question about illision and spellcraft

[With a box]

1. if I see a wall, can I make a spellcraft check for if it made by a silent image?
2. can I use spellcraft when I get effected by a Phantasmal Killer before I roll will save, so I autosucceed on will save if I pass spellcraft check?
this use of spellcraft don't require any action after all..

[Grek]

Short answer: Yes to both. Long answers:
1. It's a DC 21 level check to identify that a wall was produced by a Silent Image spell. You cannot attempt this unless you already suspect the wall is created by magic, which in turn requires that you interact with it - giving you a save to disbelieve.
2. It's a DC 19 check to identify a spell as it is cast. This requires that you see the somatic or hear the verbal components, but if you can and you pass the check, then you know that they just cast Phantasmal Killer and get to automatically pass your disbelief save, as you know for a fact the phantasm isn't real.

[Senshi Akai]

2. It's a DC 19 check to identify a spell as it is cast. This requires that you see the somatic or hear the verbal components, but if you can and you pass the check, then you know that they just cast Phantasmal Killer and get to automatically pass your disbelief save, as you know for a fact the phantasm isn't real.

I disagree. Just because you know something isn't real, it doesn't make you fear it less. For example, I know needles are harmless if handled correct, but my brain always shut down in panic when I see one because of my phobia. As Phastasmal Killer is a fear and mind-affecting spell, I would rule the save is not automatically passed.

Unless, of course, that there are rules supporting your argument. Then, I stand corrected.

[atemu1234]

I disagree. Just because you know something isn't real, it doesn't make you fear it less. For example, I know needles are harmless if handled correct, but my brain always shut down in panic when I see one because of my phobia. As Phastasmal Killer is a fear and mind-affecting spell, I would rule the save is not automatically passed.

Unless, of course, that there are rules supporting your argument. Then, I stand corrected.

Insofar as I know, there aren't, so you probably don't.

[Grek]

Your lack of faith disappoints me, atemu. :P

The listed save is "Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text"

The text says, "The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage. If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack."

It's pretty clear from the text that the intent is disbelief = no damage.

The disbelief rules say, "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw." Knowing that someone created the terrifying killer about to kill you using a Phantasmal Killer spell is definitely proof that the killer isn't real - you just successfully identified it as an illusion.

[Duke of Urrel]

1. if I see a wall, can I make a spellcraft check for if it made by a silent image?
2. can I use spellcraft when I get effected by a Phantasmal Killer before I roll will save, so I autosucceed on will save if I pass spellcraft check?
this use of spellcraft don't require any action after all..

The answers to your questions depend entirely on how your dungeon master believes Spellcraft skill is used.

There are two ways to interpret what the sentence "No action required" means. One is to assume that a Spellcraft check works just like a saving throw. You make a saving throw automatically when you have a chance to react against some potentially harmful effect, and this never counts as an action. If Spellcraft works like this, then it's almost a free extra saving throw for everybody who has Spellcraft skill. The only difference is that it doesn't automatically succeed on a natural 20 and doesn't automatically fail on a natural 1.

But there's another way to interpret the sentence "No action required." There are other skills for which the SRD indicates that the action they represent or require is "None." However, in actual practice, you usually have to take some action in order to make a skill check. For example: Balance, Climb, Hide, Move Silently, Swim, and Tumble skill checks all usually represent no action at all. However, you often must take some action – usually a move action – in order to use these skills. The word "None" simply means that when you move and make one of these skill checks while you move, the skill check adds nothing to your action. But you still have to take the action in order to move!

One specific kind of saving throw also usually requires an action – even though it does not represent an action by itself – and that is the Will save that you make to disbelieve an illusion. This save usually requires you to take an action, because you must "study or interact with" the illusion. This is certainly true of an illusion created by the Silent Image spell, unless this image initiates interaction with you, so that you don't have to take an action to initiate interaction with it. For example, an illusory wall doesn't interact with you, so you have to take an action to study it before I'll let you make a Will save to disbelieve. But an illusory orc that moves to block your way interacts with you, so that you don't have to do anything to start this interaction yourself in order to make a Will save.

I believe you don't have to take any action to interact with the effect of the Phantasmal Killer spell (or the effect of any other illusion that resembles an aggressive creature), because it interacts with you. So it's clear that you always get a Will save to disbelieve the effect of the Phantasmal Killer spell. But can you make a Spellcraft check to avoid having to make a Will save at all?

If I were your dungeon master, my answer would be "Yes, but only if you readied an action to study the spellcaster's spellcasting action, just as if you were going to counterspell it." I believe identifying a spell while it is being cast requires no less study than this.

