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Blackhawk748
2015-03-10, 07:09 PM
Ok, ive noticed a disturbing trend with my BBEGs, they have a tendency to be "sledgehammers". You know, fairly simple plans and if it doesnt work the first way, the backup plan is hit it again, harder. Now theres really nothing wrong with this, after all simple is wonderful, but my PCs, i feel, are getting complacent. Weather consciously or unconsciously, they know my BBEG is probably leading an army and probably based in a huge castle, and they know they just need to pound through waves of minions to get to him. Again, nothing wrong with this.

Except i feel its getting to easy for them. Yes i could optimize or use Tuckers Kobolds, but that doesnt really change the basic fact that they expect to fight an army. So i want to spin this all on its head. I want them to fight a BBEG who is Thrawn mixed with Dr Doom, i want him to be so far under the radar that they're not even sure that there is a BBEG. I want this to be a Shadow War, a war fought against triple agents and people in cover so deep that they dont even know they're in cover anymore. In short my goal is to make a puppet master, a man behind so many screens with so many doubles that they cant be sure they got him.

Now this is all well and good as a plan and in theory, but i have absolutely no experience running a campaign like this, so the help of all the crazy masterminds in the Playground would be appreciated.

(Un)Inspired
2015-03-10, 07:42 PM
Just do exactly what you tend to do with you sledgehammer villains except that when the party eventually kills him it turns out he was being mind controlled by an even greater villain.

atemu1234
2015-03-10, 08:11 PM
Just do exactly what you tend to do with you sledgehammer villains except that when the party eventually kills him it turns out he was being mind controlled by an even greater villain.

Who in turn was Charmed by the Princess who the former sledgehammer kidnapped. WHO WAS IN TURN COMMANDED BY THE KING WHO HIRED THE PARTY TO DO SO. Why do it halfway?

Blackhawk748
2015-03-10, 08:14 PM
Who in turn was Charmed by the Princess who the former sledgehammer kidnapped. WHO WAS IN TURN COMMANDED BY THE KING WHO HIRED THE PARTY TO DO SO. Why do it halfway?

A buddy pretty much recommended this and i laughed just as hard then.

Honestly im gonna use the "its a freaking body double" a few times, i just feel i need some more stuff to work with.

(Un)Inspired
2015-03-10, 08:21 PM
A buddy pretty much recommended this and i laughed just as hard then.

Honestly im gonna use the "its a freaking body double" a few times, i just feel i need some more stuff to work with.

I'd also go with identical twin brothers for ever villain they prematurely kill.

tiercel
2015-03-11, 01:10 AM
Depending on how well you know your players, have one of your PCs actually be/become the campaign's BBEG. (Or even just be replaced by a doppelganger/shapeshifted BBEG/BBEG's mindslave for a time.)

Make sure your player group won't implode if you crank up PvP paranoia and/or have a big reveal in this fashion.

This kind of shenanigans aside, the classic is for the PCs to be the (presumably unwitting) primary minions of the BBEG. If your Primary Questgiving Trusted Advisor Person is the one handing out all the tasks... selling the PCs all their gear... aware of all the PC's abilities and weaknesses... and using them to retrieve his McGuffins and eliminate his rivals, he's got the world on a string.

For maximal effectiveness, most of the other Trusted Vizier positions in the campaign should be filled by actual trustworthy, helpful souls of varying effectiveness, with at least one glaring exception (other than your BBEG) to act as a convenient distraction. Said person should, of course, be under the BBEG's control and untouchable for political reasons. Since PCs like to ignore "untouchable" restrictions, this will allow your BBEG to legitimately arrange to have the forces of Law and Good sicced on your party. Enjoy.

AvatarVecna
2015-03-11, 02:02 AM
Make the BBEG a Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm). Thrallherds have a nifty class feature called "Thrallherd" that works kind of like a blend of Leadership and Psionic Dominate Monster:

By Raw, the "Thrallherd" class feature:
Grants one or two thralls (depending on their level) and up to a few hundred believers; the first thrall can be up to (Thrallherd's ECL-1) ECL, the second thrall can be up to (Thrallherd's ECL-2) ECL, and the followers as a whole have a maximum ECL of 6 (although only a couple can reach that level).
Does not offer a save to resist and ignores Spell/Power Resistance.
Is not Mind-Affecting, so it can affect those immune to Mind-Affecting effects.
Replaces any "lost" thralls/believers within 24 hours.
Does not count as a magical or psionic effect for the purposes of anything that detects such things.
Is an Extraordinary ability, and is thus not suppressed by an Antimagic/Antipsionic Field.


