Advantage and Flanking for the 5e Beginner

[wayfare]

Hey All:

I've recently started playing a 5th edition game as the only melee player. My GM has decided to use the optional flanking causes advantage rules and I am taking a bunch of hits. He also has seemed to rule that when I am engaged in melee, any opponent attacking me pretty much gets advantage, even if it is a ranged attacker (though there may be some instances where this is justified -- maybe height grants advantage).

What are folks experiences with this? Is advantage overly punitive for melee? Any tips on how to avoid flanking?

Also, can folks give me some ideas as to how I can set up advantage my myself? A few ideas i came up with, but I'm not sure will fly:

Using a melee weapon against a ranged character (except those using a hand crossbow of thrown weapon)
Logic: No way to parry, bow is cumbersome to use in close combat?

Attacking surprised/unaware opponents
Logic: They don't know what's coming

Getting some kind of summonable flanking buddy
Logic: Flanking is great! But I am a pally, what spell or item could set this up?

Attacking an intimidated opponent
Logic: They're too scared to fight back?

Using my move action to skirt the opponent's square, then attack from behind?
Logic: Really only works on larger opponents that have blindspots i can stand in.

Attacking a prone opponent
Logic: Harder to defend

Any other suggestions are welcome!

Thanks

Wayfare

[Madfellow]

I've recently started playing a 5th edition game as the only melee player. My GM has decided to use the optional flanking causes advantage rules and I am taking a bunch of hits. He also has seemed to rule that when I am engaged in melee, any opponent attacking me pretty much gets advantage, even if it is a ranged attacker (though there may be some instances where this is justified -- maybe height grants advantage).

What are folks experiences with this? Is advantage overly punitive for melee? Any tips on how to avoid flanking?

You should talk to your DM and tell him that you feel like you're being unduly hindered in your role as party tank. See if you can get him to let go of the flanking rule.

[wayfare]

You should talk to your DM and tell him that you feel like you're being unduly hindered in your role as party tank. See if you can get him to let go of the flanking rule.

I brought it up during play, but I don't think that's likely to change. Any coping strategies you can think of?

[Fyorl]

I brought it up during play, but I don't think that's likely to change. Any coping strategies you can think of?
Maybe just die a lot so your DM realises how unreasonable giving advantage on every attack against you is.

Also, ranged attackers shouldn't have advantage unless they are attacking from unseen.

[Galen]

Using a melee weapon against a ranged character (except those using a hand crossbow of thrown weapon)
Logic: No way to parry, bow is cumbersome to use in close combat?
While you may be able to convince your DM, this is not according to rules. The reverse is true (the ranged character has disadvantage to his attack if there's an enemy in melee range), but there's nothing saying attacks against the ranged character have advantage.


Attacking surprised/unaware opponents
Logic: They don't know what's coming
Re: surprised, the rules are not on your side here. Surprised means they can't take actions until the surprise round ends, but attacks against them have no special advantage.
As for unaware opponents - if they can't see you, you have advantage, that's in the rules.


Attacking an intimidated opponent
Logic: They're too scared to fight back?
Frightened opponents have disadvantage on attacks. Alas, you don't get advantage against them.


Using my move action to skirt the opponent's square, then attack from behind?
Logic: Really only works on larger opponents that have blindspots i can stand in.
Front and back are an abstraction in D&D. There's no "behind" unless some kind of optional facing rules are used. Talk to your DM.


Attacking a prone opponent
Logic: Harder to defendThat's actually 100% in accordance with rules. Being prone grants advantage to enemies within 5'.

[wayfare]

While you may be able to convince your DM, this is not according to rules. The reverse is true (the ranged character has disadvantage to his attack if there's an enemy in melee range), but there's nothing saying attacks against the ranged character have advantage.


Re: surprised, the rules are not on your side here. Surprised means they can't take actions until the surprise round ends, but attacks against them have no special advantage.
As for unaware opponents - if they can't see you, you have advantage, that's in the rules.


Frightened opponents have disadvantage on attacks. Alas, you don't get advantage against them.


Front and back are an abstraction in D&D. There's no "behind" unless some kind of optional facing rules are used. Talk to your DM.

That's actually 100% in accordance with rules. Being prone grants advantage to enemies within 5'.

Thanks!

Any suggestions on how I can acquire advantage? Or avoid getting flanked?

Also, like the username!

[Thrudd]

Get some allies to cover your flanks (can you hire some help or get henchmen?) or position yourself so only one enemy can reach you at a time. Don't stand where ranged attacks can reach you. Retreat from fights where you are outnumbered and can't avoid getting flanked or peppered with arrows, until you can find a better position to fight from. That's what a warrior would do in real life, isn't it?

