Keeping Your Crappy Players Alive: Hirelings? Companions? HOW I DO?!

[RavynsLand]

So, after a long hiatus from D&D I got talked into running a game. Excited to run a very challenging campaign, I started drafting up challenging villains and home-made monsters. I started things off and let my players (of which there are two) start off at ECL5.

What I got:

- unoptimized Drow Rogue1/Swashbuckler2
- unoptimized Half-Drow Monk5

In other words, my players are going to f***ing die. Their first encounter is against a single otyugh and I'm not certain they'll live.

I'm going for a dark world, so I don't want it to be sunshine and daisies with easy monsters that don't do anything scary. I want vicious NPC villains, horrific traps, etc. But not only are both of these characters extremely poorly-made, neither of them really serve a role.

My thought was to create a few companions -- some for hire, some that could be picked up by quests, that would interact with the characters and aid them without (hopefully) overshadowing them. The issue is, how do I create characters that can be of assistance without making the actual characters look like idiots? Would I be better off just slaughtering them and having them re-roll? How can I run a high-challenge campaign when the characters I'm running will be killed by a stiff breeze?

[Ser Charles]

Are your players new to the game?

Perhaps they don't know how to build more optimised characters, or maybe they enjoy a lower Optimisation level than you prefer.

Either way, as a DM you're probably going to need to create encounters that challenge your players PCs rather than imaginary PCs which you might create yourself!

Hopefully, once you get into the campaign you'll find a middle ground where all parties have fun. Good luck!

[Hamste]

To be fair an otyugh is above their ecl. That being said if you feel it will be too tough for them you can always scale the difficulty down a bit. If you absolutely feel they need help you can go with a buffer, a debuffer or a combat maneuver user (say trip or bull rush). The first two make the enemies easier to kill for the players so they can have more fun the last one manipulates the battle field to give the team the advantage with out actually killing the enemy. A focused healer could be nice as well.

[weckar]

If you want a lethal-like campaign with only two players to fill the roles the usual choice is - gestalt.

[RavynsLand]

As a DM you're probably going to need to create encounters that challenge your players PCs

But that's everything. They have no specific strengths or weaknesses besides "being made dead."

Surprisingly neither are new to the game, which makes me somewhat baffled as to how they made the characters they made. I wasn't expecting a pair of mega-druids or anything, but everyone knows not to make monks. O_o

[Troacctid]

See, this is exactly why I ban Monks and Swashbucklers and level adjustments higher than +1. Because otherwise, you get this sort of thing. Ugh.

You're going to have to decide how to handle it based on your best evaluation of the players' personalities. You may just need to talk to them and say, "Well, both of your characters appear to be horribly underpowered, and the monsters won't be pulling any punches, so... you will probably die." And see how they react.

A possible solution that could allow them to keep their builds and still stand a chance is to give them max hit points per level and an abnormally high ability score array. Or, give them both some free templates, maybe.

[Necroticplague]

Kill 'em. Once that happens, point out why their builds were horrible. Have them make something new. Repeat until they build characters who are actually somewhat competent.

[RavynsLand]

See, this is exactly why I ban Monks and Swashbucklers and level adjustments higher than +1. Because otherwise, you get this sort of thing. Ugh.

You're going to have to decide how to handle it based on your best evaluation of the players' personalities. You may just need to talk to them and say, "Well, both of your characters appear to be horribly underpowered, and the monsters won't be pulling any punches, so... you will probably die." And see how they react.

A possible solution that could allow them to keep their builds and still stand a chance is to give them max hit points per level and an abnormally high ability score array. Or, give them both some free templates, maybe.

Sadly play has already started and their character sheets are finished. But I may do the first bit and just let them know about their impending doom. I just don't wanna be that DM that literally kills you in the first encounter. I even did give them solid stat arrays (34 point buy) but still, I'm looking ahead at some +1d6 sneak attacks and failed stunning fists and just... urgh.

[RavynsLand]

Kill 'em. Once that happens, point out why their builds were horrible. Have them make something new. Repeat until they build characters who are actually somewhat competent.

It's starting to look like that may need to be what happens.

[Troacctid]

Yeah... ugh.

On the upside, if you do tell them frankly that you expect them to die and they manage to survive anyhow, they will feel like total badasses and probably have a lot of fun.

[Ephemeral_Being]

You do realize with two people their ECL is not equivalent to their party level, right? If you want their party level to be 5, you'll need to have them start at level 7.

My recommendation is to get more party members. Two more would be good. If that's not an option, give them slaves. Drow keep slaves. Mostly creatures that live in the Underdark, like Kobolds, the Githyanki, or Svirfneblin. There's a way to make it work in the campaign. And they could always buy new slaves, if they want something different.

[RavynsLand]

Yeah... ugh.