There are several decisions you can make, as DM, that further define the limits of this ability. For instance, the thralls/believers don't necessarily know the Thrallherd is a Thrallherd, or that the Thrallherd is psionically controlling them. As another example, how exactly can the Thrallherd "lose" a thrall/believer? Obviously, dying counts as losing them, but can the Thrallherd choose to release thralls/believers? If so, said thralls/believers might realize they were being controlled, since they no longer feel compelled to obey; the only way they wouldn't suspect such a thing would be if the Thrallherd is someone they'd probably unquestioningly obey anyway.

One more thing: if you rule it so that believers can level up via experience, then it would be prudent for the Thrallherd to send ECL 6 believers close to leveling on suicide missions. This can be a good way to include the PCs: if they were believers about to level, the Thrallherd sent them on such a mission, but they managed to beat the odds and survive, escaping their chains and realizing they were controlled. Combine this with the suggestion up-thread, and you get one hell of a story.

Before I get started, please note that this plot will only play out if the PCs are the type to work with a benevolent monarchy; if they tend more towards Chaotic or non-Good alignments, this probably won't work as well; that said, if there are such PCs in the group, you might be able to convince them to play along if you clue them in.The PCs are making their way towards the kingdom's capitol, where they hope to join together with the kingdom's benevolent monarch, when they come across a royal caravan that's been attacked, robbed, and left to burn in the middle of nowhere (for at least several hours and possibly a day or two). The lone surviving caravan guard, who is close to death, tells the PCs how they were transporting the princess home from a diplomatic meeting when they were attacked; the guard is convinced that the bandits have intentions to hold the princess hostage for ransom...or other reasons (feel free to make this part really dark, if your group would be cool with that). With their last dying breath, they beg the PCs to save the princess.

One way or another, the PCs make their way to the bandit's fortress (located somewhere within a day's travel or so), killing every bandit they come across. Making their way through the fortress, they eventually confront the bandit king in his lair, who has the kidnapped princess chained up at his makeshift throne. The PCs defeat the bandit king and his minions rescuing the princess in the process. The princess seems overjoyed to have been rescued. The PCs transport the princess to the kingdom's capitol, where they are granted an audience with the ruling monarch. Said monarch is overjoyed at the safe return of their daughter, and throws a feast in the PCs' honor. At some point, the PCs are offered positions as the princess' vassals. At this point, the princess will send them on a major quest (with a couple side-quests on the way): the PCs are to reclaim the (insert McGuffin here), a powerful magical/psionic artifact shrouded in secrecy that was stolen from the kingdom by rebels a while back.

Making their way towards the artifact's last known location, and completing their side missions along the way, the PCs run into an inordinate number of random encounters along the way. Due to these extra sources of XP, by the time the PCs reach the rebel base where the artifact is being kept, the non-LG PCs are realizing that they're somewhat less loyal to the monarch and the princess than they were when they left. Hindsight reveals times when they acted in ways they wouldn't act normally; by comparing their experiences, the PCs realize that something strange has been going on, but decide to press on with their mission until they can return and get some answers. The rebels turn out to be much more powerful than the PCs are, and capture them. The rebels, upon finding out that the PCs were recently employed by the monarch, are questioned until the rebel leader is certain that they aren't under the Thrallherd's sway anymore. At this point, the PCs are informed that all of the "rebels" are actually ex-believers, just like them. Through extensive research into the fiends of psionics, the rebels believe that the current ruling monarch is actually a Thrallherd who psionically controls the royal court. By killing the monarch, they can free the kingdom from this villain's control, hopefully allowing for a brighter future.

This point of the story is pretty average: PCs train up with the rebels, finding out how to infiltrate the city without killing the poor, well-intentioned but mind-controlled guards. Eventually, the rebels and the PCs infiltrate the city and the castle, making their way to the throne room. Arriving, they find the monarch, the princess, and their personal guard waiting for them, and a standard battle ensues. The monarch should be a decently powerful NPC, as should their guards. Eventually, the PCs win; as more guards rush into the room to take down the rebels and the PCs, the rebel leader kills the monarch and announces how they are all freed from the control of the evil Thrallherd monarch. All the guards and the princess have appropriate reactions, and the PCs have a nice little ending; the artifact is returned to the kingdom, the princess is crowned the new monarch, and the rebels rejoin their old kingdom, welcomed with open arms.

