In a world without LA

[Dramorake]

My dm is running a New campaign and he claimed all races Will be the same except he is removing the LA and effective character levels. So in your opinion what would be the best race/build I can make without dealing with LA or ECL?

[Flickerdart]

So, uh...does that mean you're not allowed to play races with LA/RHD, or all races have 0 LA and RHD?

[With a box]

Can I play a solar? :)
20th cleric casting and entire truck of good SLA for free!

[Ephemeral_Being]

Is he also going to remove Racial HD? Just curious. Because your post only mentioned LA.

[Seclora]

So, uh...does that mean you're not allowed to play races with LA/RHD, or all races have 0 LA and RHD?
If it's the latter, then anyone not playing a dragon is selling themselves short. Full Metallic Alchemist party is go!

[Studoku]

Before anyone says "just play a solar" or "just play a dragon", templates.

Can we have all the templates?

[Dramorake]

So, uh...does that mean you're not allowed to play races with LA/RHD, or all races have 0 LA and RHD?

All races are level 1. They lose no ability and all races and classes are open except tome of battle

[sakuuya]

Before anyone says "just play a solar" or "just play a dragon", templates.

Can we have all the templates?

A dragon or a solar...with all the templates!

[Seclora]

Before anyone says "just play a solar" or "just play a dragon", templates.

Can we have all the templates?

Paragon Multi-Headed Half-Celestial Gold Dragon Saint?

[Dramorake]

Is he also going to remove Racial HD? Just curious. Because your post only mentioned LA.

Yes.
We are starting at lvl 1 No matter what

[Dramorake]

Before anyone says "just play a solar" or "just play a dragon", templates.

Can we have all the templates?

There we no other rules other then no tome of battle. Idk why

[With a box]

Is there a template that give you some deity ranks?

[Eloel]

Just go Ghost with infinity+1 evolved undead templates. Possibly on some sort of Dragon chassis.

[Sir Chuckles]

Just go Ghost with infinity+1 evolved undead templates. Possibly on some sort of Dragon chassis.

To go along with this, ask him how old the world is.
Divide that by 100, and that's how many Evolved Undead templates you have.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Yes.
We are starting at lvl 1 No matter what

Tell your DM he needs to set some clearer guidelines.

He needs to pick either a maximum LA you can have, or tell you what books you're allowed to use. Because right now, the game is over before you ever level. I'm 100% serious here. What people are suggesting will almost literally turn you into a god at first level. And technically, based on what you said, entirely legal.

[gooddragon1]

I don't think you should abuse it personally. I'd go for something that compliments your class abilities nicely.

Personally, something that isn't totally imbalanced but kinda cool and nets you some spellcasting: Half-Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm)

You get wings (and a flight speed) which is always nice. Some Damage Reduction. Some spell resistance. Some nice spell like abilities and some good ability boosts.

Overall, it's a nice package, but it's not horribly broken like a paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) young gold dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon)

I think that would be LA +15 or something whereas Half-Celestial is LA +4 which isn't going completely overboard.

Your DM could even say (if they have a problem with Resurrection 1/day no material component at level 19): "A representative of mechanus (marut) informs you that using Resurrection too much without the material component could be considered flagrant disregard for the natural order and that (insert sidequest here) should be performed before using it." Or just require that you use the material component anyways.

[YossarianLives]

All races are level 1. They lose no ability and all races and classes are open except tome of battle

Dear god...

Play a great wyrm dragon with every template.

[weckar]

For some actual fun, instead of godliness: Feral Stony [Whatever].

Enjoy never dying to hit point damage until level 15 or so.

[Karl Aegis]

Nah, got to be a Spellweaver with its 10,000 mile telepathy for mindsight and its SHENANIGANS ability.

[Dramorake]

Tell your DM he needs to set some clearer guidelines.

He needs to pick either a maximum LA you can have, or tell you what books you're allowed to use. Because right now, the game is over before you ever level. I'm 100% serious here. What people are suggesting will almost literally turn you into a god at first level. And technically, based on what you said, entirely legal.

We have said this. He didn't listen. Now trying to break the game without pun pun

[kellbyb]

I'd go with a Sarrukh druid, with a focus on summoning. Whenever any challenge rises, just summon a snake and use manipulate form to give it whatever custom ability that will instantly overcome said challenge.

[sakuuya]

Be a demilich. A foot demilich.

Anything from the ELH is a good choice, actually, but steamrolling everything as a flying foot seems extra-ridiculous.

[Seclora]

We have said this. He didn't listen. Now trying to break the game without pun pun

Nah, don't break it.
In all seriousness, just pick the wackiest combo you can imagine and actually do it. Red Dragon Ninja? Doable. Half-Troll, Half-Fey, Half Celestial, Anthropomorphic Bear VoP Monk Saint? Why not? Paragon Psuedonatural Phrenic Evolved Ghost Solar Archivist? You sultry minx, stop falling in love with me. Paragon Lilitu Druid with the Possession ability? You are going to love me! Modron bard? Are you sure you want to be Claptrap? Seriously?
Ignore optimization, do whatever you think sounds cool.

