Character help

[Verumsui]

I have made myself a sorcerer with wings, and a longbow. This is a remake of an older character with a similar idea that is no longer being played. Recently I have found that I am not keeping up with some of the melee in my group ( Not something I'm used to, but when the melee can do about 50 damage in a swing at level 4 I'm not too surprised) and I'm looking for ways to make my self a little more deadly. I'm not looking to break the game (Or my DM for that matter) but I would like a bit of a power boost. Any ideas from the excellent minds here?

[Troacctid]

D&D isn't about having everyone deal the most damage. It's better to work together as a team, with everyone filling a synergistic role. You have a primary damage-dealer already, so you don't need to try and fill that role. Let the melee dork handle damage and find a different niche for yourself.

[Verumsui]

D&D isn't about having everyone deal the most damage. It's better to work together as a team, with everyone filling a synergistic role. You have a primary damage-dealer already, so you don't need to try and fill that role. Let the melee dork handle damage and find a different niche for yourself.

Normally I'm inclined to do this. The exception being, I made this character as a damage dealer, and yet I find myself doing very little in comparison. The melee is an ogre and is just crushing everything.

[FocusWolf413]

Are you looking at completely rebuilding your character, future feats, or equipment?

[Verumsui]

Are you looking at completely rebuilding your character, future feats, or equipment?

I'm not quite sure. I wanted to look at some ideas, see what people had in mind, and then decide how far I want to go.

[Troacctid]

Longbows only deal like 1d8 damage, so I'm not sure how you expected to be a striker that way. Most Sorcerers use things like metamagic'd Scorching Rays with CL boosts or whatever. And even then, it is atypical for them to be powerful at level 4; casters start out weak at low levels and only really pick up in power later. In contrast, melee fighters come out of the gates very strong, but quickly plateau and drop off in effectiveness at high levels. So under normal circumstances, you should expect to be behind in the beginning and outpace him later.

What is your build like?

[Rebel7284]

What system are you playing under?

How did you get wings?

Pure damage just won't be on par with a half ogre for a few levels yet.

[Verumsui]

Longbows only deal like 1d8 damage, so I'm not sure how you expected to be a striker that way. Most Sorcerers use things like metamagic'd Scorching Rays with CL boosts or whatever. And even then, it is atypical for them to be powerful at level 4; casters start out weak at low levels and only really pick up in power later. In contrast, melee fighters come out of the gates very strong, but quickly plateau and drop off in effectiveness at high levels. So under normal circumstances, you should expect to be behind in the beginning and outpace him later.

What is your build like?

The longbow is mainly because I always hated running out of spells. Since my char. has wings he often takes to the air when he can. I took a feat that increases my damage when firing from above my target. When I shoot from above my target I do 1d8+1d6. But that is not the focus of the character. I dont have the sheet infront of me now, but I remember the char. has 22dex., 18cha. low strength and average in the rest. He uses kelgores firebolt most of the time, with a few others I only touch depending on the circumstance.

The character is a remake of an old one, before I understood a lot of things, so I know a retouching is in order.

[Verumsui]

What system are you playing under?

How did you get wings?

Pure damage just won't be on par with a half ogre for a few levels yet.

I'm playing 3.5
The wings are a template
He's a full ogre...

[FocusWolf413]

Bard/dragonfire inspiration?

[Darrin]

I'm playing 3.5


Sourcebooks available? Are you allowed you use online material? How about Dragon magazine material?



The wings are a template


The first rule of spellcasters in 3.x: Thou Shalt Not Give Up Caster Levels. Taking a template with level adjustment usually means you're giving up caster levels. There are better ways to fly that don't cost you caster levels. The easiest is probably Dragonborn of Bahumat (Races of the Dragon), which can give you a fly speed of 30' once you have 6 HD or 6 character levels.

As far as the longbow goes, if you want a ranged attack you can use every round, I'd suggest looking at a [Reserve] feat such as Acidic Splatter (Complete Mage).

If you're just looking for pure damage output, then you might want to read up on the Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181) build.

[Grek]

You're probably not going to be able to turn this character into a super damage dealer without completely rebuilding. So I recommend rolling with it and finding ways to use your spells to augment your archery. Get a Flaming Bow and cast Pyrotechnics a lot. Do trick shots with True Strike. When you hit level 6, get Explosive Rune Arrows.

[Madhava]

has 22dex., 18cha. low strength and average in the rest.


I'm playing 3.5
The wings are a template
He's a full ogre...

Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.