On the upside, if you do tell them frankly that you expect them to die and they manage to survive anyhow, they will feel like total badasses and probably have a lot of fun.

I don't see that happening. :(

Like I said, I have one standard otyugh lined up for their first encounter and I envision at least one of them dying.

[RavynsLand]

You do realize with two people their ECL is not equivalent to their party level, right? If you want their party level to be 5, you'll need to have them start at level 7.

My recommendation is to get more party members. Two more would be good. If that's not an option, give them slaves. Drow keep slaves. Mostly creatures that live in the Underdark, like Kobolds, the Githyanki, or Svirfneblin. There's a way to make it work in the campaign. And they could always buy new slaves, if they want something different.

I am aware of that, which is why I'm starting them against a CR4 creature.

Slaves might work. But that goes back to the companion/hireling idea of having other characters pick up the slack -- even if they're lower-level they may still steal the show.

[jaydubs]

I understand the desire not to softball your players. But is it really taking it easy on them to tone down the difficulty, if they have very unoptimized characters?

To put it another way. If the campaign is for level 5 commoners, you'd probably set up different encounters than for level 5 gestalts. So instead of building a campaign that's challenging for 2 optimized characters, and ending up with a TPK factory for unoptimized characters. Why not build a campaign that's challenging for 2 unoptimized characters?

[Kesnit]

My thought was to create a few companions -- some for hire, some that could be picked up by quests, that would interact with the characters and aid them without (hopefully) overshadowing them.

DMPC's - especially those who are built to be better than the PCs - are really, really bad.


The issue is, how do I create characters that can be of assistance without making the actual characters look like idiots? Would I be better off just slaughtering them and having them re-roll?

Your players have told you what they want to play. They obviously aren't looking for an optimized game, so don't give them that.

Or you could force them to play at a higher optimization level than they clearly want to. At which point, they will likely start to resent you.


How can I run a high-challenge campaign when the characters I'm running will be killed by a stiff breeze?

Easy. Don't.



Surprisingly neither are new to the game, which makes me somewhat baffled as to how they made the characters they made. I wasn't expecting a pair of mega-druids or anything, but everyone knows not to make monks. O_o

Huh... I'll tell that to one of my best friends, who loves playing VoP Monks. Since the rest of the party are low op, it works out well.

[RavynsLand]

I understand the desire not to softball your players. But is it really taking it easy on them to tone down the difficulty, if they have very unoptimized characters?

To put it another way. If the campaign is for level 5 commoners, you'd probably set up different encounters than for level 5 gestalts. So instead of building a campaign that's challenging for 2 optimized characters, and ending up with a TPK factory for unoptimized characters. Why not build a campaign that's challenging for 2 unoptimized characters?

I suppose that's possible. It's not what I wanted to do in the first place, but I guess. There is the issue that they'll never gain experience if I throw orcs at them.

Maybe I could fudge the experience gain....


DMPC's - especially those who are built to be better than the PCs - are really, really bad.

That was never my intention. I don't use DMPC's. I was considering making non-glamorous, lower-level NPC grunts (maybe Healers) that might be able to keep the team alive and twitching.


Your players have told you what they want to play. They obviously aren't looking for an optimized game, so don't give them that.

Or you could force them to play at a higher optimization level than they clearly want to. At which point, they will likely start to resent you.

Honestly it didn't seem like they considered the viability of their builds at all. Not like they went "I want to make a bad character in an easy campaign and that's that," but more went "I'm gonna make a defense-oriented monk and he is (somehow) going to live."

[Bucky]

I just don't wanna be that DM that literally kills you in the first encounter.

Easy enough to fix, just start them off with a CR3 warmer against a pair of T5 NPCs. Then kill them in the second encounter.

[Karl Aegis]

Orcs will murder them wholesale.

[illyahr]

Anyone with more than a year's experience should know not to play a Swashbuckler at all, and never play a monk with level adjustment without Tippy-level shenanigans in the works. :smalleek:

Are these guys planning on going Monty Python for this campaign?

[jaydubs]

Just a point - NPCs are much less likely to steal the spotlight if they're not, in fact, NPCs.

Let your players control more than one character. In a 2 player party, it's not unheard of.

[Seclora]

Easy enough to fix, just start them off with a CR3 warmer against a pair of T5 NPCs. Then kill them in the second encounter.

This is not a bad idea, the part with NPCs, not the part with them dying next time.
Do the players know you have an otyugh set up? Have they actually encountered said otyugh?

If either question can be answered no, then send a few 3rd level thieves/guards/kobolds or a 5th level ninja and scatter the area around the otyugh's corpse with a few bodies belonging to whatever they're fighting. They think they got to the party late, and have a fight more inline with their own abilities without feeling like they're any less powerful for it. After all, the otyugh killed only a third of the foes before dying, and the two of them killed twice as many, right?

