A Few Questions about Zweihander Sentinel

[Felyndiira]

Hello Playgrounders! I'm building a Zweihander Sentinel for a game soon; since I plan on taking the Martial Training I - V feats for Veiled Moon teleport spamming, I'll probably be pretty short on feats for a while (tempted towards using the human bonus feat for Skill Focus [Sense Motive] for Scarlet Throne, which would make it two feats remaining), and want to make sure that I understand how certain feats interact with the archetype before taking them. To that end, I was hoping that I could ask the playground a few questions.

My first question is - does Zweihander Training work with Shield Focus and, more importantly, Defensive Expertise? My assumption is that since you have a shield bonus, it would work just fine; I just wanted to confirm whether my assumptions are right. (Of course, I do need to take Shield Proficiency first, so a three feat chain might be a bit too much).

Also, if you have Zweihander training, and you put on an enchanted buckler with less overall defense, would you be able to apply the enchantment bonus from the buckler to reflex saves still?

I'm also wondering about how it would interact with Martial Power. Zweihander Sentinel seems to imply that the shield bonus would not count for anything other than shield bashes and maneuvers, so it sounds like you would need to wear a buckler (for an additional -1 to hit) if you want to get the 3-for-1 deal out of Martial Power. I wanted to confirm that this is the case as well.

Also, "Throwing Shell" mentions throwing your shield to deal shield bash damage from afar. Since your 2H weapon as a sentinel counts as a shield for maneuvers, does this mean you throw your weapon at the enemy instead? If so, I would love to carry around an unenchanted longsword just to use as a boomerang.

Finally, for a Zweihander Sentinel, would you still say that Martial Power is preferable to Power Attack (+ Furious Focus) like for normal Warders?

Many thanks, and sorry for having so many questions :).

[Dgrin]

I am not here to answer your questions but to suggest you entering the tradition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/the-wayward-path) which lets you swap any discipline available for Veiled Moon instead of wasting all your feats on it

EDIT: Actually, I will state my opinion on your questions


My first question is - does Zweihander Training work with Shield Focus and, more importantly, Defensive Expertise? My assumption is that since you have a shield bonus, it would work just fine; I just wanted to confirm whether my assumptions are right. (Of course, I do need to take Shield Proficiency first, so a three feat chain might be a bit too much).

I think that Shield Focus does not work cause it specifically mentions your shield while Defensive expertise works on shield bonus, so you can benefit from it


Also, if you have Zweihander training, and you put on an enchanted buckler with less overall defense, would you be able to apply the enchantment bonus from the buckler to reflex saves still?

Sure, why not?


I'm also wondering about how it would interact with Martial Power. Zweihander Sentinel seems to imply that the shield bonus would not count for anything other than shield bashes and maneuvers, so it sounds like you would need to wear a buckler (for an additional -1 to hit) if you want to get the 3-for-1 deal out of Martial Power. I wanted to confirm that this is the case as well.

I agree with that interpretation


"Throwing Shell" mentions throwing your shield to deal shield bash damage from afar. Since your 2H weapon as a sentinel counts as a shield for maneuvers, does this mean you throw your weapon at the enemy instead? If so, I would love to carry around an unenchanted longsword just to use as a boomerang.

I never actually noticed that but seems like your right here. I smell Bloodstorm Blade somewhere... :smalltongue:


Finally, for a Zweihander Sentinel, would you still say that Martial Power is preferable to Power Attack (+ Furious Focus) like for normal Warders?

I guess that depends on your playstyle and build. I'd actually prefer Power Attack

[Red Fel]

My first question is - does Zweihander Training work with Shield Focus and, more importantly, Defensive Expertise? My assumption is that since you have a shield bonus, it would work just fine; I just wanted to confirm whether my assumptions are right. (Of course, I do need to take Shield Proficiency first, so a three feat chain might be a bit too much).

