Wizard+Arcane Spellsurge: Ways to voluntarily increase casting time?

[Shin]

Hey,

I am looking for a way to, with the help of arcane spellsurge, be able to cast two spells a round - specifically "basic" standard action spells (which turn into a swift action, that's the problem. One hasn't got two swift actions to spend)

What I found is:

1 Alacritous Cogitation - the spell requires a full-rnd action to cast, but this feat is only usable once per day *sigh*

2 Extraordinary Spell Aim - nice feat, would even say I can take it for more reasons than just the arcane spellsurge problem. Sadly - the standard action spells I had in mine aren't area spells but personal range spells *sigh*

Are there any other ways (no prestige class abilities please! feats or spells are the way to go) to voluntarily force a spell to take longer to cast, so that it increases from a swift to a standard or full-rnd action in this case - ?

[meemaas]

Unless I'm much mistaken, Arcane Spellsurge is Sorcerer only, isn't it? If that's the case and you're playing one, I believe the standby is the Invisible Spell feat, as all metamagic increase the casting time of the spell for spontaneous casters such as Sorcerers.

[Shin]

Nah, I'm a wizard, that I forgot to mention! I think the spontaneous divination ACF counts for arcane spellsurge too - so no easy "invisible spell" solution, unfortunately.

[Strormer]

Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just use your move or standard action as a swift action and effectively get two swift actions in a turn? The only rule I know of that prevents this is you can still only cast one quickened spell in a round, regardless of how many swift actions you use that round.

EDIT: Actually, I just went back and re-read the spell. It seems to explicitly state that you cannot do the thing you are trying to do. Any shenanigans that might allow you to do so seem to be against RAI, even if they do meet mechanical needs to accomplish it. That said, I'ver never played in a game where you couldn't sacrifice your standard (at least) or your move to do a swift action, but I suppose that was just my DM allowing it.

[atemu1234]

Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just use your move or standard action as a swift action and effectively get two swift actions in a turn? The only rule I know of that prevents this is you can still only cast one quickened spell in a round, regardless of how many swift actions you use that round.

Nope; insofar as I know, the exact wording states that you may only take one swift action per round. Maybe you're thinking of a different sort of action?

[Strormer]

Nope; insofar as I know, the exact wording states that you may only take one swift action per round. Maybe you're thinking of a different sort of action?

Ah, yes. lol You caught me while I was editing my previous post. You are quite correct, as written.

[Zanos]

Uncanny Forethought will let you reserve int modifier spell slots per day to cast any spell you have in your spellbook as a full round action at -2 CL. Requires spell mastery, though.

Somewhat off topic, but I would never let a player sacrifice other actions (especially move actions) for more swifts. Swifts way too much power at higher levels to allow that.

[Hiro Quester]

You just need metamagic of some kind. Either a feat or a rod will do it.

Arcane spellsurge is pure win. I used it a lot with my bard/sublime chord.

With arcane spellsurge everything is quicker. Standard action spells become swift action spells, and spells that normally take a full round become standard actions.

A metamagiced (I used extend spell a lot for this) spell is normally a full round, so with arcane spellsurge it becomes a standard action. That's what you need. A rod or a feat will do it. (Not quicken, obviously)

So in a full turn you can cast a standard action spell as a swift action, move, and cast a metamagiced spell as a standard action.

So if you blast, you can cast an empowered disintegrate as a standard action, then immediately cast another disintegrate as a swift action, both in the same round.

As a bard/SC I tried hard to bust the action economy open. Arcane spellsurge was pure win. I persisted Harmonize, which lets you begin a bardic music as a move action. And I had melodic casting feat which enables to to cast while singing.

With arcane spellsurge, this meant I could cast a swift disintegrate at the main bad guy, sing inspire courage, and cast an extended haste spell, all on the first round of combat.

And then I had a belt of battle, for more actions.
And then a time stop if I really wanted to get crazy.
That was a fun character to play.

Edit:
Oh. Yeah. You can only have one swift action or immediate action per turn. So if you take an immediate action to interrupt before your turn, this uses up your swift action for your next turn.

With arcane SS up, you then cannot cast many of your spells next turn, because they have to be swift actions, unless slowed with metamagic. So be careful with immediate actions.

[Shin]

Oooh, I totally forgot about the awesome uncanny forethought feat, that'll absolutely do it! Thanks for reminding me of that, Zanos :smallwink:
But do the -2 CL mean that I can't cast, for example, a lvl 2 spell in an empty lvl 2 spell slot via uncanny forethought? Does it have to be a lvl 3 spell slot so the -2 CL don't push the spell to lower than minimum CL?

As far as I know (and I've never ever got word of a different ruling), you can convert a standard to a move but not a move to a standard or standard/move to a swift action.