[kellbyb]

Nah, don't break it.
In all seriousness, just pick the wackiest combo you can imagine and actually do it. Red Dragon Ninja? Doable. Half-Troll, Half-Fey, Half Celestial, Anthropomorphic Bear VoP Monk Saint? Why not? Paragon Psuedonatural Phrenic Evolved Ghost Solar Archivist? You sultry minx, stop falling in love with me. Paragon Lilitu Druid with the Possession ability? You are going to love me! Modron bard? Are you sure you want to be Claptrap? Seriously?
Ignore optimization, do whatever you think sounds cool.

I know it's also a very powerful choice, but I also want to play a spellweaver for flavor reasons. They're so badass.

[Douglas]

We have said this. He didn't listen. Now trying to break the game without pun pun
Ok then. Solar is chump change. Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon). Add the Paragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm), along with half-dragon once each for every single (other) kind of dragon ever printed, half-celestial, half-fiendish, phrenic, saint, and whatever other templates you care to throw in. Enjoy ability scores in the hundreds with casting as a level 38 Sorcerer. And then you get to add a class level.

[Eloel]

Ok then. Solar is chump change. Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon). Add the Paragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm), along with half-dragon once each for every single (other) kind of dragon ever printed, half-celestial, half-fiendish, phrenic, saint, and whatever other templates you care to throw in. Enjoy ability scores in the hundreds with casting as a level 38 Sorcerer. And then you get to add a class level.

Again, there are infinitely stackable templates (evolved undead is one). Your dragon is chump change :smalltongue:

[SowZ]

I would be unable to make a character until I saw what everyone else was doing. If everyone else had an ECL of 9 and I showed up with an ECL of 20, I'd feel like a jerk. If everyone else had an ECL of 28, however, I'd feel cheated if mine was only 12. See what everyone else does and aim for the same ballpark.

[Seclora]

I know it's also a very powerful choice, but I also want to play a spellweaver for flavor reasons. They're so badass.

Just looked over the Spellweaver. Anyone else notice that their telepathy only allows them to communicate with one another?

They'd make great Ultimate Magi though. Spell Weaver Super Mail Man!

[kellbyb]

Just looked over the Spellweaver. Anyone else notice that their telepathy only allows them to communicate with one another?

They'd make great Ultimate Magi though. Spell Weaver Super Mail Man!

Pile on the metamagic! I'm looking at you, fell drain...

[One Step Two]

If we're gonna rock without LA, no matter what you take, always feel free to throw Vampire + Master Vampire + As many levels of Evolved undead you like on top.

Leadership, supidly good stat buffs, undying immortality, and unlike regaulr chump vampires, sunlight and running water do bupkiss.

[Crake]

Again, there are infinitely stackable templates (evolved undead is one). Your dragon is chump change :smalltongue:

There are things that trump infinitely stacked things to any degree. Epic level spells are one of them

[Eloel]

There are things that trump infinitely stacked things to any degree. Epic level spells are one of them
Excuse me if I don't agree over infinite saves, HP and AC. Also, +infinite to diplomacy means your caster is now serving me.

[Douglas]

Excuse me if I don't agree over infinite saves, HP and AC. Also, +infinite to diplomacy means your caster is now serving me.
PCs are immune to diplomacy.

There are things that trump infinitely stacked things to any degree. Epic level spells are one of them
Sadly, epic spells require spending epic feats, which get stripped along with the hit dice. 9th level spells at caster level 38 is still plenty to trump mere high stats if used well, though.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Your DM is so harsh, he didn't even let you keep all the RHD but be treated as level 1 for xp and encounter level purposes? What a jerk, now you won't be able to abuse wording vagueness with Archmage to get Epic spells as SLAs. :smallfrown:

Some people are so unreasonable.

[Ruethgar]

He said he was removing effective character level not RHD. As an example, the lesser demonic orcs and trolls are creatures with ECLs of +0 and several RHD each. Also, if you are a great wyrm dragon your HD doesn't matter, you could be drained down to 1HD and you would still have the ability to take epic feats thanks to the Dracinomicon.

[OldTrees1]

My dm is running a New campaign and he claimed all races Will be the same except he is removing the LA and effective character levels. So in your opinion what would be the best race/build I can make without dealing with LA or ECL?

Ask your DM about his expectations for the campaign. I am pretty confident you should avoid every race mentioned in this thread.

My suggestion: Choose a random monster manuel and read through it without looking at RHD/ECL/LA and pick what sounds neatest rather than what sounds the most OP.

[Forrestfire]

For all the people suggesting Prismatic Dragons, you're thinking too small :smalltongue:

Great Wyrm Time Dragons, with their at-will time stop, 90+ hit dice, ridiculous casting and stats, and free out of combat time travel to whenever they want.

(More seriously, this seems like a game to play some concept you wanted to but couldn't, and not work to break it. If everyone's on the same page, it could be quite fun! I'd probably end up playing something like a were-mob of animals, just for fun).

[Troacctid]

My suggestion: Choose a random monster manuel and read through it without looking at RHD/ECL/LA and pick what sounds neatest rather than what sounds the most OP.

My suggestion is the same thing, except that the monster you pick should be the neatest one that also casts 9th level spells, and you should give it the paragon template. :smallwink:

[Sir Chuckles]

Though, in all honestly, the "best" thing to do is...
Ask and see.

Ask the other players what they're building, tell us, and we'll likely be able to make several dozen suggestions that are world damaging, but not overshadowing. Because if the next best thing is a Feral Dragonborn Jungle Dwarf Mineral Warrior Wildshape Ranger, you should, as a person in a collaborative game, adjust accordingly.

