diceless system

[JeenLeen]

Can anyone recommend a good diceless or nearly diceless system?

We're thinking of running a game based on the Worm (https://parahumans.wordpress.com/) series, and our usual DM is considering going diceless. But it's rather foreign territory for all us. I think we'd do better with some framework that's already tested than just trying it out on our own.

[Peebles]

The only diceless system I've had any experience is Dread. Essentially, every time your character tries to do something that has a chance of failure, you pull a jenga block out of a tower - if you knock the tower over then something goes horribly wrong, the monster appears, whatever. It's entertaining for a one shot, but I'm not sure whether it would fit with an extended campaign of any sort.

[Mutazoia]

Can anyone recommend a good diceless or nearly diceless system?

We're thinking of running a game based on the Worm (https://parahumans.wordpress.com/) series, and our usual DM is considering going diceless. But it's rather foreign territory for all us. I think we'd do better with some framework that's already tested than just trying it out on our own.

Well there is always the Amber Diceless RPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Diceless_Roleplaying_Game), and it's evolution Lords of Gossamer and Shadow (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/119779/Lords-of-Gossamer--Shadow-Diceless)

[Gritmonger]

Nobilis? 3rd edition allows some mundane attributes, and anything exaggerated can be modeled with gifts.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Amber, Lords, and Nobilis are all good ones to look into; they're about super-powerful beings exerting their influence over the world.

[Raimun]

Jenga tower as an action resolution tool in roleplaying games makes absolutely no sense.

And that's no matter how you look at it. It's equally absurd from gamist, simulationist and narrativist point of view.

[Eisenheim]

the tower makes perfect sense in dread, which is intended as a horror game with that genre's spiral to inevitable doom built in. You play a dread game in a one session, not a campaign, at least such is my understanding.

[Raimun]

So, instead of actually being invested in a game set in a fictional world, the suspense is instead built by... well, actually built by stacking a bunch of wooden blocks in real world and waiting for them to fall over, as the blocks are picked off one by one?

And no, using dice is not the same thing. Systems that use dice, take actual, in game and in setting context into account.
For example, if one is skilled in something one of the following applies:
1) Die result is modified by a set number (Like D&D Skill modifiers and Difficulty Classes)
2) Wider range of possible die results mean success (Most percentile systems)
3) You throw more (and/or bigger) dice and thus have more chances to succeed (Dice pool)
(Also, some contextual factors may increase or decrease your chances)

With diceless systems people take the in game and in setting context into account and based on that, they figure out if they can do something.

With jenga tower? The first action resolved with tower will succeed, unless the player removing the block has terribly shaky hands. About the 8th action (with average group) will fail, you can usually tell when it's about to happen. The only way to make this unpredictable (for other players at least) would be to suddenly but deliberately push the tower down when it's your turn to remove the block. Such an excercise may sound like a funny gimmick but (at least to me) it's really just absurd and ultimately boring when you realize things are resolved out of context of the setting your character inhabits. No matter what you, or anyone else does in game affect the outcome.

[Mutazoia]

the tower makes perfect sense in dread, which is intended as a horror game with that genre's spiral to inevitable doom built in. You play a dread game in a one session, not a campaign, at least such is my understanding.

Why wouldn't you just play Jenga and then play an RPG, rather than doing both at once...

[Yuki Akuma]

I'd like to also recommend Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine - it's essentially Nobilis 3e with a lower power scale and a better character progression mechanic.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'd like to also recommend Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine - it's essentially Nobilis 3e with a lower power scale and a better character progression mechanic.
Given what little I know of the Worm 'verse, "lower power scale" might not actually be desired. :smallsmile:

[Knaight]

So, instead of actually being invested in a game set in a fictional world, the suspense is instead built by... well, actually built by stacking a bunch of wooden blocks in real world and waiting for them to fall over, as the blocks are picked off one by one?