Did change the topic name a little bit now, so that it gets more clear that I'm a wizard.
Hiro, in the double disintegrate case I'd use residual magic so the second spell gets empowered as well.
I'd only ever have to use an immediate action with this char - I guess - when I'm forced to use contingency, so no worries here. This char won't have abrupt jaunt.

[ezkajii]

do the -2 CL mean that I can't cast, for example, a lvl 2 spell in an empty lvl 2 spell slot via uncanny forethought? Does it have to be a lvl 3 spell slot so the -2 CL don't push the spell to lower than minimum CL?

The -2CL is just a reduction in your effective caster level and does not affect the level of the spell itself. As long as the resulting caster level meets the minimum your class would require to cast the spell (I believe CL5 for a 3rd-level wizard spell), you'll be just fine.

[Shin]

Ah, so the -2 is subtracted from the actual total CL (10 if I'm lvl 10, 11 if I'm lvl 11, and so on)
Does "practised spellcaster" work on that reduction (to negate it)?

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah. The -2cl just changes the DC for saves and the difficulty of dispelling the spell. It doesn't chNge the level of the spell.

On the other matter, you can convert a standard action to another move action. But nothing adds to swift actions. Except a belt of battle.

Residual metamagic...... I never thought about how that would work with arcane spellsurge. That's a potent combination to be able to double-empower two disintegrates in the same turn with a 8th and a 6th slot.

Of course, RAW, residual metamagic strictly says you cast the spell again in the next round with the free metamagic boost, not again inthe same round. But as RAI I'd interpret that as anytime until the next round.

[fishyfishyfishy]

You just need metamagic of some kind.


This is only the case for spontaneous casting. Wizards prepare metamagic ahead of time and are not subject to the increased casting time. Hence the problem the OP has.

By the way, how did you get Arcane Spellsurge as a Wizard?

[Zanos]

Yeah. The -2cl just changes the DC for saves and the difficulty of dispelling the spell. It doesn't chNge the level of the spell.

On the other matter, you can convert a standard action to another move action. But nothing adds to swift actions. Except a belt of battle.

Residual metamagic...... I never thought about how that would work with arcane spellsurge. That's a potent combination to be able to double-empower two disintegrates in the same turn with a 8th and a 6th slot.

Of course, RAW, residual metamagic strictly says you cast the spell again in the next round with the free metamagic boost, not again inthe same round. But as RAI I'd interpret that as anytime until the next round.
-2 CL shouldn't affect save DCs. It will probably prevent you from casting your highest level of spells unless you have some CL buffs, though. And it will affect your damage dice for disintegrate. And yeah, converting standard -> move is RAW. Other action conversions aren't allowed unless you have some wacky special ability, like the RKV ability to convert standards to swifts which was probably written incorrectly.

I really like uncanny forethought because it basically turns wizards from "batman" into "batman with the ability to summon any tool he has ever learned to used in six seconds." I never really thought about using it for spellsurge, but I guess it works. :smalltongue:



By the way, how did you get Arcane Spellsurge as a Wizard?
Not sure about the OP, but I know you can get any spell on a wizard with the Wyrm Wizard PrC.

[Hiro Quester]

This is only the case for spontaneous casting. Wizards prepare metamagic ahead of time and are not subject to the increased casting time. Hence the problem the OP has.

By the way, how did you get Arcane Spellsurge as a Wizard?

Oh. Okay. Forgot that prepared casters do metamagic differently. Metamagic rods also only make spells take a full round for spontaneous casters.

Making a touch attack must still be a standard action, though. Arcane SS makes magic fast, without making you faster. Cast spell1, then move in for a touch attack with spell 2? Or a ranged touch, which involves an attack roll, and so should take a standard action? Perhaps learn a good ray spell or two?

Arcane spellsurge is a wizard spell, too. And Wu Jen. Dragon magic p. 61.

[Hiro Quester]

-2 CL shouldn't affect save DCs. It will probably prevent you from casting your highest level of spells unless you have some CL buffs, though. And it will affect your damage dice for disintegrate.


Uncanny forethought just lets you cast any spell you know as a full round action, without preparing it, if you left a slot I filled.. This is indeed your ticket. But " for the purpose of the spell, your caster level is reduced by two"

So it does not at all affect which spells you can cast. It just reduces the DC and the dice damage.

But if you use the lingering metamagic, this will still give you close to double-empowered blasting. Prep disintegrate as an 8th level empowered spell and leave a sixth level slot free for its standard action echo.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Arcane spellsurge is a wizard spell, too. And Wu Jen. Dragon magic p. 61.

Huh...looks like you're correct. I was under the impression it was a sorcerer only spell. Hell I didn't realize that Wu Jen got any support outside the books it was printed in.