•+10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
•Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
•Level adjustment +2.

Okay... so at EL 4, this character should not have any spells, because an ogre doesn't qualify for Sorcerer levels yet. Are you playing a higher level character than the level 4 person in your group?

Also, effectively, you would've had 24 Dex and 22 Cha (base) on a non-ogre.

Is it possible that your group is playing a somewhat-houseruled version of 3.5? If this is the case, then it might be helpful to share the specifics of your group's houserules, if you want any meaningful advice on your build.

But for starters: I'm not sure from where the extra d6 of damage on the longbow is coming from. But you'd be better off with a size L longbow, rather than size M. Also, get a bow that allows you to apply your strength bonus, because low strength on an ogre is still 16 or 18. Or even better, use wands instead of a bow.

[WeaselGuy]

Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.

•+10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
•Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
•Level adjustment +2.

Okay... so at EL 4, this character should not have any spells, because an ogre doesn't qualify for Sorcerer levels yet. Are you playing a higher level character than the level 4 person in your group?

Also, effectively, you would've had 24 Dex and 22 Cha (base) on a non-ogre.

Is it possible that your group is playing a somewhat-houseruled version of 3.5? If this is the case, then it might be helpful to share the specifics of your group's houserules, if you want any meaningful advice on your build.

But for starters: I'm not sure from where the extra d6 of damage on the longbow is coming from. But you'd be better off with a size L longbow, rather than size M. Also, get a bow that allows you to apply your strength bonus, because low strength on an ogre is still 16 or 18. Or even better, use wands instead of a bow.

Pretty sure the OPs Sorcerer isn't the Ogre, instead it's the melee chump outdamaging him that's the Ogre. The Sorcerer is some other race with the Winged Creature template.

My advice, if you really want to stick with a winged sorcerer archer, there are a couple ways to do this. Option 1 would be to become a Sorcadin Gish. Easy way is to be an Star Elf with the Winged Creature template. Go Paladin of Freedom 3/Sorcerer 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Arcane Archer 1/Abjurant Champion +3/Eldritch Knight 5. Take Point Blank Shot, Plunging Shot and Combat Casting for your first 3 feats, and Precise Shot for your 4th feat. You get BAB 16 at the end of this, and casting as a 9th level Sorcerer. Not super impressive, in my humble opinion.

Option B: Winged Gray Elf Wizard 1/Ranger 5 with Sword of the Arcane Order as your 6th level feat. Do the Archery combat styles for ranger. Now go with Arcane Archer and Abjurant Champion to taste. Bit more elegant, but with Wizard, so not so much on the spontaneous casting. Sample build would be Wizard 1/Ranger 5/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 1/Abjurant Champion +4/Eldritch Knight 6. BAB 17 and casting as a 17th level Wizard. Much better.

Here's what I would do if you still wanted to be a sorcerer (Note: Not primarily an Archer). Switch to the Raptoran race (Races of the Wild), then take the Raptoran Sorcerer Racial Substitution level at levels 1 & 5. Go Sorcerer for 6 levels, then take the Stormcaster prestige class from the Stormwrack book. If you're feeling froggy at the end of all that, ask your DM if he will change Skypledged to an Arcane theme instead of the Divine theme presented in Races of the Wild. If not, finish the build off with either Archmage or Abjurant Champion. If you do the former (again, my recommendation) take metamagic feats while leveling up. If you do the latter, take ranged combat feats to the same tune of what I mentioned in the first option.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An Ogre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm) has four levels of Giant and a +2 LA, so that's a 6th level character before he even starts taking class levels. This may be part of the problem. Note that racial HD are not optional, if you're playing a member of that race then you have all of that race's features and traits, good or bad.

If you gained wings from the Winged Creature template in Savage Species for a +2 LA, then you should only have two levels of Sorcerer, which is not very good. If you're using the White Dragonspawn template from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, it gives you wings, natural armor, and +1 level of Sorcerer spellcasting for a +1 LA, so you'll still have Sorcerer 4 spellcasting with three levels of Sorcerer at your current level.

Make your bow an Elvencraft (Composite) Longbow, from Races of the Wild, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a bow. You'll need to buy masterwork three times, but it should be able to hold three wand chambers from Dungeonscape. Put Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on it so its perception of time goes 365 times slower, so spells cast on it such as Greater Magic Weapon will last 365 times longer. Hire an NPC spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to put a caster level 20th Extended Greater Magic Weapon on it, which should cost only 800 gp per casting (you'll need separate ones for the bow and for the ends of the staff), that will make it a +5 weapon for 608 days. You can also make it an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) to help get around your limited number of spells known, and also to upgrade it with weapon special properties, though you'll need to make it permanently +1 before adding those.