If you cannot identify a spell while it is being cast, you may still use Spellcraft to identify the spell behind an effect after it has been created. However, if I were your dungeon master, I would impose two requirements for this use of Spellcraft:

1. In most cases, I would require you to study the spell's effect by taking some action to do so. Mere interaction is not enough. After all, you are not using Spellcraft merely to determine whether an effect is real or illusory; you are using Spellcraft to identify the spell that was used to create the effect. So I believe I am justified in raising the bar a little. I don't require you to use any more than a move action to study a spell effect, but I don't let you do this reactively, without having to take any action at all.

2. I also require you to know that the effect you are studying is in fact a spell effect. If you have no idea that an effect was created by a spell, I reason that it simply won't occur to you to use Spellcraft to identify the spell. This rule of mine applies particularly to effects created by spells of the Illusion school – unless you see these effects being created by a spellcaster, in which case you know that they are spell effects and may use Spellcraft to study them. So if you don't see an illusion being created by a spellcaster, I don't allow you to use Spellcraft to identify the spell unless you make a Will save to disbelieve the illusion first.

Now, back to your question. If you saw a spellcaster cast the Phantasmal Killer spell, then I don't apply Rule Two above, but I do apply Rule One. Why? Because this spell is a Mind-Affecting spell belonging to the Phantasm subschool. When a spell is Mind-Affecting, I believe it may limit your ability to perform certain mental actions unless you manage to resist the spell's effect, and the only way I allow you to resist the spell's effect is to make a Will save against the spell. In other words, I believe there is no way for you to study the effect of the Phantasmal Killer spell using Spellcraft unless you first make a Will save against it. If your Will save fails, I think you're just too scared of the effect to study it properly.

One more thing. There's a third option for Spellcraft to be used to identify a spell besides (1) studying the action that is used to cast it or (2) studying the effect of the spell.

That third option (3) is this: "After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was." In contrast to the other uses of Spellcraft to identify a spell, I believe this use is like making a reactive Will save: No action is required, and no study is required. You'll notice that the DC for this particular use of Spellcraft is a little higher: 25 plus the spell's spell level. I think there's a good reason for that: You're making an instant judgement about a spell's effect rather than taking time to study it.

This brings me to my final point: Even when I consider the use of Spellcraft to be purely reactive, the rules allow you to make a Spellcraft check only after you roll your saving throw. In the case of a Mind-Affecting spell, I require this saving throw to succeed in order for you to make this Spellcraft check. Otherwise, I believe your mind is simply not free to do so.

These are my house rules, but I think they make sense, and I believe I am not the only dungeon master who rejects the notion that Spellcraft should behave like a free second saving throw available to all who possess this skill.

[Eloel]

2. It's a DC 19 check to identify a spell as it is cast. This requires that you see the somatic or hear the verbal components, but if you can and you pass the check, then you know that they just cast Phantasmal Killer and get to automatically pass your disbelief save, as you know for a fact the phantasm isn't real.

You know what the spell is. You don't know it's being cast on you - that may be someone else. There is no proof here.

[Grek]

You know what the spell is. You don't know it's being cast on you - that may be someone else. There is no proof here.

Yes, you do know that it is being cast on you. If you can see the effect of a casting of Phantasmal Killer, you are its target. This is because Phantasmal Killer is a phantasm and with phantasm spells only those who are targets of the spell can see the spell's effect.


But there's another way to interpret the sentence "No action required." There are other skills for which the SRD indicates that the action they represent or require is "None." However, in actual practice, you usually have to take some action in order to make a skill check. For example: Balance, Climb, Hide, Move Silently, Swim, and Tumble skill checks all usually represent no action at all. However, you often must take some action – usually a move action – in order to use these skills. The word "None" simply means that when you move and make one of these skill checks while you move, the skill check adds nothing to your action. But you still have to take the action in order to move!

"No action required." and "Action: None." are the same thing. Both refer to the "Not an Action" entry under Actions in Combat, which is used for things that are part of other actions, and reactions that happen on other people's turns. All of the skills you listed are "Action: None.", because they are made as part of a move action to move in a certain way. Skills that aren't about moving generally aren't done as part of a move action. They're just reactions that you get to take whenever the appropriate situation comes up, regardless of who's turn it is.

For example, the opposed Sense Motive check to detect someone bluffing is not an action and is not part of another action - you just do it whenever someone tries to bluff you. Likewise, Knowledge checks are "Action: Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.", Listen is "Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.", and Spot is "Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. To read lips, you must concentrate for a full minute before making a Spot check, and you can’t perform any other action (other than moving at up to half speed) during this minute."