[ben-zayb]

Huh...looks like you're correct. I was under the impression it was a sorcerer only spell. Hell I didn't realize that Wu Jen got any support outside the books it was printed in.

You may be thinking of Arcane Fusion.

[Shin]

Well my plan currently is to go venerable elf sub domain wizard 5/unseen seer 5/incantatrix 10.
Persist arcane spellsurge.
Cast guidance of the avatar (swift) and uncanny forethought'd divine insight (standard/full-rnd) in turn 1.
Cast the spell you want to metamagic (swift) and apply metamagic effect (full-rnd) in turn 2. Profit.
Get versatile spellcaster (through the spontaneous divination ACF) to also use your lvl 1 spell slots for the 2 divine spells.
Optionally get sanctum spell as well to cast the divine spells with lvl 0 spell slots (here I pass).
Be somewhat relieved that I still get 4 metamagic feats through incantatrix - because quite a lot of feats to take otherwise, not much room for metamagic feats.
(item familiar got houseruled into uselessness and custom items / different boni stacking are a "thou shalt not!" case)

What still bugs me about this:
1) metamagic effect Int mod+3 times per day -> x2 the divine spells to cast (with uncanny forethought casting time increase for one of the two each time), uncanny forethought Int mod times per day. This means that I basically have to use uncanny forethought entirely for the 2 divine spells if I want to spend all daily metamagic effect uses no matter how high my Int gets. If I want to use uncanny forethought for actually casting spells I >want< to cast, I need 2 rnds of preparation for each metamagic'd spell. Bah.

2) I feel like I'm dedicating like 90% of my resources just to be able to apply metamagic effect.

[ben-zayb]

2) I feel like I'm dedicating like 90% of my resources just to be able to apply metamagic effect.
The point is that Metamagic Effect is all sorts of broken even without hardcore optimization, so if you want those juicy +4 or +6 level adjustments, you really have to earn it.

Anyway, why not just use a custom item with +20 or +30 competence bonus to Spellcraft. I think there's an existing rule for that.

[Shin]

Anyway, why not just use a custom item with +20 or +30 competence bonus to Spellcraft. I think there's an existing rule for that.

(item familiar got houseruled into uselessness and custom items / different boni stacking are a "thou shalt not!" case)

That is why :smalltongue:

[Zanos]

Uncanny forethought just lets you cast any spell you know as a full round action, without preparing it, if you left a slot I filled.. This is indeed your ticket. But " for the purpose of the spell, your caster level is reduced by two"

So it does not at all affect which spells you can cast. It just reduces the DC and the dice damage.

But if you use the lingering metamagic, this will still give you close to double-empowered blasting. Prep disintegrate as an 8th level empowered spell and leave a sixth level slot free for its standard action echo.
DC is a function of spell level, not caster level.

[Anthrowhale]

Alternate Source Spell (Dragon 325?) converts an arcane spell to divine making Arcane Surge not apply.

[Shin]

Alternate Source Spell (Dragon 325?) converts an arcane spell to divine making Arcane Surge not apply.

Nice, didn't think about that! Any ideas on how to be able to cast at least one divine spell besides of "take a dip into a divine caster class"? (Preferably not through another class or even a feat, maybe through an ACF or a spell, although if there's no such thing a feat is okay as well)

[Anthrowhale]

Nice, didn't think about that! Any ideas on how to be able to cast at least one divine spell besides of "take a dip into a divine caster class"? (Preferably not through another class or even a feat, maybe through an ACF or a spell, although if there's no such thing a feat is okay as well)

Imbue with Spell Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm)?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You could cast a spell with a casting time greater than a full-round action, like channeled pyroburst (PH2) for 2 rounds.

[Jack_Simth]

Nice, didn't think about that! Any ideas on how to be able to cast at least one divine spell besides of "take a dip into a divine caster class"? (Preferably not through another class or even a feat, maybe through an ACF or a spell, although if there's no such thing a feat is okay as well)
Well, there's Southern Magician (Races of Faerun), but it's human specific.

[Shin]

Imbue with spell ability wins, I get to use uncanny forethought for the spells that actually matter, and either a divine caster cohort or the group's favored soul can "permanently" lend me a 1st lvl divine spell. Fancy!

[squiggit]

And yeah, converting standard -> move is RAW. Other action conversions aren't allowed unless you have some wacky special ability, like the RKV ability to convert standards to swifts which was probably written incorrectly.

Definitely written incorrectly, as per RC you can ready a swift, so Standard - > Swift is already a native option

[ben-zayb]

Definitely written incorrectly, as per RC you can ready a swift, so Standard - > Swift is already a native option
I swear I saw that rule somewhere for readying swift actions. So it's in RC then? This should solve the OP's problem. Simply Ready your Swift Action spells in response to the next creature making any action.