EE Aarakocra issues?

[foREVer_Lawliet]

I have just read over the EE players companion, it states in there that the Aarakocra class have the ability to fly, with a flight speed of 50ft at level 1, no cool-down per rest either, therefore it says "As a result, playing an aarakocra requires special consideration by your DM"

What are your thought/restrictions on this?

[Giant2005]

I'd give them disadvantage on ranged attack rolls while flying.
EDIT: thought I'd specify that I'd apply that penalty to anyone that is in flight, not just the Ararakocra.

[DanyBallon]

Actually, the ability to fly is pretty good if you have enough space, most dungeon crawl or urban adventures aren't suited for such. Also, Aarakocra can't wear any armor while flying which is a major drawback within bound accuracy.

If you want to add some other drawbacks, then I would suggest that their wings limit them to light and medium armor, and/or, light armor only add half DEX modifier to AC and medium limit to +1 DEX to AC.

[diplomancer]

It is very abusable by any grappler build. Specially a Monk, with extra movement and step of the wind. At level 2, just with step of the wind, you are looking at a 6d6 per round, with the guy falling prone. You can also go up even more before dropping them. On the second round you can use your other ki point for going more 90 feet up, for 15d6 damage. And the best that they can do is to escape your grasp and take less falling damage. At level 4 you grab mobile. At level 5 you can grapple 2 different opponents.

This race is crazy for any campaign that does not take place mostly in dungeons.

[jkat718]

The issue with only using armor restrictions is that non-armored classes (usually arcanists, Barbarians, and Monks) aren't affected by them. Maybe say that the flight speed is 1/2, but allow double Dash action without either a) medium or heavy armor or b) encumbrance, depending on which rule set you use. That way, the Aarakocra can still move 50' in a turn, but they must forego their action to do so.

[FightStyles]

I'd probably make it a progession on the flying and fluff it with some kind of healing wing injury. The use of his wings get stronger as he levels up and then throw a item or something that finally grants flying at will at level 12-14. Fly is a level 3 spell, so I'd scale it with the uses/day along the lines of the advancement of a classes level 3 slots.

[pwykersotz]

I've decided not to use them until my parties have explored the system a bit more. I'm all for a race having useful abilities, and all-day every-day flight wasn't an issue for me in 3.5, but I haven't really seen how the game plays out without it yet.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

It is very abusable by any grappler build. Specially a Monk, with extra movement and step of the wind. At level 2, just with step of the wind, you are looking at a 6d6 per round, with the guy falling prone. You can also go up even more before dropping them. On the second round you can use your other ki point for going more 90 feet up, for 15d6 damage. And the best that they can do is to escape your grasp and take less falling damage. At level 4 you grab mobile. At level 5 you can grapple 2 different opponents.

If they can't fly and wear medium armor they definitely can't fly while lifting someone.

[Gwendol]

It is very abusable by any grappler build. Specially a Monk, with extra movement and step of the wind. At level 2, just with step of the wind, you are looking at a 6d6 per round, with the guy falling prone. You can also go up even more before dropping them. On the second round you can use your other ki point for going more 90 feet up, for 15d6 damage. And the best that they can do is to escape your grasp and take less falling damage. At level 4 you grab mobile. At level 5 you can grapple 2 different opponents.

This race is crazy for any campaign that does not take place mostly in dungeons.

I don't see how it is possible for the Aarakocra to lift that much. They don't appear to be very strong.

[diplomancer]

They are as strong as you make them. They don't get bonus to strength, but with strength 15 they already can lift 225 pounds. Once they get to 20 Str they can lift 300 pounds, which is about 2 medium sized creatures.


If they can't fly and wear medium armor they definitely can't fly while lifting someone

You are assuming that the effect of medium armor on flying has to do with weight and not with movement restriction.

Anyway, nothing says that they can't do that. The DM might rule that if he wants, of course, but since they can ban the race outright...

[foREVer_Lawliet]

Since posting this I have talked with the DM, we have settled on:


Due to combat being more tiring you can only fly for 4 turns, you then have to stay on the ground for 1 d4 turns before you can fly again
Due to outstretched wings making you a bigger target, you have a -2 to AC whilst flying


Still, any other ideas you guys can come up with, or your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Madfellow]

I'd rule that any bonus to the character's speed, from class features or spells or whatever, only applies to its land speed, not its fly speed. 50ft per round is already plenty fast.

[diplomancer]

Continuing with the grappler idea... then your friendly wizard casts haste on you... this damage is going crazy...

[DireSickFish]

I'd rule that you can only move people grappled using your land speed to drag them, so no grabbing folk and dragging them up in the air. You could however drag them over a cliff, then let go and fly to safety while they plummet to there death.

The big problem is going to come in crafting encounters. A lot of things are by-passable with flight. Any intelligent enemy that knows about the Aarakocra beforehand is going to have to come up with countermeasures, and those that don't know beforehand might be SOL if they decide to play the aerial game.

I wouldn't come up with any crazy rules to balance them, I'd either ban them or allow them with no middle ground. It depends on how big of a headache I think they'd be for my plot or campaign ideas.

[rollingForInit]

I see no reason to limit the flying ability, or disallow the use of ranged weapons or spells, or give players disadvantage. Actually, I see no reason why the Aarakocra would be OP or need any change. Flying is literally the only thing of significance the race has going for it. Limiting it just makes it worthless.

Allow players to fly any way they want with it. Let them shine during some combats, where they're almost untouchable. Let them be awesome. The players will enjoy that.

But also introduce more flying enemies. Melee monsters with wings. That'll make life tougher for it. Pity the flying ranger archer who's suddenly attacked by two melee monsters in air, 50ft away from any allies. Especially since they have to move continuously, meaning they've the choice of either taking opportunity attacks or falling and taking damage. It doesn't have the hover ability, after all.

Have more archers and spellcasters. They can still target the Aarakocra.

Many fights will take place indoors, in dungeons or in forests with thick canopies. In any of those places, flying will be useful, but severely limited.

Really, trying to limit the Aarakocra's flying ability just sounds like laziness. I haven't tried it yet, but if you know there'll be one of those in the party, just design encounters with that in mind. If you dislike flying, disallow the race.

[Gwendol]

They are as strong as you make them. They don't get bonus to strength, but with strength 15 they already can lift 225 pounds. Once they get to 20 Str they can lift 300 pounds, which is about 2 medium sized creatures.



You are assuming that the effect of medium armor on flying has to do with weight and not with movement restriction.

Anyway, nothing says that they can't do that. The DM might rule that if he wants, of course, but since they can ban the race outright...

On the ground they can lift that. It says nothing about flight, which means it's up to the DM.

On the other hand they are different from their MM entry in that they no longer have a dive attack, which is more than a little odd.

[Dralnu]

I'm allowing them for now. I don't expect any problems, especially from my playgroup, but it's something to keep an eye on.

The picking up + dropping thing looks silly, but if it's not greatly outpacing other characters then I don't mind. If it was becoming a problem you could design encounters where the strongest enemy is too heavy to pick up like that, large beasts and such, like ogres. Then the player can still do his schtick on minions without negating the entire encounter.

Another simple solution to them is to run more ranged opponents than usual. That way the arakocra player still has his enhanced mobility while being pressured like normal. If the player is employing hit-and-run tactics to get out of range, have the ranged opponents ready actions to shoot once he dives in.

I find that enemy NPC casters, at least at low levels (Cult Fanatic and friends), have Hold Person prepared. I've been using that spell a lot to great effect already. It's even deadlier against arakocra. Paralyze them and they drop out of the sky, taking heavy damage if they're greedy with their altitude.


One simple situation that could come up: arakocra player with a longbow and sharpshooter plinking out of any opponent's range. There's less options to counter that. You either have to use more opponents with equal range, flying opponents, or have combat take place in environments where the player can't do that.

When in doubt, just make the dungeons indoors. They usually are anyway. Or ban the race; the description even mentions that allowing arakocra requires special consideration and it's banned from AL.

[Gwendol]

Using encumbrance rules will limit picking up enemies quickly, or just calculate what the enemy actually weighs (including armor and gear). My guess is not many will manage it.

[Zariel]

I don't see any issues with Aarakocra :P Flying is their base thing of transportation why take it away from them?
They walk 25ft so taking away their flying is bad. Also flying is their ONLY special thing. They probably will not use medium and heavy armors since then they will not fly. They don't have darvision. No +skills. Talons are nice but you will not use them mostly.
They make great monks and make creazy things with grapple. monk x/rogue 2 with expertise in grapple and decent STR(this mean that you must have good STR, DEX, WIS in point-buy hard to do) will do massive damage doing one of the charizard moves :P
But it is all situational. And climatic. And really FUN! :D
Why take FUN from players? If you as DM don't think that Aarakocra is something you want do deal with just ban them.
So in conclusion:
Let Aarakockra fly in peace! :D

[Chronos]

I would rule that their hands are on their wings, not separate limbs, and that thus they can't do anything requiring hands (wield weapons or cast somatic spells) while flying. They can still fight in the air, but they have to close to talon range to do it, or restrict themselves to non-somatic spells. This would let their flight be used for utility purposes, but make it much less dominant in combat.

[EvanescentHero]

I would rule that their hands are on their wings, not separate limbs, and that thus they can't do anything requiring hands (wield weapons or cast somatic spells) while flying. They can still fight in the air, but they have to close to talon range to do it, or restrict themselves to non-somatic spells. This would let their flight be used for utility purposes, but make it much less dominant in combat.

You know you're making that up and it contradicts the design of the race, right? The artwork very clearly shows wings and arms.

EDIT: Obviously you're free to do that, I'm just making sure you're aware.

[cobaltstarfire]

Since posting this I have talked with the DM, we have settled on:


Due to combat being more tiring you can only fly for 4 turns, you then have to stay on the ground for 1 d4 turns before you can fly again
Due to outstretched wings making you a bigger target, you have a -2 to AC whilst flying


Still, any other ideas you guys can come up with, or your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

I don't think the second bullet is good. Most of a birds wings are feathers not meat, being shot through the feathers or damaging some primaries/secondaries won't hinder a birds ability to fly or even hurt.

To me it seems like something where you should play with it without adding/changing the rules a bit first and see how it works, and then start tweaking the rules from there.

The DM may not even have to come up with new rules to prevent issues with grabbing/dropping enemies. Just use the variant encumbrance rules and state that an encumbered Aarakocra can't fly. Even the likes of Barbarians and Monks will be hard pressed to fly off with heavy things.

[jkat718]

I think that halving the carrying capacity of Aarakocra in flight would be a good solution. That way, even a 20 STR character (the highest possible starting score, but only possible when rolling for stats) can only push, lift, or drag 300 lb., which is... 2 average size humans? Wow, that's pretty powerful. Of course, that's assuming the two humans are buck naked, as is the Aarakocra, but still... Let's assume the character gets the maximum 15 STR, which equates to a 225 lb. P/L/D. Let's give it the Monk/Hermit starting package (the most problematic Race/Class combo, I think, and the most typical Background), which puts it at minimum equipment weight at...

1 dagger * 1 lb. = 1 lb.
1 dung/expl * {5 + 7 + 1 + 1 + 10 + 20 + 5 + 10} lb. = 59 lb.
10 dart * 0.25 lb. = 2.5 lb.
1 case, map or scroll * 1 lb. = 1 lb.
10 parchment (notes) * 0 lb. = 0 lb.
1 blanket (winter) * 3 lb. = 3 lb.
1 clothes, common * 3lb. = 3 lb.
1 herbalism kit * 3 lb. = 3 lb.
5 gold piece * 0.02 lb. = 0.1 lb.

Total 72.6 pounds of gear. Let's say they sell their background equipment (because it's mostly useless besides fluff, and we'll assume this hypothetical munchkin is a rollplayer), reducing starting weight by {1 + 0 + 3 + 3} = 7 lbs. and replacing it with 0.02 * {1 + 10 + 5 + 5} = 0.42 lb. of coinage for a subtotal carried weight of {72.6 - 7 + 0.42} = 66.02 lb.

This results in {225 - 66.02} = 158.98 remaining weight. The average human weighs 150 lb., so the Aarakocra could theoretically carry 1 average human, which must be carrying no more than 8.98 lb. of gear. Not too bad, but the assumption is that this will block most medium-size creatures from being carried off by the Aarakocra.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If you are using the double-push capacity rules, note that your speed drops to 5 ft when over your basic encumbrance.

[rollingForInit]

I've yet to see anyone show something to indicate that the Aarakocra needs to be nerfed in any way. Looks like the only thing people are reacting to is "OMG FLYING AT LEVEL ONE! MUST NERF!"

Can someone actually come up with any kind of broken build that cannot be prevented with minor effort from the DM during encounter design?

[Giant2005]

I've yet to see anyone show something to indicate that the Aarakocra needs to be nerfed in any way. Looks like the only thing people are reacting to is "OMG FLYING AT LEVEL ONE! MUST NERF!"

Can someone actually come up with any kind of broken build that cannot be prevented with minor effort from the DM during encounter design?

I don't think the Aarakocra need nerfed and I'm not even sure that is what this thread is about.
When reading between the lines, this thread is essentially about devising rules for aerial combat which is something the books have yet to give us. This stuff is entirely in the hands of the DM and it is good to get some kind of consensus on the matter regardless of whether or not the Aarakocra even exist.

[Gwendol]

I think that halving the carrying capacity of Aarakocra in flight would be a good solution. That way, even a 20 STR character (the highest possible starting score, but only possible when rolling for stats) can only push, lift, or drag 300 lb., which is... 2 average size humans? Wow, that's pretty powerful. Of course, that's assuming the two humans are buck naked, as is the Aarakocra, but still... Let's assume the character gets the maximum 15 STR, which equates to a 225 lb. P/L/D. Let's give it the Monk/Hermit starting package (the most problematic Race/Class combo, I think, and the most typical Background), which puts it at minimum equipment weight at...

1 dagger * 1 lb. = 1 lb.
1 dung/expl * {5 + 7 + 1 + 1 + 10 + 20 + 5 + 10} lb. = 59 lb.
10 dart * 0.25 lb. = 2.5 lb.
1 case, map or scroll * 1 lb. = 1 lb.
10 parchment (notes) * 0 lb. = 0 lb.
1 blanket (winter) * 3 lb. = 3 lb.
1 clothes, common * 3lb. = 3 lb.
1 herbalism kit * 3 lb. = 3 lb.
5 gold piece * 0.02 lb. = 0.1 lb.

Total 72.6 pounds of gear. Let's say they sell their background equipment (because it's mostly useless besides fluff, and we'll assume this hypothetical munchkin is a rollplayer), reducing starting weight by {1 + 0 + 3 + 3} = 7 lbs. and replacing it with 0.02 * {1 + 10 + 5 + 5} = 0.42 lb. of coinage for a subtotal carried weight of {72.6 - 7 + 0.42} = 66.02 lb.