By RAW, it's complicated. Zweihander Training is explicit in what they allow. Zweihander Training gives you a shield bonus equal to your Aegis bonus to your AC. Shield Focus increases the AC bonus of a shield that you are using. Your weapon is not a shield. Armament Shield allows your weapon to qualify as a shield for the purpose of shield bash or martial maneuvers requiring a shield; it does not allow it to count as a shield for other purposes, such as Shield Focus. However, Defensive Expertise does not require you to be using a shield; it simply lets you apply your shield bonus - which Zweihander Training explicitly grants you - to touch AC. So that part is fine. Note, however, that since you are not using a shield, you cannot apply your shield's enhancement bonus to Reflex saves.


Also, if you have Zweihander training, and you put on an enchanted buckler with less overall defense, would you be able to apply the enchantment bonus from the buckler to reflex saves still?

First off, you're not proficient with shields anymore. Zweihander Sentinel gives that up. That said, in theory, yes, by RAW, you can add its enhancement bonus to Reflex saves.


I'm also wondering about how it would interact with Martial Power. Zweihander Sentinel seems to imply that the shield bonus would not count for anything other than shield bashes and maneuvers, so it sounds like you would need to wear a buckler (for an additional -1 to hit) if you want to get the 3-for-1 deal out of Martial Power. I wanted to confirm that this is the case as well.

Again, a Zweihander Sentinel's weapon does not, by RAW, count as a shield for any purpose except for shield bashes and maneuvers. If you wanted to get 3-for-1, you would have to use a buckler.


Also, "Throwing Shell" mentions throwing your shield to deal shield bash damage from afar. Since your 2H weapon as a sentinel counts as a shield for maneuvers, does this mean you throw your weapon at the enemy instead? If so, I would love to carry around an unenchanted longsword just to use as a boomerang.

Correct. It would mean throwing your weapon.


Finally, for a Zweihander Sentinel, would you still say that Martial Power is preferable to Power Attack (+ Furious Focus) like for normal Warders?

Well, let's compare. Martial Power allows you, when making an attack or full attack, to gain temporary HP, moreso if using a shield, in exchange for a penalty. As a Warder generally, who expects to take damage even when not his turn, that's a valuable boost to be able to take, albeit slightly less so for the slightly-more-offensively-oriented Zweihander Sentinel than for the slightly-more-defensive Warder in general. You're still a defensive bulwark, either way, but Zweis give up a bit of defense for a bit of offense. Power Attack (and Furious Focus) allow you to instead take the penalty to increase your damage.

Personally, I think that Power Attack is what you should go for. Fact is, the big draw of the Zweihander Sentinel is to be able to two-hand a massive weapon, deal out bigger numbers, and still be an effective Warder. So emphasize it. You'll still be a good Warder without Martial Power, but you'll be a better Zwei with Power Attack + Furious Focus. It is worth noting, however, that, as Elric puts it, Martial Power makes you "harder to kill" without making you untouchable, and at high levels, can effectively negate 30 damage per round.

Of course, from my perspective, you can negate all damage per round if you've killed your opponent first. But that's me.

[Elricaltovilla]

Hello Playgrounders! I'm building a Zweihander Sentinel for a game soon; since I plan on taking the Martial Training I - V feats for Veiled Moon teleport spamming, I'll probably be pretty short on feats for a while (tempted towards using the human bonus feat for Skill Focus [Sense Motive] for Scarlet Throne, which would make it two feats remaining), and want to make sure that I understand how certain feats interact with the archetype before taking them. To that end, I was hoping that I could ask the playground a few questions.

My first question is - does Zweihander Training work with Shield Focus and, more importantly, Defensive Expertise? My assumption is that since you have a shield bonus, it would work just fine; I just wanted to confirm whether my assumptions are right. (Of course, I do need to take Shield Proficiency first, so a three feat chain might be a bit too much).

Also, if you have Zweihander training, and you put on an enchanted buckler with less overall defense, would you be able to apply the enchantment bonus from the buckler to reflex saves still?

I'm also wondering about how it would interact with Martial Power. Zweihander Sentinel seems to imply that the shield bonus would not count for anything other than shield bashes and maneuvers, so it sounds like you would need to wear a buckler (for an additional -1 to hit) if you want to get the 3-for-1 deal out of Martial Power. I wanted to confirm that this is the case as well.

