Decisive strike monk build

[Warrnan]

So I'm wanting to do a heavy hitting strength based prizefighter type of unarmed attacker. The decisive strike feature + aoos seemed like a natural fit. We don't use ToB or Psionics but I usually grab the 3000 gold item for a level 1 stance once I get the money. Don't ask. Lol.

I've read many threads saying "just play swordsage or tashalator". I understand that optimizing non-casters is like putting lipstick on a pig, but I think this can be a fun slugger build even if it doesn't beat out a leap attack barbarian for damage numbers.

For me the main problem with monk is the low base attack. The only idea that springs to mind is hammerfist + power attack and lots of fighter for feats working towards 2handed damage feats and AOO feats. Going to grab knockdown, mage slayer, backstab, and karmic strike for sure maybe fist of the pharaoh for some AOE knockdown stunning action. Stand still for stuff too strong/tough for me to trip/stun.

So far it looks like monk2/fighter4. Boy it sounds horrible when I realize I'm depending on tier 5 classes. Perhaps some dungeon crashed action too. That sounds like a mustached brawler.

Basically I want to make this dude. http://www.smosh.com/smosh-pit/memes/best-overly-manly-man-meme

Thanks in advance for your advice!

[Karl Aegis]

Scout might be something to look in to. You can use your standard action in one round to start a decisive strike and then bob, weave and flip your way to the enemy and deliver a devastating uppercut, using your standard action to finish your decisive strike. Skirmish adds a tiny bit of bonus damage to your uppercut, but it isn't enough to compete with pounce charging leap attackers.

[Warrnan]

Hmm. I hadn't considered scout. Interesting idea. Thanks. :)

I was clueless about the split full round action as well. Wow.

[Flickerdart]

There's a rather enjoyable combo you can do with a handful of feats:

Step 1: Decisive Strike attack. You will deal double damage, which triggers...
Step 2: Snap Kick! Make a second unarmed attack, also for double damage, which has an additional chance of triggering...
Step 3: Knockdown! You trip as a free action, activating...
Step 4: Improved Trip! You will deal another double damage once you've tripped them.
Step 5: When they try to get up, they provoke another AoO and you hit them again, still for double damage.

You can then tack Shadowpounce on top of this - use your Swift action to Shadowpounce (full attack, each for double damage) and then an Immediate action right after you end your turn to Shadowpounce again. However, this needs a metric buttload of resources (Shadowlord and Shadowcaster dips, specifically) so you might not want to go for it.

[lsfreak]

Scout might be something to look in to. You can use your standard action in one round to start a decisive strike and then bob, weave and flip your way to the enemy and deliver a devastating uppercut, using your standard action to finish your decisive strike. Skirmish adds a tiny bit of bonus damage to your uppercut, but it isn't enough to compete with pounce charging leap attackers.

You can't split full-around actions like that except in weird circumstances (you're a zombie, surprise rounds) unless you're using houserules.

EDIT: Wait, can you even split things up like this? There's partial charges but I'm not finding the rules on splitting up a full-round action into two standards.

[Darrin]

Step 1: Decisive Strike attack. You will deal double damage, which triggers...
Step 2: Snap Kick! Make a second unarmed attack, also for double damage, which has an additional chance of triggering...
Step 3: Knockdown! You trip as a free action, activating...
Step 4: Improved Trip! You will deal another double damage once you've tripped them.
Step 5: When they try to get up, they provoke another AoO and you hit them again, still for double damage.


Invisible Fist ACF + Planar Touchstone: Oxyrhynchus would give you another attack.

[Karl Aegis]

You can't split full-around actions like that except in weird circumstances (you're a zombie, surprise rounds) unless you're using houserules.

EDIT: Wait, can you even split things up like this? There's partial charges but I'm not finding the rules on splitting up a full-round action into two standards.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#startCompleteFullRoundAction


It's why flurry of blows sucks and why decisive strike is infinitely better.