This results in {225 - 66.02} = 158.98 remaining weight. The average human weighs 150 lb., so the Aarakocra could theoretically carry 1 average human, which must be carrying no more than 8.98 lb. of gear. Not too bad, but the assumption is that this will block most medium-size creatures from being carried off by the Aarakocra.

Right, as I noted above if you actually take into account the weight of your own and the enemy gear (or ally) not a lot of creatures will be liftable. Also, it isn't unreasonable for the DM to use encumbrance rules to reduce the speed of the flying PC.

Also, I doubt Aarakocra PC's will forego the advantage of ranged weapons. My guess is many will actually be hunter rangers, archery style.

[Shining Wrath]

Flight is immensely powerful; it's a 14th level class feature for sorcerers and no one else gets at-will flight at all. The Fly spell has been nerfed from 3.5 and so on.

So if you give a character at-will flight from level 1 onward you have to design the entire campaign to mitigate their advantage over the rest of the party (or just have an all-aarocka party).

There'd have to be some give-back somewhere. I might even go 3.5 on you and demand a +1 or +2 level adjustment.

[rollingForInit]

Flight is immensely powerful; it's a 14th level class feature for sorcerers and no one else gets at-will flight at all. The Fly spell has been nerfed from 3.5 and so on.

So if you give a character at-will flight from level 1 onward you have to design the entire campaign to mitigate their advantage over the rest of the party (or just have an all-aarocka party).

There'd have to be some give-back somewhere. I might even go 3.5 on you and demand a +1 or +2 level adjustment.

I don't see why there'd have to be a give-back somewhere. The Aarakocra only gets flying. That's it. No other abilities. No darkvision. No spellcasting. No skills. Their only purpose is to be able to fly.

The only affect it'll have is that you'll have to design your campaign with his in mind. Obviously it'll break a campaign if it's built under the assumption that no characters can fly at will during lower levels. But if that's the case, just ban the race. It's not so strong that it warrants having the character several levels behind.

I'm much, much more worried about my upcoming adventure with two druids (one of which is a moon druid) than I would be about having an Aarakocra. Can't for the life of me see why it'd break my campaign to the point that I'd have to severely limit it.

[ChubbyRain]

Flight is immensely powerful; it's a 14th level class feature for sorcerers and no one else gets at-will flight at all. The Fly spell has been nerfed from 3.5 and so on.

So if you give a character at-will flight from level 1 onward you have to design the entire campaign to mitigate their advantage over the rest of the party (or just have an all-aarocka party).

There'd have to be some give-back somewhere. I might even go 3.5 on you and demand a +1 or +2 level adjustment.

Why would you want to bring back that clunky and terrible system? That's just begging for trouble when new races are developed.

Of course this forum would freak out about the martials becoming too powerful with a new option (grapple drop) than think of how powerful this makes casters... *smh*

But I now can make this tag team of Abraham Lincoln and Eagle...

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130311192536/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/6/6f/Woods.png

[FightStyles]

I'd probably make it a progession on the flying and fluff it with some kind of healing wing injury. The use of his wings get stronger as he levels up and then throw a item or something that finally grants flying at will at level 12-14. Fly is a level 3 spell, so I'd scale it with the uses/day along the lines of the advancement of a classes level 3 slots.

I didn't mention this, but I honestly don't think there is an actual problem with this race. I agree with those who also don't think it's a problem as is in that it is based on how well a DM can keep it interesting for them. This is the same for any PC builds in general. The DM must provide challenges and opportunities for shining for each player and their PC at the table.

So the issue isn't the race itself, but how the DM handles challenging and providing opportunities for the Aarakocra. It does appear to me, however, that these might tend towards extremes. Giving the monsters ranged attacks and the Aarakocra is an easy target with low AC (however, the PC's class should probably help with this). Letting the race shine might provide too easy of battles. The real concern would be balancing the battles, skill tests and puzzles so they don't outshine other races while keeping the challenge of every battle down from deadly.

[Mr.Moron]

Personal flight & teleportation are usually the first two things I make clear are entirely off the table to begin with. It's certainly not a player option I'd add to a game I was running.

That said I don't think having at as an early at-will ability has all that much broader an impact than it being in the game at all. I think if you're already including flight at the default levels the system assumes then their racial ability is fine without further restrictions or caveats.

[obryn]

I've yet to see anyone show something to indicate that the Aarakocra needs to be nerfed in any way. Looks like the only thing people are reacting to is "OMG FLYING AT LEVEL ONE! MUST NERF!"

Can someone actually come up with any kind of broken build that cannot be prevented with minor effort from the DM during encounter design?
The added effort from the DM during encounter design is the actual problem. At least for me, it would be.

[ChubbyRain]

I've yet to see anyone show something to indicate that the Aarakocra needs to be nerfed in any way. Looks like the only thing people are reacting to is "OMG FLYING AT LEVEL ONE! MUST NERF!"

Can someone actually come up with any kind of broken build that cannot be prevented with minor effort from the DM during encounter design?

Wait... Is someone on this forum actually pushing for specific and deliberate DM fiat that attacks one (maybe more) players specifically because of their racial features?

I thought everyone on these forums absolutely hated DM fiat and player targeting?

Huh, learn something new everyday.

[Spacehamster]

Only issue I see with them is that they are not Avariel elves but stinky birdmen instead. :´(

[rollingForInit]

The added effort from the DM during encounter design is the actual problem. At least for me, it would be.

So don't add it. I don't see an issue with a DM banning certain races (or even classes) because they don't fit with the campaign. We had a campaign once where no races of "outsider" descent were allowed, that is, no aasimars/tieflings/elementals/etc, for story-reasons. Another campaign had Drow 100% banned for story reasons. If your campaign would face serious issues with a constantly flying PC, ban the race. The Aarakocra obviously isn't meant to be used in every game, and that's fine.

Aside from that, I don't see how this is an extra effort on the DM, more than anything else is. Having Wizards that can overcome resistances have the added effort of sometimes finding monsters that have other resistances. Having a party of only paladins, druids and clerics means en "extra" effort of designing encounters that take an absurd amount of healing into consideration. Having a Moon Druid means extra effort to design encounters that take the meat wall of HP from their wild form into consideration. Having a player with a Weapon of Warning requires some effort to design good ambushes. Having an Eladrin would result in more effort to design encounters knowing that a PC can always teleport. Having a party with no healers at all requires extra effort to make sure the party can actually survive without the healing.

You build your encounters based on the party that's going to face them. That doesn't change with an Aarakocra. All it takes is to ... build encounters like you usually do. Just knowing that there's a flying PC, so make sure there are flying monsters or monsters with ranged attacks. That's it. It takes [ieffort[/i] because designing encounters takes effort. It doesn't take more effort. It certainly takes more effort to come up with a way to nerf the flying without making the race less than useless.

[rollingForInit]

Wait... Is someone on this forum actually pushing for specific and deliberate DM fiat that attacks one (maybe more) players specifically because of their racial features?

I thought everyone on these forums absolutely hated DM fiat and player targeting?

Huh, learn something new everyday.

I thought that was the norm? That's how we play. Sometimes there are encounters where a character gets to shine. Sometimes there are encounters that are especially challenging for a certain character. Most of the type the encounters are just neutral in that regard.

Having enemies that actually attack the PC's isn't exactly "specifically" targeting someone. If a party has flyers, obviously the enemies will release their own flying monsters to compensate. In return, the PC gets to have some epic aerial combat. Just like there are enemies that are especially good at targeting spellcasters, or resisting physical (or magical) damage.

[Mr.Moron]

Flight does more than mess with encounter design, it messes with everything design. The world becomes a pool table. Just about any complication that could be introduced by terrain, borders, sighting issues, and positional factors other than "It's indoors and there are no windows" is solved immediately by the ability to fly.

Which isn't to say challenges and complications can't exist without those things but it's closing of a huge amount of design space. More than it generally opens and much, much, more than it opens if only 1 or 2 of the players can readily fly (be it by racial ability or spell).

[Madfellow]

Wait... Is someone on this forum actually pushing for specific and deliberate DM fiat that attacks one (maybe more) players specifically because of their racial features?

I thought everyone on these forums absolutely hated DM fiat and player targeting?

Huh, learn something new everyday.

The post you quoted mentioned nothing about DM fiat, so I'm going to assume you accidentally quoted the wrong post. But in any case, DM fiat is not an inherently bad thing. It's a check against certain rules being abused, and it can go a long way toward making the game more fun for everyone involved.

[Chronos]

Quoth EvanescentHero:

You know you're making that up and it contradicts the design of the race, right? The artwork very clearly shows wings and arms.
Yes, I should have made clearer that I intended that as a houserule, not an interpretation of the existing rules.

And to all of those saying that it's not broken, you just need to design encounters around it: You really can't. You can design encounters that make flight completely irrelevant (all underground, everyone has attacks with as much range as whatever the birdman has, etc.), or you can make encounters where flight is an insanely huge advantage, and there really isn't anything in between. And if you're designing your encounters so that flight is irrelevant, why have flight at all? You might as well just ban the race, at that point. No other race has an ability that warps the game to that extent.

[SharkForce]

single-person flight isn't a big deal. limit how much they can carry (at least for long distances), and who cares. sure they can fly over a mountains (and deal with any flying encounters all by themselves because no one else is around to help). and then, when they get to the other side, hey look... it's a problem that is a challenge to solve for an entire party. you think the one flying PC is going to solve it on their own?

the one concern I would have is with the grapple/drop trick at low levels. at level 5, I could care less if the flying PC is doing 5d6 damage per round, because any competent melee or ranged character is doing better than that anyways.

so, my proposed fix: limit their carrying capacity when flying to about 1/3. include a feat that lets them carry their max for short durations (say, up to a minute at a time, possibly have a basic str 13 prereq, possibly not). and then carry on with your life.

it's not that amazing unless everyone is able to fly, and then you're not designing anything special for just one PC any more.

[pwykersotz]

Flight does more than mess with encounter design, it messes with everything design...


And to all of those saying that it's not broken, you just need to design encounters around it: You really can't...

Yes to both of these.

I seem to recall that World of Warcraft banned flight in the latest zone for that very reason, flying bypasses too many interesting facets of the world. It's not a cost/benefit situation on a case-by-case basis like it is with a spell, and the resources of stats/special abilities you "give up" with your racial choice can be made up for through other means or played around.

I'm not against racial flight, but I think denying that it's a game-changer is short sighted. I won't be implementing it in my current game, unlike the other new races.

[Myzz]

to be able to fly up wards with well over 300 pounds (Aarakocra + own equipment + 1 Medium Sized Creature + his equipment) would require quite a wingspan...

So for a Medium sized creature in flight with such a gigantic wingspan... shouldn't the ability to hit it with spells and missiles go up accordingly?

Peronally I don't believe the Aarakocra can sustain flight or glide with the encumberance of a medium creature... maybe a small one... But even then I'd probably say no.

The only way I see viable would be a Barbarian Aarakocra with Str @20+, and since they were grappling a target move speed would be reduced by half...

Monk could be a viable build, but I doubt a monk would want to boost strength that high. And a Fighter or Paladin, might want to do it, but would have to be nearly naked or count their armor and weapon weight as well as standard equipment against them...

AND I'd become a real stickler for how many coins they are carrying... we use 1 pound per 50 coins, but dont really track it that closely atm... (based on 1 pound of gold = 50 gp, PHB 157)

[Mr.Moron]

AND I'd become a real stickler for how many coins they are carrying... we use 1 pound per 50 coins, but dont really track it that closely atm... (based on 1 pound of gold = 50 gp, PHB 157)

At the point you're literally resorting to nickle-and-dimeing an ability to death, maybe you're just better off not introducing it in the first place.

[cobaltstarfire]

If I had my heart set on an Aarakocra and the DM didn't like the flying part I'd just find a suitable way/story for why my Aarakocra can't fly, or is crippled/had its wings lopped off or something. Maybe a super fat Aarakocra or something silly like that.

Although it doesn't bother me if its weak without flight, I mostly just think birds are pretty cool.

I also like them cause if my DM is fine with flying PC's, it sets some precedent for stating an Urd.


What actually has me surprised is that no one has taken note of the Aarakocra's trouble with the concept of ownership. When I first read them it wasn't the flight that I worried about it was "DM's are going to ban this because people will play them like they do kender only with wings".

[charcoalninja]

It isn't going to be a problem. Especially after the Aarakora is hit with say, a tripping attack mid air, or a hold person spell, or is otherwise knocked prone while in flight. That makes them crash.

Flight is awesome, but it isn't the end of the world anymore than it is for when the PCs face flying opponents. What it IS though, is awesome. And people need to calm down and have fun. If you can balance playing in an edition where the martial / caster divide is as pronounced as it is, you can handle one dude being able to fly while the rest of the party can't.

[SharkForce]

What actually has me surprised is that no one has taken note of the Aarakocra's trouble with the concept of ownership. When I first read them it wasn't the flight that I worried about it was "DM's are going to ban this because people will play them like they do kender only with wings".

that's one concern. other concerns would include questions like "why is this claustrophobic creature perfectly happy to spend all its time adventuring in caves and dark, dank, slimy dungeons?" and "if it basically won't adventure unless it's to fight gargoyles or search for wind staff parts, wouldn't that mean that I need to incorporate those things into every adventure to justify this PC's presence?"

[obryn]

So don't add it. I don't see an issue with a DM banning certain races (or even classes) because they don't fit with the campaign. We had a campaign once where no races of "outsider" descent were allowed, that is, no aasimars/tieflings/elementals/etc, for story-reasons. Another campaign had Drow 100% banned for story reasons. If your campaign would face serious issues with a constantly flying PC, ban the race. The Aarakocra obviously isn't meant to be used in every game, and that's fine.

Aside from that, I don't see how this is an extra effort on the DM, more than anything else is. Having Wizards that can overcome resistances have the added effort of sometimes finding monsters that have other resistances. Having a party of only paladins, druids and clerics means en "extra" effort of designing encounters that take an absurd amount of healing into consideration. Having a Moon Druid means extra effort to design encounters that take the meat wall of HP from their wild form into consideration. Having a player with a Weapon of Warning requires some effort to design good ambushes. Having an Eladrin would result in more effort to design encounters knowing that a PC can always teleport. Having a party with no healers at all requires extra effort to make sure the party can actually survive without the healing.

You build your encounters based on the party that's going to face them. That doesn't change with an Aarakocra. All it takes is to ... build encounters like you usually do. Just knowing that there's a flying PC, so make sure there are flying monsters or monsters with ranged attacks. That's it. It takes [ieffort[/i] because designing encounters takes effort. It doesn't take more effort. It certainly takes more effort to come up with a way to nerf the flying without making the race less than useless.
It's more than just making sure the enemies can either fly or shoot. It's the fact that every encounter must take place in 3D now; that the nature of exploration changes; and that many obstacles are easily circumvented. It's an added burden on adventure design, which likely explains why they're not allowed in Adventurer's League.

