyone lives through the save or dies, the Solar probably wins by attrition. Not just because he has cleric casting, but also because he only takes real damage from epic and evil weapons and evil spells, something which the other two are not capable of. Yes, the Pit Fiend gets once per year Wish, but the Solar gets that once per day, and also has cleric Miracle.

[Eldan]

Planescape campaign setting from 2e. Very cool sourcebooks for it. It's known as the Cage and it's where demons, devils, and solars can literally sit down in a bar with each other.

Solars might get difficult. They are representatives for deities, unlike the fiends, and proxies and so on tend to be kicked out.

[DeltaEmil]

It depends a lot on who wins rocket tag (Pit fiend at +12, Balor at +11, and Solar at +9), how the dice fall after that, and who goes after who.

The Balor might not have spells, but he does have Implosion as a 1/day SLA. He also has the best Fortitude save of the bunch at +22 (vs the Solar's save DC of 26). If the Solar and the Balor both go before the Pit Fiend and open with that, they get one chance to eliminate someone else before the Pit Fiend hits them both with a no-save Daze from Blasphemy, ending the effect.The solar has a +4 resistance bonus by virtue of its protective aura supernatural ability (sorta like an always active holy aura, but a little bit more restricted), so its saves are overall the best especially if it's duking it out with evil creatures like the balor and the pit fiend (it equals the balor's fortitude save). The pit fiend's blasphemy can affect neither the solar nor the balor. The balor is an evil creature, and the solar has too many HD (and the balor's blasphemy is equally worthless for the same reasons, despite having a higher caster level). The pit fiend must hope to be able to affect the balor and the solar with its fear aura (and then teleport out of here as long as that nasty solar is around - the balor's easy to take out, even if it takes some time), the balor must hope its implosion can take out the pit fiend and the solar (it has no other way to reliably harm these two regenerating beings), and the solar just has to survive the balor's implosion to practically be considered the default winner of this skirmish.

[SimonMoon6]

It's difficult to have more than infinite zerglings.

There are different sizes of infinity.

You could have a "countably infinite" (aleph-null) number of minions when you really need an uncountable infinite number.

[ExLibrisMortis]

the solar just has to survive the balor's implosion to practically be considered the default winner of this skirmish.
Continuing this...

The solar has +4 on saves vs. evil creatures, from Protective Aura. That means a total of +22 vs. the balor's DC 27 Implosion, which is at CL 20 and therefore overcomes a solar's 32 SR only 45% of the time. That gives the balor a total of .20* .45 = 9% chance of killing the solar outright. Having +11 initiative versus the solar's +9, the chance of an instant victory is a lousy .6 * .09 = 5.4% (I hope I got my statistics right here).

That's assuming the solar has no time to buff up, and that the balor does not get a chance to use Implosion if the solar goes first. Implosion doesn't exactly have a long range (75'), so there's every chance the solar sees the balor coming.

Edit: Thanks Atemu for catching that typo.

[Eldan]

There are different sizes of infinity.

You could have a "countably infinite" (aleph-null) number of minions when you really need an uncountable infinite number.

Yeah, we had an interesting discussion once how both devils and demons were infinite, but there were still more demons than devils. So we agreed that the ordered devils were a countable infinite, while the demons were at least aleph one.

[LoyalPaladin]

The solar has +4 on saves vs. evil creatures, from Protective Aura. That means a total of +22 vs. the balor's DC 27 Implosion, which is at CL 20 and therefore overcomes a solar's 32 SR only 45% of the time. That gives the balor a total of .20* .45 = 9% chance of killing the solar outright. Having +11 initiative versus the solar's +9, the chance of an instant victory is a lousy .6 * .9 = 5.4% (I hope I got my statistics right here).
You see! This is why I spend so much time on this site! I love this place.

Maybe I'll set up another thread later on about Torm vs Asmodeus. We shall see if craftiness can overcome a full blown deity.

[atemu1234]

Continuing this...

The solar has +4 on saves vs. evil creatures, from Protective Aura. That means a total of +22 vs. the balor's DC 27 Implosion, which is at CL 20 and therefore overcomes a solar's 32 SR only 45% of the time. That gives the balor a total of .20* .45 = 9% chance of killing the solar outright. Having +11 initiative versus the solar's +9, the chance of an instant victory is a lousy .6 * .9 = 5.4% (I hope I got my statistics right here).