Also consider giving the same wealth and XP you would give a 4-man party. Give them time to plan their fights, encourage them to gather intel. Have them find an elderly diviner who will offer them his services in exchange for not being thrown out a window. If he's part of an enclave that will also offer free healing and a convenient place to lie low and plan their next operation, all the better. Allies, yes; DMPCs, no. Always make it clear that they are the ones in control of the when and where. Heck, they're elves(or at least half-elf), let them play the long game. Twenty years of your life costs a human opponent his Str, Dex, and Con, while you have centuries left.
Leadership may also be a good idea, if they want it.

Edit: Suddenly occurs; are these Drow non-evil? Because caring about the fate of the 'innocent' lives would be the worst-possible-thing.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Just a point - NPCs are much less likely to steal the spotlight if they're not, in fact, NPCs.

Let your players control more than one character. In a 2 player party, it's not unheard of.

That's what I meant with the Slave thing. They would be subservient to the Drow. Listen to their orders. It provides them with control over the situation, not the DM.

Plus, lore-wise, it's better than hirelings IMO.

[RavynsLand]

This is not a bad idea, the part with NPCs, not the part with them dying next time.
Do the players know you have an otyugh set up? Have they actually encountered said otyugh?

If either question can be answered no, then send a few 3rd level thieves/guards/kobolds or a 5th level ninja and scatter the area around the otyugh's corpse with a few bodies belonging to whatever they're fighting. They think they got to the party late, and have a fight more inline with their own abilities without feeling like they're any less powerful for it. After all, the otyugh killed only a third of the foes before dying, and the two of them killed twice as many, right?

Also consider giving the same wealth and XP you would give a 4-man party. Give them time to plan their fights, encourage them to gather intel. Have them find an elderly diviner who will offer them his services in exchange for not being thrown out a window. If he's part of an enclave that will also offer free healing and a convenient place to lie low and plan their next operation, all the better. Allies, yes; DMPCs, no. Always make it clear that they are the ones in control of the when and where. Heck, they're elves(or at least half-elf), let them play the long game. Twenty years of your life costs a human opponent his Str, Dex, and Con, while you have centuries left.
Leadership may also be a good idea, if they want it.

Edit: Suddenly occurs; are these Drow non-evil? Because caring about the fate of the 'innocent' lives would be the worst-possible-thing.

This sounds really good, actually, and is probably what I'll go with. They don't know about the otyugh so I can warm them up.

And I know at least the monk is Lawful Neutral. The rogue, I'm not sure, probably Chaotic Evil.

[daremetoidareyo]

Option One: Just disobey the wealth by level guidelines. Grab some class features, put them in some weapons/armor/clothes and let them be.

When I look at those character choices, I'm seeing two people who want to be suave, just in different ways. That monk may lose an arm to that otyough, but maybe a bit further down the dungeon, there is a flux adept with maug grafts who has been pinned under something that he can't move, who would be more than thankful to be helped out. That swashbuckler wants a dancing rapier like no one's business. Make it an intelligent dancing sword, and make it really mean and sarcastic, or give it the spirit of a randy outsider who makes it their mission to get the character into and outof romance. The grimdark of your campaign may take a hit.

Option two: feats
Both of those character choices take a hit because the feat economy for noncasters is terrible, even for fighters: You can make those characters better by combining crappy feats together. Make stunning fist improve into improved stunning fist at 6th level, improving into rapid stunning at 12th. Point blank shot, far shot, and precise shot can all be a single feat. Alertness and improved initiative are combined. Dodge and combat expertise are a single feat, mobility and spring attack are a single feat. Run & endurance are a single feat. etc. Any feat with the ability to be improved improves after 5 levels. This will free the PCs from the feat taxes and make them better at lower levels while making entry into prestige classes easy.


If the PCs don't have the abilities by virtue of their class choice chassis they can earn the abilities through equipment/grafts/homebrew etc. The only problem with this solution is the amount of railroading that it implies. This can be ameliorated by asking the PCs what they like about these characters, the kind of adventures that they would like these characters to encounter, and to sketch out what they think of when they imagine a 15th level version of their character. Then, you can make these railroad-lite decisions about how to get their characters to be both their ideal selves as well as competent enough to survive in the campaign that you want to run. Players always ruin your campaign, whether or not they are good or bad: they are just too unpredictable. And when its not players, its the dice.

[Seclora]

This sounds really good, actually, and is probably what I'll go with. They don't know about the otyugh so I can warm them up.