I would argue that a Spellcraft check is more like a Knowledge check than it is like a Climb check, more like Spot than Hide, and more like Listen than Move Silently. It's reactive and perceptual, not movement-related. As such, it should not require a move action, except possibly by analogy to Spot and Listen, where for uses that aren't specifically listed as "No Retry" and no specific retry time is listed, you can retry your check as a move action - like when you're using Spellcraft alongside Read Magic or Detect Magic to identify things.

[lsfreak]

Yes, you do know that it is being cast on you. If you can see the effect of a casting of Phantasmal Killer, you are its target. This is because Phantasmal Killer is a phantasm and with phantasm spells only those who are targets of the spell can see the spell's effect.
But the rules for identifying based on effects require them to be "in place and in effect." Is an instantaneous-duration spell "in place and in effect" before it's over? ...or ever? And the rules for identifying a spell as it's being cast don't help because it doesn't tell you who it's being cast on.

I never rule you're allowed to use Spellcraft to completely circumvent illusions or enchantments. At best it gives a save with a bonus, but generally nothing.

[Deophaun]

I believe you don't have to take any action to interact with the effect of the Phantasmal Killer spell (or the effect of any other illusion that resembles an aggressive creature), because it interacts with you. So it's clear that you always get a Will save to disbelieve the effect of the Phantasmal Killer spell. But can you make a Spellcraft check to avoid having to make a Will save at all?
Yes, because that's how illusions work (or don't, as the case may be).

But the rules for identifying based on effects require them to be "in place and in effect." Is an instantaneous-duration spell "in place and in effect" before it's over? ...or ever? And the rules for identifying a spell as it's being cast don't help because it doesn't tell you who it's being cast on.
I take it in your games that characters also have no clue who the archer shot his arrow at.

[Segev]

Even if you know it's an illusion, until you've interacted with it and found it to be certainly unreal do you obviate the need for the save. If you're told explicitly that something is an illusion, you get a +4 to the Will save to disbelieve; that's about the most you can get from this Spellcraft check: it tells you, "He's casting Phantasmal Killer, so that thing you're about to see is an illusion."

Until you've interacted with it and it has proven intangible, you may intellectually understand that it's (probably) an illusion, but your mind is not necessarily ready to (dis)believe it. Your mind trusts your senses more than your intelligence, as a general rule. It's why optical illusions work even when you know what is really happening. Your mind asserts that the senses are more reliable than the hypothesis roiling around your consciousness.

The problem with Phantasmal Killer is that your very act of "interacting" with it is what provokes the two saves. You can't interact with it before you are required to make that Will save to disbelieve. Therefore, the best you can do is get a +4 to the save (which is still very nice; it's a 20% shift in your favor!).

[Deophaun]

Even if you know it's an illusion, until you've interacted with it and found it to be certainly unreal do you obviate the need for the save. If you're told explicitly that something is an illusion, you get a +4 to the Will save to disbelieve; that's about the most you can get from this Spellcraft check: it tells you, "He's casting Phantasmal Killer, so that thing you're about to see is an illusion."
Except the Spellcraft check isn't someone else telling you it's an illusion. The Spellcraft check is you knowing that it's phantasmal killer. That's as sure proof as proof is going to get.

Until you've interacted with it and it has proven intangible, you may intellectually understand that it's (probably) an illusion, but your mind is not necessarily ready to (dis)believe it.
There's nothing in the rules that support this. In fact, phantasmal killer says the opposite:

The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal.
Not "feel on an instinctual, primal level that the image is unreal," but merely "recognize."

[Frostthehero]

First, the easier question - number 2. This is an obvious no. Identifying the spell does nothing to negate its effect. Disbelief requires a will save, as is written in the text of the spell. RAW > RAI. Even if you don't accept this, consider the second part of phantasmal killer - "If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack." You created the effect, so we can assume that you know what it is, but you still have to disbelieve it.

The wait I interpret number 1, you do not know that the wall is illusory. Assuming that this is true, you cannot make a spellcraft check in order to know that it was produced by silent image, because according to the text of spellcraft, you must be able to detect the effects of a spell in order to identify it.

This game was built off of the concept of you can do what you are told you can do, not what you aren't told you can't. This is the way wizards has ruled time and time again. Neither spellcraft nor phantasmal killer mention identifying the spell as a way to save against it. If there is no evidence to support your side, you cannot do what you are trying to do.

[Deophaun]

This game was built off of the concept of you can do what you are told you can do, not what you aren't told you can't. This is the way wizards has ruled time and time again. Neither spellcraft nor phantasmal killer mention identifying the spell as a way to save against it. If there is no evidence to support your side, you cannot do what you are trying to do.
You don't have to save against an Illusion to avoid its effects. This is explicitly stated in the section regarding illusions:

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

[Frostthehero]

If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.