[Hiro Quester]

You would need a belt of battle or some other way of getting extra actions.

Edit: Ninja'd

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#startCompleteFullRoundAction

It's why flurry of blows sucks and why decisive strike is infinitely better.

I had no idea you could split up a full round action into two standard actions in successive rounds. Hmm.....

[Warrnan]

Good input everybody. Anyone else have ideas? I think I'm looking at monk2/rogue3/fighter15 or prestige classes after ftr4.

[emeraldstreak]

I've read many threads saying "just play swordsage or tashalator". I understand that optimizing non-casters is like putting lipstick on a pig, but I think this can be a fun slugger build even if it doesn't beat out a leap attack barbarian for damage numbers.


Put enough unarmed strike cheese into it and you'll outdamage the barbarian. But you'll have to go for a charger build.

For a Decisive Strike build, I'd still recommend some basic unarmed strike boosters, and reach.

[Baroknik]

You could also look into picking up Factotum so you can Decisive Strike multiple times in one round.

[bootzin]

You could also got for Iaijutsu Focus
Anyone may use it (it's not trained only) and can get you up to 9d6 extra damage. It's 3.0 though
I once did a build withou any spell caster levels, and I don't remind putting any psionic a either
It made some use of ToB though, but basically it used 2 levels in a monk with both invisible fist and decisive strike ACF, carmendine monk feat, factotum 3 for brains over brawn, and focused entirely on INT and DEX.. (Dumping even CON with Fairy Mysteries Initiate feat)

My final damage output was over 1200..

Also, the drow fighter variant could get your DEX to damage against flat footed foes, which are needed for Iaijutsu anyway

[Flickerdart]

You could also got for Iaijutsu Focus
No, you can't - an unarmed strike cannot be drawn, because you can't sheathe it.

[Baroknik]

No, you can't - an unarmed strike cannot be drawn, because you can't sheathe it.

There's a joke here somewhere about monks using any part of their body as unarmed strikes... But I think that may best be left for a BoEF thread

[bootzin]

I know, I isn't mean IF with unarmed strikes though, but I thought about some sort of TWF with his hand and quickrazor or smth

[Flickerdart]

I know, I isn't mean IF with unarmed strikes though, but I thought about some sort of TWF with his hand and quickrazor or smth
TWF would do nothing, since Decisive Strike is a full-round action.

[bootzin]

You're right, still, mercurial strike flat foots people on AoO

[Eskil]

You could also got for Iaijutsu Focus



No, you can't - an unarmed strike cannot be drawn, because you can't sheathe it.

Decisive Strike works with any monk special weapon.

[Seerow]

Decisive Strike works with any monk special weapon.

But what does that have to do with Iajutsu focus?

[Eskil]

But what does that have to do with Iajutsu focus?

You can perform iaijutsu strikes with them?

So, even if you cannot make a Decisive Iaijutsu Strike unarmed, you can do it with a sai or butterfly sword.

[Zaq]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#startCompleteFullRoundAction


It's why flurry of blows sucks and why decisive strike is infinitely better.

That . . . I never knew that was possible. That's really weird. I've somehow missed that rule in all my years of playing this game.

What else can that rule be used for?

[Flickerdart]

You can perform iaijutsu strikes with them?

So, even if you cannot make a Decisive Iaijutsu Strike unarmed, you can do it with a sai or butterfly sword.
So you're now wasting money on a weapon, wasting a feat on Quick Draw, wasting actions to sheathe the weapon, wasting already-scarce skill points invested in a skill associated with a dump stat, and wasting reliable bonus unarmed strike damage (which gets multiplied) to deal a pittance of precision damage that doesn't multiply in the rare instance you manage to catch someone flat-footed.

Yeah, go ahead, invest in iaijutsu.