That's assuming the solar has no time to buff up, and that the balor does not get a chance to use Implosion if the solar goes first. Implosion doesn't exactly have a long range (75'), so there's every chance the solar sees the balor coming.

Almost. 9% is.09.

[Eldan]

You see! This is why I spend so much time on this site! I love this place.

Maybe I'll set up another thread later on about Torm vs Asmodeus. We shall see if craftiness can overcome a full blown deity.

Not really. Deities have this most annoying of abilities. They know weeks ahead when something big happens, in detail. An attempt on Torm's life is probably in his portfolio. So, any plan... he knows about.

[LoyalPaladin]

Not really. Deities have this most annoying of abilities. They know weeks ahead when something big happens, in detail. An attempt on Torm's life is probably in his portfolio. So, any plan... he knows about.
I wouldn't think so. But isn't Asmodeus a minor deity or something now?

[Eldan]

No, just an arch-exemplar. At least before 4th, where for some incomprehensible reason, he gave up his own power and became a god.

[DeltaEmil]

No, just an arch-exemplar. At least before 4th, where for some incomprehensible reason, he gave up his own power and became a god.That's because implied 4e default setting (PoLand/the world of the Nentir Vale) Asmodeus is a god, so 4e Forgotten Realms-Asmodeus also became a god, so that there would be as few differences between the implied core setting and the Forgotten Realms as possible (the same reason they retconned some Forgotten Realms-deities into having been primordials all along, because primordials exist in PoLand, and the Forgotten Realms must always mirror the implied default setting of the current edition as close as possible - 5e got rid of this tactic by making the Forgotten Realms now the default core setting of 5e).

[Chronos]

5e got rid of this tactic by making the Forgotten Realms now the default core setting of 5e
Mostly, 5e just doesn't have a default setting. But to the extent that it does, it's still Oerth: There are still "standard" spells named after Mordenkainen, Otiluke, Tenser, and so on, but none named after Faerunian wizards.

And you can't have an uncountable number of demons unless there are either an uncountable number of layers of the Abyss, or demons can be arbitrarily small. If the layers of the Abyss are countable, and there is a smallest demon, then one can enumerate all demons.

[Eldan]

The joke was that whenever you tried to put the demons in a row and count them, they'd run off or kill each other, so you'd have to start at the beginning again. Hence, uncountable. :smalltongue:

[Lightlawbliss]

The joke was that whenever you tried to put the demons in a row and count them, they'd run off or kill each other, so you'd have to start at the beginning again. Hence, uncountable. :smalltongue:

sum from -infinity to infinity of (x!^(x!^(x!^(x!^(x!^...

[Vrock_Summoner]

Mostly, 5e just doesn't have a default setting. But to the extent that it does, it's still Oerth: There are still "standard" spells named after Mordenkainen, Otiluke, Tenser, and so on, but none named after Faerunian wizards.

And you can't have an uncountable number of demons unless there are either an uncountable number of layers of the Abyss, or demons can be arbitrarily small. If the layers of the Abyss are countable, and there is a smallest demon, then one can enumerate all demons.

Actually, it's just that the individual layers of the Abyss themselves are arbitrarily large... It doesn't matter what number you put as x or what units of measure you're using (as long as they aren't negative... I don't think negative measurements exist, but I can't wrap my head around half of the stuff that goes on in math, so if 'negative feet' is a thing I won't even be surprised), "x<Abyss size" will always be true.

[Sian]

(as long as they aren't negative... I don't think negative measurements exist, but I can't wrap my head around half of the stuff that goes on in math, so if 'negative feet' is a thing I won't even be surprised),

Even if it were, Negative feet wouldn't, as its not a SI unit, hence only used by non-scientificly inclined Americans/Brits/Burmese/Liberians

[Chronos]

Sure, all of the layers of the Abyss are infinite, but that's not what we're talking about. The entire Abyss is still countably infinite, which is smaller in a very fundamental way than uncountably infinite.

[Eloel]

Sure, all of the layers of the Abyss are infinite, but that's not what we're talking about. The entire Abyss is still countably infinite, which is smaller in a very fundamental way than uncountably infinite.

Exactly. A 3D space can at most be countably infinite in cubic feet, because you can enumerate all cubes. If there are a countably infinite layers of Abyss, that makes the number of demons you can fit in Abyss countable. Even if a new demon spawns every x seconds, where x > epsilon.

Edit: This is just a more general explanation to what you have said, I'm not disagreeing with you.