Teleporting Eladrin are a much less serious change in campaign structure, given the limitations of that method of movement.

[Broken Twin]

Honestly, one more flier in the fight isn't going to change too much for me. As long as encumbrance is enforced, the PC won't get up to too much in the way of crazy shenanigans. In terms of exploring... yeah, it shorts out the challenge of a specific scenario (open air obstacle course), but only for that player. The rest of them still need to climb/swim/whatever.

The light armor and inability to take cover means that they'll be open targets for archers, anyway. Taking into consideration your party's abilities is par for course when you're designing your sessions anyway. It's a bit more work, but if a player really wants it and can justify it, why not?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Basicly I would deal with them by very carefully going over with the player what knocks them out of the air, and the consequences thereof.

Spells and attacks that knock creatures prone or bind them in some way would have them fall and hit the ground hard, 1d6 per 10 feet, dex save for half.

I'd allow them to lift enemies into the air with a grapple, but then they fly at half speed and they can't lift more than their carry weight including their equipment and the target's equipment (Maybe even half that. I'd need to test it to find the right balance point). If they don't drop the grapple target immediately, I'd say the target has the option to counter-grapple, causing them both to plummet to the ground unless the target has it's own fly speed.

And that's it. Flight now has a risk/reward dynamic, which are usually fun and interesting.

[Gritmonger]

I might just rule that they have to use their move action every round to stay airborne - this includes 'hovering' - so even if they don't "move" - they still have to "move" to stay aloft. You don't have to use your move to stay in one place on the ground, or to stay in one place in the water, or to stay clung onto a surface (climbing).

You could also lower the max carrying capacity for flight. For normal ground movement, as small or medium. For flight, encumbrance as if tiny.

[rollingForInit]

It's more than just making sure the enemies can either fly or shoot. It's the fact that every encounter must take place in 3D now; that the nature of exploration changes; and that many obstacles are easily circumvented. It's an added burden on adventure design, which likely explains why they're not allowed in Adventurer's League.

Teleporting Eladrin are a much less serious change in campaign structure, given the limitations of that method of movement.

As I said, I fully understand if soomeone doesn't want them in a game. But keep in mind that Wizards get the Fly spell at level 5, that Sorcerers get a fly speed at level 14, and that Warlocks can Levitate at will from level 9 and forwards. So there are plenty of other ways that obstacles will get circumvented and combat will have to be played in 3D.

Ban the race if you dislike it. I just don't see any reason for letting a player actually use the race, and then nerfing the hell out of the only feature it has. Use it or not. But saying that it's overpowered is just an excuse that sounds like sheer laziness. If you don't want to bother with flight, ban all flight from the game. Just be honest about it so you don't get a Sorcerer at level 14 who's going to fly, and then you go all "no I don't want flying in my game".

[obryn]

As I said, I fully understand if soomeone doesn't want them in a game. But keep in mind that Wizards get the Fly spell at level 5, that Sorcerers get a fly speed at level 14, and that Warlocks can Levitate at will from level 9 and forwards. So there are plenty of other ways that obstacles will get circumvented and combat will have to be played in 3D.

Ban the race if you dislike it. I just don't see any reason for letting a player actually use the race, and then nerfing the hell out of the only feature it has. Use it or not. But saying that it's overpowered is just an excuse that sounds like sheer laziness. If you don't want to bother with flight, ban all flight from the game. Just be honest about it so you don't get a Sorcerer at level 14 who's going to fly, and then you go all "no I don't want flying in my game".
I don't mind it being gated behind higher levels, classes, or resource consumption. It's the always-on-from-level-1 bit that's the sticking point.

It's also IMO by far the strongest racial feature in the game.

[pibby]

It's understandable that for campaign reasons some DMs don't want avian PCs in their campaign as much as other DMs don't want PCs with any or some magic or a race that doesn't need food (Warforged). However it is important to understand that the implications of having a PC with natural flight isn't as bad as people think. Yes, as a DM you'll need to do some extra work to create a challenge for the mentioned PCs but not as much as you think. I don't personally use all the suggestions I make below on flying PCs but they are ideals that I don't think are hard to implement in a campaign.

-PCs trivializing overland travel? Why don't you have avian creatures attack said PCs? There are bandits for roads and feral wildlife offroad so why not?
-Too many fights involve NPCs with no ranged combat capability? What are doing with your life. Give as many of your NPCs ranged weapons if thematically appropriate. This makes the battlefield 3 dimensional instead of 2 dimensional without a need to hate or pick on flyers. Also your PC archers will be happy to not have to visit the store to buy my ammunition.
-Want PCs to go through a maze without a bird's eye view? Have NPC archers or flying creatures in your maze. Your avian PC will soon love total cover.

If there's anything reasonable to be mad about, it's the fact that the race has a movement speed of 50 ft. Woodland Elves can certainly outrun things, but the Aarakocra can outrun even more creatures.

EDIT: Also, grabbing someone and then dropping them 50 ft in 1 turn is impossible since that is technically bull rushing upwards.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Every bad guy having a bunch of longbowmen would get pretty obvious and pretty old pretty fast. Munchkin-wise anything less would be pointless as the flyer could just stay at max range and shoot as many arrows as it takes to win.

[cobaltstarfire]

that's one concern. other concerns would include questions like "why is this claustrophobic creature perfectly happy to spend all its time adventuring in caves and dark, dank, slimy dungeons?" and "if it basically won't adventure unless it's to fight gargoyles or search for wind staff parts, wouldn't that mean that I need to incorporate those things into every adventure to justify this PC's presence?"

I think it'd probably be a better race for adventures that don't take it to those places, or goes very grudgingly (could make for some interesting RP depending on the players).


They don't necessarily have to be searching for wind staff parts, or trying to smash all the gargoyles, I saw those more as hook ideas than anything else. They'd probably end up like kobolds in that they rarely have reason or cause to adventure, but with the right reason/story would.


I am growing increasingly attached to this idea of a fat Aarakocra that can't fly, or only just barely can. I could make it look like a kakapoo or a kiwi or some other adorable flightless bird, who left home to enjoy the tasty bounties of the mortal plane...where it then gets caught up in who knows what and eventually becomes less of a glutton or something.

[eastmabl]

As a DM, I try to avoid banning things outright. If a player wanted to play one, at the very least I would be open to the issue.

However, since they were the only ones who could fly at-will, I'm pretty sure that I would have a discussion with the player about flight First, I would be enforcing encumbrance issues on him or any other player while in flight (for the sake of fun, I handwave away most encumbrance rules until it's clearly unreasonable).

Additionally, we would come to an understandable about what he can pick up while in flight.

[Galen]

I'd give them disadvantage on ranged attack rolls while flying.
EDIT: thought I'd specify that I'd apply that penalty to anyone that is in flight, not just the Ararakocra.
That doesn't mesh well with the fluff of Aarakocra. They are literally creatures of elemental Air. Flight is the natural mode of locomotion for them. This is akin to enforcing a penalty on a shark for being immersed in water.

If you feel the Aarakocra is too powerful for your game, I suggest you just ban it. Alternatively, play a dungeon-crawl game, where flight still has some limited value (overcoming pits and chasms etc), but is not gamebreaking.

[ChubbyRain]

That doesn't mesh well with the fluff of Aarakocra. They are literally creatures of elemental Air. Flight is the natural mode of locomotion for them. This is akin to enforcing a penalty on a shark for being immersed in water.

If you feel the Aarakocra is too powerful for your game, I suggest you just ban it. Alternatively, play a dungeon-crawl game, where flight still has some limited value (overcoming pits and chasms etc), but is not gamebreaking.


Way too many people are afraid of banning things it seems like, or at least admitting to straight up hammer banning X.

I would rather see a hammer ban than a DM that targets a player with a bunch of fiddly rules that will always only apply to that specific player.

[rollingForInit]

Every bad guy having a bunch of longbowmen would get pretty obvious and pretty old pretty fast. Munchkin-wise anything less would be pointless as the flyer could just stay at max range and shoot as many arrows as it takes to win.

And every bad guy having a bunch of soldiers armed with swords isn't ...?

And you're assuming that most encounters will allow a creature to be 600 feet in the air with a Longbow. No indoors combat will allow that. Most dungeons and caves and such certainly won't.

There can be archers, sure. There can also be Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Bards and Warlocks. There can be monsters that can fly. There can be Fighters that throw javelines and axes and stuff.


I don't mind it being gated behind higher levels, classes, or resource consumption. It's the always-on-from-level-1 bit that's the sticking point.

It's also IMO by far the strongest racial feature in the game.

Maybe. Perhaps that's why they only get one racial feature of significance.

[Giant2005]

That doesn't mesh well with the fluff of Aarakocra. They are literally creatures of elemental Air. Flight is the natural mode of locomotion for them. This is akin to enforcing a penalty on a shark for being immersed in water.

If you feel the Aarakocra is too powerful for your game, I suggest you just ban it. Alternatively, play a dungeon-crawl game, where flight still has some limited value (overcoming pits and chasms etc), but is not gamebreaking.

I don't think the Aarakocra are too powerful at all - they only have a single ability that isn't always helpful. In many, perhaps even most situations they are quite literally weaker than every other race in the game.
Imposing disadvantage for ranged attacks while flying isn't about balance, it is about verisimilitude. Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Naturally trying to compensate for the opposing force while maintaining steady flight is near impossible - which is why I don't care by what means the character is flying, that principle should apply to all characters. In lieu of aerial combat rules, we have to adjudicate on what makes the most sense.
Having disadvantage on ranged attacks while in flight makes more sense than having disadvantage on ranged attacks while in melee range.

[Galen]

So your idea of making sense is to pull in Newton's Laws into the game to give a fictional creature Disadvantage while that creature is its natural element.
Sorry, this is just not a school of thought I can subscribe to.


Naturally trying to compensate for the opposing force while maintaining steady flight is near impossibleUnless, perhaps, the creature is literally air-born. Unless being in the air is, for that creature, literally as natural as breathing. Unless that creature is native to the elemental plain of air ... oh, wait...

[Oscredwin]

Every bad guy having a bunch of longbowmen would get pretty obvious and pretty old pretty fast. Munchkin-wise anything less would be pointless as the flyer could just stay at max range and shoot as many arrows as it takes to win.

And while they're plinking away with "as many arrows as it takes to win," how is the rest of the party doing? Basically, if one member of the party of 4 is unkillable, what do they do after the other 3 die? And if the others don't die, is the unbeatable defense actually helping? (same question applies to a moon druid)

Now if the whole party is playing Aarakocra, you'll have an issue. But then it's reasonable to design the game around them (the same way you would change the game if the party was all dwarves).

[Oscredwin]

I don't think the Aarakocra are too powerful at all - they only have a single ability that isn't always helpful. In many, perhaps even most situations they are quite literally weaker than every other race in the game.
Imposing disadvantage for ranged attacks while flying isn't about balance, it is about verisimilitude. Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Naturally trying to compensate for the opposing force while maintaining steady flight is near impossible - which is why I don't care by what means the character is flying, that principle should apply to all characters. In lieu of aerial combat rules, we have to adjudicate on what makes the most sense.
Having disadvantage on ranged attacks while in flight makes more sense than having disadvantage on ranged attacks while in melee range.

This is the same reason in the real world, aircraft can't fire guns with any accuracy.

[Giant2005]

This is the same reason in the real world, aircraft can't fire guns with any accuracy.

In the real world, military aircraft are designed to distribute that opposing force in a manner which doesn't diminish basic function. However it is the reason that in the real world people can't point a bazooka out the side of a helicopter and fire it like they do in the movies.

[Gritmonger]

This is the same reason in the real world, aircraft can't fire guns with any accuracy.

Aircraft don't flap, so in this argument I'd just go with flapping means difficulty being accurate and "hovering" - but not affect other types of "flight" -

[Galen]

In the real world, military aircraft are designed to distribute that opposing force in a manner which doesn't diminish basic function.Right. And in the fictional world, the Aaracokra are designed in a way which doesn't diminish basic function. Because, you know, they are, it bears repeating, literally creatures of elemental air. And having the function of an elemental air creature be diminished while that creature is doing the one thing that's most natural to it, ie. flying, makes no sense.

It makes, in fact, much less sense than a minor violation of Newton's Laws or some other law of physics.

[DireSickFish]

I don't think the Aarakocra are too powerful at all - they only have a single ability that isn't always helpful. In many, perhaps even most situations they are quite literally weaker than every other race in the game.
Imposing disadvantage for ranged attacks while flying isn't about balance, it is about verisimilitude. Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Naturally trying to compensate for the opposing force while maintaining steady flight is near impossible - which is why I don't care by what means the character is flying, that principle should apply to all characters. In lieu of aerial combat rules, we have to adjudicate on what makes the most sense.
Having disadvantage on ranged attacks while in flight makes more sense than having disadvantage on ranged attacks while in melee range.

Whatever so I play a warlock, take the feature that extends my eldrich blast range, take the feat that extends it even more and wallah I can pew pew from super high up and far away with ought worrying about your house-rule at all. I'm in the camp of ban it or allow it. I don't think adding fiddly nerfs to secondary things is the way to go.

[Giant2005]

Right. And in the fictional world, the Aaracokra are designed in a way which doesn't diminish basic function. Because, you know, they are, it bears repeating, literally creatures of elemental air. And having the function of an elemental air creature be diminished while that creature is doing the one thing that's most natural to it, ie. flying, makes no sense.

It makes, in fact, much less sense than a minor violation of Newton's Laws or some other law of physics.

Fair enough. If you want to play that way that is your prerogative - I'm not here telling you how to play, I am merely telling you how I'd rule it. But if you want to chuck out Newton's laws, then you will have bigger problems than flight.

[Giant2005]

Whatever so I play a warlock, take the feature that extends my eldrich blast range, take the feat that extends it even more and wallah I can pew pew from super high up and far away with ought worrying about your house-rule at all. I'm in the camp of ban it or allow it. I don't think adding fiddly nerfs to secondary things is the way to go.

I'm not sure I follow... How does that ignore my house-rule at all? My rule does nothing to inhibit range, so that extra range is meaningless to the discussion.

[charcoalninja]

In the real world, military aircraft are designed to distribute that opposing force in a manner which doesn't diminish basic function. However it is the reason that in the real world people can't point a bazooka out the side of a helicopter and fire it like they do in the movies.

Point of contention a Bazooka is an example of a recoilless weapon. Such weapons fire all of the force out the back of the weapon. There really isn't much recoil in using a rocket propelled grenade.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't see why there'd have to be a give-back somewhere. The Aarakocra only gets flying. That's it. No other abilities. No darkvision. No spellcasting. No skills. Their only purpose is to be able to fly.