...there's just one problem: the story isn't over. The PCs and the higher-level rebels are immediately sent out by the princess to take down an invading army; while they're all gone, the princess spreads propaganda insisting that the PCs and the rebels unjustly murdered the previous monarch (who was well-liked due to their benevolent nature). Once the PCs and any surviving rebels return from the battlefront, they find the kingdom hostile towards them, and they are targeted by powerful assassins as they make their way back to the castle.

Upon arriving at the capitol, the find all the propaganda and realize the princess betrayed them. A fight with the captain of the guard (who was present when they killed the king) shows that he's still held under someone else's control, leading the PCs and the rebel leader to realize that the princess was the true Thrallherd the whole time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw). Rushing to the palace, they confront the princess, who is sick and tired of trying to indirectly kill them that she takes matters into her own hands. This fight will be a powerful Thrallherd and their two thralls against the PCs and the surviving rebels. Where the campaign goes from here is up to you, assuming the PCs defeat the princess.

Continuing with the plot established above, the PCs must find a new monarch. It turns out that the only royal left alive lives far away, and must be escorted safely back home. Until they return, the rebel leader will take the crown for themselves, until the rightful heir is able to take control. The adventure to find the next heir and return them safely to the capitol should take quite some time. Upon returning, the PCs find out that the rebel leader was apparently also a Thrallherd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu_RmSJxtUE), who has now taken over the kingdom.

Blah blah blah, they defeat the rebel leader and crown the heir they found...who also is apparently a Thrallherd, who immediately tries to kill them. Hopefully by this point, the PCs will start to suspect something. As it turns out, none of the people who seemed to be Thrallherds were actually Thrallherds. In fact, it was the crown: the crown is actually the phylactery of a Lich Thrallherd polymorph'd into a crown who ruled the kingdom a long time ago, and has been controlling each person to wear the crown ever since.

Rather than being a regular Lich Thrallherd polymorph'd into a crown, it's actually a Demilich Wilder 5/Thrallherd 10/Uncarnate 10 (est. CR: 33) with the crown being their phylactery, the gems embedded in the crown being its soul gems, and the royal throne actually housing their old body.


How's that for a complicated mastermind?

Segev
2015-03-11, 11:17 AM
Before I get started, please note that this plot will only play out if the PCs are the type to work with a benevolent monarchy; if they tend more towards Chaotic or non-Good alignments, this probably won't work as well; that said, if there are such PCs in the group, you might be able to convince them to play along if you clue them in.The PCs are making their way towards the kingdom's capitol, where they hope to join together with the kingdom's benevolent monarch, when they come across a royal caravan that's been attacked, robbed, and left to burn in the middle of nowhere (for at least several hours and possibly a day or two). The lone surviving caravan guard, who is close to death, tells the PCs how they were transporting the princess home from a diplomatic meeting when they were attacked; the guard is convinced that the bandits have intentions to hold the princess hostage for ransom...or other reasons (feel free to make this part really dark, if your group would be cool with that). With their last dying breath, they beg the PCs to save the princess.

One way or another, the PCs make their way to the bandit's fortress (located somewhere within a day's travel or so), killing every bandit they come across. Making their way through the fortress, they eventually confront the bandit king in his lair, who has the kidnapped princess chained up at his makeshift throne. The PCs defeat the bandit king and his minions rescuing the princess in the process. The princess seems overjoyed to have been rescued. The PCs transport the princess to the kingdom's capitol, where they are granted an audience with the ruling monarch. Said monarch is overjoyed at the safe return of their daughter, and throws a feast in the PCs' honor. At some point, the PCs are offered positions as the princess' vassals. At this point, the princess will send them on a major quest (with a couple side-quests on the way): the PCs are to reclaim the (insert McGuffin here), a powerful magical/psionic artifact shrouded in secrecy that was stolen from the kingdom by rebels a while back.