[Necroticplague]

If I was in something with these rules, my thought process would be: finally, I can actually play a protean! Normally they have too many HD (though oddly enough, negative LA).

[ShurikVch]

Is there a template that give you some deity ranks? Yes.
Einherjar from Deities & Demigods
Required character level 10 in low-tier full-BAB class

[atemu1234]

Maybe he wants to use CR as ECL? Pathfinder did that, and it's broken on the other end as opposed to the LA rules.

This is why I use a different set altogether.

[Komatik]

It's an amazing opportunity to play cool things instead of Lame-Because-LA0 things without being penalized and everyone is suggesting ungodly game breaking monstrosities ;_;

Just take those caster levels the honest way and don't abuse the best houserule ever, please.

I like the half-celestial suggestion.

[Garktz]

I.ll go with a solar or great wyrm dragon anyways.
Use alter form and fake being just a "powerful" human and level as if you were using a regular race
Hide this from your party and in that greater need moment, reveal your self and Bam! divine intervention.

[sideswipe]

since the argument is that LA and RHD dont matter to a charaters power and that ignoring them will not break the game, go ahead, break it, break it to its knees. planeshift straight out of the campaign and go kill bahamut or something with your epic level spellcasting at level 1.

when they complain say "point proved". and then say you have a serious character and he is not overpowered to the max and is a decent powerful build, something like a dragon, or a mix of template or something ECL less than 15 with not a lot of extra spellcasting.

just in the first 10 minutes show that you prove a point and then start the campaign.

[Vhaidara]

All races are level 1. They lose no ability and all races and classes are open except tome of battle

So, I'm surprised no one else has commented: All this BS is being allowed, but ToB is still out

In other news, I vote Ghost [Paragon Dragon with Epic Spellcasting] + infinite Evolved Undead.

[dascarletm]

To echo some others...

There have been a few character concepts I've personally wanted to try that just wouldn't work.

My biggest one is a half-fiend warlock. I've always wanted to do that, and I'm sure there has been something you have wanted to do as well. This is the perfect opportunity to just enjoy something, and as long as everyone doesn't go overboard the campaign might just be a blast.

Going the route of intentionally breaking the game is extremely rude. It's like you are doing a gift exchange with friends, and the person hosting it informs everyone that there is no minimum/maximum amount of money you can spend. You then decide that person is, "so incredibly naive and stupid for trusting people to 'play-nice' and not abuse this," so, going totally against the spirit of it all you go and purchase a 25 cent piece of gum.

It is basically saying I'm too abusive to be given any trust, and the only way you can play with me is if you run the game with an iron fist.

[skypse]

Race: Drider or Noble Drow
Templates: Mighty, Advanced, Giant, Undead (lich), Eternal.
You are indestructible from anything but a direct Deity act. Of course you cannot level up no matter what you do, but it would be interesting to be the most powerful being on the planet. In general combine Eternal with anything that gives you special abilities and SLAs and you are golden.

[Dramorake]

So Dragon seems to be the main thing everyone is jumping back too. So which Dragon races, which templates, and which class should I go along with it.

[prufock]

Ask the DM if he wants the characters to be broken. Then ask him if he realizes how easy it is to do so if we ignore RHD and LA and count all monsters as level 1.

[super dark33]

Ask the DM if he wants the characters to be broken. Then ask him if he realizes how easy it is to do so if we ignore RHD and LA and count all monsters as level 1.

Prismatic, Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm), Complete Arcane Pseudonatural, and pretty much anything else.

[Dramorake]

Ask the DM if he wants the characters to be broken. Then ask him if he realizes how easy it is to do so if we ignore RHD and LA and count all monsters as level 1.

We have already asked and explained how bad it can be. He wants us to try our best to be game breaking

[Vhaidara]

In other news, I vote Ghost [Paragon Dragon with Epic Spellcasting] + infinite Evolved Undead.

Make it a Great Wyrm Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon). Use Archivist for your class.

If you want to truly break the game, then also make it a Ghost and add an infinite number of the Evolved Undead Template from Libris Mortis. Every application (which can, explicitly, be infinite) adds 2 Cha, +1 Deflection bonus to AC, Fast Healing 3, and an SLA. Now, because you are a dragon, you cast as a sorcerer. Sorcerers get bonus spells and spell DCs from Cha. You have infinite Cha. Therefore, your save DCs are infinite, and you have infinite spells of each level per day. Oh, and as a ghost you get Cha to AC. Play LG and pick up 3 levels of Paladin for Cha to saves, and you have nearly impenetrable defenses (infinite AC and saves)

[LoyalPaladin]

All races are level 1. They lose no ability and all races and classes are open except tome of battle
I am still blown away that you can play a dragon, but you can't be a crusader... anyone else see something wrong here?!

[Vhaidara]

I am still blown away that you can play a dragon, but you can't be a crusader... anyone else see something wrong here?!

Yes. I commented on it above.

Actually, when I saw that last night, my session lost a good 5-10 minutes to laughter.

[thecrimsondawn]

Wait....DONT DO IT! ITS A TRAP!

I once heard a story a DM told me once

Dm said, make the strongest, most bad ass, lv 20 characters you can, all options available, double starting wealth.

