Arcane Trickster vs MC Rog/Wiz

[Myzz]

So recently I played a MC Rog/Wiz...

was originally going to play a single classed Arcane Trickster... but looking over how the class progressed... I would rather have been am Assassin/Transmuter, so that's what I made. Started as 1 Rogue, then added 1 Wiz. Started Play as L2 = 1/1.

Plan was to level from 1/1 to Assassin 3/Wiz1, then Pick up Wiz 2: 3/2, then check to see how valuable that ASI was needed before deciding. Eventually would be Assassin 5/Transmuter X. But Assassin 5 might come real late...

SO My question is of the 2 choices... Pure Arcane Trickster or Rogue/Wiz MC, which would you prefer and why?
(don't need to go assassin like I did, nor transmuter)

[Myzz]

My choice as Assassin/Transmuter (or the spell casting rogue in general) was due to party composition. They lacked an arcane caster and a skill monkey, AND I did not want to play Bard (which admittedly would have been the optimal choice).

The adventure was HoTDQ, so I wanted to be able to help the party with some decent DPR while providing coverage on the skill monkey front.

After evaluating the spell selection I would have as an Arcane Trickster (lackluster at best) and limited... I chose to instead MC Rogue and Wizard. My selection of Transmuter was based at looking at the bonuses I would get... Diviner, Evoker, Transmuter, and Necromancer were my top choices... Diviner however, after a few levels was meh... Evoker started good, but then just seems decent (not sure I'd Overchannel that much, and play style was a little different then I was imagining). Transmuter started decent, but then just gets better, Wizard having a resurection woohoo... And Necro did not fit the party (2 Druids and a Ranger + a Tempest Cleric...) SO Transmuter and Sorcerer Stone ftw!

Unfortunately for me, I was introduced to the party not as a Harper Agent, but as an agent for the Order of the Gauntlet... Trying to live up to that role as an assassin, pretty much nullified Assassinate. AND prior to the TPK, my character realized that letting potential enemies even speak was too dangerous for his health, and was about to be on his way out of the Order... By the time we hit level 4, 2 of the party had left, so we were down to 3: Me, Tempest Cleric, and Moon Druid. The 3 of us were no match for 4 CR8 Assassins = TPK, even though we didn't start the fight... I just ignored the blubbering and posturing and threw a couple gold at the Inn Keeper and headed upstairs to "my room", prior to acquiring the stairs, I was accosted by an Assassin who rolled low enough that one of his attacks missed due to Shield. Next round since I started hurt, and he rolled high enough to bypass Shield, I was Insta Killed.

[Drakefall]

I suppose it really depends on what I wanted out of the character.

If I wanted a skillmonkey caster bard (I love me some bard) would indeed be the ideal choice, as you pointed out, but a half-elf wizard with a background granting thief tool proficiency and a decent dexterity would probably work handily enough depending on which skills you'd like to monkey. If I wanted a rogue with a bit of backup casting I personally like the idea of Arcane Trickster X/Wizard 1, for some ritual action.

That's not what you asked though so let me answer your question properly.

Given what you wanted to do with the character, in the same situation I'd go with the Rogue/Wizard MC.

As above I'd take arcane trickster for my rogue and a single level of wizard to start off with. I'd take illusionist for the synergy it has with rogue skills and what not, though when it comes to specialisations I imagine the better ones in this regard are the ones that give you the most potent abilities the earliest as your wizard levels will be limited at least in some fashion. Then I guess I'd see what I wanted more of as I level up. More rogue levels would likely be the more optimal choice, but if optimisation ain't that important and I wanted/needed more magic then I'd take some wizard levels as I felt like it. The problem with this though is that pretty much every rogue level gives you something awesome so it might be difficult to find the space for any wizard levels.

P.S.
A skilled, magical killer working for the Harpers sounds pretty cool and thematic. Why were you lumped into the Order of the Gauntlet? They're an awesome faction because Lawful Good guys are awesome, but certainly aren't a good fit for that concept. Did your DM do a silly?