And I know at least the monk is Lawful Neutral. The rogue, I'm not sure, probably Chaotic Evil.
Thank evil god. Good guys have the hardest time waiting in the face of other's suffering, and overcoming the disadvantages of being a non-optimized character requires patience in spades. Also money, so much money.
You may also want to consider giving them some way to have Use Magic Device as a class skill, and/or Gloves of the Magic Savant(let you take 10 on Use Magic Device Checks, +10 insight to Use Magic Device). Some way to remove the unreliable qualities of the skill and make wands a viable strategy for them.
Bonus points if they steal it.

[emeraldstreak]

But that's everything. They have no specific strengths or weaknesses besides "being made dead."

Surprisingly neither are new to the game, which makes me somewhat baffled as to how they made the characters they made. I wasn't expecting a pair of mega-druids or anything, but everyone knows not to make monks. O_o

I can make a lvl 5 commoner that'll solo all MM CR5s by PC WBL alone. Monks have nothing to do with your players being weak, poor optimization does.

You'll have to hand-hold them into becoming better optimizers by nudging them with the right encounters.

[Warrnan]

If the daring outlaw is married to the drow thing, please insist on lesser drow with the drow racial levels so he/she at least gets HP and skill with his drow racial adjustment. Beg him to keep use magic device maxed and wand chambers full of useful Swift action spells such as wraith strike and delay death and a pile of CLW wands.

The monk. See if you can get them to at least work towards enlightened fist or sacred fist for some casting.

A controversial idea would be: DMnpc but with one caveat. Make this person a buffer such as a cleric, bard or wizard. Spend all the dm npc's actions buffing your poor weak melee buddies. Give your "support character" vow of poverty so you don't eat any party wealth. Archivist seems the best bet so you can cherry pick the best spells from many lists. They get to kick butt and chew bubble gum. You get to keep your players alive and gently coach their future level ups and encourage a little optimized retraining.

If they still die, beg one to be a druid and the other to be a ordained champion cleric build. Delay death and summons/animal companion covers over a multitude of sins. Or gestalt + their existing character build and something powerful / hard to kill on the other side. Good luck and happy adventuring.

[Kazyan]

You can make it seem challenging by presenting monsters as scary, unknown threats even if they're technically way under CR. You don't need mechanical hand-holding--my best DM to date ignored CR and made things weaker, but it felt like the hardest game I've ever played because the dungeon's atmosphere was like something out of Diablo II. Acid damage melted off our hair, we found the hanging corpse that generated the allip, etc..

Go look at the Splinterwaif in MMIII; it's CR 2. If you can't figure out how to describe that to make it intimidating and a Big Deal, I can't help you.

[Spore]

I HEAVILY disagree with the general notion of the thread to bash and burn underoptimized builds. This is roleplaying after all, and not some kind of MMO raid avatar. Yet, I agree with some notions:

1) Drow are cool, but having ECL +2 result in 3 HD worth of MONK of all classes is ... well, suicidal. Lesser drow is where it's at. A Monk 5 Drow is more likely to survive and benefit the combat. Or give him the Drow levels for free and give his friend something in exchange. They're frickin' drow, their smugness and sense of superiority has to come from SOMEWHERE.

2) Elves are schemers and planners. They wouldn't risk their lives with poorly planned combat. Drow also keep slaves as "cannon fodder" so give them access to those. An monster already under attack is okay, but as drow would attack a sick or wounded creature, it doesn't feel nice for a player to kill someone already hanging in the ropes. Make it a point for them to always ALWAYS plan encounters ahead. Give them spies or information or upcoming encounters. Nothing drops the difficulty of an encounter like knowing about all enemies and their weaknesses, having a surprise round and the battlefield advantage. A work force with shovel is the rich, but magically untalented guy's form of terraforming the battlefield.

3) Insert "Get-out-of-jail-free" cards into the game. They should be earned and rare but very potent. Have the monk romance a demon that could pull themselves out of harm once. Give them a one-shot item that casts a very powerful spell, a potion normally not able to be brewed, a necklace that casts a potent "dismissal" spell on all outsiders.

4) Suggest gestalt and assist them in adding their second class sensibly.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Have you ever thought of sitting down and explaining how you yourself make characters so they can understand exactly how weak they are? I have 2 new players in my group atm and while tactics and such they are learning (one if not extremely slower than the other.. no you dont run into the archer field of fire and die.. no you dont melee mode with a bow only guy..)
How to make a character be optimized is something they both don't have the faintest clue how to do, so I've told them what I can and help them when they realized that the 2 more experienced players had monstrously strong characters and didnt want to become backround to them. Albeit we aren't playing in a tier 1 optimized or die kind of game ever, being able to do something past sit there then die in combat is highly preferable.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, the Swashbuckler is fixable, go Lesser Drow and be a Daring Outlaw. Not amazing but its functional, especially with Swift and Deadly, full BaB Sneak Attack can be nasty.