So the players all did

Then the DM collected all the sheets and said "Great! Now make lv 10 characters that you will play"

http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/d/d0/Its_a_trap!.jpg

[Abithrios]

So, I'm surprised no one else has commented: All this BS is being allowed, but ToB is still out

In other news, I vote Ghost [Paragon Dragon with Epic Spellcasting] + infinite Evolved Undead.



I am still blown away that you can play a dragon, but you can't be a crusader... anyone else see something wrong here?!


Yes. I commented on it above.

Actually, when I saw that last night, my session lost a good 5-10 minutes to laughter.

To be fair, if they take this suggestion:


Make it a Great Wyrm Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon). Use Archivist for your class.


And use a level of crusader, your initiator level would be crazy.

Everyone knows that starting with 9th level maneuvers is way more broken than starting with 9th level spells.

[Eloel]

Everyone knows that starting with 9th level maneuvers is way more broken than starting with 9th level spells.

I see your sarcasm, but that depends on the spell list in question.

[Vhaidara]

I see your sarcasm, but that depends on the spell list in question.

I really don'y think it does. I don't think any spell list that reaches 9th level will blow any discipline out of the water. Because a discipline will do 1 thing. Because there's 1 ninth level maneuver on it.

[OldTrees1]

Wait....DONT DO IT! ITS A TRAP!

I once heard a story a DM told me once

Dm said, make the strongest, most bad ass, lv 20 characters you can, all options available, double starting wealth.

So the players all did

Then the DM collected all the sheets and said "Great! Now make lv 10 characters that you will play"

Rule #?: Never give the DM ideas.
:belkar:
Now I know what to do for my next campaign.

[Xerlith]

Okay, in all seriousness (heh, no way):
Make a Dvati. Now, templates:
First you want to take Dragonborn with the Wings aspect.
Then slap on the Mineral Warrior template.
Finally, take levels in Paladin but use the A-Game paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376).

Okay, so that's you cohort. Because you play a Planetar Angel. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm)

Immediately before rofl-stomping every challenge ever placed before you, remember to loudly and at length express your pain that you can't use Tome of Battle, because it'd allow you to break the game in half.

[SowZ]

Wait....DONT DO IT! ITS A TRAP!

I once heard a story a DM told me once

Dm said, make the strongest, most bad ass, lv 20 characters you can, all options available, double starting wealth.

So the players all did

Then the DM collected all the sheets and said "Great! Now make lv 10 characters that you will play"

http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/d/d0/Its_a_trap!.jpg

I presume the originals became the villains?

[Thealtruistorc]

All races are level 1. They lose no ability and all races and classes are open except tome of battle

This is why I don't trust any DM who insists on banning Tome of Battle.

[atemu1234]

This is why I don't trust any DM who insists on banning Tome of Battle.

Same, really.

[GreatDane]

I presume the originals became the villains?
I always wanted to DM a campaign for evil PCs with the prerequisite that characters must have some desire to rule the world. Play the campaign out to levels ~15-20, the characters take over, good times are had.

Next campaign, the players begin as low-level do-gooders in a world ruled by their former characters. The campaign's climax is an epic battle between the good and evil creations of the players.

[Vhaidara]

I always wanted to DM a campaign for evil PCs with the prerequisite that characters must have some desire to rule the world. Play the campaign out to levels ~15-20, the characters take over, good times are had.

Next campaign, the players begin as low-level do-gooders in a world ruled by their former characters. The campaign's climax is an epic battle between the good and evil creations of the players.

My uncle actually did something like that. He had a Play-by-e-mail game, an evil game, and a good game.
PBEM was set in year X
Evil was set in year X+10
Good was set in year X+20

It was kind of awkward when my dad made a clone of his character from the evil for the good (Crandel became Randal), and the backstory was actually that they were twins. Then found out they were 10 years apart.

[Chronos]

There is simply no way to do this that's balanced. Saying "Hey, just play that thing you've always wanted to play and don't try to break it" will still break it, because for one player, "that thing you've always wanted to play" will be a blue or a hobgoblin, while for another, it's going to be a half-dragon half-ogre. The game is going to be broken. The choice is just whether you want it to be a quick, painless death, or if you want it to be slow, tortuous, and drawn-out. The only merciful choice is to make the next best thing since Pun-Pun, and put it out of its misery immediately.

[Vhaidara]

There is simply no way to do this that's balanced. Saying "Hey, just play that thing you've always wanted to play and don't try to break it"

You seem to misunderstand. The OP was told to break it.

[thecrimsondawn]

I presume the originals became the villains?

Thats the gist of it :)

Never accept an offer that is too good to be true.
I honestly dont know if I could beat some of my builds

My assassin builds would one shot- or nearly one shot me before I knew they where there
My pally builds would save vs everything, so anything save a magic missile mage build, or a lightning mace build he would just laugh at.
My bard....well..... lets just say nobody would have the will (or ability) to fight anymore.
x_x

[danzibr]

I find this interesting. Your DM said he wants you have characters with game-breaking power, yet bans ToB.

Yeah, level 1 great wyrm with loads of templates, don't see how it gets much more broken than that. I mean like, that would trivialize the game.

[Abithrios]

Okay, in all seriousness (heh, no way):
Make a Dvati. Now, templates:
First you want to take Dragonborn with the Wings aspect.
Then slap on the Mineral Warrior template.
Finally, take levels in Paladin but use the A-Game paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376).