[Eskil]

So you're now wasting money on a weapon, wasting a feat on Quick Draw, wasting actions to sheathe the weapon, wasting already-scarce skill points invested in a skill associated with a dump stat, and wasting reliable bonus unarmed strike damage (which gets multiplied) to deal a pittance of precision damage that doesn't multiply in the rare instance you manage to catch someone flat-footed.

Yeah, go ahead, invest in iaijutsu.


Or power attack two-handed with a quarterstaff, or throw a (maximized, empowered, fire) shuriken.

My point is that Decisive Strike works with all monk weapons, not just unarmed strikes.

[kaffalidjmah]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#startCompleteFullRoundAction


It's why flurry of blows sucks and why decisive strike is infinitely better.

I am serious, i have read the thred 4 time i can't find it (i may be tired, 8 hour magic tournament today)

EDIT: whoa, i didn't see it quoted..i mean the "full round action split" stuff

[lsfreak]

It's right there in the quote, the link takes to directly to Start/Complete Full Round Action. Also on page 142 of the PHB (at least in my printing).

[kaffalidjmah]

Got it, i was seatching in the full round, but is in the standard, now i got it.

IT, the spelling of the rule clearly ban the full attack action to be completed (or started) but the decisive strike is a full round action but not a full attack action, so you can use it easily, right? Like i start the full round action and move. Next round i move near you and complete the full round action, punch in your face (and a decisive one too) followed by snap kick and maybe other stuff. Am i right?

[bootzin]

So you're now wasting money on a weapon, wasting a feat on Quick Draw, wasting actions to sheathe the weapon, wasting already-scarce skill points invested in a skill associated with a dump stat, and wasting reliable bonus unarmed strike damage (which gets multiplied) to deal a pittance of precision damage that doesn't multiply in the rare instance you manage to catch someone flat-footed.

Yeah, go ahead, invest in iaijutsu.

First of all, you don't need to invest not even a single rank on IF for it to work, and even without ranks and a +0 CHA mod, you may still deal +3d6 extra damage which is not precision damage.

Secondly, how often do monsters act before a monk? He has a high Wis, which leads to a somewhat high listen/spot, usually he goes for a mid high DEX which means mid high Initiative. And whenever it is the first round of a combat and someone hasn't acted yet, he is flat footed.

Thirdly, even if you have a negative CHA, you can still deal up to +2d6 extra damage for free simply because your opponent is flat footed and you've just drawn your weapon. I mean it +2d6 for free, no investment at all, only one extra dice roll.


IT, the spelling of the rule clearly ban the full attack action to be completed (or started) but the decisive strike is a full round action but not a full attack action, so you can use it easily, right? Like i start the full round action and move. Next round i move near you and complete the full round action, punch in your face (and a decisive one too) followed by snap kick and maybe other stuff. Am i right?
I was following your logic until here: How do you supposedly move, finish your full round action with a standart action and still punches him in da face?

[Karl Aegis]

Got it, i was seatching in the full round, but is in the standard, now i got it.

IT, the spelling of the rule clearly ban the full attack action to be completed (or started) but the decisive strike is a full round action but not a full attack action, so you can use it easily, right? Like i start the full round action and move. Next round i move near you and complete the full round action, punch in your face (and a decisive one too) followed by snap kick and maybe other stuff. Am i right?

That is, indeed, how it works. However, be careful stacking to-hit penalties. Snap Kick and Decisive Strike both give a -2 to-hit penalty, making the total -4 to-hit. Combined with BAB loss from taking Monk levels, you might have problems hitting anything.

[Flickerdart]

Thirdly, even if you have a negative CHA, you can still deal up to +2d6 extra damage for free simply because your opponent is flat footed and you've just drawn your weapon. I mean it +2d6 for free, no investment at all, only one extra dice roll.
It's not free.

You have to have a secondary weapon - which in 3.5 means a magic weapon after the very low levels, or else you're losing to-hit and damage.

You have to take Quick Draw so you can draw it and Decisive Strike in the same round.