Also, "Throwing Shell" mentions throwing your shield to deal shield bash damage from afar. Since your 2H weapon as a sentinel counts as a shield for maneuvers, does this mean you throw your weapon at the enemy instead? If so, I would love to carry around an unenchanted longsword just to use as a boomerang.

Finally, for a Zweihander Sentinel, would you still say that Martial Power is preferable to Power Attack (+ Furious Focus) like for normal Warders?

Many thanks, and sorry for having so many questions :).

Most of these have been answered pretty accurately, Red Fel gives a really good explanation of how those feats and abilities interact, so there isn't much else I can add.

I will give a little advice on tanking philosophy as it pertains to the Warder:

The base warder is a good, versatile tank with a bit of a jack of all trades feel to it. It has some marking, some area denial, and some BFC to keep enemies on lockdown and protect your allies. The basic Warder also benefits from the easiest time boosting its defenses.

The Dervish Defender is a marking machine. With more attacks than most other warders, better maneuverability and some very high starting defenses, the Dervish Defender is great at moving around and targeting key individuals to distract from their attacks. It suffers though from lower defenses and a more risky playstyle.

The Hawkguard is a Ranged Tank, obviously. Like the Dervish Defender, its very good at spreading around marks and hitting key targets to disrupt the enemy, but it has the benefit of not putting itself at nearly as much risk. The downside being that it is a bit more fragile than other Warders.

The Zweihander Sentinel emphasizes the Warder's ability to control an area. At first, this can be a little tough for the Zweihander Sentinel, as they don't really have a way to increase their reach (and thus their zone) until 5th level. But at 6th level, their zone of nope explodes. With the ability to expand their reach on counterattacks and attacks of opportunity, plus the increase in threatened area of the Defensive Focus, Warders go from a 5-10 ft. threatened area to a 15-20 ft. zone of death (even bigger with size increases). The Zweihander Sentinel doesn't need to move around as much as other warders, because their Defensive Focus covers such a large area and does the hard work for them. There are points both for and against power attack vs. martial power, but I've found that neither one is really necessary on a Zweihander Sentinel. Scarlet Throne and Primal Fury cover your damage needs easily, while Iron Tortoise is a potent damage mitigation tool especially when combined with the Zweihander Sentinel's increased defenses. I've been using mostly Iron Tortoise and Silver Crane on my Zweihander Sentinel and haven't had any trouble in the damage, durability or tanking departments and I've taken neither Power Attack nor Martial Power. I guess what I'm saying is that the Zweihander Sentinel is so good at its job and so easy to use that you have a lot of flexibility in your feat choices, look for something unusual that you think will help you instead.

[Felyndiira]

Many thanks for all the replies. It looks like Defensive Expertise is a wash for Zweihander Sentinel, since requiring three feats (with two completely dead prereqs - shield proficiency and shield focus) isn't worth it for shield AC to touch when I'll be feat-starved.

I'll probably shy away from Martial Focus as well. I understand the survivability aspect of it, though effectively halving my BAB somewhat hurts for a bit of temporary HP, and taking another -1 from a MW buckler will probably bring my hit rating down a bit too much for comfort.

I'm glad that the interaction with shield throwing maneuvers works exactly as expected, though. Throwing longswords is going to be fun :3.


I am not here to answer your questions but to suggest you entering the tradition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/the-wayward-path) which lets you swap any discipline available for Veiled Moon instead of wasting all your feats on it

Thanks :smallsmile:. I actually can't do that, though, since I'm already using martial traditions to swap out for Silver Crane. Since I'm going for a paladin-ish type of flavor, out of the two disciplines, I would much rather have silver crane before veiled moon.


Personally, I think that Power Attack is what you should go for. Fact is, the big draw of the Zweihander Sentinel is to be able to two-hand a massive weapon, deal out bigger numbers, and still be an effective Warder. So emphasize it. You'll still be a good Warder without Martial Power, but you'll be a better Zwei with Power Attack + Furious Focus. It is worth noting, however, that, as Elric puts it, Martial Power makes you "harder to kill" without making you untouchable, and at high levels, can effectively negate 30 damage per round.