Okay, so that's you cohort. Because you play a Planetar Angel. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm)

Immediately before rofl-stomping every challenge ever placed before you, remember to loudly and at length express your pain that you can't use Tome of Battle, because it'd allow you to break the game in half.

I don't remember the exact details of dvati. Would it interact strangely with dragonborn? Also, isn't there something about mineral warriors not flying...

[OldTrees1]

I don't remember the exact details of dvati. Would it interact strangely with dragonborn? Also, isn't there something about mineral warriors not flying...

By RAW the benefits of Dvati and the Wings aspect would be removed/negated/overridden.

[goto124]

Why do DMs think ToB is 'broken'?

And what if we use ONLY Tomb of Battle! ...does that even work?

[Coidzor]

Rule #?: Never give the DM ideas.
:belkar:
Now I know what to do for my next campaign.

Don't do that, it's rude and wastes everyone's time.

[OldTrees1]

Don't do that, it's rude and wastes everyone's time.

I would of course adjust it and only use it on a group that would enjoy it. But that ought to go without saying right?

[Sacrieur]

Break the game then, show the DM how stupid he's being.

[Eldan]

There's stronger stuff (Spellweaver, Time Dragon), but how about a Phrenic Black Ethergaunt Evolved Ghost?

[JyP]

All races are level 1. They lose no ability and all races and classes are open except tome of battle
so means everyone start with 1 RHD or one classe level for those with 1 RHD right ?

=> means if we play a dragon, it is still in his egg ^^

[Vhaidara]

so means everyone start with 1 RHD or one classe level for those with 1 RHD right ?

=> means if we play a dragon, it is still in his egg ^^

Actually, no. Dragons are based purely on age, not HD. Yo can drain a great wyrm down to 1 HD, and it will still cast as an epic sorcerer.

[Xerlith]

By RAW the benefits of Dvati and the Wings aspect would be removed/negated/overridden.

Damn, that's true. Dragonborn overwrites double body. It's out then. Get Half-Dragon then, or something. Anything with a (preferably both) Strength and Con bonus. Constitution is the priority here.
Funnily enough, though, Mineral Warrior DOESN'T overwrite Dragonborn's flight - the Mineral Warrior LOSES its possessed ability to fly. Well, a 1lvl Dragonborn doesn't have any - they get it at 6th level, meaning, by RAW, those two never interact. Mineral Warrior only takes away what is there - but doesn't prevent from gaining flight later, which Dragonborn does.

[Platymus Pus]

Might I suggest monster of legend?
http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=4541354

[JyP]

Actually, no. Dragons are based purely on age, not HD. Yo can drain a great wyrm down to 1 HD, and it will still cast as an epic sorcerer.
As dramorake said, the DM wants builds starting from level 1.

what is not clear to me : do we start with all RHD or 1 RHD = 1 level ?


Experience for Monsters

A monster with more than one Hit Die, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its Hit Dice, class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (HD + level adjustment + class level).

with last hypothesis being 1 RHD = 1 level, creatures with more than 1 RHD will need to go through savage species class progression instead. Which is problematic for wyrmlings as they already have a lot of RHD whenever they hatch :smallbiggrin:

This also disqualifies multi-headed template alas - unless you are an ogre tainted by chaos with additionnal heads growing over time, savage progression rules style :smallsmile:

[Vhaidara]

As dramorake said, the DM wants builds starting from level 1.

what is not clear to me : do we start with all RHD or 1 RHD = 1 level ?



with last hypothesis being 1 RHD = 1 level, creatures with more than 1 RHD will need to go through savage species class progression instead. Which is problematic for wyrmlings as they already have a lot of RHD whenever they hatch :smallbiggrin:

This also disqualifies multi-headed template alas - unless you are an ogre tainted by chaos with additionnal heads growing over time, savage progression rules style :smallsmile:

Oh that's easy to deal with. Slap the petitioner template onto it. Drops you to 2 RHD, keeps everything else.

[JyP]

Oh that's easy to deal with. Slap the petitioner template onto it. Drops you to 2 RHD, keeps everything else.
This is a great idea :smallsmile: : a world where everyone is a petitioner, battles are swift and life is short :smallbiggrin: Call it Ysgard ! as you come back everyday to battle again...

But alas, you don't start at level one :smalleek:

[Studoku]

Might I suggest monster of legend?
http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=4541354
Troll of Legend. Take the Fire Subtype and Acid as one of your immunities.

[ShurikVch]

Oh that's easy to deal with. Slap the petitioner template onto it. Drops you to 2 RHD, keeps everything else. Note: petitioners will lose their (sp) and (su) abilities.
(Spellcasting, manifesting, meldshaping, and most of maneuvers will stay)


Troll of Legend. Take the Fire Subtype and Acid as one of your immunities. Fire Troll from Dragon Compendium may be lethally harmed only by Electricity. Fire damage actually speed up his regeneration

[unseenmage]

Start with badass humanoid shaped living thing, make an Effigy of it, Awaken Construct, make an Effigy of that, Awaken Construct, rinse and repeat for infinite Str.
Now kill the Awakened Construct, make an Undead out of that, apply Evolved Undead, rinse and repeat even more.

Ad ininitum.

More reasonably, you could just roll anything on the random creatures by ECL lists linked in my sig and play that with every template. The 'has every template' part kind of wins this fight vs whatever base creature you might find.