In other words, think tactically and immerse yourself in the game world, instead of asking for the game world to be nicer to you or looking for rules to exploit.
Now, whether your DM is appropriately using flanking rules and advantage against you, I don't know. But the idea of using flanking rules shouldn't be ruled out just because you are the only melee character and you don't know how to deal with it.

Shooting missiles into a melee should not be advantageous for the shooter. They should have an equal chance to hit their ally instead of the intended target, since they are in close proximity and violently moving around. If 5e gives advantage to such a ranged attack, that is something I think you would be justified in arguing against including. But otherwise, it makes sense for someone to get advantage on an attack if they are attacking your back (assuming facing us being used). Multiple attackers against one defender, sure.

[Galen]

Most common ways to get advantage:
- knock the enemy prone
- be invisible (or blind the enemy, which amounts to same)
- get the enemy restrained

(I'm away from books now, and don't know how the optional flanking rules work)

Basically, look into everything that grants for enforces the Prone, Invisible, Blinded, or Restrained conditions. Ask teammates for help if they have spells/abilities that can help in that regard.

[wayfare]

Get some allies to cover your flanks (can you hire some help or get henchmen?) or position yourself so only one enemy can reach you at a time. Don't stand where ranged attacks can reach you. Retreat from fights where you are outnumbered and can't avoid getting flanked or peppered with arrows, until you can find a better position to fight from. That's what a warrior would do in real life, isn't it?

In other words, think tactically and immerse yourself in the game world, instead of asking for the game world to be nicer to you or looking for rules to exploit.
Now, whether your DM is appropriately using flanking rules and advantage against you, I don't know. But the idea of using flanking rules shouldn't be ruled out just because you are the only melee character and you don't know how to deal with it.

Shooting missiles into a melee should not be advantageous for the shooter. They should have an equal chance to hit their ally instead of the intended target, since they are in close proximity and violently moving around. If 5e gives advantage to such a ranged attack, that is something I think you would be justified in arguing against including. But otherwise, it makes sense for someone to get advantage on an attack if they are attacking your back (assuming facing us being used). Multiple attackers against one defender, sure.

Point in fact, that's what I'm trying to do.

But, at the same time, advantage is a huge well, advantage compared to flanking in 3.5 and such. A +2 modifier does not compare to a re-roll, so it is taking some time to adjust my heroic fantasy mindset to something more like a wargame.

Also, keep in mind, that options like "gather an army of guys to help you" are not really an option for me. I don't have the luxury of outnumbering the enemy unless its a BBEG, and even then some may have minions. So, tactical maneuvers are really the only option I have. Stand in the narrow hallway, get height, lay obstacles are what I have to work with.

[Thrudd]

Point in fact, that's what I'm trying to do.

But, at the same time, advantage is a huge well, advantage compared to flanking in 3.5 and such. A +2 modifier does not compare to a re-roll, so it is taking some time to adjust my heroic fantasy mindset to something more like a wargame.

Also, keep in mind, that options like "gather an army of guys to help you" are not really an option for me. I don't have the luxury of outnumbering the enemy unless its a BBEG, and even then some may have minions. So, tactical maneuvers are really the only option I have. Stand in the narrow hallway, get height, lay obstacles are what I have to work with.

Where the heck is the rest of your party? None of them will help you in melee? You're supposed to be working as a team. It is not usually a good tactic to send one guy out alone to face the brunt of an enemy force, while the rest keep a safe distance and shoot spells and arrows. Unless that one guy is completely disposable and is meant as a distraction/lure to get enemies to reveal themselves. Maybe you should talk to your so-called allies, too, about changing up party tactics a bit ;).

Unless you're like the Tick or something: " send in the invulnerable guy!" and you just charge ahead while they wait to see how many guys you can take out by yourself. "Spoon!"

[Giant2005]

The best way to counter your DM's harshness is to find a way of imposing disadvantage to your enemy's attacks which would cancel out the advantage he is essentially handing out for free. Three levels of Warlock for Devil's Sight and Darkness would do the trick or you could use Blur or any number of other spells to do the trick. You could also take some Monk levels to be able to use the Dodge action as a bonus action but you would need to commit quite a lot to that class to have enough Ki points to do it regularly.

[wayfare]

Where the heck is the rest of your party? None of them will help you in melee? You're supposed to be working as a team. It is not usually a good tactic to send one guy out alone to face the brunt of an enemy force, while the rest keep a safe distance and shoot spells and arrows. Unless that one guy is completely disposable and is meant as a distraction/lure to get enemies to reveal themselves. Maybe you should talk to your so-called allies, too, about changing up party tactics a bit ;).