Of course, from my perspective, you can negate all damage per round if you've killed your opponent first. But that's me.

I see. I'm starting to reach the same conclusion after seeing how Zweihander Sentinel interacts with the feats; since my strikes are usually just one hit (often hitting on Sense Motive), Zwei with power attack + furious focus is effectively free while Martial Power will eat considerably into my attack bonus at early levels, especially with the buckler penalty.

I think power attack is probably the best option. Thank you very much :smallsmile:.


The Zweihander Sentinel emphasizes the Warder's ability to control an area. At first, this can be a little tough for the Zweihander Sentinel, as they don't really have a way to increase their reach (and thus their zone) until 5th level. But at 6th level, their zone of nope explodes. With the ability to expand their reach on counterattacks and attacks of opportunity, plus the increase in threatened area of the Defensive Focus, Warders go from a 5-10 ft. threatened area to a 15-20 ft. zone of death (even bigger with size increases). The Zweihander Sentinel doesn't need to move around as much as other warders, because their Defensive Focus covers such a large area and does the hard work for them. There are points both for and against power attack vs. martial power, but I've found that neither one is really necessary on a Zweihander Sentinel. Scarlet Throne and Primal Fury cover your damage needs easily, while Iron Tortoise is a potent damage mitigation tool especially when combined with the Zweihander Sentinel's increased defenses. I've been using mostly Iron Tortoise and Silver Crane on my Zweihander Sentinel and haven't had any trouble in the damage, durability or tanking departments and I've taken neither Power Attack nor Martial Power. I guess what I'm saying is that the Zweihander Sentinel is so good at its job and so easy to use that you have a lot of flexibility in your feat choices, look for something unusual that you think will help you instead.
I've actually never viewed Zweihander Sentinel in this way before. When I first read it, I actually thought it was just a offensively-oriented Warder who sacrificed some Aegis range for two-handers and reach. It wasn't until I actually tried to build a character using it that I started seeing all the little things the archetype sacrifices by having a "quasi-shield" in place of an actual one...and what that extra 5' of reach meant.

I'm definitely going for unusual stuff with the majority of my feats. I think one of my character philosophies in 3.5/PF was always to build for versatility over raw damage or power (without sacrificing functionality too much, at least). The main reason that I'm spending 5 feats on Martial Training: Veiled Moon is to add that huge bag of tricks to my character above and beyond what Silver Crane already gives me. Plus, free Stealth as a class skill, and with my 9 skills/level I can pick that up very easily. The -2 ACP from armor will hurt before I get my Aegis up, but at least Stealth (unlike Sense Motive - either more expensive or requires custom crafts) is easy enough to boost with magic items.

I do want to be effective as a tank, though; one of the things I was always afraid of is that without Defensive Expertise/Martial Power I wouldn't be able to tank well enough. It's definitely a relief to know that a Zweihander Sentinel can function without either of them, since it opens up feats for stuff like Powerful Mark.

Thank you very much for the advice :smallsmile:.

[Elricaltovilla]

What are you planning on getting out of Veiled Moon that is worth putting half your feats into it? I mean, Veiled Moon is arguably the best utility discipline available, but I don't think that your return on investment is going to be that great. You're locking yourself out of a lot of choices for really good feats that could improve your tanking ability or your versatility in other ways. In return you're only getting a few maneuvers that progress at 1/2 IL, a crappy recovery mechanic, and a class skill that could have been picked up via trait. Martial Training is not for real initiators.

Instead, you could take Advanced Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Advanced-Study-Combat-) a couple times to nab the key stances or maneuvers you really want and it would cost you less than half the feats.

[Feint's End]

In return you're only getting a few maneuvers that progress at 1/2 IL, a crappy recovery mechanic, and a class skill that could have been picked up via trait. Martial Training is not for real initiators

This. Martial Training has its own initiation modifier (dex in your case), recovery method and readied maneuver. And all of those suck (especially because you likely don't have a high dex score). Don't use it.