The only affect it'll have is that you'll have to design your campaign with his in mind. Obviously it'll break a campaign if it's built under the assumption that no characters can fly at will during lower levels. But if that's the case, just ban the race. It's not so strong that it warrants having the character several levels behind.

I'm much, much more worried about my upcoming adventure with two druids (one of which is a moon druid) than I would be about having an Aarakocra. Can't for the life of me see why it'd break my campaign to the point that I'd have to severely limit it.

Suppose 5e was a point buy system like Gurps. What would you pay for at-will flight? What would you pay for the Elven suite of benefits (Keen Sense, Fey Ancestry, Trance)?

[Giant2005]

Point of contention a Bazooka is an example of a recoilless weapon. Such weapons fire all of the force out the back of the weapon. There really isn't much recoil in using a rocket propelled grenade.

Yeah, the issue with shooting a bazooka out of a Helicopter isn't so much about aiming, it is about still having a Helicopter after the shot has been fired.

[Oscredwin]

Point of contention a Bazooka is an example of a recoilless weapon. Such weapons fire all of the force out the back of the weapon. There really isn't much recoil in using a rocket propelled grenade.

.... as long as you have a fair bit of empty space behind you.

[DireSickFish]

I'm not sure I follow... How does that ignore my house-rule at all? My rule does nothing to inhibit range, so that extra range is meaningless to the discussion.

The disadvantage while being in the air is what I am working around.

[cobaltstarfire]

Aircraft don't flap, so in this argument I'd just go with flapping means difficulty being accurate and "hovering" - but not affect other types of "flight" -

I would imagine they could probably adapt a way to compensate to their bodies movement, like glide, or just have a technique to how they shoot, like loosing the arrow during a downbeat or upbeat or something. Sighting the target probably shouldn't be hard given that they can probably, like most birds keep their head in a particular location independent of the rest of their bodies movement.

That said my mental image of a bird man shooting a bow and arrow is really awkward, seems like it'd be easier to just carry a crossbow


I imagine more often they probably use their flight in combat to close distances quickly and then land, unless they have a polearm or something, but I can already see people banning polearms because they'd "get in the way of the wings" or something. Flying is a pretty dangerous and tricky thing depending on how the DM wants to rule crashing and such.

Probably easiest with a bow to use the flight to get a good vantage, land and shoot from there.

[DanyBallon]

Just on a side note, weren't the Aarakocra wings, their arms too? If I remember well in previous edition, they carried javelin in their talons used in fly-by attack or thrown/dropped on an enemy. Also that would be the reason why they can't use armor in flight and would definitely prevent the flying archer abuse.

[Knaight]

Wait... Is someone on this forum actually pushing for specific and deliberate DM fiat that attacks one (maybe more) players specifically because of their racial features?



Way too many people are afraid of banning things it seems like, or at least admitting to straight up hammer banning X.

I would rather see a hammer ban than a DM that targets a player with a bunch of fiddly rules that will always only apply to that specific player.
Nobody is targeting or attacking a player. They are modifying the rules for an option to prevent it being broken. I'd consider a lot of these rules needlessly fiddly, but that still doesn't turn it into an attack on anyone.


I don't see why there'd have to be a give-back somewhere. The Aarakocra only gets flying. That's it. No other abilities. No darkvision. No spellcasting. No skills. Their only purpose is to be able to fly.
This description completely ignores how useful the ability is. Not every ability is fine just because it's the only race feature. Incorporeality would be all sorts of broken, even as the only thing. Magic immunity would be all sorts of broken, even as the only thing. So on and so forth. Flight is pretty much in the same category, at least for lower levels.

[obryn]

"Flying while pelting you with javelins and other missile weapons" is pretty much entirely within the Aarakocra's wheelhouse, though, isn't it?

[Galen]

Judging by the pic in the EE Player Companion, the hands and wings are completely separate. In fact, the Aaracokra is depicted in-flight, and holding what appears to be a two-handed weapon (glaive?)

[ChubbyRain]

"Flying while pelting you with javelins and other missile weapons" is pretty much entirely within the Aarakocra's wheelhouse, though, isn't it?

Nah...:smallbiggrin:

Aarakocra Bard with Warding Wind, Lightning Bolt, and Sacred Flame.

Flying around like god dang captain planet on steroids.

[mephnick]

I've already banned Drow because I think they should be objectively evil, and Dragonborn because the way they write the race now is ridiculously stupid.

I'll have no problem banning the Aarakocra because they get level 1 at will flight.

Of course, since it's a mechanical issue, I will be open to changes, so I'm reading this thread with interest.

[ChubbyRain]

"Flying while pelting you with javelins and other missile weapons" is pretty much entirely within the Aarakocra's wheelhouse, though, isn't it?

Why not make all flight require concentration?

This goes for everything, from dragons to birds. Sure flying may be second nature but you still need to pay some attention to the wind around you and stuff...

If you lose concentration you start to fall, give a save to not hitting the ground. I've seen birds hit something, fall a bit, flutter around, get their head on and fly away before hitting the ground. Could work nicely with 5e.


Edit

OK maybe not adult dragons but young dragons. Anything high level/CR can give permaflight without concentration.

[Galen]

I'll have no problem banning the Aarakocra because they get level 1 at will flight.

Of course, since it's a mechanical issue, I will be open to changes, so I'm reading this thread with interest.

How about this interpretation: the Aaracokra who live on the prime material plain (as opposed to those who live on the elemental plain of air) are renegades - a sub-tribe cast out of the elemental plains for some kind of ancient transgression. The gift of flight have been taken away from them, and they need to prove themselves before getting it back.

On level 1, the prime-material-plain-dwelling Aaracokra's wings are weak - they can only slow down his fall, the equivalent of Feather Fall, plus Advantage on Athletics checks to make a long jump.
On level 3, the wings get stronger, and the Aaracokra can glide; he cannot gain height, and must drop 5' for each 30' of horizontal distance traveled.
On level 5, the Aaracokra gains 1 minute of true flight; he must complete a Short or Long Rest before using this ability again.
On level 7, the Aaracokra gains unrestricted true flight.

Of course, this would all very much fall under the category of "fiddly" ... I can totally understand if someone was to dislike this "fix". In fact, I'm not even sure I like it myself.

[DanyBallon]

Judging by the pic in the EE Player Companion, the hands and wings are completely separate. In fact, the Aaracokra is depicted in-flight, and holding what appears to be a two-handed weapon (glaive?)

I believe I'll keep the description from older editions. To me they are more interesting as a race that way, fluffwise and would justify the stats in the EE Player companion.
(For those not familiar, do an image search on goole for Aarakocra, and you'll get a good idea of their older look)

[mephnick]

I'm definitely open to racial features growing with level, it has a precedent after all. I'd probably go with something like that, maybe even give another racial bonus.

Flight is just a really huge racial bonus to begin with. I don't think it's offset by getting nothing else.

[M Placeholder]

Just on a side note, weren't the Aarakocra wings, their arms too? If I remember well in previous edition, they carried javelin in their talons used in fly-by attack or thrown/dropped on an enemy. Also that would be the reason why they can't use armor in flight and would definitely prevent the flying archer abuse.

Yes, in all the previous editions of the game, the Athasian Aarakocra (which looked like a North American Vulture in most of its art, even down to a hole through its beak in the Terrors beyond Tyr monster compendium) and the ones in other settings all had wings with claws and hands, rather than a set of wings and a set of arms. There was also no mention of them being creatures of the plane of air.

And here is the art from the Races of Faerun
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/0/0d/Races_of_faerun_-_Aarakocra_-_Raven_Mimura_-_131.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150105184225

And Terrors Beyond Tyr

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/aarakath.gif

[obryn]

I'm definitely open to racial features growing with level, it has a precedent after all. I'd probably go with something like that, maybe even give another racial bonus.

Flight is just a really huge racial bonus to begin with. I don't think it's offset by getting nothing else.
Level-restricting it would have been fine. Gating it behind a feat choice would have probably worked, too.


Yes, in all the previous editions of the game, the Athasian Aarakocra (which looked like a North American Vulture in most of its art, even down to a hole through its beak in the Terrors beyond Tyr monster compendium) and the ones in other settings all had wings with claws and hands, rather than a set of wings and a set of arms. There was also no mention of them being creatures of the plane of air.
They've had a few versions. The Athasian ones hurled javelins with their feet, though; it was their shtick.

[Myzz]

currently in "My World" there are no Aarakocra", but who knows maybe they just havent been spotted, or they could come through a Gate...

And if they were to appear in the world I run, I would apply their own body weight for flying encumbrance purposes...

Along with whatever they attempt to fly with... if that as a basic principle feels unfun. Well by all means play something else.

In my current campaign Players could not choose to be Drow, High Elf, DragonBorn, Tieflings, or DB Sorcerers...

Mostly because those races are/were essentially unknown in the area that the Players were playing. The players in this campaign are going to be discovering Dragonborn races and interacting with Drow on a more permanent scale. ALL the surface elves are wood elves, so thats why no High elves... and since no Dragon Bloodlines exist yet, no DB sorcerers...

[DanyBallon]

Yes, in all the previous editions of the game, the Athasian Aarakocra (which looked like a North American Vulture in most of its art, even down to a hole through its beak in the Terrors beyond Tyr monster compendium) and the ones in other settings all had wings with claws and hands, rather than a set of wings and a set of arms. There was also no mention of them being creatures of the plane of air.


Actually, I believe that the "originates from the plane of air" is a new addition to the Aarakocra. First time I heard about it was in the 5e DMG and/or MM

[Person_Man]

I've DM'd with flying players extensively in 3.X games. It can most definitely change the character of the game from a "low-fantasy" dungeon crawl to a "high fantasy" lateral thinking game. Flight allows the flying player(s) to ignore certain hazards and Skill challenges, can make them faster then some other players, and opens up certain tactics during combat under certain conditions.

But the DM can compensate by giving players challenges and combats with a higher level of complexity and/or difficulty. And many players and DMs prefer such high fantasy games.

So if you choose to keep it out because you prefer to keep a low fantasy game, I fully respect that. Growing up I played a lot of low-mid level 2nd ed AD&D with a very low-fantasy, high danger, you're not getting past this river of lava unless you solve the magic puzzle mentality.

But if you allow it in, I would not suggest nerfing it or adding additional restrictions, because it punishes the player without maintaining the desired low-fantasy character of the game.

Also, if you prefer low-fantasy games, you might also want to consider banning other similar high-fantasy aspects of the core rules, such as Invisible familiars, high level spells, Divine Intervention, etc.

[obryn]

But if you allow it in, I would not suggest nerfing it or adding additional restrictions, because it punishes the player without maintaining the desired low-fantasy character of the game.

Also, if you prefer low-fantasy games, you might also want to consider banning other similar high-fantasy aspects of the core rules, such as Invisible familiars, high level spells, Divine Intervention, etc.
I don't think that necessarily follows. I know I'd be much more concerned from a gameplay/balance standpoint than a flavor low vs. high fantasy one.

[cobaltstarfire]

Well for those who would like to change it so that they get the ability to fully fly at later levels would like something like this work?



Lv1 They can slow their falls with their wings taking reduced fall damage/fall further without damage

Lv5 They can glide X feet, still requires them to jump from a higher place than where they land.

Lv8 They are can fly either fully or only a little bit (not fully fledged yet)

Lv XX If they can fly only a little bit at lv 8 they can fly fully at this level



Come up with fluff appropriate for why they can't fly at lower levels even if they should be old enough to do so. Like keeping with them coming from the plane of air, maybe when they come to the material plane the nature of the open air is different enough to hinder flight until they get used to it or strong enough. Maybe there isn't as strong a "gravity" in the plane of elemental air, making it too exhausting to fly on the material plane, or since there's strong enough wind currents on the elemental plane to stay aloft indefinitely they simply don't have the flight muscles for powered flight without some practice. Maybe they have some magic inherent to them that fades away once they aren't on their home plane and makes flying much more work elsewhere.

[Chronos]

The 3e Raptorans got flight that didn't reach its full potential until higher levels, as did some Dragonborn (you could choose between wings, breath weapon, or enhanced senses). So something like that would probably be fine, though I'd probably make it a bit more limited (later to come online, or subject to some additional restriction, I'm not sure), because the 3e races were balanced against a context where mages could easily get all-day flight, and even mundanes could usually get items of it. Since magical flight isn't as easy in 5e, nonmagical flight probably shouldn't be, either.

[M Placeholder]

Maybe there isn't as strong a "gravity" in the plane of elemental air, making it too exhausting to fly on the material plane, or since there's strong enough wind currents on the elemental plane to stay aloft indefinitely they simply don't have the flight muscles for powered flight without some practice. Maybe they have some magic inherent to them that fades away once they aren't on their home plane and makes flying much more work elsewhere.

Gravity on the Plane of Air is subjective, according to previous editions. A creature chooses which direction is down and objects not under the motive force of others do not move. Considering that there is little solid ground in the plane of air (mostly bits of the plane of earth or plane of magma), I would go with the thermal currents - they can simply glide on the plane of air.

[Gritmonger]

You could always hit them with the claustrophobia clause, and give them an additional disadvantage to checks/attacks when performed indoors or underground. It's in the fluff, just not represented in the mechanics.

[cobaltstarfire]

Gravity on the Plane of Air is subjective, according to previous editions. A creature chooses which direction is down and objects not under the motive force of others do not move. Considering that there is little solid ground in the plane of air (mostly bits of the plane of earth or plane of magma), I would go with the thermal currents - they can simply glide on the plane of air.

That's really cool. I don't know anything at all about the planes other than that they are typically the embodiment of something or another.

I'm kind of thinking as Aarakocra stuck on the material plane under the idea of keeping them from flying early on as being like Condors. They aren't very strong flyers, and typically prefer to jump from a high place and just catch the wind/thermals,. At which point they could just float up there forever if they wanted to. it's really laborious for them to take off straight from the ground (same for things like frigate birds, and albatrosses, could even make sea bird themed sub-races of the Aarakocra maybe).


I'm finding in some ways reducing/changing how they can fly, or imagining reasons why they can't is making them even more interesting to me. Than the initial "oooh cool a bird man!" factor I had.

[Vogonjeltz]

I have just read over the EE players companion, it states in there that the Aarakocra class have the ability to fly, with a flight speed of 50ft at level 1, no cool-down per rest either, therefore it says "As a result, playing an aarakocra requires special consideration by your DM"

What are your thought/restrictions on this?

My thought is that if I allow a player to play an Aarakocra I'd be inclined to review the adventure for places where Flight might come into play. If the player flies to the open window at the top of the tower, I'll have to consider what is behind that window, rather than it just being a description with no further attention paid to it.