Unless you're like the Tick or something: " send in the invulnerable guy!" and you just charge ahead while they wait to see how many guys you can take out by yourself. "Spoon!"

Only melee in a party with a squishy ranged rogue and ranged warlock. It isnt feeling great so far.

Again, thats not necessarily a flaw in the game. I'm trying to work with it, but it feels much more lethal than low level 3.5. Which is why i am comparing it to wargaming - the rules make perfect sense as a sim where youre not supposed to get attached to units and have to deploy them strategically, make sacrifices, etc. But right now, without taking advantage of terrain features, i feel like i am sort of screwed, hence the cry for help, lol

[Galen]

Upon further reflection, I think the best thing is to talk to your DM how the optional flanking rules - when the party only has one melee combatant- grossly favor the monsters, and convince him to abandon them.

It could work if the party was, for example, Fighter, Paladin, War Cleric, Wizard, but if, in another example, the party is Paladin, ranged Rogue, Wizard, non-melee Cleric, things kind of break down.

[Thrudd]

Only melee in a party with a squishy ranged rogue and ranged warlock. It isnt feeling great so far.

Again, thats not necessarily a flaw in the game. I'm trying to work with it, but it feels much more lethal than low level 3.5. Which is why i am comparing it to wargaming - the rules make perfect sense as a sim where youre not supposed to get attached to units and have to deploy them strategically, make sacrifices, etc. But right now, without taking advantage of terrain features, i feel like i am sort of screwed, hence the cry for help, lol

Yeah. With only three characters, you guys should be running away a lot, choosing your battles very wisely based on manageable numbers and positions, and using creative ambushes and other such tactics to keep from being exposed to too much up-front slog fest fights. If the DM is running the game like it is 3e or 4e, expecting you to jump head first into every fight like super heroes because it is supposedly "balanced" with appropriate CR, then applying sim-like flanking rulings is probably not appropriate.

However, as the players you guys should always have complete freedom to choose your actions and you tactics. If the DM presents you with situations that are clearly disadvantageous to you, run away. That might not be super fun, but if you are often running away from his planned fights, maybe the DM will notice and realize he isn't providing you with enough options.
This is the DM's error/problem if he is throwing you into fights that you have no choice but to participate in (which is wrong in of itself) in which the party is always clearly disadvantaged.

[Knaight]

Using choke points whenever possible will help, but the rules being applied are pretty strongly detrimental. Advantage for melee opponents I can understand from a simulation perspective (though it's kind of broken mechanically), that ranged attackers apparently find it easier to shoot at you while you're in melee with their buddies stretches my credulity - it's one thing if they're shooting you in the back while you have your shield pointed at their friend, but generally that sort of situation makes life harder, not easier.

[obryn]

Flanking is a broken rules option under 5e, with how weak opportunity attacks are and how strong advantage is.

It's trivial to get into flanking, since you can just run up next to and then completely around an enemy.

I'd probably talk with your DM about removing flanking altogether. And if that's not cool, strengthening opportunity attacks to make it more challenging to obtain. Weakening it to a flat +2 would be another possible 'fix.'

[Demonic Spoon]

1 Using a melee weapon against a ranged character (except those using a hand crossbow of thrown weapon)
Logic: No way to parry, bow is cumbersome to use in close combat?

2 Attacking surprised/unaware opponents
Logic: They don't know what's coming

3 Getting some kind of summonable flanking buddy
Logic: Flanking is great! But I am a pally, what spell or item could set this up?

4 Attacking an intimidated opponent
Logic: They're too scared to fight back?

5 Using my move action to skirt the opponent's square, then attack from behind?
Logic: Really only works on larger opponents that have blindspots i can stand in.

6 Attacking a prone opponent
Logic: Harder to defend

Numbered for easy reference.

1. You do not get advantage. The cumbersome nature of bows is represented by the fact that the ranged character gets disadvantage to attack rolls when you are close to him. AC comes from your ability to dodge and your armor; being able to parry is not a requirement (otherwise, unarmed monks would take an AC penalty).

2. Needs clarification. Surprise lets you act a full turn before everyone else. You do not get advantage on top of that. You only get advantage if your opponent cannot see you when you attack - an example would be shooting a bow at the target from some bushes, where he could not see you when you fired the arrow.

3. Not by default. Flanking is an optional variant rule that I personally do not recommend because 5e movement rules make it way too easy to get.

4. Being too scared to fight back does not help you, it only hurts them. This is covered by the frightened condition, which gives the target disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.

5. Not RAW. This kind of thing is exactly why I don't like the optional flanking/facing rules. The turn-based nature of combat, combined with the ease of movement, make it silly.