[Joe the Rat]

Pure Arcane Trickster would be best paralleled with a MC Rogue/Illusionist or /Enchanter, based on spell options... and even then, you'll get better spell focus from the wizard. But straight AT gives you more roguishness - SA dice, sooner to evasion, more ASIs.

For what you were doing, going MC was the best option. If you planned on sticking to just the spells available to the AT... Multiclassing would still get you better casting. There would be some benefits to taking Rogue(AT) X / Wizard (Transmuter) X, such as the boat-load of additional cantrips and getting a few out-of specialty spells that are always on hand, and that extra 1/3 level of spellcasting to add to your spell slots. The trade off is losing some of the non-casting versatility the other two rogue archetypes offer.

Going pure AT would be more about being a Rogue with a few magic tricks, rather than an arcanist with skills.

[Gwendol]

Agreed: AT/Wizard (ill/trans) seems like a solid choice for a rogueish wizard. Due to the MC rules it is generally better to MC with synergy, rather than picking classes that forces you to spread your abilities. If you roll however, ignore that advice.

[Easy_Lee]

One thing I would say in opposition to a multiclass Rogue Wizard is that the damage will suffer. Unlike multiclassing with certain classes, such as fighter, the Wizard doesn't really offer any new damage options. If that doesn't bother you, then no big deal. I would definitely keep Rogue levels to a minimum, picking up only what I need, if I was going to do this. That gives you the most casting.

[Myzz]

Yeah I had decided that since our group had, at the point I was making my level 4 decision (L3 Rogue Archetype choice), that specializing in Wizard end game would have been the way to go. SO just enough Rogue levels to get uncanny dodge, eventually.

Which would have meant none of the really cool Arcane Trickster stuff... ONLY acquiring Mage Hand Legerdemain, which is cool and all, but quite weaksauce... BUT I would have had more spell slots.

I think dipping Wiz for Arcane Trickster (assuming a 2 level Wiz dip), Diviner is a MUCH MUCH Better choice than either Illusion or Enchantment.


L2 Hypnotic Gaze
Action, 1 creature within 5 ft that can see or hear you, Wisdom Save or be charmed until the end of your next turn. On subsequent turns can spend your action to maintain this effect, extending duration until the end of your next turn. Effect ends if the creature is ever more than 5ft from you, or the creature can neither hear nor see you. Usable 1 per Long rest.

(Kinda weak imo, burns actions instead of concentration and its the weak charm stuff and has a continuing range issue)


L2 Improved Minor Illusion
Minor Illusion doesn't count against the number of cantrips known. Can create BOTH a sound and an image.

(better than enchantment for sure)


L2 Portent
When finish a Long Rest roll 2d20's and record results. You can replace any attack roll, ability check, or saving throw made my you or a creature you can see. MUST choose to do so before the roll is made. Can use each of the d20 results only once.

(as long as your rolling either really good or really bad, this is awesome. for mediocre rolls this becomes mediocre)

Sculpt spells from Evoker wouldn't be bad either, but you'd HAVE to use your out of school AT spells on AE dmg spells...

Illusion school becomes an AWESOME choice for an AT only if you go to L6 Wiz, for Malleable Illusions...

Enchanter is only Good when it gets to L6 for instinctive Charm (once per long rest redirect an attack that hits you to a different target, MUST target closest excluding you and itself with multiple targets of equal range it gets to choose...

The only synergy imo is half cost of adding spells of those schools (BUT since your spell book spells will be limited by WIZ level, its not nearly as important)... and could be argued, this would be the best reason to NOT go Illusion and Enchantment. Your AT spells known will be nearly all Illusion and Enchantment spells, no reason to even bother putting those into your spell book when you can. Where as your Wizard will want to put non-Illusion non-Enchantment spells in spell book for the levels that can go in...