The suspense is built by both, in tandem with each other. One only draws from the tower in the context of an important decision, where there is the weight of risk against loss. As the tower grows less and less stable, the stakes get higher and higher, modeling the rise in tension of the horror genre and serving to support the exact same thing happening with the narrative. When the tower falls, a character is dead, and the tension cycle starts back up. Add on the mechanic where you just shove the tower over to have your character go out the way you want them to, and you've also got mechanics that push the game towards the occasional deliberate choice of dying in a blaze of glory.

Now sure, if you completely ignore being invested the suspense doesn't work. There's no opposition between the two options though; they aren't mutually exclusive; the tower exists explicitly as support for the other one.

[Terraoblivion]

Given what little I know of the Worm 'verse, "lower power scale" might not actually be desired. :smallsmile:

Well, in this case lower is pretty relative given that the default characters we're presented with include the literal sun, the god of evil, a mad scientist skilled enough to restart reality and build artificial morality, a kid who can rewrite reality in any way he wants once a week and a girl who can unmake anything she wants to. So it's not exactly like we're talking low-powered or even on the level of normal, high-powered fantasy. It's only lower powered compared to Nobilis.

Also, it is very good for the character side of things which is quite likely what's wanted here. It'd be my pick before Nobilis, at least.

[LibraryOgre]

Depending on what you're looking for, may I suggest ODE (http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2013/08/ode-one-deck-engine.html)?

[Yuki Akuma]

Given what little I know of the Worm 'verse, "lower power scale" might not actually be desired. :smallsmile:

A lower power scale compared to Nobilis. Nobilis is a game where a starting character can:

Grant themselves the strength of a bear, mental processing of a computer, etc. and perform mundane actions with perfect precision and timing, and completely beat any mortal in any mundane endeavor.
Create, summon or animate something related to a certain concept, such as Fire, Animals or Happiness, as well as make those things last forever, find out anything about those things, and communicate with them.
Make things more or less like those things (Fire, Animals, whatever), such as making something immortal by making it more like Hope (because Hope springs eternal).
Mark a treasured possession (or person) in a mystical way that allows them to possess, empower and summon its help from anywhere.

This is before even spending character points. This is the things you can do with every attribute at 0.

A starting Chuubo's character, meanwhile (assuming they're on the Miraculous scale), can only do one of those things, probably on a more restricted scale. But they can still, say, perfectly succeed at mundane tasks (if they're the Ace); shape an area they've claimed ownership over as if it were made of clay, instantaneously, as well as create minions to watch over it (if they're the Keeper of Gardens); destroy anything (if they're Accursed); declare that they did something ridiculous 'off screen' or summon anyone to their side (if they're a Creature of Fable), etc.

(This is assuming a default arc rating of 3 for starting miraculous characters.)

Even if you're starting at the mundane scale, you'll still have an Affliction, which is a Universal Truth about you like "I can't die" or "I must be the most beautiful person in the room" or "Insects do as I command" or whatever.

[SiuiS]

Jenga tower as an action resolution tool in roleplaying games makes absolutely no sense.

And that's no matter how you look at it. It's equally absurd from gamist, simulationist and narrativist point of view.

And yet it's surprisingly easy for people to correlate that dread to the in game build up and enjoy themselves immensely as if the tower weren't there or were entirely symbolic.

Try it before you knock it, y'know?

Also, GNS is sorta bunk, especially when used as some sort of prescriptionist thing.

[JeenLeen]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think, in the end, we're doing a homebrew system which will basically be "does it make sense? Then, yes it works", with some comparison of our stats (if in a straight-up fistfight, who is the better Brute), and a luck die for when things are really at chance.

I do want to try Dread sometime, though, and this has piqued my interest in Nobilis.

[Chambers]

Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm) may be worth checking out.

[Yuki Akuma]

Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm) may be worth checking out.

Oh God someone else suggested Risus and I forgot to?!

I... I feel dirty.

*goes to hug his Risus Excessively Deluxe Edition*