The Monk. I have no ideas here, One punch Monk? Kung Fu Genius? Honestly the only fun Monk build i ever saw was Fistbeard Beardfist, and you need to be a Dwarf for that.

Now with all that being said, if you havent changed the monsters stat block and play them to their Int and tendencies they should be ok. Remember that most of the creatures where built with fighting Weapon Spec Fighters in mind. Just stay away from the horribly CRed creatures and youll be ok. They may surprise you by being tactically smart but Optimization dumb.

[mabriss lethe]

Here's an approach I might use: I call it "the FF5 plan"

Go ahead and write up a few somewhat optimized character sheets of various classes. Hang on to them. Assign a random piece of treasure to each one and make sure to make the treasures (probably "The weapons of slain heroes who've died facing this monster") readily available during the fight. If a character picks up one of these treasures and picks up on the subtle hint/railroading that they might want to do so, the item magically instructs them that they can..say... as a swift action, activate the item.

You then hand them the appropriate character sheet for the item in question. for the sake of argument, a sword or axe, or whatever. "And you've managed to temporarily awaken the spirit of Grognar Brain-smasher from his centuries old slumber. You can feel his strength, his savagery, his rage, and his madness flowing through you. You hear a dusty whisper in the back of your mind 'I crave the blood of the beast that slayed me. Lend me your hands to do the deed, mortal, and all that I was belongs to you.'" At this point, when they activate the item, they swap character sheets and play as Grognar, a basic orc beatstick barbarian. Grognar will depart with a successful will save or whenever the encounter ends.

Pepper the area with a basic party's worth of Relics of Slain Heroes (TM) (I'd stick to the standard classes in the PHB for starters) and let them keep them when the battle is over. You could even specify what sort of conditions create slain heroes and scatter others throughout the game world as quest items. Maybe the ground at their feet is rich with deposits of something like Thinaun that keeps their souls trapped in this place.

You could also let them know that at any point they may surrender completely to the possessing spirit and be reborn permanently as that character.

The end result is that they get to keep their character and use it if they wish, but they also have better options at hand when the fight begins AND you get some nice, juicy plot hooks to use.

[Abithrios]

This seems like an opportunity for you. You said you wanted the campaign to have a dark tone and be difficult. As it stands, you don't have to worry about your players crushing every challenge you try to set before them.

If you had a large party of high op characters, I doubt you would think twice about stepping up the CR that they fight to compensate. It is really no different to adjust the difficulty in the other direction. You could even think of it as a test of your system mastery to adjust things just right.

A few simple house rules can cover the most obvious problems, and you may want to start with some behind the scenes fixes, like considering them a level lower for CR calculations.


Here's an approach I might use: I call it "the FF5 plan"

Go ahead and write up a few somewhat optimized character sheets of various classes. Hang on to them. Assign a random piece of treasure to each one and make sure to make the treasures (probably "The weapons of slain heroes who've died facing this monster") readily available during the fight. If a character picks up one of these treasures and picks up on the subtle hint/railroading that they might want to do so, the item magically instructs them that they can..say... as a swift action, activate the item.

You then hand them the appropriate character sheet for the item in question. for the sake of argument, a sword or axe, or whatever. "And you've managed to temporarily awaken the spirit of Grognar Brain-smasher from his centuries old slumber. You can feel his strength, his savagery, his rage, and his madness flowing through you. You hear a dusty whisper in the back of your mind 'I crave the blood of the beast that slayed me. Lend me your hands to do the deed, mortal, and all that I was belongs to you.'" At this point, when they activate the item, they swap character sheets and play as Grognar, a basic orc beatstick barbarian. Grognar will depart with a successful will save or whenever the encounter ends.

Pepper the area with a basic party's worth of Relics of Slain Heroes (TM) (I'd stick to the standard classes in the PHB for starters) and let them keep them when the battle is over. You could even specify what sort of conditions create slain heroes and scatter others throughout the game world as quest items. Maybe the ground at their feet is rich with deposits of something like Thinaun that keeps their souls trapped in this place.

You could also let them know that at any point they may surrender completely to the possessing spirit and be reborn permanently as that character.

The end result is that they get to keep their character and use it if they wish, but they also have better options at hand when the fight begins AND you get some nice, juicy plot hooks to use.

This could go very well or very poorly depending on how it is presented.

[Grek]

As for the Otyugh encounter: Have you considered not making it a straight combat encounter? They're intelligent and speak common, after all. Have it mug them, but leave them alive.

[goto124]

But the players might/will still attack...

[Knaight]

Just replace the Otyugh with something else, or knock off a few HD (like monster advancement, but in reverse). They aren't building the characters in an optimized fashion, so take that into account when handling the mechanics on your end. As for avoiding their enemies seeming like idiots, that's generally not a mechanical thing. The antagonists might tend to be low level, that doesn't mean they have to be stupid. Have them use organizations that make sense, delegate tasks to underlings in an efficient way, so on and so forth.