You lose out on the bonus damage from Unarmed Strike - and if you're not pumping skill rants into Iaijutsu, the damage you're getting back definitely doesn't outdo your fists. And it still takes away at least 2 skill points from somewhere because IF can't be used untrained.

The amount of extra investment just so you can break even is not worth it for a Monk, especially one focusing on effective Decisive Strike.

[bootzin]

It's not free.

You have to have a secondary weapon - which in 3.5 means a magic weapon after the very low levels, or else you're losing to-hit and damage.

You have to take Quick Draw so you can draw it and Decisive Strike in the same round.

You lose out on the bonus damage from Unarmed Strike - and if you're not pumping skill rants into Iaijutsu, the damage you're getting back definitely doesn't outdo your fists. And it still takes away at least 2 skill points from somewhere because IF can't be used untrained.

The amount of extra investment just so you can break even is not worth it for a Monk, especially one focusing on effective Decisive Strike.

IIRC, there is a weapon on 3.0 that allows you to consider it as an unarmed attack, regarding hit bonus, damage and all, with the benefit that you are still able to enhance it normally

And it is exactly because Decisive Strike don't suck that you are able to do it without quick draw..

And most importantly, as I've stated above in my first post, Iaijutsu Focus is not trained only, you may use it untrained

So, basically, it may require a little bit of optimization, but he may opt for Iaijutsu Focus as a small oomph to his damage. Of course it may not be the best option, but I guess it is quite viable

[emeraldstreak]

Or power attack two-handed with a quarterstaff, or throw a (maximized, empowered, fire) shuriken.

My point is that Decisive Strike works with all monk weapons, not just unarmed strikes.


Also, grab the Scorpion property of the Scorpion Kama and apply it to your weapon. Then unleash as many as of the size-boosting shenanigans as you can, starting with Greater Mighty Wallop.

[Flickerdart]

IIRC, there is a weapon on 3.0 that allows you to consider it as an unarmed attack, regarding hit bonus, damage and all, with the benefit that you are still able to enhance it normally
[citation needed]


And it is exactly because Decisive Strike don't suck that you are able to do it without quick draw..

What does that even mean?

[bootzin]

[citation needed]
I believe it was from Sword and Fist, but I really don't recall the name of it right now


What does that even mean?
I'm sorry, I really wasn't very clear on that. I mean, on the post we were saying that you could split up full round actions, so you could manage to use Decisive Strike and draw a weapon in the same round, without using Quick Draw

[Darrin]

I believe it was from Sword and Fist, but I really don't recall the name of it right now


Ward Cestus, which is just a variation on the gauntlet/spiked gauntlet: "A strike with a ward cestus is considered an unarmed attack." It's not clear from the text what they mean by this, or which parts of the rules this applies to. Do they mean it's treated as an unarmed attack for provoking AoOs, for calculating the attack bonus, for determining lethal/nonlethal damage, or for interacting with other feats that involve unarmed attacks?

Assuming you know how all that makes sense in a 3.0 game, to bring it into a 3.5 game you'll have to address the "minor adjustment" clause from the 3.5 DMG page 4. Many DMs might just shrug and say, "It's treated as a gauntlet", which means you can attack with it as a manufactured weapon, but it provokes and does damage as an unarmed strike.

[emeraldstreak]

Instead, bring in the Item Compendium for 3.5 and get Scorpion quality, now your weapon does your unarmed damage.

[Karl Aegis]

Instead, bring in the Item Compendium for 3.5 and get Scorpion quality, now your weapon does your unarmed damage.

At the cost of manliness.

[Flickerdart]

I'm sorry, I really wasn't very clear on that. I mean, on the post we were saying that you could split up full round actions, so you could manage to use Decisive Strike and draw a weapon in the same round, without using Quick Draw
Yeah, but that takes two rounds. So you're sacrificing two rounds of Decisive Strike.

[Anlashok]

No mention of Robilar's? It's a lot of fun with Decisive Strike.