Deep Gnomes are powerful!

[supergoji18]

Just took a look at the new races for the Elemental Evil PDF, and holy crap! The Deep Gnomes are rediculous!

They get free spells at 1st level with the Deep Gnome spellcasting feat, they get ADVANTAGE ON INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM AND CHARISMA SAVING THROWS, AND ADVANTAGE ON STEALTH CHECKS WHEN IN ROCKY TERRAIN (which is about 90% of the terrain you will encounter in dungeons and open fields). The advantage on wisdom saves was enough to make them amazing, but the rest of it seems almost unnecessary.

With all of those abilities, how are these guys not the rulers of the Underdark? The advantage on the intelligence and wisdom saving throws alone would make them the bane of the Mind Flayers, and the advantage to stealth would make them better assassins than the DROW!

Does anyone else feel they are really powerful as a race?

[Gritmonger]

Just took a look at the new races for the Elemental Evil PDF, and holy crap! The Deep Gnomes are rediculous!

They get free spells at 1st level with the Deep Gnome spellcasting feat, they get ADVANTAGE ON INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM AND CHARISMA SAVING THROWS, AND ADVANTAGE ON STEALTH CHECKS WHEN IN ROCKY TERRAIN (which is about 90% of the terrain you will encounter in dungeons and open fields). The advantage on wisdom saves was enough to make them amazing, but the rest of it seems almost unnecessary.

With all of those abilities, how are these guys not the rulers of the Underdark? The advantage on the intelligence and wisdom saving throws alone would make them the bane of the Mind Flayers, and the advantage to stealth would make them better assassins than the DROW!

Does anyone else feel they are really powerful as a race?

I think (and I could be wrong here...) that all gnomes got the advantage on Int, Wis, and Cha saving throws versus magic, not just the deep gnomes. And Forest Gnomes also got an illusion cantrip at first level - the Deep Gnomes have to take a feat, which means their spellcasting has to wait until fourth level at least.

[Oscredwin]

Yeah, they make good arcane tricksters and sneaky wizards (who pick up stealth from a background). They might be my favorite race for those builds, but that's a small corner of the game.

[EvanescentHero]

I'm far more hung up on them getting Superior Darkvision without the accompanying Sunlight Sensitivity, especially considering the fluff says they usually don't see the light of day. That spellcasting feat is fourth level at the earliest, so I don't see a problem there. I'm also kinda happy to see racial feats return; I think those are a good way to give specific races more options that are too powerful for the beginning of the game.

[Naanomi]

I've always loved svirfneblin; my favorite type of gnome since 2e. Glad to have them as a PC option in my campaign (now if we could just get a goblinoid or two)

[supergoji18]

I'm far more hung up on them getting Superior Darkvision without the accompanying Sunlight Sensitivity, especially considering the fluff says they usually don't see the light of day. That spellcasting feat is fourth level at the earliest, so I don't see a problem there. I'm also kinda happy to see racial feats return; I think those are a good way to give specific races more options that are too powerful for the beginning of the game.

And meanwhile, the Drow not only get Unlight Sensitivity, but are also very weak by comparison to the advantage on saves

[Elderand]

And meanwhile, the Drow not only get Unlight Sensitivity, but are also very weak by comparison to the advantage on saves

They don't have advantage on saves, they have advantages on those saves vs magic they have no special defense against non magic that target those saves.

Also their advantage on stealth check in rocky terrain might not be as good as you think depending on how you interpret rocky terrain. In caverns or on moutains sure, but it doesn't help in forest, plains, swamp, snow fields and it might not help in dungeon or cities if the stone has been worked.

Meanwhile their spellcasting is feat dependent, meaning they don't have access to it before level 4, at which point you're trading an ability increase for a few spells at their lowest level and that's assuming feats are allowed.

[Kryx]

The Deep Gnome is not good. At all.

Compare it to the Forest Gnome and all it gets is a longer darkvision and hiding.

I'm really disappointed that they didn't stick with the stats in the DMG and add some spellcasting from there as well.

[Person_Man]

Intelligence is basically worthless for non-Wizards. (Arcane Tricksters and Eldridge Knights rarely use spells offensively. They don't have very many, they scale very poorly, and they generally have better things to do). So the +2 Int bonus that all Gnomes get is basically wasted unless you're a Wizard.

Movement speed can be very important if your DM uses a map for combat (as opposed to theater of the mind, which is the default). It is also important if you want to use kiting tactics, which scouts (Rogue/Ranger/Monk/etc) often utilize.

Many DMs basically ignore the 60 ft limitation on Darkvision because they don't keep track of precise distances in the theater of the mind. Either you have it (and don't need to use a light source) or you don't (and then you do need to use a light source, and can't use Stealth in the dark while remaining hidden). So 120 ft of Darkvision vs. 60 ft is only meaningful in certain niche situations.

One of the other races (Earth Gensai?) in the same supplement gets access to Pass Without Trace (+10 Stealth, 1 hour, Concentration) once per day, which in my opinion is superior to Advantage in rocky terrain. In particular, I think many DMs would only consider unworked stone (mines, caves, mountains, etc) "rocky" terrain, which excludes manufactured stone, which would exclude most structures (like giant elemental temples, castles, crypts, etc).