[Madhava]

You can explain to them, very simply: D&D is, at its fundamental core, a wargame; a combat sim. Call attention to Gygax's Chainmail game, if doing so helps drive the point home.

The player's job, very simply, is to build a killer. To not do this, is sort of like someone deciding they'll only move their queen like a pawn. There's no rule saying you can't do this. But if they play someone who plays their queen as normal, then they lose.

And since they don't have a full four-person group, they are each expected to be a doubly-efficient killer. Killing, in game terms, equates to either A. spells, or B. combat damage, plus some measure of survivability.

That said, there is nothing wrong with either player's core concept. As others mentioned prior, a daring outlaw build can be done well. Consider encouraging this player not to neglect the UMD skill. Maybe call attention to the penetrating strike ACF, also.

Would the Monk player be receptive to the suggestion of a Tashalatora build, ascetic mage, or Sacred Fist?

Would either of them be interested in the leadership feat?

What if they had in-game mentors who were training them?

[Darrin]

Two thoughts:

The otyugh is a non-violent grandmotherly sort who finds visitors just "So precious!" But oh dear, there are some nasty kobolds living next door who just pilfered some of her knick-knacks...

Give them a water orc barbarian (torchbearer) and a magic-blooded star elf BFC sorcerer (cartographer) as hirelings, perhaps paid for by a mysterious patron. Knock the PCs unconscious on the first round, and then proceed to have the hirelings wipe the walls with the otyugh. The hirelings then revive the PCs. Repeat this for a couple more encounters, maybe sprinkling in a few hireling comments like, "Urgh! Nasty blow there, but thank Grummsh I didn't take any level adjustment, and thus I have enough hit points to shrug that off!" or "You're welcome. Good thing I had enough caster levels to cast glitterdust."

(Ok, maybe that last one is rubbing their nose in it a little too hard.)

[atemu1234]

Feed them optimization tips. Let the monk rebuild his character. Moreover, convince them to do the above.

[weckar]

Two thoughts:

The otyugh is a non-violent grandmotherly sort who finds visitors just "So precious!" But oh dear, there are some nasty kobolds living next door who just pilfered some of her knick-knacks...

Give them a water orc barbarian (torchbearer) and a magic-blooded star elf BFC sorcerer (cartographer) as hirelings, perhaps paid for by a mysterious patron. Knock the PCs unconscious on the first round, and then proceed to have the hirelings wipe the walls with the otyugh. The hirelings then revive the PCs. Repeat this for a couple more encounters, maybe sprinkling in a few hireling comments like, "Urgh! Nasty blow there, but thank Grummsh I didn't take any level adjustment, and thus I have enough hit points to shrug that off!" or "You're welcome. Good thing I had enough caster levels to cast glitterdust."

(Ok, maybe that last one is rubbing their nose in it a little too hard.)PC be like: What's a level adjustment? I was born this way...

[Zirconia]

As several others have said, it seems that you have a good setup here for the "difficult" campaign you want to run. After adjusting CR for the party size, you may even be able to step it down a bit further and still make it "difficult", so you have a huge range to work with. For example, not all Otyugh's have to arise fully grown, perhaps this is a young one, so apply the monster advancement system in reverse. To give them a bit of extra padding in order to see how they do tactically, just give them max HPs, I've seen that done before in regular campaigns to allow for more interesting fights and a bit less rocket-tag. Other homebrews are easy if needed, let the Monk flurry on a standard action, for example.

People designing characters like this don't necessarily expect to advance blindingly fast, so don't worry too much about low XPs. That is easy enough to tweak, if they are fighting "challenging" foes for them, they frankly should learn more from each fight than optimized characters steamrolling stuff 3 CRs above them in 2 rounds.

[Curmudgeon]

Bring in a troop of Samurai, because that's the only hope of helping the PCs without showing them up.

[goto124]

May I sig the thread title please?

[Telonius]

This sounds like a (mainly) OOC problem. It should be dealt with (mainly) OOC. You and the players have a different idea of appropriate optimization, and that's going to affect the entire gaming experience unless you can get that sorted out. Either they need to step up their power, or you need to tone down the encounters, or both. Talk to them, see what their comfort level is, and let them know what your comfort level is. (You don't want to be stuck re-working your entire adventure plan because they picked things that would be vastly less powerful than you were expecting; the game is supposed to be fun for the DM, too). Be willing to compromise, and help them along. If necessary, you can throw them some custom items, or allow houserules or variants to improve them. (gestalt; use LA buyoff; flurry as a standard action and full BAB for the Monk; set up some easily-achieved affiliation benefits like in DMG2; and any other bones you want to throw them).