[Gwendol]

Ok, so ranking schools for a Wiz/Rog MC:

Up for consideration:

Illusion, Enchantment, Divination, Transmuter, Conjurer

Dropped (?):
Necro, Evoc, Abj

I guess it depends on what kind of rogueish wizard one wants to play... Even Abjuration or Evocation can play a role, though likely less of a go-to choice than illusion or enchantment.

[Easy_Lee]

One thing of note about mage hand legerdemain is that it technically allows for bonus action object usage. Under some interpretations, it effectively functions as an upgraded version of the thief feature fast hands. It can be fun if used right, though it obviously doesn't have the sheer DPR potential of assassination.

The fact that arcane trickster counts as 1/3 caster for determining spell slots available is a significant factor as well, in my opinion. With that in mind, I personally would recommend arcane trickster for the build. But it's completely up to preference, of course.

Edit: careful how much you post from the PHB that isn't in the free PDF. I don't know exactly how much we're allowed to quote, so just making a friendly reminder.

[Myzz]

The fact that arcane trickster counts as 1/3 caster for determining spell slots available is a significant factor as well, in my opinion. With that in mind, I personally would recommend arcane trickster for the build. But it's completely up to preference, of course.

IF I had been making a L5 character... I probably would have agreed with you about going 3AT / 2 Wiz... but having to play through those levels... I figured Assassin would be much prefered.

My plan was to sit back and use Shortbow to Assassinate stuff. BUT that only happened the first encounter after gaining Assassin... every other encounter was thrust on us from an RP perspective where I wouldnt have just gone and ganked someone to start combat, trying to live up to ht tenants of the Order of the Gauntlet... but after getting knocked out a few times, my character figured that honor and fair fighting was for chumps and those that wanted to die early, so was moving away from those tenants when our TPK occurred. ANd after the party dwindled... I kind of became a move up front kind of fighter, due to helping distract targets in combat (give advantage to the other PC's).

Thinking back on it, AT still might have been the way to go... BUT if I had to do it over... I'd just have gone bard. The group I joined was a new group for me with, essentially 3 new RPG'ers. I did not want my laziness as a bard to ruin their judgement of how a good bard is played. I have played with some amazing Bard's either as minstrels or story tellers... I know my limits and I am not even close to being that in depth... (for instance I ONLY play the radio as an instrument).

[Person_Man]

I don't really see much synergy between them. Taking Wizard levels nerfs the Rogue's damage (and possibly delays or denies them access to their best abilities; Cunning Action, Assassinate or Mage Hand Legerdemain, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion). Taking Rogue levels nerfs the Wizard's spells.

So I would play a strait Rogue or strait Wizard.

Having said that, as Easy_Lee noted, a lot depends on how your DM handles Mage Hand Legerdemain matters.

its theoretically a hugely flexible ability. Planting poison on the pommel of an enemy's weapon (or in the food someone is eating) before combat, planting a caltrop in someone's boot, planting a clearly stolen item on a target and then (while under a disguise) telling the town guards you saw them steal it, disarming traps without standing near them (in case you fail), activating a previously disarmed trap so that it goes off on an enemy, Bonus Action use of potions, caltrops, applying poison, hunter’s trap, oil, holy water, ball bearings, healer’s kit, (which can be very important with the Healer Feat), and so on.

On the flip side, Mage Hand is still an Action to cast and has a Verbal and Somatic component, potentially revealing your position if you're hiding and attempt to cast it if your DM pays attention to such things, which basically nerfs 90% of the cool trickiness that comes with the ability.

[Myzz]

Arcane Trickster doesn't get 3 level spells until level 13.

Going pure AT delays attaining those spell slots for use until level 13. (at which point you also gain the use of a level 3 spell).

MC'ing AT with Wiz (assuming 5 AT) gets you those slots at 5AT/3Wiz. And the Ability to cast L3 spells at 5AT/5Wiz, 3 levels sooner... At the loss of delaying Sneak Dice, Evasion, ASI's, Expertise, Magical Ambush and Versatile Trickster. While completely eliminating the possiblity of Spell Thief, Stroke of Luck, and Elusive...