I would never throw in additional penalties just because they are using a racial option. For example, the rules on flying movement in combat are clearly delineated on page 191 of the PHB, I don't feel any need to make things worse for someone who gave up other racial options (and the ability to use heavier armors) in order to have a flight mode.

[Wolfsraine]

Bunch of fun sponges in here. Why limit anything? Why not let a player drop someone from 100 ft in the air? Let them build a sniper that shoots from a distance. Anything they use against enemies can easily be used against them. Rolling lots of dice is fun, doing lots of damage is fun. Nerfing abilities for no reason other than you not being able to handle it, is not fun.

In summary, stop being pansies and have some fun.

[mephnick]

Bunch of fun sponges in here. Why limit anything? Why not let a player drop someone from 100 ft in the air? Let them build a sniper that shoots from a distance. Anything they use against enemies can easily be used against them. Rolling lots of dice is fun, doing lots of damage is fun. Nerfing abilities for no reason other than you not being able to handle it, is not fun.

In summary, stop being pansies and have some fun.

I doubt my players would find being picked up and insta-gibbed by a level 1 NPC very fun. I get what you're saying, but killing an enemy isn't the same as killing a PC outside of a specific gaming style. Having to constantly up the ante for the whole party because one character has a powerful ability doesn't usually lead to a great game in my experience.

I could just say "NPC Aarakocra can't pick up PCs, but PC Aarakocra can pick up NPCs.", but that seems a bit weird.

[Shining Wrath]

Bunch of fun sponges in here. Why limit anything? Why not let a player drop someone from 100 ft in the air? Let them build a sniper that shoots from a distance. Anything they use against enemies can easily be used against them. Rolling lots of dice is fun, doing lots of damage is fun. Nerfing abilities for no reason other than you not being able to handle it, is not fun.

In summary, stop being pansies and have some fun.

Fun for who, though? Balance between players is the whole reason for approximately 250 million tier level debates. If the aararocka player's fun comes at the expense of 3 other players who feel outclassed, allowing the aararocka is the fun sponge.

[Wolfsraine]

I doubt my players would find being picked up and insta-gibbed by a level 1 NPC very fun. I get what you're saying, but killing an enemy isn't the same as killing a PC outside of a specific gaming style. Having to constantly up the ante for the whole party because one character has a powerful ability doesn't usually lead to a great game in my experience.

I could just say "NPC Aarakocra can't pick up PCs, but PC Aarakocra can pick up NPCs.", but that seems a bit weird.

I mean, they still have to make the grapple check and most PC's have healthy athletics or acrobatics scores. Even so, if someone is being dropped I'd assume they get a reaction to attemp to hold on to their dropper.

[Wolfsraine]

Fun for who, though? Balance between players is the whole reason for approximately 250 million tier level debates. If the aararocka player's fun comes at the expense of 3 other players who feel outclassed, allowing the aararocka is the fun sponge.

If 3 other players are feeling outclassed by a PC that can fly, it's not the Aarakocras fault. Just saying.

[mephnick]

I mean if I was, say, a paladin or warlock and my high level class abilities included flight..I'd maybe be a little disappointed that Joe gets unlimited flight at level 1.

[ChubbyRain]

I mean if I was, say, a paladin or warlock and my high level class abilities included flight..I'd maybe be a little disappointed that Joe gets unlimited flight at level 1.

Now you know how people who play noncasters feel when they have to go from level 10-20 and get crap compared to what casters get around level 8-10.*

(Mostly throwing numbers out there but you get the point).

[mephnick]

Even magical flight is pretty restrictive in 5e, which makes Aarakocra flight even worse.

[Wolfsraine]

Now you know how people who play noncasters feel when they have to go from level 10-20 and get crap compared to what casters get around level 8-10.*

(Mostly throwing numbers out there but you get the point).


No one is forcing anyone to play a non caster. If they want the abilities so bad at 8-10 then they should play the class that gets them at those levels... The second you start looking at what you don't have is the second you might want to take a step away from the game and go play something else. Everyone can shine in a game regardless of what stats they have or what class/race they are. Use your imagination.

I don't see the issue, and I primarily play rogue/ranger hybrids or heavy hitting melees. I'm currently playing a 5 ranger/3 rogue that just turns things into pin cushions. It's so easy to get advantage between being a woodelf and cunning action (hide) that I can just use sharpshooter every round for the +10 damage and still hit reliably. Couple that with sneak attack, hunters mark and colossus slayer, not to mention my Assassinate ability that I can periodically get off while scouting ahead.

I see all these complaints about caster vs non caster, I have yet to feel inadequate in a combat or non-combat situation next to the party wizard or cleric, who are all also level 8.

[Knaight]

Bunch of fun sponges in here. Why limit anything? Why not let a player drop someone from 100 ft in the air? Let them build a sniper that shoots from a distance. Anything they use against enemies can easily be used against them. Rolling lots of dice is fun, doing lots of damage is fun. Nerfing abilities for no reason other than you not being able to handle it, is not fun.

In summary, stop being pansies and have some fun.
Some people actually like lower powered games. That's a large part of the reason 5e was so toned down relative to 3e, people got sick of it turning into a game where you can wade into armies with next to no worries about getting hurt. Flight being more limited is part of this.

As both a GM and a player, I can confirm that the games which have been the most fun have often been the games with moderately powerful characters, and not the borderline superheroes.


If 3 other players are feeling outclassed by a PC that can fly, it's not the Aarakocras fault. Just saying.
Nonsense. Everyone but one person built their character within a power range that the majority of the group wants, that one last person decided to overshadow all of them.

[ChubbyRain]

No one is forcing anyone to play a non caster. If they want the abilities so bad at 8-10 then they should play the class that gets them at those levels... The second you start looking at what you don't have is the second you might want to take a step away from the game and go play something else. Everyone can shine in a game regardless of what stats they have or what class/race they are. Use your imagination.

I don't see the issue, and I primarily play rogue/ranger hybrids or heavy hitting melees. I'm currently playing a 5 ranger/3 rogue that just turns things into pin cushions. It's so easy to get advantage between being a woodelf and cunning action (hide) that I can just use sharpshooter every round for the +10 damage and still hit reliably. Couple that with sneak attack, hunters mark and colossus slayer, not to mention my Assassinate ability that I can periodically get off while scouting ahead.

I see all these complaints about caster vs non caster, I have yet to feel inadequate in a combat or non-combat situation next to the party wizard or cleric, who are all also level 8.

You missed the point completely.

People like playing noncasters, but level15 should equal level 15.

As it stands now Aarakocra have an ability at level 1 that equals level 17. This iss UE is exactly the same as the one I presented. Levels should mean something and not just be willy nilly.

Its good that you an be a striker, but that is all your character could ever be and a lot of people don't like that. We have played 4e and learned there is more to being a non caster than being a striker.

[Gritmonger]

In summary, stop being pansies and have some fun.

I object to this characterization of Pansies, as the awakened Pansies in my other game are quite fun-loving, and to add to that are very good at tending gardens, especially ones in which they are residents.

[SharkForce]

perhaps the problem is that you think flight is a level 17* ability, rather than the problem being that flight is available at level 1 to a specific race.

yes, it's a high-level sorcerer archetype ability. but then again, sorcerer archetypes are generally pretty unimpressive in the first place at all levels. all their power is tied up in metamagic basically (which i still feel is overvalued, but perhaps i just haven't seen a sorcerer use it properly).

* i'm pretty sure you meant 14, if you're thinking of the sorcerer ability.

[Gritmonger]

perhaps the problem is that you think flight is a level 17* ability, rather than the problem being that flight is available at level 1 to a specific race.

yes, it's a high-level sorcerer archetype ability. but then again, sorcerer archetypes are generally pretty unimpressive in the first place at all levels. all their power is tied up in metamagic basically (which i still feel is overvalued, but perhaps i just haven't seen a sorcerer use it properly).

* i'm pretty sure you meant 14, if you're thinking of the sorcerer ability.

...but really, if you include Broom of Flying, it's a 3rd (or even first) level ability, as it's an uncommon magic item, and has none of the limitations that are on the spell, or a lot of the abilities. You could mimic this with giving a character a Broom of Flying at first level in exchange for picking a feat as a Variant human.

Granted, it could be taken away, but it's just as obvious and just (about) as targetable... and unlike the wings, you can share it around to whomever else wants to use it.

[cobaltstarfire]

Granted, it could be taken away, but it's just as obvious and just (about) as targetable... and unlike the wings, you can share it around to whomever else wants to use it.



Well...you can take away an aarakocra's wings too....it'll hurt but it can be done. :smallbiggrin:

[Gritmonger]

Well...you can take away an aarakocra's wings too....it'll hurt but it can be done. :smallbiggrin:

I'm pretty sure "sharing" at that point is - "Can you pass me a wing? Oh, and a napkin..."

[Broken Twin]

If gatekeeping the ability is really the only issue here, just go with something like this:

Lvl 1: 30ft Flight, but you must end your turn on a solid surface or fall.

Lvl 3: Flight extends to 50ft.

Lvl 5: You can stay airborne.

Still gives the player who wants to play a bird-person the taste of flight from level 1, and it pushes back the power of full flight a bit for the people that are worried it's too powerful. Personally, I'll just be running them as is, but if it becomes an issue then I'll likely institute the above.

[pwykersotz]

I haven't seen anyone discuss yet how interesting it is that we have a player character race that stems from a Monster Manual entry.

Of note that I can see, the MM entry has their land speed at 20ft and their stats are significantly lower than the standard array adjusted for their bonus Dexterity and Wisdom.

Also, hilariously, PC Aarakocra have the language of the same name, and the MM versions just speak Auran. :smalltongue:

[Person_Man]

Bunch of fun sponges in here.

Wait, is being called a sponge an insult now for being soft? I thought it was an insult for taking things from your friends without giving anything back (ie, absorbing free stuff, like a sponge absorbs water)?

[Gwendol]

I haven't seen anyone discuss yet how interesting it is that we have a player character race that stems from a Monster Manual entry.

Of note that I can see, the MM entry has their land speed at 20ft and their stats are significantly lower than the standard array adjusted for their bonus Dexterity and Wisdom.

Also, hilariously, PC Aarakocra have the language of the same name, and the MM versions just speak Auran. :smalltongue:

I noted a few changes way back in the thread. Among those that the PC race lack the dive attack (and can't summon an elemental when grouped).

[Knaight]

Wait, is being called a sponge an insult now for being soft? I thought it was an insult for taking things from your friends without giving anything back (ie, absorbing free stuff, like a sponge absorbs water)?

I think that's the idea. The fun of everyone else is being sponged off, and then subsequently drained somewhere, sucking it out of the game. It's not an idea I even remotely agree with, but I think that's the concept that is supposed to come across.

[ChubbyRain]

If gatekeeping the ability is really the only issue here, just go with something like this:

Lvl 1: 30ft Flight, but you must end your turn on a solid surface or fall.

Lvl 3: Flight extends to 50ft.

Lvl 5: You can stay airborne.

Still gives the player who wants to play a bird-person the taste of flight from level 1, and it pushes back the power of full flight a bit for the people that are worried it's too powerful. Personally, I'll just be running them as is, but if it becomes an issue then I'll likely institute the above.

Same problem though, you have a level 17 ability given to a level 5 player.

Change your level 3 to about level (7-11) and then your level 5 to level (16-20).

I wouldn't mind a race getting things before a class but not in such a huge gap.

You could now argue that a first level spell that last 8 hours (no concentration) can give you flight if you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor and it be balanced.

The designers are already saying it is balanced for flight to be around at first level like this... So why can't magic gives you the same thing (though less time)? Wouldn't that spell also be balanced? If not then why does a race get it at first level?

[Myzz]

Well...you can take away an aarakocra's wings too....it'll hurt but it can be done. :smallbiggrin:

<first Aarakocra to be seen ever in Village Umpteesquat, hears the following whispered as he passes> "Damn, thats a BIG Chicken!".... "Think were gonna need a bigger fryer!" "How much wing sauce do you have again?"...

[cobaltstarfire]

Same problem though, you have a level 17 ability given to a level 5 player.

Change your level 3 to about level (7-11) and then your level 5 to level (16-20).



Hey yeah, that's kind of like what's in my proposed idea for tweaking the Aarakocra.

[pwykersotz]

<first Aarakocra to be seen ever in Village Umpteesquat, hears the following whispered as he passes> "Damn, thats a BIG Chicken!".... "Think were gonna need a bigger fryer!" "How much wing sauce do you have again?"...

♫ He wears a disguise to look like human guys, but he's not a man, he's an Aarakocra! ♫

[hawklost]

♫ He wears a disguise to look like human guys, but he's not a man, he's an Aarakocra! ♫


Aarakocra, what's the matter with you?

You don't act like the other Aarakocra do

You wear a disguise to look like human guys*

But you're not a man, you're a Aarakocra

"I'm telling you, he is a giant bird man!"

"Yea right buddy, your just crazy"

[SharkForce]

Same problem though, you have a level 17 ability given to a level 5 player.

Change your level 3 to about level (7-11) and then your level 5 to level (16-20).

I wouldn't mind a race getting things before a class but not in such a huge gap.

You could now argue that a first level spell that last 8 hours (no concentration) can give you flight if you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor and it be balanced.

The designers are already saying it is balanced for flight to be around at first level like this... So why can't magic gives you the same thing (though less time)? Wouldn't that spell also be balanced? If not then why does a race get it at first level?

sure, just like it would be totally balanced and accepted by all to have a level 1 spell that gives +2 to an attribute with no concentration required at level 1, right? because that's a level 1 ability that numerous races get. that doesn't make it something that's going to be turned into a level 1 spell any time soon though.

[Oscredwin]

Same problem though, you have a level 17 ability given to a level 5 player.



17th level ability for a tempest cleric (who has a full suit of racial abilities and a domain that is unfocused on either blasting or melee), 14th level ability for a dragon sorcerer (who has a very defensively focussed and gets a full set of racial traits), level 1 ability for a Aarakocra (who gets nothing else).

[cobaltstarfire]

sure, just like it would be totally balanced and accepted by all to have a level 1 spell that gives +2 to an attribute with no concentration required at level 1, right? because that's a level 1 ability that numerous races get. that doesn't make it something that's going to be turned into a level 1 spell any time soon though.

I don't think it's fair to compare the ability score increases each race starts with, to a racial ability. It'd probably be better to compare to other racial abilities.

Things like resistances, breath weapons, extra skill proficiencies, and casting ability.

My personally feeling is that flying at lv 1 is fine, but that's because when you throw in the consequences of flying, there's lots of good reasons not to, or to do so sparingly if you can do it at all. Lots of dungeons probably don't even have enough space for an Aarakocra to spread its wings and slow a fall for example, much less fly over a pit.