In summary, I think its a respectable choice for Wizards that want to use Stealth, but is not worth considering for most other builds.

[Nachtritter]

All I know is that there's a secret cabal of deep gnome spellcasters bent on world domination in my world now. Comparative to the other gnomes or not, they certainly make for hellacious casters.

[Yagyujubei]

i mean....elves get sleep immunity and adv. against charms which is basically as good. INT and CHA are rarely targeted saves, and many WIS saves are for charm effects anyway. aside from that (and this is house ruley and my opinion) but most drow would def. have at least a piwafwi right out of the gate which offers a stealth bonus as well.

[Osiris]

Just took a look at the new races for the Elemental Evil PDF, and holy crap! The Deep Gnomes are ridiculous!

They get free spells at 1st level with the Deep Gnome spellcasting feat

Wait a second, they don't get bonus feats at first level, do they? Thus, you can't really get "free" spellcasting until level four at the earliest!

[Specter]

It's a shame Intelligence is so pigeon-holed to Wizards and 2 archetypes in 5e, otherwise many other classes could rock these gnomes.

[Vemynal]

I mean it's pretty clear from the UA that the Mystic (Psion) class will also be Int based once its released.

[MaxWilson]

The Deep Gnome is not good. At all.

Compare it to the Forest Gnome and all it gets is a longer darkvision and hiding.

I'm really disappointed that they didn't stick with the stats in the DMG and add some spellcasting from there as well.

Considering the fact that "longer darkvision" means "advantage on all your ranged attacks between 61' and 120'" in the Underdark, and disadvantage to your attackers, I don't see how you can speak so dismissively of it.

Advantage on hiding is pretty good too.

Not to mention the Arcane Ward cheese from the feat.

[LordVonDerp]

in the Underdark,

There's your problem.

[MaxWilson]

There's your problem.

Svirfneblins come from the Underdark.

Long-range darkvision is also useful on the surface for approximately 50% of each 24-hour cycle.

[JackPhoenix]

Svirfneblins come from the Underdark.

Long-range darkvision is also useful on the surface for approximately 50% of each 24-hour cycle.

Sure, but pretty much anyone in the Underdark have the long range Darkvision anyway [citation needed], so it's no advantage for the gnome.

It's better on the surface, but about half the inhabitants [citation needed again] lacks the Darkvision there, so any Darkvision is better then what they have, it doesn't have to be the longer version.

[MaxWilson]

Sure, but pretty much anyone in the Underdark have the long range Darkvision anyway [citation needed], so it's no advantage for the gnome.

It's better on the surface, but about half the inhabitants [citation needed again] lacks the Darkvision there, so any Darkvision is better then what they have, it doesn't have to be the longer version.

Against things with 120' Darkvision, the benefit lies in them not getting advantage against you--drow, instead of being utterly brutal, will merely be tough.

But I don't think most things in the Underdark do have 120' darkvision. Most monsters in the MM have 60' darkvision. There are exceptions, but I don't think they're anywhere close to a majority unless the DM deliberately aims for 120' darkvision on everything. Let me check... [pause] Elementals, Galeb Duhr, Cambions, Intellect Devourers, Mummies, Spirit Nagas, Medusas, Basilisks... hmmm, I guess it's mostly the powerful demons/dragons/beholders/mind flayers that have 120' darkvision/blindsight/truesight. It's more of an even split than I thought, perhaps 60% 60' and 40% 120'.

[supergoji18]

It's better on the surface, but about half the inhabitants [citation needed again] lacks the Darkvision there, so any Darkvision is better then what they have, it doesn't have to be the longer version.
Good sir, have you not read the monster manual or the player's hand book? I'm almost convinced that darkvision is the norm and only humans are the exception.

[JackPhoenix]

Good sir, have you not read the monster manual or the player's hand book? I'm almost convinced that darkvision is the norm and only humans are the exception.

True, I keep forgeting this is not 3.5/PF, and Darkvision and Low-light vision aren't different things anymore

[Temperjoke]

I hear Deep Gnomes are good at necromancy too, they know where everything is buried >.>

I did consider making one, but our adventure isn't in the Underdark, so he wouldn't have been as fun to play.

[Segev]

True, I keep forgeting this is not 3.5/PF, and Darkvision and Low-light vision aren't different things anymore

Well... elves, at least, have that whole ability to see twice as far in dim light thing, on top of their darkvision.

[MaxWilson]

Well... elves, at least, have that whole ability to see twice as far in dim light thing, on top of their darkvision.

Huh, wait, what? In 5E?

Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. You mean the whole "dim light counts as bright light if within 60'", right? Yeah, that's true for all the PC races, and in fact as a DM I'd rule that that's also given to any monster with "Darkvision 60'", even though the MM doesn't call it out. There's no need to have needless differences in technical jargon between PCs and monsters.

[eastmabl]

Good sir, have you not read the monster manual or the player's hand book? I'm almost convinced that darkvision is the norm and only humans are the exception.

Hobbits are similarly blind in the lack of light.