Consider also a spell turning effect.

Would you call being the caster of the spell proof?

EDIT: I would really like to see Flickerdart here.

[Troacctid]

Knowing on an intellectual level that it's only an illusion and it'll go away if you don't believe in it doesn't make it automatically not scary. You have to disbelieve it deep down in your heart too. Remember, if you can identify the spell, you know that it's not a just a harmless figment, and it can and will straight-up kill you instantly if it touches you. It's not a Silent Image, where even if you're scared, you can just close your eyes and ignore it and it will have absolutely no effect on you. Defeating a Phantasmal Killer means having the courage to face your fears--you need to be able to stare your worst nightmare in the eye, stand tall, and tell it you're not afraid. That takes more than knowledge, more than the party Wizard shouting at you that it's only an illusion--it takes willpower.

[Deophaun]

If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.

Consider also a spell turning effect.

Would you call being the caster of the spell proof?
It generally is. It wouldn't be the first time the game designers didn't understand their rule interactions. At best, the helm of telepathy is an exception to the proof-overrides-saves rule.

Knowing on an intellectual level that it's only an illusion and it'll go away if you don't believe in it doesn't make it automatically not scary. You have to disbelieve it deep down in your heart too
Considering that I have already quoted text from the phantasmal killer that counters this claim, it's rather rude to just assert it without providing rules text for support.

[Douglas]

I would rule that the spellcraft check (or being the caster in the case of a reflected spell) would at best grant a +4 on the save, equivalent to the "someone points it out" bonus. It is highly suspicious evidence, but not actual proof - there are other ways to explain the evidence. Highly unlikely ways, perhaps, but still valid.

[Deophaun]

I would rule that the spellcraft check (or being the caster in the case of a reflected spell) would at best grant a +4 on the save, equivalent to the "someone points it out" bonus. It is highly suspicious evidence, but not actual proof - there are other ways to explain the evidence. Highly unlikely ways, perhaps, but still valid.
There are more ways to actually fall through a solid floor in D&D than to make a Spellcraft check give a false reading, and falling through a solid floor is considered strong enough evidence to be considered proof.

[Eloel]

and falling through a solid floor is considered strong enough evidence to be considered proof.

Maybe it's an ethereal floor-monster whose manifestation ended when you were on it? Maybe it's why it's still up there, it manifested back?

[Troacctid]

It generally is. It wouldn't be the first time the game designers didn't understand their rule interactions. At best, the helm of telepathy is an exception to the proof-overrides-saves rule.

Considering that I have already quoted text from the phantasmal killer that counters this claim, it's rather rude to just assert it without providing rules text for support.

Proof that whatsisface over there just cast an illusion spell is not the same as proof that the monster standing behind you drooling on your shoulder is an illusion. You would probably say, "Aha! I bet this is only an illusion of my mother-in-law!" but that's still just an untested hypothesis, innit? You wouldn't have proof until the illusion did something your mother-in-law couldn't do, like walk through a wall, transform into a giant spider, or admit she's wrong.

[With a box]

I'd like to add another question to this
3. emeny caster cast major image of wall of iron, and you failed at will save.
so you think it is conjured, and use spellcarft check to what it is.
and your spellcraft roll is 25.
1. Can I know it is that the wall of iron is in fact just a effect of major image?
(DC 20 + spell level, Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell.)
OR (DC 20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.)
2. Is this means now I will disbelive the wall from now on?

[Grek]

No and no, respectively. As you've already (somehow) interacted with the fake Wall of Iron and failed your will save to disbelieve it, you have "failed to notice anything amiss" about it. Your Spellcraft check is not good enough to recognize a Wall of Iron spell when you see one, so you don't know what spell the illusion is an illusion of either - your best guess in this situation is "some sort of conjure an iron wall spell". That particular use of Spellcraft doesn't allow a retry, so you can't keep studying it until you figure out what spell it is. You could, if you have the time, study the wall in order to find out more about it, which would in turn give you another Disbelief roll. But you don't automatically succeed on that one either.

Essentially, if you make the Spellcraft check before your save, then your success gives you proof the illusion isn't real. If you succeed your Will save and then make a Spellcraft check, your results are based on the actual spell. If you fail your Will save and then make a Spellcraft check, your results are based on what the illusion appears to be, either telling you what spell it's supposed to look like (if the illusion is realistic enough for that and you rolled well enough to identify the spell it looks like) or telling you that you have no idea (if the illusion is unrealistic, not based on a real spell, or based on a spell you didn't roll well enough to recognize).