But I also don't feel too bothered with the idea of trying to work out an agreeable way to gate the flight some to make life a little easier for the DM and prevent drama with fellow players. And there's plenty of people here who can collaboratively come up with something reasonable together.

I think depending on how it's gated though that the GM should probably find some other boon to give the Aarakocra to make up for having their only racial ability of note nerfed/removed/gated.

(I'll also add I'm quite happy to play a mechanically inferior Aarakocra who can't fly for whatever reason, because I'm not as concerned with the mechanics as I am with the role playing and story building for why it can't fly).

[ChubbyRain]

sure, just like it would be totally balanced and accepted by all to have a level 1 spell that gives +2 to an attribute with no concentration required at level 1, right? because that's a level 1 ability that numerous races get. that doesn't make it something that's going to be turned into a level 1 spell any time soon though.

That's exactly my point, your sarcasm and all.

It is not balanced but people will look at what wotc has done and want to balance their stuff based on wotc's choices.

That first level spell I described is balanced versus a racial trait. So if a racial trait can give you said boost then why can't the first level spell? Unless the racial trait is in fact unbalanced.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

That's exactly my point, your sarcasm and all.

It is not balanced but people will look at what wotc has done and want to balance their stuff based on wotc's choices.

That first level spell I described is balanced versus a racial trait. So if a racial trait can give you said boost then why can't the first level spell? Unless the racial trait is in fact unbalanced.

Just because you assert that it's balanced doesn't mean it is. Many racial traits have no spell analogue, and there's no system in place for making such a comparison.

Your spell is optional, able to be selected, prepared, combined, and used if and when it suits a player. The Aarakocra ability is not so discreet, but in fact comes with a lot of extra baggage (slow walk speed, focus on Dex and Wis stats, etc.) and cannot be swapped out after it has been chosen even if some other ability would be more useful in a different situation.

[MustacheFart]

Want a fix to balance them out? Limit the race to only non-spellcasting classes/paths. Say that since the magic of flight was bestowed onto them they lack anything left to be able to cast spells.

Now the race becomes a boon to those playing martial characters who would ultimately be surpassed by their spellcasting companions.

[Vogonjeltz]

If gatekeeping the ability is really the only issue here, just go with something like this:

Lvl 1: 30ft Flight, but you must end your turn on a solid surface or fall.

Lvl 3: Flight extends to 50ft.

Lvl 5: You can stay airborne.

Still gives the player who wants to play a bird-person the taste of flight from level 1, and it pushes back the power of full flight a bit for the people that are worried it's too powerful. Personally, I'll just be running them as is, but if it becomes an issue then I'll likely institute the above.

If you want to meddle in the player's decisions that much, you might want to just veto the Aarakocra entirely and tell them to play a Warlock or Paladin if they want Flight as a feature.

[ChubbyRain]

Want a fix to balance them out? Limit the race to only non-spellcasting classes/paths. Say that since the magic of flight was bestowed onto them they lack anything left to be able to cast spells.

Now the race becomes a boon to those playing martial characters who would ultimately be surpassed by their spellcasting companions.

Yes because that makes all the sense in the world. A fantasy bird person that is filled with the essence of air can't do magic... Because why not...

You still have the problem of level not equally level. It hurts after level 10 for the caster noncasters disparity and it will hurt going level 1 = level 16.

The birdpeoples can become fighters, barbarians, and rogues... But can't become druids? I mean, how does that one make sense?

[pwykersotz]

Yes because that makes all the sense in the world. A fantasy bird person that is filled with the essence of air can't do magic... Because why not...

You still have the problem of level not equally level. It hurts after level 10 for the caster noncasters disparity and it will hurt going level 1 = level 16.

The birdpeoples can become fighters, barbarians, and rogues... But can't become druids? I mean, how does that one make sense?

If you can't make sense of it, you aren't trying. Remember, this is ultimately a game, and the fluff must serve mechanics when talking about balance issues. Simply add the fluff that Aarakocra are poor vessels for channeling magic due to [x reason] and thus they cannot ever cast spells. One reason might be an ancient pact with an elder elemental who stripped the ability from the race, but made those who bow to his will able to summon his servants (the air elemental summoning). But as I said, the reason is only important on an individual GM basis. "Making sense" is pretty subjective. Hence all the simulation disagreements on these very forums. The real question is are you willing to make sense of a mechanical "fix" ?

For what its worth, I think a fix is unnecessary on the whole though. If you want to keep your own game balanced, just say that the race is only allowed for classes and subclasses that don't cast, or as many here say, just don't allow what you aren't comfortable GM'ing.

[ChubbyRain]

If you can't make sense of it, you aren't trying. Remember, this is ultimately a game, and the fluff must serve mechanics when talking about balance issues. Simply add the fluff that Aarakocra are poor vessels for channeling magic due to [x reason] and thus they cannot ever cast spells. One reason might be an ancient pact with an elder elemental who stripped the ability from the race, but made those who bow to his will able to summon his servants (the air elemental summoning). But as I said, the reason is only important on an individual GM basis. "Making sense" is pretty subjective. Hence all the simulation disagreements on these very forums. The real question is are you willing to make sense of a mechanical "fix" ?

For what its worth, I think a fix is unnecessary on the whole though. If you want to keep your own game balanced, just say that the race is only allowed for classes and subclasses that don't cast, or as many here say, just don't allow what you aren't comfortable GM'ing.

I'm not talking about a plot not making sense, I'm talking about mechanically it doesn't make sense to bar one race from being a caster based on their racial ability mechanics.

What doesn't make sense is why a DM would have to specifically fiat and target a race/pc. Why go on a witch hunt versus casters? Obviously if the ability is balanced then any class can use it.

But if it isn't balanced then no one should have it. At least not at the level in which it is unbalanced. There is a reason druids can't cast spells while in bird form and why bird form takes a few levels to obtain (and doesn't last 24 hours).

Don't try to boost noncasters by punishing casters (and specific builds). Boost non casters by giving them cool options that are balanced and fun to use. One of the issues with 4e is that to boost noncasters they punished casters. You don't make one thing good by bringing down another thing, you make both awesome and go from there.

[themaque]

Did someone mention a feat requirement? This would limit their ability to fly to lvl 4 and has president now with the Deep Gnome.

Would be nice to add another small boon for them to have until then.

[Giddonihah]

I will probably keep them in the banned list unless I feel like a campaign would benefit from early flight. In general I dislike having flight as its encourages players to think in more dimensions, and I don't have a good method for that extra dimension when I use a grid.

I imagine a full party of lvl 1 Aarakocra could be an interesting game. Encounters would certainly be unique.

[Battlebooze]

I imagine a full party of lvl 1 Aarakocra could be an interesting game. Encounters would certainly be unique.

All of them playing rogues. Dressed in black, fluttering through the air, delivering silent death to those who threaten their chosen city.
The flying raven ninja squad!

That really would be fun!

[rollingForInit]

Did someone mention a feat requirement? This would limit their ability to fly to lvl 4 and has president now with the Deep Gnome.

Would be nice to add another small boon for them to have until then.

But that makes no sense. You have a race of winged, flying creatures ... where only a tiny minority of experienced adventurers can actually fly? The rest are stuck walking walking? It makes sense for features that some members of the race have (e.g. Deep Gnome magic), not for something that's inherent to the race. Sure, it works from player only perspective, but it makes no sense whatsoever if you start to think about the actual fluff of the race and how it works. Unless you mod the race heavily.

[pwykersotz]

I'm not talking about a plot not making sense, I'm talking about mechanically it doesn't make sense to bar one race from being a caster based on their racial ability mechanics.

What doesn't make sense is why a DM would have to specifically fiat and target a race/pc. Why go on a witch hunt versus casters? Obviously if the ability is balanced then any class can use it.

But if it isn't balanced then no one should have it. At least not at the level in which it is unbalanced. There is a reason druids can't cast spells while in bird form and why bird form takes a few levels to obtain (and doesn't last 24 hours).

Don't try to boost noncasters by punishing casters (and specific builds). Boost non casters by giving them cool options that are balanced and fun to use. One of the issues with 4e is that to boost noncasters they punished casters. You don't make one thing good by bringing down another thing, you make both awesome and go from there.


Now you know how people who play noncasters feel when they have to go from level 10-20 and get crap compared to what casters get around level 8-10.*

(Mostly throwing numbers out there but you get the point).


I don't follow your assertion. You say in one place that noncasters get crap options and aren't balanced with casters. Then you say that developing a race just for noncasters is punishment and a witch hunt? Which is it? Either the classes are balanced and your earlier quote is misleading, or they aren't and it make sense to make a mechanical adjustment to fix it. :smallconfused:

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Artificial restrictions on flight for a race of fliers is really harsh. I'd rather deal with OP than with that.

[kaoskonfety]

Built in "restrictions"
- cannot fly in med-heavy armour (basically a build restriction, you are now playing caster or various dex focused fighting styles) interesting, but not crippling
- unique movement options mean you will often be "split" from the party to some degree
- "cannot hover" (this has been sighted and I haven't noticed it refuted) causing opportunity attack "issues"
- aren't there rules for you losing control and now BEING grappled and falling?
- seriously don't get put to sleep, held, knocked to 0 hp, grappled (say, by a summoned baddie), petrified, stunned... etc. while in the air, you will fall and die, doubly so at lower levels (where this is supposedly the biggest problem). The fly spell comes with featherfall built in for this reason.


Advantages:
- 3d movement out the door (it is pretty sweet)
- its pretty darn fast (I feel a bit too fast - 40'? maybe 45'?, but oh well, I'm not a famous game designer)
- maybe the grapple/ fly up drop the guy thing, if all the bads suck at grappling and the character has focused on Strength (when they cannot wear Medium/heavy armor, meaning they are Dex and Str dependant in what appears to be a melee character whose main strength is "staying in the air out of range"...)


I'd be nudging people away from this not because its OP, but because I might accidentally knock them unconscious to death. Because if they are dropping people to their deaths they are going to be a priority target for the conditions that mess up their flight/a grappler and cause them to take fall damage FAST and or get ganged up on. I'd totally allow it, but I'd make sure the player knows what they are getting into and that it is non-cake walk.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Note that anything that knocks down will also bring down a flier.

[Broken Twin]

If you want to meddle in the player's decisions that much, you might want to just veto the Aarakocra entirely and tell them to play a Warlock or Paladin if they want Flight as a feature.

Excuse me? How is it "meddling in the player's decisions" to modify a race? I already stated that I was fine with the race as is (if you finished reading my post, it was literally about three sentences down). The tweak was for people who think that flight at level 1 is overpowered, and my suggestion was by far the tamest modification in this thread so far.

--------------

Seriously though, making a race whose hat is flight unable to fly until late levels is ridiculous. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of their population will never get that high. And that's the only racial feature they get. Their flight is significantly less powerful than magic flight, so comparing the two as if they were equal is ridiculous.

Actually, can someone quote the exact text from the flight spell so we could compare? Don't have access to my books right now.

[jkat718]

Actually, can someone quote the exact text from the flight spell so we could compare? Don't have access to my books right now.

Here you go:


FLY
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a w ing feather from any bird)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You touch a willing creature. The target gains a flying speed of 60 feet for the duration. When the spell ends, the target falls if it is still aloft, unless it can stop the fall.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 3rd.

[cobaltstarfire]

But that makes no sense. You have a race of winged, flying creatures ... where only a tiny minority of experienced adventurers can actually fly? The rest are stuck walking walking? It makes sense for features that some members of the race have (e.g. Deep Gnome magic), not for something that's inherent to the race. Sure, it works from player only perspective, but it makes no sense whatsoever if you start to think about the actual fluff of the race and how it works. Unless you mod the race heavily.

Earlier in the thread I had come up for some reasons for why a race couldn't fly from level one regardless of age and flight experience gained on their home plane (for Gm's who want to gate flight) You can make it make sense really easily particularly since Aarakocra come from a different plane of existence that follow slightly different rules from the material one.

And if they originate on the material plane it'd probably be best to suggest lv1 aarakocras are always young and not quite fledged yet, with older ones either being late bloomers, or out of shape for anything more strenuous that short bursts of powered flight and gliding on the air currents.



So we keep mentioning giving Aarakcra's who are unfortunate enough to be gated or banned from flying some boons, what sorts of boons do we think would work for them? My brain isn't quite on yet so I can't think of anything off hand.

[dancrilis]

I am not seeing the difficulty with the Aarakocra having flying really, sure it is powerful - but not really game breaking.

One of the things that seems game breaking is the whole grapple thing but really that is more to the disadvantage to the Aarakocra than the person they grapple (or at least as much).

A few different scenarios:

1. The Aarakocra grabs someone and flys up and releases them in midair, the released person takes a dexterity check at what the DM determines an appropriate difficulty based on the footing to avoid falling - as the footing cannot really be regarded as tricky it should be simple enough (DM discretion on how difficult it is/isn't to keep things balanced for the game). (page 176)

2. The Aarakocra grabs someone and tries to fly up, however that would make the grapplee be flying and as they have a speed of 0 in a grapple they automatically fall the 0 feet, this effectively keeps the the Aarakocra from actually moving them in a vertical manner. (page 191)

I think either of these interpretations would really deal with this issue from a RAW perspective - I would personally think the second is the best to adopt as it seems less generally abusable but whichever you like.

The core disadvantage for the Aarakocra is that if something grapples them when they are flying they will take the full falling damage, and if they grapple someone while in the air they will fall with them and take the full damage (as the fall seems to exist outside of combat time and occurs instantly the Aarakocra has no time to let go).

[Broken Twin]

Spell Text

Thanks jkat, you rock.

Okay, so, advantages/disadvantages.

Flight Speed: Spell wins out.
Duration: Racial wins out.
Cost: Replaces racial abilities, consumes 3rd lvl spell slot. One is apermanent cost, one is a temporary cost. Honestly going to say tie here. Probably the biggest point of contention.

Flight comes online as an option at 5th level. My house rule would work fine if you really wanted true flight to wait until level 5 to come online.

Also we're comparing a single spell to an entire race.

-----------------

On another tact, comparing to another race (wood elf):

W.Elf gets:

Darkvision
Keen Senses
Fey Ancestry
Trance
Elf Weapon Training
Fleet of Foot
Mask of the Wild

Aarakocra gets:

50ft Flight

Personally, I would be hard pressed to decide which one I'd want more. Flight is a versatile ability, but all the options the W.Elf gets makes it a strong contender.

[Myzz]

PHB 195: Moving a Grappled Creature = move speed is halved.

I'd rule that you can NOT dash at all while grappling someone... some Cunning Action does not work to increase your move speed. Farthest you could grapple, move then drop someone would be 25 ft. So 2d6 on a failed Athletics or Acrobatics check, with only half on success....

what would be awesome is a Aarakocra to grapple someone, fly up with them but not drop them at the end of their turn. The Grapplee to win Grapple check on their turn and Hurl the Aarakocra to the ground...