Making their way towards the artifact's last known location, and completing their side missions along the way, the PCs run into an inordinate number of random encounters along the way. Due to these extra sources of XP, by the time the PCs reach the rebel base where the artifact is being kept, the non-LG PCs are realizing that they're somewhat less loyal to the monarch and the princess than they were when they left. Hindsight reveals times when they acted in ways they wouldn't act normally; by comparing their experiences, the PCs realize that something strange has been going on, but decide to press on with their mission until they can return and get some answers. The rebels turn out to be much more powerful than the PCs are, and capture them. The rebels, upon finding out that the PCs were recently employed by the monarch, are questioned until the rebel leader is certain that they aren't under the Thrallherd's sway anymore. At this point, the PCs are informed that all of the "rebels" are actually ex-believers, just like them. Through extensive research into the fiends of psionics, the rebels believe that the current ruling monarch is actually a Thrallherd who psionically controls the royal court. By killing the monarch, they can free the kingdom from this villain's control, hopefully allowing for a brighter future.

This point of the story is pretty average: PCs train up with the rebels, finding out how to infiltrate the city without killing the poor, well-intentioned but mind-controlled guards. Eventually, the rebels and the PCs infiltrate the city and the castle, making their way to the throne room. Arriving, they find the monarch, the princess, and their personal guard waiting for them, and a standard battle ensues. The monarch should be a decently powerful NPC, as should their guards. Eventually, the PCs win; as more guards rush into the room to take down the rebels and the PCs, the rebel leader kills the monarch and announces how they are all freed from the control of the evil Thrallherd monarch. All the guards and the princess have appropriate reactions, and the PCs have a nice little ending; the artifact is returned to the kingdom, the princess is crowned the new monarch, and the rebels rejoin their old kingdom, welcomed with open arms.

...there's just one problem: the story isn't over. The PCs and the higher-level rebels are immediately sent out by the princess to take down an invading army; while they're all gone, the princess spreads propaganda insisting that the PCs and the rebels unjustly murdered the previous monarch (who was well-liked due to their benevolent nature). Once the PCs and any surviving rebels return from the battlefront, they find the kingdom hostile towards them, and they are targeted by powerful assassins as they make their way back to the castle.

Upon arriving at the capitol, the find all the propaganda and realize the princess betrayed them. A fight with the captain of the guard (who was present when they killed the king) shows that he's still held under someone else's control, leading the PCs and the rebel leader to realize that the princess was the true Thrallherd the whole time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw). Rushing to the palace, they confront the princess, who is sick and tired of trying to indirectly kill them that she takes matters into her own hands. This fight will be a powerful Thrallherd and their two thralls against the PCs and the surviving rebels. Where the campaign goes from here is up to you, assuming the PCs defeat the princess.

Continuing with the plot established above, the PCs must find a new monarch. It turns out that the only royal left alive lives far away, and must be escorted safely back home. Until they return, the rebel leader will take the crown for themselves, until the rightful heir is able to take control. The adventure to find the next heir and return them safely to the capitol should take quite some time. Upon returning, the PCs find out that the rebel leader was apparently also a Thrallherd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu_RmSJxtUE), who has now taken over the kingdom.

Blah blah blah, they defeat the rebel leader and crown the heir they found...who also is apparently a Thrallherd, who immediately tries to kill them. Hopefully by this point, the PCs will start to suspect something. As it turns out, none of the people who seemed to be Thrallherds were actually Thrallherds. In fact, it was the crown: the crown is actually the phylactery of a Lich Thrallherd polymorph'd into a crown who ruled the kingdom a long time ago, and has been controlling each person to wear the crown ever since.

Rather than being a regular Lich Thrallherd polymorph'd into a crown, it's actually a Demilich Wilder 5/Thrallherd 10/Uncarnate 10 (est. CR: 33) with the crown being their phylactery, the gems embedded in the crown being its soul gems, and the royal throne actually housing their old body.


How's that for a complicated mastermind?

This seems to break down at the point where the PCs are supposed to suddenly realize they'd acted "out of character." If you didn't force something on the players, what is it that the PCs could notice is odd about their behavior, that could represent them coming out of the Thrallherd's influence?

AvatarVecna
2015-03-11, 11:26 AM
This seems to break down at the point where the PCs are supposed to suddenly realize they'd acted "out of character." If you didn't force something on the players, what is it that the PCs could notice is odd about their behavior, that could represent them coming out of the Thrallherd's influence?