If the DM is allowing creatures that don't have listed level adjustments then the Deities and Demigods book plus the Epic Level Handbook are your friends. You could just play a deity.


Additionally, if the DM is truly ignoring ECL then you could just play any printed statblock, which includes epic NPCs, and get the class levels for free.

[Boci]

I would of course adjust it and only use it on a group that would enjoy it. But that ought to go without saying right?

Sadly no.

1.DMs sometimes don't properly consider what an awesome idea for them will be like to their players.

2. People can also be mistaken as to what others at their table will enjoy.


Personally I'm not sold on this idea. Maybe some groups would like it, but beyond the initial shock value it doesn't offer much. There's no emotion connection with the character beyond "hey, I made them" because I never got to roleplay them, so basically it "you design the villains, only I'm not telling, so please spend time on a background and personality you will never get to use". If a DM pulled that on me I would probably say "no, in this instance I do not giver you permission to use a character I made", mainly out of spite at the wasted time. Now if we had actually played those characters for a decent amount of time prior, and then he decided to make them the villains in the next game, then I would be on board.

[Coidzor]

I would of course adjust it and only use it on a group that would enjoy it.

Where on earth do you find players who enjoy fruitlessly spending an hour+, or more likely, research spread across several days, doing the necessary book-diving and number crunching to make a 20th level character before the first session only to find out they need to spend even more time at the first session making a 10th level character that's completely different in concept and execution from the 20th level one they just made? :smallconfused:


But that ought to go without saying right?

It ought to but it doesn't.

[Threadnaught]

There we no other rules other then no tome of battle. Idk why

Why?
Is Tome of Battle too broken for your DM?
Are the options in it too powerful?
Perhaps they think being able to use special powers all day, is too much?
Are they afraid that, with access to Tome of Battle, every encounter would be too easy?
Do they not own Tome of Battle? For the love of all that is sane, let this be the answer.


Evolved Half-Everything Great Wyrm Time Dracolich Swarmshifter Sorcerer.

The real power here comes from the Class Levels in Sorcerer, but the rather suboptimal choice of having every Template ever on a creature that can be anywhere in time and space, while being nearly impossible to kill is good for roleplaying and keeps the power level low. Allowing the DM to stay on top of things without ever having to resort to DM fiat. There is so much bull**** there, I wanted to use Blue text... BLUE! Eww.

[thecrimsondawn]

I think we are looking at this the wrong way

Maybe we should be trying to make the weakest character ever made :P
God knows the game will only last one day :D

[sideswipe]

Why?
Is Tome of Battle too broken for your DM?
Are the options in it too powerful?
Perhaps they think being able to use special powers all day, is too much?
Are they afraid that, with access to Tome of Battle, every encounter would be too easy?
Do they not own Tome of Battle? For the love of all that is sane, let this be the answer.


Evolved Half-Everything Great Wyrm Time Dracolich Swarmshifter Sorcerer.

The real power here comes from the Class Levels in Sorcerer, but the rather suboptimal choice of having every Template ever on a creature that can be anywhere in time and space, while being nearly impossible to kill is good for roleplaying and keeps the power level low. Allowing the DM to stay on top of things without ever having to resort to DM fiat. There is so much bull**** there, I wanted to use Blue text... BLUE! Eww.


it could be new DM syndrome of "i have never read tome of battle therefore please do not use it." i would happily accept that as a reason.

[OldTrees1]

Where on earth do you find players who enjoy fruitlessly spending an hour+, or more likely, research spread across several days, doing the necessary book-diving and number crunching to make a 20th level character before the first session only to find out they need to spend even more time at the first session making a 10th level character that's completely different in concept and execution from the 20th level one they just made? :smallconfused:

It ought to but it doesn't.

Well some forewarning goes a long way. It is easier if the instructions are: "Make 2 separate characters. One is 20th level(double WBL) and the other 10th level(normal WBL). Email me the 20th level character before the first session. Come ready to play the 10th level character."

As for what kind of players might enjoy it, if there is a player that likes building characters, likes to have a hand in shaping the world, and trusts someone else with representing their characters then they might be fine given some forewarning. As for those traits the first is common but not a majority, the second is a majority and the third is uncommon. Honestly this is similar to running an evil campaign and then using that campaign as the setting for a heroic campaign (Evil PCs->Important NPCs).

Yeah, regrettably it doesn't go without saying. However it ought to, and someday might go without saying. Until then...

[Eloel]

Well some forewarning goes a long way. It is easier if the instructions are: "Make 2 separate characters. One is 20th level(double WBL) and the other 10th level(normal WBL). Email me the 20th level character before the first session. Come ready to play the 10th level character."

That would be a dead giveaway though. I'd go with "make the same character at level 10, and your end build at level 20". Then I would use timetravel shenanigans to in the end make the players turn into BBEGs.

[Threadnaught]

it could be new DM syndrome of "i have never read tome of battle therefore please do not use it." i would happily accept that as a reason.

I hoped it would be assumed that ownership would be equated to having read it.

[Troacctid]

it could be new DM syndrome of "i have never read tome of battle therefore please do not use it." i would happily accept that as a reason.

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

[atemu1234]

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

Remember Hanlon's Razor, remember Hanlon's Razor...

[Abithrios]

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

We forget that there was a time before we had ToB in our lives...