6. Yes. This is covered by the prone condition.

[wayfare]

Thanks, folks. I think I am going to see if I can get a pet or a hireling to help out. Either that, or i am going to tie the caster and the rogue to each side and become a mobile weapons platform :smallbiggrin:

Question: does the penalty to ranged attacks in melee also apply to cantrips like firebolt?

Re: Talking to GM -- His philosophy is that flankings is being applied to both sides, so he's not going to change his ruling. I think my only hope is to get a buddy to set up flanks with me.

[Demonic Spoon]

Question: does the penalty to ranged attacks in melee also apply to cantrips like firebolt?


Yes. Any ranged attack suffers the penalty. Note that spells that are not ranged attack rolls (acid splash, for example) are not penalized.

[Mellack]

Thanks, folks. I think I am going to see if I can get a pet or a hireling to help out. Either that, or i am going to tie the caster and the rogue to each side and become a mobile weapons platform :smallbiggrin:

Question: does the penalty to ranged attacks in melee also apply to cantrips like firebolt?

Re: Talking to GM -- His philosophy is that flankings is being applied to both sides, so he's not going to change his ruling. I think my only hope is to get a buddy to set up flanks with me.

Re: Talking to GM -- Since you are a party of only 3 and you are much more likely to be facing groups larger than that, it is not truly being applied equally to both sides. If that is what he is claiming, then suggest he must have smaller groups (1 or 2) just as often as he has groups of 4+ to keep it fair.

Your idea of hirelings is really trying to fix the problem above. Get your group bigger. Hire lots of help. Come in with groups of 10-20 to a fight. Even if they are weak, they will still be able to hit because they will all be attacking with advantage. Even if you give some bows, as your GM seems to think that has advantage too.

[Occasional Sage]

At what level are you playing? Your options will change dramatically as more spells come online.

Without knowing that, some general suggestions would be:

Control the terrain. If you cannot make a tactical retreat to more favorable ground, create it with patches of flaming oil and caltrops.
Apply Disadvantage to your enemies. Any one occurance of Disadvantage will, by RAW and RAI, negate all 93orwhatever sources of Advantage they have (Galen has a good list upthread of Disadvantage sources).
Use actions like Shove to get enemies out of melee, removing them from the "Am I flanked" equation.

[themaque]

I briefly had this problem as well. With a small group (such as yours and ours at the time) flanking favors mobs and the GM so much it's not even funny. Your best bet is to do your best to Kite the enemy or try and position yourself to the best advantage. Can the Warlock give you any battlefield control to help you out? a single fighter can't control the field of battle on his own.

If you can't, you may just have to re-tool your character.

[Gritmonger]

Have your caltrops blessed. Oh, and throw them about liberally, and often. They are relatively cheap, but can make trying to flank you and then chase you a little more of a headache. Seriously, if you don't have an advantage in terrain, make your own. Regular oil, oil of slipperiness, anything to make standing there hitting you cost more than just standing there and hitting you.

[danielcpryor]

Hey All:

I've recently started playing a 5th edition game as the only melee player. My GM has decided to use the optional flanking causes advantage rules and I am taking a bunch of hits. He also has seemed to rule that when I am engaged in melee, any opponent attacking me pretty much gets advantage, even if it is a ranged attacker (though there may be some instances where this is justified -- maybe height grants advantage).
Thanks

Wayfare

Here's how I run flanking in my game:

There is no "advantage" to flanking, BUT I give creatures/players a +1 to hit bonus if they flank so it's enough to help but not unbalancing. Also, i have relaxed the definition of flank so that it's literally any "side" of the target, BUT not adjacent to the other player/creature that is "assisting". And, for each player that gives up an action (even a free one) I give +1 to ALL players/creatures assisting. So this means that if a target is flanked by all four sides and everyone is assisting/cooperating, they can all get a +4 to hit. This gives an awesome bonus without being unbalancing and gives players/creatures a nice bonus for ACs that are next to impossible to hit. Also remember that a target has essentially four sides and that the attackers need to be on a different "side" no matter how big the target is and the attackers are limited to a max bonus of +4 to hit.

This balance allows for improved hitting, NORMAL damage you would expect, and doesn't give an unnecessary "advantage".

Don't forget with my method (although the images shows them lined up), a player doesn't have to be directly across from another to get a flank status, just some where along one of the four "sides" but not standing next to the other PC.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=67355&d=1426144067

[Psikerlord]

Hey All:

I've recently started playing a 5th edition game as the only melee player. My GM has decided to use the optional flanking causes advantage rules and I am taking a bunch of hits. He also has seemed to rule that when I am engaged in melee, any opponent attacking me pretty much gets advantage, even if it is a ranged attacker (though there may be some instances where this is justified -- maybe height grants advantage).