My quick idea was more of a general direction to take things in. Obviously, to pull something like this off, it would either have to be a lot more complicated, or it would have to start at the point when the PCs reach ECL 7 while also making the Thrallherd unambiguously Selfish Evil (so that everybody would hate them normally). If a DM ran this, they'd have to include a lot more details than I've given here, but the general idea is still there.

Telonius
2015-03-11, 11:34 AM
The first and most important part of making a Mastermind sort of villain is to know how to tell a baldfaced lie with a straight face. As DM, you're going to have to work pretty hard not to give plot points away, especially as they dig down closer to the final reveal.

(Un)Inspired
2015-03-11, 12:44 PM
The first and most important part of making a Mastermind sort of villain is to know how to tell a baldfaced lie with a straight face. As DM, you're going to have to work pretty hard not to give plot points away, especially as they dig down closer to the final reveal.

Telonius is right. I recommend increasing the amount you lie in your everyday life to better prepare you for the role.

Boost
2015-03-11, 12:48 PM
Read Rich's Villain Workshop (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html). Follow the step-by-step guide he uses. Some of those steps involve figuring out your villain's personality and what sort of evil scheme he is up to. It's a great way to develop a campaign, since your quests will develop based on the steps of the villain's grand scheme, which in turn will be based on his personality.

tiercel
2015-03-11, 04:34 PM
The first and most important part of making a Mastermind sort of villain is to know how to tell a baldfaced lie with a straight face. As DM, you're going to have to work pretty hard not to give plot points away, especially as they dig down closer to the final reveal.
+1

Any kind of "you don't know who to trust" campaign will depend on your real life Bluff skill.

Additionally, watch how much detail you use in descriptions -- it's a dead giveaway that someone is important, potentially nefarious, if that person and/or description of them takes up a lot of "screen time," particularly if it's more than anyone else in context.

bloodystone2
2015-03-11, 06:50 PM
Alright, want to throw your players on their head, try this.

Create a BBEG whose agents always appear and disappear throughout the campaign. Exploring a dungeon, fighting undead and suddenly they see a Wizard whose invisibility just ended writing notes down. He then teleports away. They're at their castle and a new lord demands to see and inspects the party but disappears after his request is fulfilled. The party's ally was drugged, whisked away, and tortured for information.

Then, after the BBEG got all of his information, he strikes hard and swiftly. This may be a large band of rangers and rogues sent as assassins, this may be careful bombings in key locations at their HQ. Maybe even kidnap a PC or two (ask first).

Then, pull a bait and switch. The roguish BBEG switches out himself for a kobold or goblin dummy playing warchief. Sure, the kobold or goblin may be good at combat but he should be absolutely destroyed in a straight fight. After the dummy warchief is slain, drop hints that something is obviously wrong. Then properly introduce your BBEG in an awesome way. My recommendation, a volley of arrows from the ceiling coupled with a mindcontrolled party ally is always a good way to set up the tone.

atemu1234
2015-03-11, 06:53 PM
Alright, want to throw your players on their head, try this.

Create a BBEG whose agents always appear and disappear throughout the campaign. Exploring a dungeon, fighting undead and suddenly they see a Wizard whose invisibility just ended writing notes down. He then teleports away. They're at their castle and a new lord demands to see and inspects the party but disappears after his request is fulfilled. The party's ally was drugged, whisked away, and tortured for information.

Then, after the BBEG got all of his information, he strikes hard and swiftly. This may be a large band of rangers and rogues sent as assassins, this may be careful bombings in key locations at their HQ. Maybe even kidnap a PC or two (ask first).

Then, pull a bait and switch. The roguish BBEG switches out himself for a kobold or goblin dummy playing warchief. Sure, the kobold or goblin may be good at combat but he should be absolutely destroyed in a straight fight. After the dummy warchief is slain, drop hints that something is obviously wrong. Then properly introduce your BBEG in an awesome way. My recommendation, a volley of arrows from the ceiling coupled with a mindcontrolled party ally is always a good way to set up the tone.

Or, do what I do. Never resolve it. Just let the characters get more and more suspicious, but their investigations turn up nothing. But it keeps happening. Forever.

tiercel
2015-03-15, 11:06 PM
Should have thought of this straight off, but if you haven't watched it lately (or at all), rent/stream a copy of The Usual Suspects (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114814/).