[Coidzor]

I am honestly shocked that wasn't everyone's first conclusion.

Actually, I take that back, I'm not at all shocked. This is GITP.

How likely or plausible is it for a new DM to have every source or access to every source but Tome of Battle?

[sideswipe]

How likely or plausible is it for a new DM to have every source or access to every source but Tome of Battle?

hypothetically
how likely is it for a new DM who does not frequent here to have 20 books (which do not include ToB) and think he has every book except ToB so he says "anything goes".

i have been frequenting here for a long time and i still have no clue what some of the book abbreviations are, and still haven't read or even opened 30% of all the 3.0 and 3.5 books. and i have never touched pathfinder.

[Chronos]

Quoth ShurikVch:

Note: petitioners will lose their (sp) and (su) abilities.
(Spellcasting, manifesting, meldshaping, and most of maneuvers will stay)
Technically, manifesting is a (Sp) ability.

[AMX]

Just thinking out loud....


Be a demilich. A foot demilich.

Anything from the ELH is a good choice, actually, but steamrolling everything as a flying foot seems extra-ridiculous.

How about all of you play a different kind of demilich, then fly in formation pretending to be a single person?

[ShurikVch]

Technically, manifesting is a (Sp) ability. :smallconfused: Since when?
AFAIK, usually manifesting go unspecified, thus can't be (sp) or (su)

[thecrimsondawn]

Maybe he just has a phobia of Iron Heart Surge, and even the mention of the maneuver causes him to make a dc40 fear save check. :P

[Aliek]

Maybe the ToB ban was a gambit to see if anyone would raise an argument about it later on. Then he'll know who posted on D&D character optimization forums asking for help on breaking his game.

But seriously, you should check on the other players. If this campaign is to last at least a couple sessions, you wouldn't want to overshadow nor be overshadowed hard.

[Dramorake]

Maybe he just has a phobia of Iron Heart Surge, and even the mention of the maneuver causes him to make a dc40 fear save check. :P

Basically it was this, He has ToB didn't really say why it was banned but it is.

[Dramorake]

Maybe the ToB ban was a gambit to see if anyone would raise an argument about it later on. Then he'll know who posted on D&D character optimization forums asking for help on breaking his game.

But seriously, you should check on the other players. If this campaign is to last at least a couple sessions, you wouldn't want to overshadow nor be overshadowed hard.

Other player in it is also making a dragon, said something about making it a literal god? Another is debating on a race. And Idk about the rest.

[Dramorake]

so means everyone start with 1 RHD or one classe level for those with 1 RHD right ?

=> means if we play a dragon, it is still in his egg ^^

Just asked, how he explained it, I will have the normal RHD from whatever I take it will apply normally except into my ECL I guess.

[Dramorake]

Also the player who claims to make himself "god" said he is taking Concordant Dragon and Dragon ascendant.

[Dramorake]

Also I forgot to mention that at times we will be placed to,fight against each other randomly during the campaign. Not a fight to the death per say but, accidents happen and I wouldn't be surprised off they killed each other if they had the chance

[sideswipe]

Just asked, how he explained it, I will have the normal RHD from whatever I take it will apply normally except into my ECL I guess.

awesome so 50 RHD and 50 LA = ECL 1

so great worm time dragon with all the templates. and epic level spellcasting.

[Dramorake]

awesome so 50 RHD and 50 LA = ECL 1

so great worm time dragon with all the templates. and epic level spellcasting.

Is this going to be the best? Even with maybe fighting another Dragon in the party?

[Vhaidara]

Is this going to be the best? Even with maybe fighting another Dragon in the party?

Epic Spellcasting beats everything, because Epic Spellcasting essentially gives you a toolbox and says "Build whatever spell you want. Even if it does that."

Let me explain something to you: Nothing is relevant in your game. The level of BS that will be thrown around means that if the universe is not your bitch, you don't matter. And since the only people who matter are people who make the universe their bitch, all you need to do is shut them down.

Pretty sure you can make an Epic spell that makes it so that magic only works for you. The Spellcraft DC will be enormous, but then you add backlash damage (damage you take when you finish casting) until it is a 100% success. Then pick your method of immunity to death by damage, and cast the spell.

[unseenmage]

Is this going to be the best? Even with maybe fighting another Dragon in the party?

If the third party Monstrous Lycanthrope (http://greenronin.com/blog/2014/10/30/monster_week_monstrous_lycanth/) is allowed then probably not as the template lets you be an Everything-were-Everything.

Also Divine Salient Abilities that gods have are trumped by little else in the game.

If this DM is truly ignoring ECL and just having you start with 1RHD and whatever abilities a given statblock provides, there are stats for epic level NPCs that could be nice. I'm not sure how many of them have class levels that are actually worth more than an epic HD dragon though.

[gooddragon1]

I think we are looking at this the wrong way

Maybe we should be trying to make the weakest character ever made :P
God knows the game will only last one day :D

My elf gladiator can help here:

Race: Elf
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Ability Scores: Unimportant except for con... using point buy select it as an 8.
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft: Basket Weaving), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Baskets)
HP at first level: 4 (maximum on a d4) - 2 (constitution penalty) - 1 (frail, can go to 0) - 1 (quick, can go to 0) = 0
HP at each level thereafter: 1d4-4 (min result possible = 0)
Notes: And you thought toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness) was underpowered. This elf could not do a hard day's work to save his life.