Sorcerers don't really get any spells that make them better at archery. The best class to use for this is Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), since it can learn Ranger spells and has the skills to use Knowledge Devotion. Even a Fighter is more capable of archery than a Sorcerer, due to BAB and bonus feats. Check out an Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642) for ways to improve your archery abilities.

[Hiro Quester]

Two levels of Arcane archer with split arrow feat can improve a blasty sorcerer archer's effectiveness.

Arcane archer 2 gets imbue arrows with spells and split doubles their effectiveness. One imbued becomes two. One bestow curse becomes two. The target has to save for each independently. Even if they make the save on both arrows, take half damage from two arrows equals ful damage pf the original spell.

But you lose two caster levels to do that. And it's probably better for a fighter or ranger archer with a few levels of sorcerer, for the archery prerequisites.

But also, as others have said, your blasting wil catch up and outpace the ogre. If you don't lose caster levels. An airborne artillerist cannon can do very well, without arcane archer shenanigans.

[Lorddenorstrus]

DM of that game <

If it ends out not being up to par for what he wants I can let him remake the character to an extent.. but we've already started so the wings gotta stay. Feats everything else is fine. I redid the 3.0 Wings template to fit better with the other wings I've found from 3.5 (I also suggested Dragon Born but he didn't want to look scaly) He got +4 dex and x2 land speed wings at LA +1

I am trying to watch the power level of everyone in the group so far I believe we are fine the Ogre is going to start of monstrously strong but hey it's a melee they start out great then fall off from lack of scaling. As the group progresses he should start nuking cities once he's high enough level (figure of speech no i dont want my story important cities nuked -_- ) I am not 100% sure he's ever built an optimized Sorcerer though I'll probably link him a guide. Thank you for the suggestions and help everyone though! :smallsmile:

[DGIF2015]

I have made myself a sorcerer with wings, and a longbow. This is a remake of an older character with a similar idea that is no longer being played. Recently I have found that I am not keeping up with some of the melee in my group ( Not something I'm used to, but when the melee can do about 50 damage in a swing at level 4 I'm not too surprised) and I'm looking for ways to make my self a little more deadly. I'm not looking to break the game (Or my DM for that matter) but I would like a bit of a power boost. Any ideas from the excellent minds here?


Let me get this straight...

You made a sorcerer at level 4 and aren't happy that you're not able to keep up with an OGRE pure damage-wise?!?!

I'm guessing you do know a little bit about the game you're playing so telling you that casters start weak and end up godly shouldn't be required.

You've been given some excellent advice here....

My advice to you would be to build your caster properly.....don't try to be cute and weaken yourself. In time you'll be the MAN and the ogre will stand in awe at your damage. No need for jealousy......just put on your big boy pants and ride it out. You guys are on the same team!! High level casters are amazing so just enjoy the campaign.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Pretty sure the OPs Sorcerer isn't the Ogre, instead it's the melee chump outdamaging him that's the Ogre. The Sorcerer is some other race with the Winged Creature template.

My advice, if you really want to stick with a winged sorcerer archer, there are a couple ways to do this. Option 1 would be to become a Sorcadin Gish. Easy way is to be an Star Elf with the Winged Creature template. Go Paladin of Freedom 3/Sorcerer 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Arcane Archer 1/Abjurant Champion +3/Eldritch Knight 5. Take Point Blank Shot, Plunging Shot and Combat Casting for your first 3 feats, and Precise Shot for your 4th feat. You get BAB 16 at the end of this, and casting as a 9th level Sorcerer. Not super impressive, in my humble opinion.

Option B: Winged Gray Elf Wizard 1/Ranger 5 with Sword of the Arcane Order as your 6th level feat. Do the Archery combat styles for ranger. Now go with Arcane Archer and Abjurant Champion to taste. Bit more elegant, but with Wizard, so not so much on the spontaneous casting. Sample build would be Wizard 1/Ranger 5/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 1/Abjurant Champion +4/Eldritch Knight 6. BAB 17 and casting as a 17th level Wizard. Much better.

::SNIP::

Where on earth are you pulling the math from for these two options? The first one has casting of a Sorcerer 13, not 9. The second has casting of a Wizard 11, not 17. You are way off!

Edit: Double checked my math and you had the BAB correct after all.