[Galen]

I know RAW is probably not on my side here, but I'm going to say that if the birdman can't fly in medium armor (a breastplate only weighs 20 lb), then I wouldn't allow him to pick up people and fly with them.

[themaque]

But that makes no sense. You have a race of winged, flying creatures ... where only a tiny minority of experienced adventurers can actually fly? The rest are stuck walking walking? It makes sense for features that some members of the race have (e.g. Deep Gnome magic), not for something that's inherent to the race. Sure, it works from player only perspective, but it makes no sense whatsoever if you start to think about the actual fluff of the race and how it works. Unless you mod the race heavily.

That's easy fluff to work around. I don't think it's to outrageous.

but honestly? I would just allow the race as is or just ban the race for that campaign. I don't see it being that difficult for me to circumvent.

[Oscredwin]

but honestly? I would just allow the race as is or just ban the race for that campaign. I don't see it being that difficult for me to circumvent.

That seems like the best solution for DMs who think the race is unbalanced.

[TrexPushups]

PHB 195: Moving a Grappled Creature = move speed is halved.

I'd rule that you can NOT dash at all while grappling someone... some Cunning Action does not work to increase your move speed. Farthest you could grapple, move then drop someone would be 25 ft. So 2d6 on a failed Athletics or Acrobatics check, with only half on success....

what would be awesome is a Aarakocra to grapple someone, fly up with them but not drop them at the end of their turn. The Grapplee to win Grapple check on their turn and Hurl the Aarakocra to the ground...

Or use them as cushion to soften your own fall :)

[Myzz]

Or use them as cushion to soften your own fall :)

Well... you want to do both... Hurl them to the ground 2d6... Land on them 2d6 (to both) ... then use your additional attack actions if any to attack a prone target!

[Rowan Wolf]

It is very abusable by any grappler build. Specially a Monk, with extra movement and step of the wind. At level 2, just with step of the wind, you are looking at a 6d6 per round, with the guy falling prone. You can also go up even more before dropping them. On the second round you can use your other ki point for going more 90 feet up, for 15d6 damage. And the best that they can do is to escape your grasp and take less falling damage. At level 4 you grab mobile. At level 5 you can grapple 2 different opponents.

This race is crazy for any campaign that does not take place mostly in dungeons.

Halflings everywhere are terrorized of AArakocra scourge.

[BootStrapTommy]

It is very abusable by any grappler build. Specially a Monk, with extra movement and step of the wind. At level 2, just with step of the wind, you are looking at a 6d6 per round, with the guy falling prone. You can also go up even more before dropping them. On the second round you can use your other ki point for going more 90 feet up, for 15d6 damage. And the best that they can do is to escape your grasp and take less falling damage. At level 4 you grab mobile. At level 5 you can grapple 2 different opponents. You can't grapple Huge or bigger. A weakness which could be exploited easily. Plus you're talking about a high Strength build on a Dex based class.

And their AC with flight is limited, without magic, to 13 + Dex.

[RustyArmor]

Only read first few post so don't mind if anything gets repeated. But I don't see much a problem with them in fact I think they are rather poor race and don't see many people even using them. Sure they can fly, who doesn't like to fly? This is great at 1st, 2nd, 3rd level but quickly gets mimic by spells, magic items, etc. So the only real feature you have as a race quickly becomes obtainable by all the other races with their own racial powers.

As far as being certain classes, like the monk sample, there will always be issues like that with D&D because Race/Class combos are better then others. Its just a problem with how stats and racial traits work in about every edition of D&D.

[bokodasu]

When I first saw them, I figured I'd ban them outright. But after thinking about it and reading the objections... I'd allow it, IF the player abides by all fluff. Don't like the fluff? Play a different race.

Specifically, the whole "they really, really hate not being in the air" thing. If you're playing the all-wilderness campaign, they'll completely overshadow everyone else (well, until everyone else dies and rolls up new birdy characters). If you're doing any campaign that involves, I dunno, diplomacy or infiltration or dungeon crawling or any of the other things that happen in D&D, the claustrophobia is probably going to outweigh their immunity to pit traps.

And also "Age. Aarakocra reach maturity by age 3. Compared to humans, aarakocra don’t usually live longer than 30 years." There are monsters and wild magic effects that age you - I just had a gnome PC age 60 years on a series of bad rolls. Had he been one of these flappers, he'd be dead. Of old age, which there's no coming back from. That's... pretty mean, and not something I'd usually do as a DM, but if you're willing to take that chance, then flight must be worth it to you, so I say go for it.

[mephnick]

This is great at 1st, 2nd, 3rd level but quickly gets mimic by spells, magic items, etc. So the only real feature you have as a race quickly becomes obtainable by all the other races with their own racial powers.

Magic items that let you fly may never show up in the game. The spells all require concentration which means you can't use your character fully if you want to fly. Even then, it's not at will and permanent. Aarakocra have none of these setbacks. It's a huge advantage.

[themaque]

Magic items that let you fly may never show up in the game. The spells all require concentration which means you can't use your character fully if you want to fly. Even then, it's not at will and permanent. Aarakocra have none of these setbacks. It's a huge advantage.

It's a huge advantage, but not inherently game breaking in of itself.

Situationally, yeah game breaking. If someone goes out of their way to be a powergamer, you would probably have problems with that guy anyways. It's a gun, fine in the right hands, dangerous in others.

I find it interesting and would provisionally allow it in my games. Bokodasu gave us a good litmus test, if they are playing it for the race or the flight.

[rollingForInit]

Specifically, the whole "they really, really hate not being in the air" thing. If you're playing the all-wilderness campaign, they'll completely overshadow everyone else (well, until everyone else dies and rolls up new birdy characters). If you're doing any campaign that involves, I dunno, diplomacy or infiltration or dungeon crawling or any of the other things that happen in D&D, the claustrophobia is probably going to outweigh their immunity to pit traps.


A player in my group once played a druid who hated being underground. Our DM at the time triggered a cave-in when we were in a dungeon, and that combined with some tension between the characters resulted in the druid panicking so much that she attacked the party and the rest of the PC's had to kill her.

I wouldn't expect and Aarakocra to go suidical simply from being underground ... but I'd definitely expect that level of role-play for the weakness the race comes with in situations like that.

[Chronos]

Correction: Sane Aarakocra can't stand to be underground. No sane birdman would ever go raiding a lich's ancient tomb.

But then again, no sane human would ever go raiding a lich's ancient tomb, either. Nor would any sane dwarf, and they like being underground. PCs are all, to one degree or another, insane: It's part of the job description. So is it really remarkable that one particular PC is, by the standards of his race, slightly less sane?

[ChubbyRain]

Correction: Sane Aarakocra can't stand to be underground. No sane birdman would ever go raiding a lich's ancient tomb.

But then again, no sane human would ever go raiding a lich's ancient tomb, either. Nor would any sane dwarf, and they like being underground. PCs are all, to one degree or another, insane: It's part of the job description. So is it really remarkable that one particular PC is, by the standards of his race, slightly less sane?

I was about to add something like this.

Just because the race typically doesn't like something (or does) doesn't mean your character has to be a stereotype about it. I normally help players make atypical characters so to not get the same old boring types each game.

[pwykersotz]

I was about to add something like this.

Just because the race typically doesn't like something (or does) doesn't mean your character has to be a stereotype about it. I normally help players make atypical characters so to not get the same old boring types each game.

Of course a similar boringness happens when a person refuses to play weaknesses to their character, even ones that are only minorly inconvenient and are easy to adopt.

[ChubbyRain]

Of course a similar boringness happens when a person refuses to play weaknesses to their character, even ones that are only minorly inconvenient and are easy to adopt.

Never said they didn't have other weaknesses. However every X race having the same weakness over and over is pretty pathetic and gets boring.

I already have a player who wants to play an Aarakocra that is afraid of heights, another a gnome whose background makes him afraid of statues without eyes, and an air genesai who is afraid of ever becoming invisible because she thinks she will become one with the air and cease to exist.

[pwykersotz]

Never said they didn't have other weaknesses. However every X race having the same weakness over and over is pretty pathetic and gets boring.

I already have a player who wants to play an Aarakocra that is afraid of heights, another a gnome whose background makes him afraid of statues without eyes, and an air genesai who is afraid of ever becoming invisible because she thinks she will become one with the air and cease to exist.

Yep, you never said they didn't, but you never said they did until now so I was just supplying the other side of the coin. :smallsmile:

[cobaltstarfire]

Magic items that let you fly may never show up in the game. The spells all require concentration which means you can't use your character fully if you want to fly. Even then, it's not at will and permanent. Aarakocra have none of these setbacks. It's a huge advantage.

Most dungeons, forests, caves, and buildings are not spacious enough for something with 10+ft wingspan to spread its wings and fly, so no it's not always a huge advantage. In those situations the spell or class ability would be better.

I think whether fly (spell) or flying (racial) are better in terms of getting knocked out of the air is highly dependent on context.

[Myzz]

Nets and Bolos specifically designed to target winged humanoids would be quite standard in any area with a large and consistant presence of said winged humanoids... I envision the ballistae from How to Train your Dragon 2...

[ChubbyRain]

Nets and Bolos specifically designed to target winged humanoids would be quite standard in any area with a large and consistant presence of said winged humanoids... I envision the ballistae from How to Train your Dragon 2...

To bad the 5e weapon system is abysmal.

[Gritmonger]

Nets and Bolos specifically designed to target winged humanoids would be quite standard in any area with a large and consistant presence of said winged humanoids... I envision the ballistae from How to Train your Dragon 2...

There are nets in the PHB - not bolos, but I'd be curious to see a write-up of them. If they go like I think they'd go - target an opponent, save or be immobilized at range - it could be deadly for Aarakocra if they take all that fall damage...

Bolo - medium or smaller only, range 20/60, DC10 Str or restrained - a flying creature unable to move (restrained) must fall unless its flying is not due to wings or other appendages.

[Rowan Wolf]

Seem like a lot of effort in an 'arms race'-like fashion, why not just ban them if you don't like the idea of players with flying characters.

[DanyBallon]

As for myself, I don't see any reason to ban them, they have plenty of restrictions already built-in. And as for those who fear that they'll be shooting arrows and spells from the air, I'll just remove the 5e graphic representation and use the ones from previous editions, as nowhere in the Aarakocra description (MM and EE player's handbook) it is said that they have both wings and arms (I know, nowhere it says otherwise either, but they're years and years of material backing my point :D). So this way, they'll be limited to what they can carry in their talons, no spell casting with somatic requirements while flying, no bow, but effective javelin use. Also I'll allow them to lift anything or anyone as long as it won't be over a light load. I think this is a simple fix that keep the flavor of the race. :)

[Vogonjeltz]

Excuse me? How is it "meddling in the player's decisions" to modify a race? I already stated that I was fine with the race as is (if you finished reading my post, it was literally about three sentences down). The tweak was for people who think that flight at level 1 is overpowered, and my suggestion was by far the tamest modification in this thread so far.

Tweaking races to interfere with the player choice of race is by definition meddling. Sorry if I didn't state it clearly somehow, but I thought it was a straight forward point.

[cobaltstarfire]

Tweaking races to interfere with the player choice of race is by definition meddling. Sorry if I didn't state it clearly somehow, but I thought it was a straight forward point.

It's only meddling if it isn't without permission, for all you know the DM and player are working together to find a way to make things work. Which I think is the main reason people are trying to work out ways to change the Aarakocra.

I know I'd rather work with the DM to get to play the race I want, rather than having it flat out banned. I find the process fun, and it's interesting to work out backstory and such to go with it.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's only meddling if it isn't without permission, for all you know the DM and player are working together to find a way to make things work. Which I think is the main reason people are trying to work out ways to change the Aarakocra.

I know I'd rather work with the DM to get to play the race I want, rather than having it flat out banned. I find the process fun, and it's interesting to work out backstory and such to go with it.

Permission doesn't play into the meaning of the word, meddling is an accurate description whether it's there or not.

[cobaltstarfire]

Permission doesn't play into the meaning of the word, meddling is an accurate description whether it's there or not.





-to become involved in the activities and concerns of other people when your involvement is not wanted

-to change or handle something in a way that is unwanted or harmful

- to interest oneself in what is not one's concern : interfere without right or propriety


Poking at something is only meddling when it's unwanted, or without permission.

[ChubbyRain]

Poking at something is only meddling when it's unwanted, or without permission.

A player may compromise with a DM knowing they have to or not play the race at all. Yet seem like they are completely willing when they really are not.

The DM could still be meddling even if a player doesn't call the DM out on it.

Actually if you want to play X race and the DM gives you an alternative of allow him or her to change said race or play a new race is in fact meddling because the DM is forcing you to choose a different race either way.

Just because you feel you need to go along with the meddling doesn't mean it isn't meddling. Player wants X but DM says they get Y or Z. The player didn't want Y or Z and thus the DM is meddling.

Not that meddling is always bad, but to call it by any other name would be sugar coating it.

[hawklost]

A player may compromise with a DM knowing they have to or not play the race at all. Yet seem like they are completely willing when they really are not.

The DM could still be meddling even if a player doesn't call the DM out on it.

Actually if you want to play X race and the DM gives you an alternative of allow him or her to change said race or play a new race is in fact meddling because the DM is forcing you to choose a different race either way.

Just because you feel you need to go along with the meddling doesn't mean it isn't meddling. Player wants X but DM says they get Y or Z. The player didn't want Y or Z and thus the DM is meddling.

Not that meddling is always bad, but to call it by any other name would be sugar coating it.

Ummm, a DM is always 'meddling' by that logic. By actually creating a story for the players, he is meddling. By throwing encounters at them and controlling the encounters he is meddling. By asking for any DC he is meddling. I am not sure that word means what you think it means.

PS: Meddling by definition requires unwanted or harmful. If the player does not want the DM to officiate the DMs game, then the player is doing it wrong, not the DM.

[Vogonjeltz]

PS: Meddling by definition requires unwanted or harmful.

Bolded for emphasis.
Why are we still questioning this again? Having to acquiesce to play the race means giving permission whether you want to or not. That means it's unwanted; Nerfing the racial features is definitionally harmful. So on both counts you've defined this activity as meddling.

[pwykersotz]

Bolded for emphasis.
Why are we still questioning this again? Having to acquiesce to play the race means giving permission whether you want to or not. That means it's unwanted; Nerfing the racial features is definitionally harmful. So on both counts you've defined this activity as meddling.

It's questioned because people don't like being stigmatized in the negative for collaboration between player and DM to come to a mutually agreeable way to play. A better word would be tweaking. Modifying. Adjusting. Any of those and more. Harmful is subjective in this context.