[Eloel]

My elf gladiator can help here:

Race: Elf
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Ability Scores: Unimportant except for con... using point buy select it as an 8.
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft: Basket Weaving), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Baskets)
HP at first level: 4 (maximum on a d4) - 2 (constitution penalty) - 1 (frail, can go to 0) - 1 (quick, can go to 0) = 0
HP at each level thereafter: 1d4-4 (min result possible = 0)
Notes: And you thought toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness) was underpowered. This elf could not do a hard day's work to save his life.

You're jumping through way too many hoops. Just be Venerable.

[Sir Chuckles]

You're jumping through way too many hoops. Just be Venerable.
But that results in a potentially usable mental score. Also, it's because of the trait and flaw that it can be reduced to 0.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You're jumping through way too many hoops. Just be Venerable.

Why not both? That way you'll have a -5 hit point penalty from the 2 Constitution, -1 from Frail, and -1 from Quick. This is important, because it lets you take Toughness as a feat and still be at 0 hit points.

Why is that important? Because it's a feat that now does nothing. Which means we can drop Skill Focus: Basketweaving, so we can be even more useless. Otherwise we might be too effective if a basket-related situation comes up.

To deal with our mental scores...just max out Strength or Dexterity and leave everything else at 8. We'll have scores of 11 for our mental stats, but our Strength and Dex bonuses will be eaten by the Venerable penalties, and be relatively useless anyway due to our 0 hit points.

[Eloel]

But that results in a potentially usable mental score. Also, it's because of the trait and flaw that it can be reduced to 0.

Find a race with -Str, maybe Halfling. Start with 8 str, eat that -2, and be venerable. Congratulations, you're paralyzed for life.

[sideswipe]

Epic Spellcasting beats everything, because Epic Spellcasting essentially gives you a toolbox and says "Build whatever spell you want. Even if it does that."

i like the i win spell. only somatic components and a focus which is a finely crafted box with a big red button on it, inscribed with the words "i win"

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

My elf gladiator can help here:

Race: Elf
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Ability Scores: Unimportant except for con... using point buy select it as an 8.
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft: Basket Weaving), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Baskets)
HP at first level: 4 (maximum on a d4) - 2 (constitution penalty) - 1 (frail, can go to 0) - 1 (quick, can go to 0) = 0
HP at each level thereafter: 1d4-4 (min result possible = 0)
Notes: And you thought toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness) was underpowered. This elf could not do a hard day's work to save his life.

Alright...let's break this further.

Race: Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms)
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Age: Venerable
Starting Array (Elite Array): 12 Strength, 15 Dexterity, 8 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 13 Wisdom, 14 Charisma
Level 1 Array (Age + Racial) 0 Strength, 21 Dexterity, 2 Constitution, 13 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom, 15 Charisma

Level 1 Hit Points: 1d4 - 4 - 1 - 1 = 0 hit points.

Skills: Climb 4 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, Swim 4 ranks -- Useful. But we're paralyzed and constantly at 0 hit points, so...

Feats (2, because of the flaw): Skill Focus (Autohypnosis), Skill Focus (Psicraft) -- Interesting, there's no requirement to actually having ranks in a skill you take Skill Focus for. Both of these are [trained only], so we can't even use them.

[ShurikVch]

Just thinking out loud....



How about all of you play a different kind of demilich, then fly in formation pretending to be a single person? Undead Matryoshka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matryoshka_doll) party:
1. Brain in a Jar
2. Skeleton
3. Skulking Cyst
4. Forsaken Shell
5. Raiment


My elf gladiator can help here:

Race: Elf
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Ability Scores: Unimportant except for con... using point buy select it as an 8.
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft: Basket Weaving), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Baskets)
HP at first level: 4 (maximum on a d4) - 2 (constitution penalty) - 1 (frail, can go to 0) - 1 (quick, can go to 0) = 0
HP at each level thereafter: 1d4-4 (min result possible = 0)
Notes: And you thought toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness) was underpowered. This elf could not do a hard day's work to save his life.
Alright...let's break this further.

Race: Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms)
Class: Commoner
Flaws: Frail
Traits: Quick
Age: Venerable
Starting Array (Elite Array): 12 Strength, 15 Dexterity, 8 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 13 Wisdom, 14 Charisma
Level 1 Array (Age + Racial) 0 Strength, 21 Dexterity, 2 Constitution, 13 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom, 15 Charisma

Level 1 Hit Points: 1d4 - 4 - 1 - 1 = 0 hit points.

Skills: Climb 4 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, Swim 4 ranks -- Useful. But we're paralyzed and constantly at 0 hit points, so...

Feats (2, because of the flaw): Skill Focus (Autohypnosis), Skill Focus (Psicraft) -- Interesting, there's no requirement to actually having ranks in a skill you take Skill Focus for. Both of these are [trained only], so we can't even use them. Aren't penalty cupped at "still get at least 1"?
Otherwise, for example, Orc Half-Ogre Fighter will lose skillpoints, and some particularly frail spellcaster may die at levelup...

[Vhaidara]

Aren't penalty cupped at "still get at least 1"?
Otherwise, for example, Orc Half-Ogre Fighter will lose skillpoints, and some particularly frail spellcaster may die at levelup...

the Quick trait and Frail flaw explicitly allow HP gain to be reduced to 0