The only thing I have to add is that technically you can have full IL with Martial Training if your initiation modifier is high enough (a dex based build can easily have full IL with veiled moon for example).

Edit: you can actually be part of both martial traditions you know? The Wayward Path has no real moral or code anyways making it an option for almost everyone. The only thing is that you have to write in your travelogue but that's not a problem morality wise.

So go ahead and take both traditions.

[Felyndiira]

What are you planning on getting out of Veiled Moon that is worth putting half your feats into it? I mean, Veiled Moon is arguably the best utility discipline available, but I don't think that your return on investment is going to be that great. You're locking yourself out of a lot of choices for really good feats that could improve your tanking ability or your versatility in other ways. In return you're only getting a few maneuvers that progress at 1/2 IL, a crappy recovery mechanic, and a class skill that could have been picked up via trait. Martial Training is not for real initiators.

Instead, you could take Advanced Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Advanced-Study-Combat-) a couple times to nab the key stances or maneuvers you really want and it would cost you less than half the feats.

The main thing I wanted out of Veiled Moon are the two stances, chiefly Stance of the Ether Gate. While it's almost certain that I won't use that stance in combat, having the ability to teleport without limit is something that I want primarily for out-of-combat purposes.

The other maneuvers that I will be taking from Veiled Moon are not IL dependent, and I actually consider the separate pool to be a good thing - since they won't have to compete with my main maneuvers for the readied slots. In combat, they will mostly serve as emergency buttons or clutch abilities, so I don't really mind having the recovery be a full action per maneuver. To actually fight stuff, Scarlet Throne's strikes should be adequate most of the time, and those are recoverable through my class mechanic. Stuff like the Umbra counters, Twisting Ether, and Fading Strike are all nice for other reasons. Ghost Walk has a lot of utility, as well.

I know that I can use the slots to take stand still or such, though that's still only going to give me versatility in-combat. Veiled Moon, on the other hand, would let me fly and teleport through the window in the duke's chambers and take some samples of his cooked ledgers favoring the local gang, escape from prison, or do a number of other things that free teleports would be handy for.

I guess my main concern is just under-optimization. If taking Martial Training: Veiled Moon would make me unable to perform my duties as a tank, then it would not be worth it. As long as I can still get people to attack me, survive, and deal enough damage, though, I see it as just a flavor thing.

Maybe it's because I played casters for too long, I guess =p.

EDIT: I apologize if I sounded like I was angry or implying that you're wrong, or anything like that. It's mostly just how I envisioned my character to be; I'm more than willing to compromise vision for practicality if not having certain feats will make me significantly under-perform. I guess I'm kinda weird like that.


Edit: you can actually be part of both martial traditions you know? The Wayward Path has no real moral or code anyways making it an option for almost everyone. The only thing is that you have to write in your travelogue but that's not a problem morality wise.

So go ahead and take both traditions.
I could, but that's going to start costing things that I actually want to keep. I'm okay with trading Primal Fury if I had Scarlet Throne, but losing Golden Lion or Iron Tortoise is going to actually be painful.

Also, the issue is that I don't actually want Veiled Moon taking up my primary readied maneuver slots. Veiled Moon is supposed to be a secondary utility; having it take up my warder readied slots would mean less readied maneuvers from the disciplines that I do want to use in combat. I'm actually happy to eat the recovery penalty for having them shunted into their own separate ready/recovery pool, and the IL doesn't matter much since the major Veiled Moon maneuvers that I want do not scale with IL or initiation stat.

[CGNefarious]

I don't know how far you've planned out your build, but I've found that with the maneuvers known requirements of higher level maneuvers/feats it's rather difficult if you try to focus on more than two disciplines at the same time, let alone all five you have access to. If you try to pick and choose across all five disciplines you won't be able to access higher level maneuvers. So you could safely trade away one of your disciplines for Veiled Moon and not be hurting your build at all.

[Fenryr]

Actually, it seems you need no buckler. Check 2). (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17749541&postcount=1062)