You could work out other Scenarios...

my character case would have been Asn3/Wiz5 to reach those same spells, AND not be limited by spells known vs Spellbook.

I 'think' if you want to play a Caster with some sneaky skill monkery... That MC wizard/rogue is the way to go, excepting Just being a bard. Heck Wizard/Bard would be a decent MC as well...

Arcane Trickster seems more of a Rogue with extremely limited spell casting, but a few cool tricks...

[Person_Man]

Arcane Trickster seems more of a Rogue with extremely limited spell casting, but a few cool tricks...

This is exactly correct. Don't think of the Arcane Trickster (or the Eldridge Knight) as a spellcaster. It has very few spells per day, with slow progression, from a very limited spell list. It plays just like a Rogue that happens to dabble in magic, which is as it should be.

Similarly, don't think of a Wizard with a few Rogue levels as a replacement for a Rogue. Without Sneak Attack progression you won't have the same effectiveness with at-will damage, you won't be nearly as tanky without Uncanny Dodge or Evasion, you'll be good at a narrower range of Skills, and your Bonus Action Cunning Action (and maybe Mage Hand) will be competing with Bonus Action spells for use.

[Gwendol]

Agreed, the proposition is to build a rogueish wizard, not really replacing an arcane trickster. Sneak attack is not very important, but the rogue skills and skill uses are.

[calebrus]

If wiz is your focus, two levels of rogue is all you want or need (for cunning action).

If rogue would hypothetically be your focus, it is my belief that there are two good break points:
--level 7 wiz: basically doubles your spells available and gets 6th level slots (if I recall correctly) while retaining 7d6 sneak attack. Seven level wiz multi makes an arcane trickster much more magical while keeping the rogue feel throughout. This is more the classic arcane trickster.
--level 1 wiz: grants a handful of extra spells prepared & 1st level rituals (both of which make you much more versatile), and only loses the cap. One level wiz dip makes an arcane trickster extremely versatile for little cost.

[Easy_Lee]

If wiz is your focus, two levels of rogue is all you want or need (for cunning action).

If one takes two levels, one may as well take a third for arcane trickster. This adds some versatility and spells, hence options, as well as qualifying for the 1/3 caster rule to make up for any lost spell slots.

[calebrus]

If one takes two levels, one may as well take a third for arcane trickster. This adds some versatility and spells, hence options, as well as qualifying for the 1/3 caster rule to make up for any lost spell slots.

The lost spell level is moot.
He can take rogue 3 and get one "caster level," a couple of 1st level spells, and a 2nd d6 sneak attack (which is basically useless on a heavy wiz build), or he can take another wiz level, get that same "caster level" and get appropriately leveled spells.
+1d6 sneak attack and some 1st level spells, or appropriately leveled spells.
Rogue 3 is almost worthless in comparison.

[Easy_Lee]

The lost spell level is moot.
He can take rogue 3 and get one "caster level," a couple of 1st level spells, and a 2nd d6 sneak attack (which is basically useless on a heavy wiz build), or he can take another wiz level, get that same "caster level" and get appropriately leveled spells.
+1d6 sneak attack and some 1st level spells, or appropriately leveled spells.
Rogue 3 is almost worthless in comparison.

Mage hand legerdemain is far from worthless, and the gained cantrips and spells from AT are similarly useful.

[Joe the Rat]

If one takes two levels, one may as well take a third for arcane trickster. This adds some versatility and spells, hence options, as well as qualifying for the 1/3 caster rule to make up for any lost spell slots.

Indeed. In terms of spell slots, rog 2/wiz X and rog(AT)3/wiz X-1 end up with the same count, and you are looking at one fewer spells prepared for a handful of 1st level always prepared, and extra cantrips. And one more hit point (woo). The question then becomes whether the difference between Wiz17 (9th level knowable) and Wiz18 (Spell Mastery) as a capstone is worth the trade. If your game goes that far.