What are folks experiences with this? Is advantage overly punitive for melee? Any tips on how to avoid flanking?

Also, can folks give me some ideas as to how I can set up advantage my myself? A few ideas i came up with, but I'm not sure will fly:

Using a melee weapon against a ranged character (except those using a hand crossbow of thrown weapon)
Logic: No way to parry, bow is cumbersome to use in close combat?

Attacking surprised/unaware opponents
Logic: They don't know what's coming

Getting some kind of summonable flanking buddy
Logic: Flanking is great! But I am a pally, what spell or item could set this up?

Attacking an intimidated opponent
Logic: They're too scared to fight back?

Using my move action to skirt the opponent's square, then attack from behind?
Logic: Really only works on larger opponents that have blindspots i can stand in.

Attacking a prone opponent
Logic: Harder to defend

Any other suggestions are welcome!

Thanks

WayfareThe game plays better without the flanking rule. We played without it, then used it when DMG came out, then ditched it.

Easy adv via flanking devalues other adv abilities, devalues AC, and make HP and damage even more important than they already are. In my experience, you are better off not using the flanking rule, or reducing it to a +1 token bonus.

I would suggest asking the DM to play without it, see what he thinks. If he wont change it, I recommend killing your PC off and making up a high damage PC, which will be much more fun in a flanking game.

[Solusek]

In my experience, you are better off not using the flanking rule, or reducing it to a +1 token bonus.
This ^
A +1 bonus is the most that flanking should give in this edition. It is way too easy to set up with the new AOO rules.

No it isn't fair that both the players and monsters get to use it. Especially in a group with only 3 PCs. That heavily favors the monsters, as you have found out. In a large group with 7 PC's (like my home game is) and multiple melee characters it could then start to favor the party more than the monsters and be unfair the other way.

Beyond that, it invalidates many class abilities whose main benefit is granting advantage in certain situations. If you already have advantage from flanking those class abilities/spells are useless. It just turns flanking into the ultimate solution for everything, because it is so easy to get.

In addition, because ranged attacks don't flank, it will start to skew class balanced into favoring lots of melee characters who are all setting up flanks. The poor Warlock who is Eldritch Blasting or the Wizard who is throwing out Scorching Rays will be left in the dust due to their much lower hit rates compared to the flankers.

[wayfare]

This ^
A +1 bonus is the most that flanking should give in this edition. It is way too easy to set up with the new AOO rules.

No it isn't fair that both the players and monsters get to use it. Especially in a group with only 3 PCs. That heavily favors the monsters, as you have found out. In a large group with 7 PC's (like my home game is) and multiple melee characters it could then start to favor the party more than the monsters and be unfair the other way.

Beyond that, it invalidates many class abilities whose main benefit is granting advantage in certain situations. If you already have advantage from flanking those class abilities/spells are useless. It just turns flanking into the ultimate solution for everything, because it is so easy to get.

In addition, because ranged attacks don't flank, it will start to skew class balanced into favoring lots of melee characters who are all setting up flanks. The poor Warlock who is Eldritch Blasting or the Wizard who is throwing out Scorching Rays will be left in the dust due to their much lower hit rates compared to the flankers.

It seems like ranged attacks are getting the benefits of flanking. Essentially, if I am engaged, any attackers against me get flanking.

Similarly, if i am engaging anyone, my party gets flanking.

[ZeltArruin]

Don't forget that there are some enemies that gain advantage any time they attack a target that has a friendly in melee with it. Kobolds come to mind as ridiculously deadly against low level parties, as they tend to ALWAYS have advantage. That could be what's going on with your game.

[Laurefindel]

Hey All:

I've recently started playing a 5th edition game as the only melee player. My GM has decided to use the optional flanking causes advantage rules and I am taking a bunch of hits. He also has seemed to rule that when I am engaged in melee, any opponent attacking me pretty much gets advantage, even if it is a ranged attacker (though there may be some instances where this is justified -- maybe height grants advantage).

What are folks experiences with this? Is advantage overly punitive for melee? Any tips on how to avoid flanking

Wayfare

If your group is using feats, you could look at polearm master and sentinel, which may grant you enough battlefield control to avoid being flanked systematically. A shield grog hireling / trained animal who's job is mainly to cover your back may also help in that regard.

With a small party mainly composed of ranged combatants, your options for gaining advantage are pretty much reduced to stealth and invisibility, but there should be ways for you to prevent your enemies from having advantage against you all the time.