Edit 2: It occurred to me that you might be under the mistaken impression that Sword of the Arcane Order advances Wizard casting the same way prestige classes do. This is not the case. SotAO allows Ranger, Paladin, and Wizard to stack for total caster level but nothing else.

[Boost]

I have made myself a sorcerer with wings, and a longbow. This is a remake of an older character with a similar idea that is no longer being played. Recently I have found that I am not keeping up with some of the melee in my group ( Not something I'm used to, but when the melee can do about 50 damage in a swing at level 4 I'm not too surprised) and I'm looking for ways to make my self a little more deadly. I'm not looking to break the game (Or my DM for that matter) but I would like a bit of a power boost. Any ideas from the excellent minds here?

Use your spells to improve your archery attacks and damage, and you can outdo the Ogre's damage without needing all of the prestige classes or complete rebuilds that everyone else is suggesting.

Haste (use a scroll if you're not high enough level for it yet) and the Rapid Shot feat will combine to give you a total of three attacks per round to the Ogre's one. And all three attacks are at your full BAB (-2 for Rapid Shot, +1 for Haste). Then cast Flame Arrows for another +1d6 fire damage and Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium) for another +1d6 sonic damage. Plus you've already got another +1d6 from your feat. Now, without having to change your class or add another template, you can potentially do 3d8+9d6 damage per round plus whatever you get from the bow's magical bonus (if any) and Str bonus with a composite bow (and if you cast Bull's Strength, you can increase that further as well). If you had 10 Str before Bull's Strength (giving you a +2 Str bonus after Bull's Strength), and a +1 bow (either buying a magical bow or using the Magic Weapon spell), that makes it 3d8+9d6+9. Average damage per round = 54.

In a few levels, start crafting some homemade spells like Greater Flame Arrow to increase your damage. Add buffs like Cat's Grace and Heroism to increase your chance to hit. Cast Enlarge Person to increase your bow damage from 1d8 per hit (3d8 per round) to 2d6 per hit (6d6 per round).

[WeaselGuy]

Where on earth are you pulling the math from for these two options? The first one has casting of a Sorcerer 13, not 9. The second has casting of a Wizard 11, not 17. You are way off!

Edit: Double checked my math and you had the BAB correct after all.

Edit 2: It occurred to me that you might be under the mistaken impression that Sword of the Arcane Order advances Wizard casting the same way prestige classes do. This is not the case. SotAO allows Ranger, Paladin, and Wizard to stack for total caster level but nothing else.

I was pretty certain about my BAB, but I do seem to be off on my sorcerer casting. I honestly don't know how I came up with 9. But really, both of my builds need to be tweaked to include an additional level of Arcane Archer for the Imbue Arrow ability, thereby decreasing the caster level of each build by an additional 1.

Now, with regards to SotAO...


Sword of the Arcane Order

( Champions of Valor, p. 34)

[General]

Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic.
Prerequisite
Paladin 4th of Azuth or Mystra, or ranger 4th of Mystra; member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire (see page 102), the Order of the Shooting Star (see Knights of the Mystic Fire, page 102), or the Swords of the High One (see page 104),
Benefit
You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifi er (as if you were a wizard). These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character's spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook; see Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks, page 178 of the Player's Handbook, for details). If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.
Special
Azuth has a paladin order called the Swords of the High One. Mystra has a paladin order called the Knights of the Mystic Fire and a closely allied group of rangers called the Order of the Shooting Star. Members of all three of these groups can select this feat as long as they are at least 4th level in their respective order's primary class.

I read the last part of the Benefits section "your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin and ranger class levels" to mean Wizard 1/Ranger 5 = casting as Wizard 6. Am I wrong in that interpretation, and that all it really means is SotAO is basically Improved Practiced Spellcaster?

In either event, I still prefer the Stormcaster build, but it doesn't really fit with the OPs character view.

[General Sajaru]

I read the last part of the Benefits section "your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin and ranger class levels" to mean Wizard 1/Ranger 5 = casting as Wizard 6. Am I wrong in that interpretation, and that all it really means is SotAO is basically Improved Practiced Spellcaster?

You'd be at Caster Level 6, but your spell count would only be that of a Wizard 1 plus a Ranger 5; i.e. 3-0th and 1-1st level spells from the wizard plus an additional 0-1st level spells from the ranger. I'd say that you'd be able to double up on bonus spells from a high intelligence, but you wouldn't have access to any higher level spells the way a 6th level Wizard would.