[ChubbyRain]

Ummm, a DM is always 'meddling' by that logic. By actually creating a story for the players, he is meddling. By throwing encounters at them and controlling the encounters he is meddling. By asking for any DC he is meddling. I am not sure that word means what you think it means.

PS: Meddling by definition requires unwanted or harmful. If the player does not want the DM to officiate the DMs game, then the player is doing it wrong, not the DM.

Never said the Dm wasn't always meddling. However when you use the rules as they appear in the book then the DM is not meddling with character creation. The DM is expected to meddle with the player character within the game, however it is not expected (or at least not before 5e) that the DM will meddle with creation of the PC. It does say in the rules that you need to ask you DM for permission to use specific races, it doesn't say "well your DM may change things about the race instead of straight out banning the race".

If a player says "I want to play X" and the DM gives an alternative then the DM is in fact doing something unwanted since the player wanted X not X-2.

Is it wrong for a DM to meddle? No, not in general. However when you allow X you better allow X and not allow X and then do things to make a player wish they didn't choose X.

P.S: Any game does not belong to just the DM. That is a horrible way of thinking and will lead to DM versus Player. The game is a combination between player and storyteller. A DM without any players has just as much NO GAME as players without a GM. People need to get the attitude that a game master is somehow better than the players out of their heads, I've seen many new players leave the hobby because that term goes to people's heads and it can lead to disgusting consequences.

[Galen]

The DM could have just said "No Elemental Evil content" and be done with it, would that have been better? Or is that also "meddling" ?

[Gritmonger]

The DM could have just said "No Elemental Evil content" and be done with it, would that have been better? Or is that also "meddling" ?

So can I roll some dice? Like 4d6 drop the lowe...
MEDDLING!

But what kind of world are we..
MEDDLING!

I don't get...
MEDDLING!

So, wait - exactly how am I supposed to play?

USE IMAGINATION> YOU WIN

That - doesn't seem very..
MEDDLING!

[Vogonjeltz]

It's questioned because people don't like being stigmatized in the negative for collaboration between player and DM to come to a mutually agreeable way to play. A better word would be tweaking. Modifying. Adjusting. Any of those and more. Harmful is subjective in this context.

Harmful to the race option isn't subjective though.

I do get the impression that posters are feeling sensitive to the word meddle more than they are objecting to the reality that it describes.

[Demonic Spoon]

Never said the Dm wasn't always meddling. However when you use the rules as they appear in the book then the DM is not meddling with character creation. The DM is expected to meddle with the player character within the game, however it is not expected (or at least not before 5e) that the DM will meddle with creation of the PC. It does say in the rules that you need to ask you DM for permission to use specific races, it doesn't say "well your DM may change things about the race instead of straight out banning the race".

If a player says "I want to play X" and the DM gives an alternative then the DM is in fact doing something unwanted since the player wanted X not X-2.

Is it wrong for a DM to meddle? No, not in general. However when you allow X you better allow X and not allow X and then do things to make a player wish they didn't choose X.

P.S: Any game does not belong to just the DM. That is a horrible way of thinking and will lead to DM versus Player. The game is a combination between player and storyteller. A DM without any players has just as much NO GAME as players without a GM. People need to get the attitude that a game master is somehow better than the players out of their heads, I've seen many new players leave the hobby because that term goes to people's heads and it can lead to disgusting consequences.

The original usage of the word "meddle" that spawned this whole thing was in regards to the Aarakocra which absolutely do not appear in the book. By default, Aarokocra are not a character option and DM intervention is required for them to be available as a choice.

[ChubbyRain]

The original usage of the word "meddle" that spawned this whole thing was in regards to the Aarakocra which absolutely do not appear in the book. By default, Aarokocra are not a character option and DM intervention is required for them to be available as a choice.

Player comes to the DM: Can i use this race X.

DM: Yes but... You have to change this, this, and this.

Player: Oh, well I'll play another race then. OR Oh, well not what I wanted but I'll give it a try.

Either way the DM is meddling unless they say yes to the race as printed in the book.

It's ok to say no and it's ok to say yes with conditions. However that doesn't mean you won't be meddling. Meddling is meddling no matter what type of spin you want to put on it. If a Player asks to use a specific item (X) and the DM changes the mechanics (or even fluff) of said item (X) then that change is meddling because the player wanted to play item (X) not play item (x-3).

[pwykersotz]

Player comes to the DM: Can i use this race X.

DM: Yes but... You have to change this, this, and this.

Player: Oh, well I'll play another race then. OR Oh, well not what I wanted but I'll give it a try.

Either way the DM is meddling unless they say yes to the race as printed in the book.

It's ok to say no and it's ok to say yes with conditions. However that doesn't mean you won't be meddling. Meddling is meddling no matter what type of spin you want to put on it. If a Player asks to use a specific item (X) and the DM changes the mechanics (or even fluff) of said item (X) then that change is meddling because the player wanted to play item (X) not play item (x-3).

A rose by any other name, eh? I disagree. Words have complex meanings. Your tautology circular definition doesn't exactly hold water. And as to your example, they might very well have wanted only A where A+B+C=X. That's where discussion and adjustment come in.

[hawklost]

Never said the Dm wasn't always meddling. However when you use the rules as they appear in the book then the DM is not meddling with character creation. The DM is expected to meddle with the player character within the game, however it is not expected (or at least not before 5e) that the DM will meddle with creation of the PC. It does say in the rules that you need to ask you DM for permission to use specific races, it doesn't say "well your DM may change things about the race instead of straight out banning the race".

If a player says "I want to play X" and the DM gives an alternative then the DM is in fact doing something unwanted since the player wanted X not X-2.

Is it wrong for a DM to meddle? No, not in general. However when you allow X you better allow X and not allow X and then do things to make a player wish they didn't choose X.

Really?

-So all those splat books in Dnd 3.x that existed that DMs said "No, if you use this it will break the game" were the DMs not meddling because it only started in 5e?
-Or any house rule the DM has like "No Drow"
-things like "You are restricted to spells in the PHB plus X splat book for character creation, we will discuss what other spells you might possibly learn in the game once it starts"
- "I don't think that a pirate works for this campaign, we can change it to a land pirate since the campeign is on the Elemental Plane of Earth"
- "No, you may not have that combination of spells unless we tweak them some because last time you had that combo you ruined the game for everyone else, no one but you wants you to have that so in fairness to others in the game I have to either forbid them or tweak them, your choice"

I swear I remember many times in DnD 3.x these types of comments, but I guess then it wasn't the DM meddling but actually legitimate calls by a DM for a campaign they are running.

And Sorry, the Campeign is run (and possibly even designed and created) by the DM. The players are in the world that the DM created but it is still his world, he runs 99.9% of everything. Its true he shouldn't be 'against' the players in a 'I win' sense, but he is supposed to keep the world alive and turning and if something the Players attempt to create breaks that, he should and is expected to say no or tweak it to fit the world created.

Situation:
DM Creates a world with only magic being discovered 100 years ago because of random reason
Player X wants to play a Wizard Elf who has been studying magic for 300 years (Failure on Player Part, he must change his creation)
Player Y wants to play a Warforged. DM did not have warforged in the campaign so either DM has to add them, DM has to modify the warforged to fit his campeign or player Y must change
Player Z wants to play a Kender. DM tells him he doesn't want someone who randomly steals from party members but will allow it if the Kender is tweaked to steal from anyone but close allies.

All those cases the DM has a right and responsibility to the campeign world to do what is correct, Tweaking something is acceptable if needed, it is not harmful. a Negligent DM is far more harmful to the players than one who actually attempts to work with them. The game does not belong to the DM, but the world and how it runs does. Players do not get to pick anything and demand it into the world. If it doesn't fit the setting/style of the game, the DM and player are both responsible for working out what



P.S: Any game does not belong to just the DM. That is a horrible way of thinking and will lead to DM versus Player. The game is a combination between player and storyteller. A DM without any players has just as much NO GAME as players without a GM. People need to get the attitude that a game master is somehow better than the players out of their heads, I've seen many new players leave the hobby because that term goes to people's heads and it can lead to disgusting consequences.

And the other way works too. I have seen many people refuse to DM because of attitudes like that. You are advocating just as much the Player vs DM mentality when you say that anything the DM wants/needs to change to fit a campaign is terrible. The DM isn't meddling in a players choice when they offer alternatives, they are attempted to balance the fun of all players with the style of game that they offered.

[ChubbyRain]

And the other way works too. I have seen many people refuse to DM because of attitudes like that. You are advocating just as much the Player vs DM mentality when you say that anything the DM wants/needs to change to fit a campaign is terrible. The DM isn't meddling in a players choice when they offer alternatives, they are attempted to balance the fun of all players with the style of game that they offered.

Not at all, I'm advocating that the game belongs to everyone that sits down at the table. If your friends don't like that they aren't overlord supreme then I'm very glad they refuse to DM.

Taking player's into account when you DM is a very essential part of the game, most problems with games comes from DMs who run games as if they are overlord supreme and their word is law. Be it they make a paladin fall for reasons outside the player's choice or they make up random houserules throughout the game.

If you sit down respecting everyone at the table as equals then the game goes much better. Players may not have the same amount of decisions to make as the DM but that doesn't mean the DM shouldn't take their opinions seriously or work them into the game in some way.

[hawklost]

Not at all, I'm advocating that the game belongs to everyone that sits down at the table. If your friends don't like that they aren't overlord supreme then I'm very glad they refuse to DM.

Taking player's into account when you DM is a very essential part of the game, most problems with games comes from DMs who run games as if they are overlord supreme and their word is law. Be it they make a paladin fall for reasons outside the player's choice or they make up random houserules throughout the game.

If you sit down respecting everyone at the table as equals then the game goes much better. Players may not have the same amount of decisions to make as the DM but that doesn't mean the DM shouldn't take their opinions seriously or work them into the game in some way.

So you advocate a DM modifying a Race or Class if it better fits within the game. Perfect, then why did you argue against it and call it meddling?

[themaque]

Not at all, I'm advocating that the game belongs to everyone that sits down at the table. If your friends don't like that they aren't overlord supreme then I'm very glad they refuse to DM.

Taking player's into account when you DM is a very essential part of the game, most problems with games comes from DMs who run games as if they are overlord supreme and their word is law. Be it they make a paladin fall for reasons outside the player's choice or they make up random houserules throughout the game.

If you sit down respecting everyone at the table as equals then the game goes much better. Players may not have the same amount of decisions to make as the DM but that doesn't mean the DM shouldn't take their opinions seriously or work them into the game in some way.

SO, the GM should listen to players opinions, but has final say. If the players want a banned race, a good GM hears them out, but has final say in the matter. There might be both mechanical and story reasons for banning a race. If the GM alters a player race, players can take it or leave it. But if all the players hate the idea or his changes make something unplayable the GM should reconsider or discover why. The game should be fun for everyone.

The GM's JOB is to meddle with the rules then. But so long as everyone has at least a voice, and everyone is having a good time, then everything should be kosher.

Anyone Disagree with this rough outline?

[IncredibleThulk]

I see no reason to limit the flying ability, or disallow the use of ranged weapons or spells, or give players disadvantage. Actually, I see no reason why the Aarakocra would be OP or need any change. Flying is literally the only thing of significance the race has going for it. Limiting it just makes it worthless.

Allow players to fly any way they want with it. Let them shine during some combats, where they're almost untouchable. Let them be awesome. The players will enjoy that.

But also introduce more flying enemies. Melee monsters with wings. That'll make life tougher for it. Pity the flying ranger archer who's suddenly attacked by two melee monsters in air, 50ft away from any allies. Especially since they have to move continuously, meaning they've the choice of either taking opportunity attacks or falling and taking damage. It doesn't have the hover ability, after all.

Have more archers and spellcasters. They can still target the Aarakocra.

Many fights will take place indoors, in dungeons or in forests with thick canopies. In any of those places, flying will be useful, but severely limited.

Really, trying to limit the Aarakocra's flying ability just sounds like laziness. I haven't tried it yet, but if you know there'll be one of those in the party, just design encounters with that in mind. If you dislike flying, disallow the race.

Hear hear, this is the perfect attitude for Aarakocra. Flight is as much of a danger as it is a benefit. Especially considering the points you'd made. Well said!

[Sigreid]

Late to the thread but IMO the biggest drawback to someone playing one is if they actually role play the race. Meaning no grasp of personal property and more importantly severe claustrophobia.

[Finback]

They are as strong as you make them. They don't get bonus to strength, but with strength 15 they already can lift 225 pounds. Once they get to 20 Str they can lift 300 pounds, which is about 2 medium sized creatures.

I would posit there is a big difference between lifting while standing on the ground, and lifting when in flight.

[PloxBox]

I see no reason to limit the flying ability, or disallow the use of ranged weapons or spells, or give players disadvantage. Actually, I see no reason why the Aarakocra would be OP or need any change. Flying is literally the only thing of significance the race has going for it. Limiting it just makes it worthless.

Allow players to fly any way they want with it. Let them shine during some combats, where they're almost untouchable. Let them be awesome. The players will enjoy that.

But also introduce more flying enemies. Melee monsters with wings. That'll make life tougher for it. Pity the flying ranger archer who's suddenly attacked by two melee monsters in air, 50ft away from any allies. Especially since they have to move continuously, meaning they've the choice of either taking opportunity attacks or falling and taking damage. It doesn't have the hover ability, after all.

Have more archers and spellcasters. They can still target the Aarakocra.

Many fights will take place indoors, in dungeons or in forests with thick canopies. In any of those places, flying will be useful, but severely limited.

Really, trying to limit the Aarakocra's flying ability just sounds like laziness. I haven't tried it yet, but if you know there'll be one of those in the party, just design encounters with that in mind. If you dislike flying, disallow the race.

coming in a bit late to the party, but I'm the same way. Design encounters to bee fun but challenging; not restricting and tedious.

[Isaire]

So I haven't seen a single example of flight being overpowered yet, or how it would seriously change an adventure. Taking the two games I've played, LMoP and a custom one, I can't even think of any times where flight would have caused a major problem, and in both we went past level 5, so could have had flight were it so important.

Sure, when trying to sneak into a house, you could use fly to land on the roof. That just removes spotlight time from you, as you now have to wait while everyone else tries to join you. Hardly amazing. And this is the biggest problem right - you can do things, and maybe you can give advantage to others, but most of the time you could do that with the help action anyway.
Hunting animals? Being able to see from above might help, depending on forest cover. We had one fight against an airborne foe, but not many dex builds would have wanted to go up by themselves to fight in melee with it, making ranged attacks from the ground more effective. We climbed a mountain in a blizzard - definitely don't want to fly through that.
Really, flight is most effective for.. flight ;) when your allies are all dying and you want to get the hell out of dodge and leave them to their fate...