[illyahr]

Best I can come up with? Double everything on the WBL table. They are going to need those magic items.

[Karl Aegis]

I think it's rather impressive your players managed to derail the campaign so much you basically need a new campaign before the campaign even started.

[elvengunner69]

Seeing as they are Drow and ideally you don't want NPCs to show them up what if they had some magic animal totems they carried (handed down for generations) one of a Dire Wolf and one of a Dire something else? That way they get to roll for these extra's to the group and effectively make themselves more powerful as a result without stepping on their toes?

If Dire creatures don't work maybe they summon some other creature from the underdark to aid them 2/day or something? I'm guessing the one player chose Swashbuckler for some kind of flavor play or to maybe just do something different? Personally I like it when people play something different and aren't always trying to op-fu (or whatever its called) every character, every time.

[Kantolin]

If the Otyugh hits every time with a full attack, it will do about 8 or 9 damage between both tentacles and its bite. A level 5 monk has a base hit points of about 26, presuming a constitution modifier of 10, maxHP at level 1, and average for the other levels. That's three or four entire rounds of being full attacked, with all swings hitting, before the monk goes down - and presumes the monk has a constitution of 10 and no toughness or anything.

A level 5 monk does 1d8 damage with his unarmed strikes, which he can use even if the otyugh successfully grapples him. Assuming a strength of 12, he does about 5.5 damage per punch, which means he has to hit 7 times to drop the otyugh. If he gets the same 'full attack and attacks hit' as the otyugh, then he'll drop the otyugh in 4 rounds by himself.

If the otyugh grapples the monk, then the monk can continue to stab him while the rogue/swashbuckler can sneak attack him. He's in better shape grappling the rogue/swashbuckler, but then the rogue/swashbuckler is only taking tentacle damagex2 and can still use a light weapon to stab it (Or escape artist or something)

So... I dunno. How unoptimized is unoptimized? It looks like the two of them should be able to take an otyugh, even if the monk has a con of 10 and a strength of 12, which I'm presuming isn't the case. Even moreso if they shoot it from range first or catch it with a stunning fist or something.

If you're looking for some quickie improvements on their end, try giving them more stats to work with. A monk with several 18s will perform better than a monk with a con of 10 and a strength of 12, unsurprisingly.

Insofar as 'Thus I cannot run a world with dangerous opponents', remember that dangerous is 'compared to the people you have as higher ups in the setting'. Or basically, every DM draws a line on what 'most powerful' means for their setting.

Unless, I suppose, you don't - in which everyone in your setting of relevance should have infinite stats/abilities/feats/etc as anything else is less powerful.

Presuming that's not true, then perhaps you could move your lines. The leader of the mercenaries guild, instead of a high level Warblade 5 / Jade Phoenix Mage 10, could instead be a high level Fighter 8 / Sorceror 7. Retains the flavor, but reduces the power level significantly - but still is a currently-impossible threat for the level 5 crew that someday they may be able to overcome.

If anything, the PCs being low-powered helps the overall feel of the world being deadly and dangerous since it gives you a much larger amount of 'up' to scale to. A PC who is not being threatened certainly isn't feeling like the world is deadly and dangerous - if a given PC can kill seven (baseline) ogres without breaking a sweat, then you cannot use ogres as grunt troops - nor can you use (baseline) goblins or similar. But if an ogre can devastate a town by his lonesome, then you have far more options for being intimidating - while you still have goblins to use as more than grunt troops. You can put a single highly optimized cleric as the leader of one of the four divine districts and be quite secure that none of the adepts or healer-the-class characters around will be able to unseat her. You can have the regional leader be a warrior for the PCs to topple, have his boss be a fighter, have /his/ boss be a crusader, and the top be an optimized wizard gish - whereas with a higher power group they'd just skip half of those. Can have an optimized druid demand tribute, and the only counter he has is the wizard in his tower - but the wizard is pissed off at the current King and thus refuses to help. But maybe if the PCs can get him a helpful artifact that he's been too busy with his studies to retrieve, saving him some time...

Dark World, no sunshine, no daisies, and /especially/ because they are low powered.

In fact, most of these circumstances wouldn't feel as threatening if the PCs were strong enough to just deal with them. If the PCs have an optimized planar shepard, then a single enemy druid demanding tribute had better be /waaay waaay/ higher level than them for them to not respond, 'Okay, let's go take him out then'. Them being weaker gives you much larger to scale for, which is nice - you can have the Tarrasque show up, and start wrecking towns, and the response will be 'Ahhh!' and not 'Eh'. Which is good, when you want a dark world that's not sunshine and daisies, as an 'eh' response isn't thematic.

Now, that said.

I presume problem B is 'You, as the DM, would like to use more threatening encounters more often'.

