Sanity/balance check: What happens if your Reflex Save bonus adds to your Initiative?

[tordirycgoyust]

My thinking here is that:
1. Reflex Saves and Initiative are thematically linked.
2. Reflex Saves are the least valuable Saves, so a buff isn't out of line.
3. Tier 1 and 2 classes don't have good Reflex Saves, so it's a way to give non-casters nice(r) things. Not that it helps much against Dire Tortoises and Celerity, but it's something.

So, is this a good idea, Playground, or am I an idiot who's missing something completely obvious?

[Blackhawk748]

My group started using it, its nice seeing Rogues go before the Nerveskitter mage. Honestly its not crazy or OP its just a nice little buff

[Darrin]

This is the first house rule my local group adopted for all our 3.5 games, regardless of who was DMing: Ref save = Init bonus. I am befuddled that this was never adopted in 4E.

[Wacky89]

What about improved initiative would that grant a bonus to reflex save?

[atemu1234]

What about improved initiative would that grant a bonus to reflex save?

I don't use this houserule, but nah. It'd probably just be to initiative checks, instead of reflex and initiative.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It's certainly not a bad idea. I'm normally against implementing most houserules in 3.X games because the game is complicated enough already that I don't like piling on. This is a simple enough change that it might warrant implementation, though.

[Darrin]

What about improved initiative would that grant a bonus to reflex save?

By our rules, no. Although it's a very narrowly defined bonus, it's still a pretty decent feat, and adding it to all Ref saves would probably make Lightning Reflexes go sob quietly in a corner.

[Ashtagon]

I've seen the following variants:

Dexterity: 3e default.

Initiative "skill": Imposes a skill point tax, and it's so vitally important that everyone will max it out anyway.

Reflex save: I kind of like this.

[Ernir]

Consequences I can think of:


Factotums will be sad.
Tier 1 casters have great options to buff their saving throws, even if their base saves are bad.


I like that it reduces the number of squares on the character sheet that I need to remember.

By our rules, no. Although it's a very narrowly defined bonus, it's still a pretty decent feat, and adding it to all Ref saves would probably make Lightning Reflexes go sob quietly in a corner.

To be fair, Lightning Reflexes spends a whole lot of time sobbing in that corner anyway. :smalltongue:

[Zanos]

At first glance it seems like monsters will often go before PCs. Good reflex saves are pretty common on many enemies that aren't immediately considered agile. I guess it gives good ref save classes a running chance against buffed full-casters, but the bigger problem is that many classes with poor ref saves are going to have all the good ref monsters running over them on the first round.

[kellbyb]

To be fair, Lightning Reflexes spends a whole lot of time sobbing in that corner anyway. :smalltongue:

What's lightning reflexes? Yes, this is a joke.

[Curmudgeon]

What's lightning reflexes? Yes, this is a joke.
A must-have feat, because it makes you fast like lightning. That's the answer you were looking for, right?

[Ashtagon]

What's lightning reflexes? Yes, this is a joke.

It's a prerequisite feat for entering the lightning warrior prestige class, which is really rather good (aside from the lack of a familiar).

[Glimbur]

You could also consider having only your Base reflex save apply as a bonus, rather than the entire save bonus. That gives some love to Rogues etc without making a Cloak of Resistance any better than it already is.

[Boost]

2. Reflex Saves are the least valuable Saves, so a buff isn't out of line.


As a rogue with Improved Evasion, I have to disagree with this statement.

Sure, a Fort or Will save is more likely to be the "make this roll or you DIE" type of save. But I get hit with AoEs more often than I get hit with any other type of effect, whether it be a wizard's fireball or a dragon's breath weapon. My reflex saves tend to do more for me than my Fort or Will saves ever do.

[Coidzor]

Having it just be the base save + dexterity and disregarding other bonuses to one's reflex save should probably be fine if you're worried about lots of buffing for initiative.

[Xerlith]

I myself like to use BAB as a bonus to Initiative.
But only the one derived from class levels (so nope, Divine Powered Cleric). It has some flair to it, but you end with a +20 on a 20th level Fighter. In my testing group I had to tone it down to half-BAB because the ToB-heavy melee had too much fun with it.

[Troacctid]

As a rogue with Improved Evasion, I have to disagree with this statement.

Sure, a Fort or Will save is more likely to be the "make this roll or you DIE" type of save. But I get hit with AoEs more often than I get hit with any other type of effect, whether it be a wizard's fireball or a dragon's breath weapon. My reflex saves tend to do more for me than my Fort or Will saves ever do.

I generally agree. Reflex saves might be the most forgiving if you fail them, but they're also really common, and it would be foolish to overlook them.

Reflex saves are actually in an interesting spot where their usefulness is basically inversely proportional to how many hit points you have. If you have a lot of HP, it's like, whatever, I fail the save and take extra damage, big whoop, I'm nowhere near 0 HP either way. But if you're squishy, then a failed Reflex save can mean a straight-up OHKO. I'm pretty sure at least like a third of the PC deaths in my games have been the result of failed Reflex saves against explosions or similar effects that knocked them down to -10 HP.

I think replacing initiative with Reflex is the sort of thing that makes much more sense as a feat than as a universal rule.