The easiest solution there is to talk to your players. Tell them straight forward 'I would like to use more powerful encounters than the power level you've built for'. It sounds like they don't particularly care about their power and aren't interested in playing D&D for power purposes, which may mean they are cool with having you build thematically similar characters. (Of course, they may decide that they're fine with what they've got, but that's what discussion is all about).

If you go this route, don't frame it 'You are doing D&D wrong', since you can't really do D&D /wrong/ and that will just make people upset. If nothing else, there have been a plethora of level one commoner games, which shows that really anything eos in D&D.

(If anything, the two are at a fairly similar power level relative to each other, so you don't even have the Angel Summoner/BMX Bandit problem!)

An alternate solution is to pretend the PCs are notably lower level than they actually are. If you imagine your PCs as 'very strong level one characters', then you can plan for encounters based around that - a level /one/ warblade is likely to get beaten up by these two despite them being monks and rogue/swashbucklers. This won't fix severe tier discrepancies (Neither of these two can fly unless you give them magic items to allow them to), but you could have that problem if they elected to have a more optimized rogue and barbarian as well, so eh. It may help!

If you wanted to do this but keep the bad guys around CR 5, then bump up the PC's level but not the NPCs. So imagine them being level 5, but make them level 8 or 10 or something. Again this won't fix tier issues, but it'll again help make straight forward encounters work better.

Hopefully some amount of these tips help!

[emeraldstreak]

Best I can come up with? Double everything on the WBL table. They are going to need those magic items.

Wouldn't help newbs.

[goto124]

Because they don't know how to use the money in a way that actually benefits them greatly?

Still asking to sig thread title.

[emeraldstreak]

A poster said this shouldn't be WoW and I actually agree.

But if the OP wants to run WoW, well, WoW teaches newbies to play it by carefully crafted newcomer levels. Doubling the wealth won't get you anywhere. Actually tailoring encounters and providing the right solutions to winning these encounters instead teaches players the basics of the combat system. Take, for instance, the Otyuh. What are its dangerous attacks? What can counter them? What are its weak spots? What can attack them? Then provide the system solutions to these questions, nudging the players along, holding their hand, but don't do it all: they have to do the final calculations themselves, even if by that point they are rather obvious.

[Maglubiyet]

Is the otyugh going to spring out of a closet on them or something? Couldn't they get an inkling of what they're up against before they actually have to fight it?

Put the monster in a pit and they can see it as they descend. Or maybe have Johnny Redshirt "scout ahead" so they can hear his strangled, high-pitched scream suddenly cut off with a crunching noise. Might allow them to make some preparations. Or in the case of the pit, drop some big rocks.

[endur]

My thought was to create a few companions -- some for hire, some that could be picked up by quests, that would interact with the characters and aid them without (hopefully) overshadowing them. The issue is, how do I create characters that can be of assistance without making the actual characters look like idiots? Would I be better off just slaughtering them and having them re-roll? How can I run a high-challenge campaign when the characters I'm running will be killed by a stiff breeze?

Monsters can be scary through role-playing. Monster can be scary due to the percentage of damage they do to the players they are fighting against. The monsters your players fight don't have to be scary versus some ideal optimized player.

Let's say you really want to use a Hill Giant named Goliath as your BBEG. And you know that your two ECL 5 players can't hurt Goliath unless they get really lucky. Then let them do a quest from God to find a secret weapon called "The Sling of David." They can then strike Goliath dead with a single blow.

Your campaign can be epic and can be all about how two un-optimized players survived insurmountable odds.

I would not add hirelings, henchmen, or other NPCs to the party. The problem with NPC party members is that they take away too much of the focus from the players.

[Spore]

Monsters can be scary through role-playing. Monster can be scary due to the percentage of damage they do to the players they are fighting against. The monsters your players fight don't have to be scary versus some ideal optimized player.

This, soooo much this. I've built on low power for a recent Pathfinder campaign and my Alchemist was almost sliced in half by a decently optimized Samurai and his mooks. If I had gone with my initial impulse of creating a Martial Artist/Barbarian, not only would the hit be a lot less painful, the retaliation would've been much much more powerful. The villain wasn't scary because he could've killed my Alchemist. He was scary because he had his daughter in captivity, threatening to do all sorts of things to her (including getting her back to another continent in order to train her to be an assassin).

I would suggest some form of player involvement in order to stealthbuff the PCs. If the players heard what you said about the Gish Miniboss having a brightly shining amulet and only one of his mirror images has this distinct amulet, you can allow them to ignore the mirror image spell. If the monk PC targets the eyes and hits (through a slightly increased AC) the opponent could be blinded for 1d4 rounds. Invoke a sense of creativity and encourage an eye for detail and it will improve your roleplaying experience as well as improve the players toolbox since their toolbox from classes and races is rather small.